Baghdad's Sadr City goes to the great sheep give away

secured the country so people could move about safely

repaired the infrastructure

protected the anitquities and not just the oil fileds

not gone into Iraq in the first place.....

,...after "toppling Saddam".

BUT, INSTEAD,...they were busy trying to sell the "capital" (FUCK THE HUMAN BEINGS),...and,...they lost,...they also sold lives, countless lives, human lives,...

Yet,...they still keep on, keepin' on with their "marketing" (for profits).

May they burn from the inside out,...painfully,...for a long time,...just like that man who opened this horrifying Pandora's Box.

I :bounce: believe they will face their mirror,...in addition to the torn limbs/bones/flesh of all those innocents who would have hugged them,...before and after their human evil cruelty.

in solidarity with all of my carnivorous brethren.

They is an old saying, ten "Good Boy" are needed for every "Bad Boy" you do. Thus to win this war (and to do so we need to win the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqi people) our troops should be doing this ALL THE TIME. Get those people use to the idea that American bring GOOD THINGS than many of them will STOP opposing us. One God for every Bad things is NOT good enough, it has to be 10 Good for every bad.

Public Relations is important and can be expensive. When John D Rockefeller needed to improve his public image he started to give out dimes. Sounds stupid, but modernized it today's currency who would dislike someone who gave every poor person he meant a Dollar? (Inflation has eaten away the value of both the Dollar and the Dime). What would happen if every time an Iraqi meant an American the Iraqi would get a dollar? Our troops will be giving out more money than their are earning each day BUT IT WOULD BE WORTH IT TO WIN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF THE IRAQI PEOPLE.

The US has to do something, it can NOT just rely on Force. Even in Vietnam we tried to distribute food and make improvements in the Vietnamese Village (and this program was working till the funding for it was cut). If you read about how to suppress ANY Guerrilla army the first thing you have to do is start to separate the Guerrilla from its support base, the people. You separate the People from the Guerrillas by making the people like your troops more than the Guerrillas. You pave roads, you drill Wells, you improve Sanitation, you turn on the electricity. You spend money on things you will NEVER get a return from the investment on (Except in support from the people).

This is the problem with this administration, it is so Economic Right Wing the idea of doing things for free for the poor offends them, The idea that you HAVE to help the poor to get the Poor to support you violates their belief that "Free Enterprise" will solve ALL economic problems. This administration truly believes that if the Government stays out of the way, private companies will step in and solve the economic problems. The thought that the Military problem can only be solved with a good dose of Socialism is counter to their world view. Thus the mess we are in in Iraq.

How to solve the problem? Employ everyone, even if that means Government make work projects. Get the Electricity turned on if if that means the US Army has to do it (As opposed to private Enterprise). Provide basic Government Services including Housing, water and Sanitation. Do these things even if it means cuts in military expenditures. Once these things are done the US will start to win this war, but not as the US has been operating, hoping that "Free Enterprise" will come in and provide these same services.

Yes, the US has to make sure Iraq is given a good dose of Socialism, before this war can be won.

implemented? I recall seeing traffic cops and realizing it was make work for people because Bahgdad had traffic lights. And there was the oil for food program which Sadaam used to his great advantage and gave out food to everyone...everyone..even his former enemies! So as bad as it was it was better than it is now..

And I agree...WE NEED TO TAKE LESSONS FROM SADAAM ON HOW TO WIN HEARTS AND MINDS OF THE IRAQI PEOPLE...Just being protaganists is not working!! :crazy:

Machiavelli proposed a question, "Is it better for a Ruler to be loved or Feared". Machiavelli answer was it was best to be BOTH, but if you have to make a choice chose Fear. Machiavelli rationale for that decision is if no one fears you, than someone will sooner or later try to replace you. On the other hand if you are feared, the fear will prevent such attempts. Machiavelli also points out that once a Ruler who rules by fear is no longer feared, he will be quickly overthrown by Violence.

Machiavelli also points out a Ruler who is loved rarely finds Conspiracies against his rule. Not that such conspiracies do not occur, but given the exact of support to the Ruler, these almost always are revealed to the Ruler. At that point the "Loved" Ruler has to make people also fear him by punishing the traitors.

Thus every Ruler wants to rule by both fear and love. In the Case of Saddam he selected Fear FIRST, and than provided for his people so that they will "love" him. Was it a deep love? No, but Saddam never expected such love, but his people "loved" him in the sense he took care of them and in return the Iraqi People supported him. During the 1990s and the Sanctions Saddam made sure everyone was feed. Saddam provided as much electric power as he could. Saddam was able to blame any shortages on the embargo. In effect Saddam was on his way to being more "Loved" by the Iraqi People in the 1990s than he had been in the 1970s and 1980s for Saddam was doing his best for his people under very trying circumstances.

On the other hand he never reduced the power of his police to locate anybody organizing against him, thus he was feared and loved.

The US need to do the same, provide for basic services to the Iraqi people (We have no excuses given the US is NOT embargoed when it comes to Iraq). The US has to TRY to win the love of the Iraqi People. The Iraqi people are like a woman, you do not win her heart by slapping her around. You win her heart by providing for her. Every women out there know their man can beat them up anytime he wants to (The fear concept) but most women know their man will NOT and their man will provide for them (the love concept).

Saddam knew this, and Bush SHOULD know this, but his actions indicates he does not (Maybe the stories that Bush marriage to Laura was arranged are true. If Bush NEVER had to win the love of a Woman how can he understand how to win the love of a people).

hope for a better future. We CANNOT provide such security on our own, and the Iraqis have clearly shown that they are not up to helping in that basic task. This war is LOST, and has been lost from the time we debaathified the country, guaranteeing quagmire and eventual civil war. IMHO

This is the lesson of ALL Guerrillas Wars, once the people no longer support the Guerrillas, the Guerrillas will either lay down their arms OR be turned in by their own people. Thus to defeat a Guerrilla war you have to remember the fight is NOT Military but Political. You have to win the people to your side. Once you achieved that than the Guerrillas war will end. This is what happened in Cuba after the Bay of Pigs (The Anti-Castro forces had no support among the people so the various attempts to form Guerrillas against Castro failed). This is what happen to Ernesto "Che" Guevara in Bolivia in the 1960s, Che had no support among the Bolivian peasants and was turned in by the Bolivian Peasants. The Shinning Path Guerrillas had the same problem in Peru (Through some are still holding on), once the Peasants turned against the Guerrillas. th eGuerrillas were crushed (The places the Shinning Path has not been crushed are in areas where it still holds overwhelming support among the peasants). The same can be said of the Philippines after 1900, it was as the Americans provided services to the Rural peasants that the Peasants stopped supporting the Guerrillas and the Guerrillas positions were turned in and defeated.

Thus the issue is NOT military security but providing for the care of the people. To make the people of Iraq to want the Americans to stay. Yes, you do need to keep the Military in the Field to fight the Guerrillas and to finally Crush them, but you can NOT do that without the Support of the People. Thus any Guerrilla war ends up being a fight for the Hearts and Minds of the people. The Fight for the Hearts and Minds is the Fight was wins or losses a Guerrillas war. So far we have not even tried to fight for the Hearts and Minds of the Iraqi People and that why we are losing this war.

you can't provide any "care" for the people unless you can supply basic security. You can't provide any of the "feel good" aid without the basic assurance of survival. We can't do that with the small numbers we have, and there aren't any more coming. It's over, and has been from the time * went in on the cheap and trusted in faith based reality to supply us with flag waving Iraqis thankful for our Imperialism,in my opinion.

you divide Iraqi's into two groups - "people of Iraq" and "Guerrillas"

unfortunately - while there may have been "bad people" left over from Saddam's regime who stirred up trouble - NOW the reality is that the actions (and inactions) of the American military implementing the Bush "plan" have generated so much anger in the general population that now it is average Iraqi citizens rising up to kill the occupation forces. Our actions have created more anti-occupation sentiment, and fanned the flames of the resistance. We have CREATED more so-called "guerrillas" and i think a more appropriate term for them might be "freedom fighters".

they truly are fighting for the freedom of Iraq, something that will never happen under US rule. And the US will only allow Iraq to be truly free when all the oil is extracted...

while your idea of giving them something every time they meet americans is worthy, i don't agree with just giving them money...it'd be worth it to give them money, or useful items...(toiletries, food, etc.)

if we just gave them a dollar every time they met us, they'd get the idea that americans are "rich mercenaries" or "imperialist pigs"...the money isn't so important as the meaning or the generosity of it...

Which IS not what is happening now. The US Troops are HATED, and as an object of Hate will always have to act in defensive situations that will lead to violence that will produce more hate. This cycle of hate-Violence-Hate has to be STOPPED if the US intends to win this war. That was my point, to end the violence you have to end the hate, you can only end the hate if the American Troops start to be perceived as providers of good things not bad things. Giving away useful items instead of money way be a way to do it.

During the Berlin Blockade of 1948 it was found that shipping in high value goods that the Germans could use for Trade was more useful than shipping in coal (The high value but useful items could be traded on the black market for East German Coal). These items included things like sewing machines, hair brushes, toilettes, mirrors etc. The small little things that make life so much easier. This emphasis my point you have to give out things that people NEED not want you think their need. The switch from air lifting coal to air lifting fingernail cutters was slow for it took the US a while to figure out want the people of Berlin and East Germany really needed. Once the right mix was found the air lift shifted to those items. It was this shift that caused Stalin to stop the Blockage for even his troops were getting into the act of trading for the items being air lifted into Berlin.

I only pointed out giving away a Dollar for Iraq was and is a Dollar base economy and as such a Dollar can be "Traded" easier than other things in the US Army Supply change. Remember we do not want to our soldiers trading Guns, Ammunition or Explosives (The Iraqis have to much as it is) but items the Iraqi people NEED. The Iraqis are NOT primitive people who you can buy with some cheap beads, you need to give out USEFUL items, rights now the Dollar is the most useful.

It will never work - Iraqis aren't that stupid. A dollar is a trinket.

For a country of 25 million that is currently sitting on top of the second largest known oil reserves in the world, even hundred dollar bills are trinkets. Every Iraqi could be living large right now rather than taking a free sheep, or frozen chicken, here and there. I am talking country club life. The Iraqis know this too. Shame more Americans don't face the fact that the Iraqis ain't no dummies. They know once they get us out of there they all hit the lottery.

Don

of nausea... :puke: like some posters see Iraqis as primitive Untermenschen or something? Help me out here, Don.

...that others are just as ignorant as they are. It don't work that way.

Don

I was unable to avoid the first sentences of the next post. :puke:
:argh: No, it REALLY DON'T WORK THAT WAY!

(I stole most of this from http://web.utk.edu/~gwynne/maslow.HTM):

The Key to Marlow's Hierarchy is that people can ONLY think in "higher terms" if their basic needs are already meet. If those basic needs are NOT being meet, than basic needs will trump any higher aims. I will briefly going each type of need:

On the bottom of the list are people's Physiological Needs, (air, water, food, sleep, sex, etc.). Once they are alleviated, we may think about other things.

Second to the bottom of the list are the Safety Needs. Safety needs have to do with establishing stability and consistency in a chaotic world. These needs are mostly psychological in nature. We need the security of a home and family.

Third on the list are the "Love Needs". Humans have a desire to belong to groups: clubs, work groups, religious groups, family, gangs, etc. We need to feel loved (non-sexual) by others, to be accepted by others. We need to be needed.

Fourth on the list are Esteem Needs, There are two types of esteem needs. First is self-esteem which results from competence or mastery of a task. Second, there's the attention and recognition that comes from others. This is similar to the belongingness level, however, wanting admiration has to do with the need for power. People who have all of their lower needs satisfied, often drive very expensive cars because doing so raises their level of esteem. "Hey, look what I can afford-peon!"

On Top of the list are Self-Actualization needs, i.e. The "need is the desire to become more and more what one is, to become everything that one is capable of becoming." People who have everything can maximize their potential. They can seek knowledge, peace, esthetic experiences, self-fulfillment, oneness with God, etc. It is usually middle-class to upper-class students who take up environmental causes, join the Peace Corps, go off to a monastery, etc. (Most people on DU are at this level, and one of the reason some people in DU have a hard time understanding what is going on in Iraqi is they have NEVER lived in a situation where Physical, Safety or social needs had NOT been satisfied).

In Iraq the Physical Needs are being meet, but not the Safety or love needs. This is where the US has to fight this war, we have to provide the needed safety and love needs of the people. Once the US satisfies those needs, the US is in he position to withdraw those needs, thus gaining control over the people. This is what Saddam did, and what we should be doing.



See for more details
http://web.utk.edu/~gwynne/maslow.HTM

that a western political or philosophical template can simply be pasted over a people whose history L-O-N-G predates it makes me :puke:

All I am saying is the US can defeat this rebellion by buying off the people AND THAT IS THE ONLY WAY THE US WILL WIN. Part of that price is to give power to the Iraqis, part of that price is to give "things" to the Iraqi people so that every time they see an American they think "good things" will happen, not the bad things that have happened over the last year. The US will have to accommodate the locals, giving the locals say in how we spend their and our money on them. I am pointing out the PRICE that has to be paid and that Bush and Company has failed and are continuing to fail to pay it.

for such chimera. The "bad things" that have happened over the last year will NOT be forgiven in our lifetimes. You seem to view Iraqis as some sort of primitive people who can be easily bought with worthless shiny objects.

At the present time the US is FIGHTING the WRONG WAR on the WRONG BEACH. In the type of fight the US is in, you MUST get the people on your side. Whoever wins the people wins the war. So far the Guerrillas are winning the people and unless the US starts to "Fight" the Guerrillas will win. Now part of our dispute is more on has the US been in Iraq to long fighting the WRONG WAR on the WRONG BEACH for the US to CHANGE tactics to fight the Right War on the Right Beach. You believe that it is to late, I am merely pointing out that while the fight will be longer and harder than if the US had started to do the job right last year, the US can STILL WIN THIS WAR if it starts to fight correctly.

What does "win" mean to you? Amurika invaded Iraq for the purpose of controlling the resources and economy there and establishing a permanent
military presence. It is NOT a war, none was ever declared. It is an ILLEGAL INVASION. It is propped up by racism and genocide is being committed. WHAT "WIN?"

Notice How many countries declared war on the US for its illegal Invasion. Notice how many countries cut off diplomatic relations with the US over this invasion. A law without enforcement is a joke. Thus the fact that this invasion was illegal under International law is meaningless unless someone is willing to take a stand to oppose it. So far the only person to do so is bin Laden (His people are FIGHTING the US in IRAQ, I can not include the Iraqi people for they are responding to the invasion not sending a message to Bush that it is illegal).

Ye, the person who took down the Twin Towers is the ONLY person to make an effort to OPPOSE the US Invasion and Occupation of Iraq. Disgusting but true.

On the other hand Bush is NOT going to pull out, the US may be driven out, but Bush will NOT pull out. Given these unpleasant facts I have to make a Judgment call on how to resolve this conflict. My first choice is to withdraw, I do not think holding Iraq or holding onto its oil is worth the lives of American and Iraq people. The re-selection of Bush precludes a withdraw. Thus I have to address the issue of how to "defeat" the insurgents. You defeat them by separating the Fighters from their support among the Iraqi People. This is what Bush has failed to do and what I am addressing. Once you separate the Iraqi people from the Fighters, the Fighters will slowly either quit fighting or be captured or killed. Thus my point is HOW you have to defeat the fighters and that is what I have been discussing.

They is an old rule in business, Maximize your profits, if you can not do that than minimize your losses. Thus you either Withdraw (minimize your losses) or adopt a very socialist agenda for the Iraqi People (Which will permit the US to Steal the oil but the Iraqi people have to get PART of that oil). This is where the US is at at present, it has NOT been a question of legal or illegal invasion but how to resolve the fighting. The best option is to declare victory and withdraw, but Bush will NOT do that, that leaves the other option Socialize Iraq. My fear is that Bush does NOT want to do either and as such will doom this occupation to failure costing God's only knows how many lives.

running amok worldwide. Beyond your shores the danger America has become is recognized for what it is and alliances are forming. You obviously believe that your nation is secure in the driver's seat. Please stay tuned and for your own safety, fasten your seat belt. ;-)

One of the advantages of having the most powerful military in the World is you can dictate to the world, but that is only if the other side is willing to be dictated to. With the US military tied up in Iraq, Bush can NOT use it elsewhere, thus the US in Iraq gives a free hand to everyone else in the world. This is one of the problems when one relies on Military might, once it is in use you can NOT use it someplace else.

For example I once told someone the US lost the Vietnam War on the Suez Canal. He thought I was nuts, than I told him the Following:

1. During Easter 1972 the North Vietnamese launched a large scale attack on the South, it was defeated by the Introduction of American Planes to support the Army of The Republic (South) Vietnam (AVRN) AND the first use of the TOW anti-tank missiles when Americans used the weapons against North Vietnamese T-54 Tanks. This was the largest shipment of supplies to South Vietnam since the Vietnamization program started in 1969. It gave the South Vietnamese Army military Equipment the Regular US Army did not yet have.

2. The US Military had NOT yet made up the losses of Supplies when the Yom Kipper War of September 1973 started. The Yom Kipper war ended with a HUGE Air shipment of emergency Military Supplies to Israel (Including TOW Missiles) to help the Israelis defeat the attacks from the Egyptian Army. The Exact nature of the War is still classified, Egypt says it was winning when the Truce was entered, the Israelis says they had encircled the Egyptian Army and had cross the Suez Canal into Egypt proper when the Truce was agreed to. My Take, Both were right, the Israelis had encircled and cut off the Egyptians Army, but the Egyptian Army was still intake and Israel did NOT have the personal to destroy it (The losses on the part of Israel up to that point in the fighting was extremely high for its small population base, the losses to destroy the Egyptian 3rd Army would have been to much to Israel, it would have cost Israel the war).

3. One of the side affects of the Yom Kipper War was the Arab oil embargo. The Arabs had embargo oil after the 1956 War with Israel, the 1967 Six day war but till 1970 the US was a net EXPORTER of oil. Come 1970 the US was a net IMPORTER, by 1973 the US was importing about 10% of its oil from the Persian Gulf which meant the 1973 Oil Arab Embargo caused a drop in the supply of oil in the US of about 10%. This lead to a recession AND Congress realizing that the US has to plan to Invade the Persian Gulf to secure the oil if it was cut off again.

4. As part of the price of the Truce to end the Yom Kipper War the US agrees to ship military supplies to Israel. This continues till the end of 1974. At the same time President Ford adopts his "Whip Inflation NOW" (WIN) Campaign and it becomes a source of Humor as inflation escalates do to the increase in the cost of fuel and the excess debt the US had accumulated during the Vietnam War. While domestic expenditures increases (to defeat record high unemployment caused by the Recession) the US is also cutting all other expenditures to reduce the deficit so to reduce inflation (Also at record highs). You had stagflation, and Congress was trying to solve the problem. To defeat the Inflation attempts had to be made to reduce the deficit, while to defeat the high unemployment at that time the US had to increase domestic expenditures. Military expenditures had to increase to cover the costs of converting to an all volunteer army, and Congress had to supply military assistance to Israel given the recent Yom Kipper War. Something had to give, and Congress decided the the US could no longer support South Vietnam any where near what was needed to prevent the Viet Cong from taking over.

4. In the March 1975 the North Vietnamese launched another attack, 55 days later they march into Saigon (29-30 April 1975). The US does not provide any air cover as it had in 1972 not additional supplies as it had done in 1972. Congress had forbidden overflight of US Aircraft in South Eat Asia in the fall of 1974 which along with failing to fund the South Vietnamese Army meant nothing was going to stop the Viet Cong. Congress had decided that defeating American Inflation, defeating American Unemployment, providing for an ability to intervene in the Persian Gulf and to support Israel all had higher priority than South Vietnam and you can see this all came from the Israelis being thrown back from the Suez Canal in the opening days on the Yom Kipper War.

Thus the Egyptian attack during the Yom Kipper war that drove the Israelis from the Suez Canal lead directly to the fall of Vietnam two years later. WHY? Because the US had to make a decision of where to apply its military might. In 1974 Israel and the Persian Gulf was more important than Vietnam. The North Vietnamese was able to move because of the decision of the US to Support Israel (and to plan to intervene in the Persian Gulf). The same things is happening today, the US forces are tied up in Iraq, leaving everyone else relatively free to do as they please. For example the low intensity Conflict in Saudi Arabia is be caused by bin Laden for bin Laden knows the US is to tied up in Iraq to take on Arabia. Red China has made some nasty noise as to Taiwan for the same reason (Fear of lost of Trade with Japan and Taiwan has prevented the Red Chinese from attacking Taiwan more than any fear of US Military might). Who knows what is happening in North Korea (hopefully the CIA but I have my questions). As to Russia, Putin is slowly putting the Russian Bear back on top of the former Soviet States.

My point here is once the US military forces are committed, you can not use them to threaten someone else. Bush seems not to have realized that the most important function of a Military is as a threat more than the Military being used. Once the Military is used it starts to weaken, and you can use it no place else. The US military was stronger two years ago for the US Military was NOT committed to any long term fight. IT could have been sent anywhere to stop anyone. Thus everyone had to consider the US Military in any planning. Today, the same Military is committed to Iraq and as such a threat to no one else.

the purpose is to put as much of OUR Nation's money into the pockets of war-profiteers (halliburton, lockheed-martin, dyncorp, saic, etc) for as long as possible....which thrills reTHUGlicans, because the HUGE military costs are already strangling off what they HATE most: social programs and educational programs...and nobody cares, because PATRIOTISM trumps all....OUR troops lives are totally incidental to this money grab...and this is bush* war-on-the-cheap... so not too much armor and vests, which cut into the profits...

indeed, the war-profiteers are the SAME companies that did up Vietnam (for Vietnam, brown and root, which is now halliburton, the rest are the same)...Colin Powell is the SAME military general who ordered and covered up war crimes in Vietnam.....every step of the bush* war is the SAME as Vietnam, all the same mistakes...nobody cares about the bush* mistakes, because guess what: BILLIONS of DOLLARS are disappearing EVERYDAY into the pockets of the war-profiteers with NO QUESTIONS ASKED and no accounting needed (it's pentagoon stuff after all, and there's no oversight EVER done on that corruption....they all know it...that's why WAR is the tool, the key to a successful money grab of OUR money...and maybe a little bonus: THEIR oil, but that's not the purpose either)....

bush* wars will continue for many many years....there is no pressure, sadly, the "rah rah go troops cheer cheer" period seems to be flowing WAY LONGER than Vietnam did, so far, no one even considers burning ROTC buildings and our cities are relatively calm....Americans are still enthralled with bush* and his wars...cheers.....


sooooo, after years and years of this debacle (14 years for Vietnam)....there MAY be some pressure from the American People to CUT OFF THE MONEY to the war-profiteers...that's what ended the Vietnam quagmire...CONGRESS was forced to CHOKE OFF THE MONEY...and then it was a quick fleeing in helicopters and boats for our once proud American troops....nixon replacement PresidentGerald Ford thought the 'escape ladder' on our embassy roof was SO EXCITING, that he wanted it for his Presidential museum after Vietnam re-opened due to John Kerry's work....the ladder sits there with this glorious title: the Ladder to Freedom....our economy was in shambles after Vietnam, and jobs were very very scare, and OUR Treasury was LOOTED (the purpose)....


and this WILL happen in Iraq: which many reTHUGlicans still refuse to believe happened and present all kinds of dribble crap if you mention it...but the BOTTOM LINE was that the GREATEST MILITARY IN THE WORLD, the USA, with the MOST ADVANCED WEAPONS AND WEAPON SYSTEMS for that era, using CHEMICAL WARFARE, BIOLOGICAL WARFARE, NAPALM, burning their food and villages to the ground...the great USA...the BIGGEST AND HIGHEST COST MILITARY was HUMILIATED by a third-world country that had NO AirForce and NO Navy.....we were HUMILIATED AND DEFEATED... and at the end, we fled with our tails between our legs, with Americans punching their way onto the last helicopters and hanging for their lives on overloaded airlifts...it was embarrassing AND humiliating....

that is what will happen in Iraq, with perhaps some slight variations on the theme....but it's the same song...so far, every single step of the Iraqmire has been following the playbook from Vietnam.....it only makes sense if you realize: the purpose is not to win the war...the purpose to STEAL as much money from the American Treasury as possible, and put it into the pockets of the war-profitteers (like a huge money-laundering operation)...as long as those money-laundering operations continue...the tool that makes that happen (bush* wars) WILL continue....guaranteed....

don't be fooled by the bush* cabal sinister PHOTO-OPS of troops with Iraq children and handing out chickens and all that....it's sinister...those kinds of PR barf have been keeping Americans in that 'rah rah go troops rah rah' phase of the bush* wars....the photos are little events, not representative of anything in the reality of Iraq life, but VERY EFFECTIVE in keeping the cheers coming....for the war-profiteers that's a lesson from Vietnam....because as the economy tanked because of Vietnam, American cities went into ECONOMIC riots and looting (which were falsely painted as 'racial riots by those nig**rs') and ROTC buildings were burned on college campuses.....so far, bush* has been able to STEAL all the money, tanking OUR enconomy, with happy Iraqi pictures and stink-tank talk show lies on the economy...even the so-called 'protests' are more like easter day parades, with porta potties, and first aid tents and permits (a PERMIT for a PROTEST???) and all bushites orders are politely complied with right down to NOTIFYING them what you are doing and where you are doing it........people remain calm and very obedient and continue to sacrifice their own children as cannon-fodder to their beloved bush*...and that's VERY IMPORTANT to the war-profiteers, so their THEFT can continue unhindered....the war-profiteers are so thrilled with bush* wars, that they are have a HUGE coronation (money that COULD be used to provide armor and vests for OUR troops, but war-profiteers DON"T do that), and are in the process of the most amazingly decadent luxury parties in DC right now, in time of war CELEBRATE CELEBRATE !!!!! it's all about bush* successful theft of OUR money....that's how it all works...

Yes, this administration is giving grants and aid to its supporters you name, and the War is being fought to help them out, but the rationale Bush and Company are using is NOT that this is just to help they friends but this crew actually believes that taking over control of Iraqi Oil will help "American". Now they define "America" as themselves and their business cronies, but that the "stupid" part I mention in the heading. This crew believes that by helping the rich and powerful (themselves) they are helping the Country.

This is the problem, if it was conspiracy as soon as the members of the Conspiracy realized they are no longer making money they will drop out, they have not. Why have they not dropped out? Because to do so is to admit the above premise "What is good for Corporate America is Good for America" is NOT true. This crew is stupid enough to bankrupt themselves as they bankrupt the US. True conspirators quit while they are ahead and the Country will see them abandoning the sinking Ship of State and demand reform. True Believers keep on going even as the ship sinks around them and thus give the impression to many people that they know what they are doing.

This is my fear, these true believers of "What is good for Corporate America is Good for America" are in charge and will stay in charge till they destroy Corporate America and non-corporate America.

over $200 BILLION DOLLARS so far and NOBODY knows what it was spent on, there are no audits, no accountants, no oversight.....because WAR is the tool...and nobody is allowed to question the pentogoons spending of OUR $200 BILLION, it's all classified 'secret' and we can't see what they spent it on.....


hey, and the bushites 'LOOTING in broad daylight' is rapidly increasing to a much HIGHER level....bush* is going to spend several TRILLION dollars for a failed missile defense system....now that's WAR PROFITEERING taken to the next level....

it's much less complex than conspiracy...it's just THEFT....LOOTING, STEALING all OUR money, everybit that the war-profiteers can grab from OUR Treasury....it was the same for Vietnam...the money didn't run out for 14 years....today's was profiteers are expecting OUR money to last for even longer....there's still a lot in the U.S. Treasury, that's why they had to up it from grabbing BILLIONS to grabbing TRILLIONS (under the guise of the bush* failed missile defense project)....

Why has no one has questioned the accuracy of what you stated in your post?

I know why. Its because what you say is all true. Thats why.

Don

flattening a city, bombing indiscriminately, killing civilians, abusing & torturing prisoners, holding innocent men for no reason, raping, pillaging, starving, refusing to rebuild, going against the public sentiment, oh wait the WORLD'S sentiment, breaking Geneva conventions, The list is endless....this is a war that they will NEVER get the publics support on.

Sorry, it's too late.

Of course "we" means the people who are financially invested very heavily in this endeavor. Thats what no one wants to admit. How many times you heard some jerk say "war is good for the economy" lately?

Don

Remember we are talking about giving the Iraqi people reasons to love out troops NOT to win their vote to give us their oil. Yes, the Iraqis know the US wants their oil and their will prefer to keep their oil, but we are discussing the WAR not what happens to the oil.

Winning the War is the topic, to win the war we need the support of the Iraqi people. You will be surprise what people can be bought for, and more so when you realized that for most Iraqi the Oil was meaningless, it was going to the elites of Iraq not to them. What Saddam was giving to the people of Iraq was just enough to keep the people quiet. That is all the US need to do. Throw some bones to the poor starving dogs (the Iraqi People) and watch them fight over the bones while the US take the meat. The problem with Bush is he is NOT throwing the bones, do to his greed and incompetence he wants not only the meat but the bones of Iraqi Oil.

Remember we do NOT need the elites of Iraq, but the people. The people knows the oil is really not theirs and they will accept that if you give them something. Saddam gave them much more than we are giving them and could justify his restrictions based on the US Embargo. Thus the US has to give the Iraqi people more than Saddam did, but the US can still keep most of the meat. This was my point we have to give the Iraqi people SOMETHING while stealing their oil, it has to be more than Saddam gave them and that Failure to give the Iraqi People MORE than Saddam was giving them is where we are losing this war. Bush have to start spending money TODAY on upgrading the infrastructure of Iraq and giving each Iraqi some reason to accept American Occupation. If Bush does not this war will drag on and on till some disaster forces the US to pull out.

"insurgents" to take it down. The Sunni are never going to accept Shia majority rule, and the Kurds want their own country. This was just bad thinking and planning from the get go. There is no upside here. We were better off with Saddam. Maybe the Iraqis weren't, but we were.

Sooner or later the Rebels will quit. The biggest problem is what needs to be built to WIN the war are things that HELP the people, new sanitation, new sewers, new water lines, restoration of 24 hour electricity etc. Instead the US is concentrating on the oil infrastructure. An re-building that the Iraqis do NOT believe is helping them. Once we get the Iraqi people on out side (or at least neutral) than and only than can the US start to re-build the oil industry.

Thus the problem is this Administration is so concern about OIL it is losing the war to control the oil fields. This is why the US is losing this war and will continue to lose this war until it starts to fight (An d by fighting I mean building new sanitation, new sewers, new water lines, restoration of 24 hour electricity etc. This is the fight the US has to start to fight and the US is already over a year behind in that fight.

You are joking, ain't you? What makes you think they are going to quit? I am curious. You may know something I don't? And I do wish they would quit. We could use the oil. I just don't see it in the cards.

Don

Once the US Provides the Iraqi People a Better life then and only then will Support for the Rebels slowly die out. The issue for the Iraqi People is going to be does the cost of supporting the rebellion (i.e. destruction of the infrastructure built by the Americans), exceed the gain the Iraqi people would get if independent? If the answer is NO, than the rebellion will lose support and slowly die out.

Note this is based on the premise that the US REBUILDS Iraq. If the US does NOT rebuild Iraq than support for the war will continue. The problem for the US has been a reluctance to spend the money needed to win this war. Electric supply has DROPPED since the Invasion, Water and Sewerage systems have further deteriorated since the invasion. Homes have been destroyed, more and more people are without a Job. If this continues the US will continue to lose this war.

My point here is to show that the US can win this war, but it has to start "Fighting". The "fight" to win this war can NOT be fought by Tanks but must be fought by construction equipment. We have to give the Iraqi people SOMETHING. That Something has to be MORE than what they had under Saddam. The Failure of the US to give the Iraqi people at least what they had under Saddam is why the US is losing this war and the US will continue to lose this war until the US starts to do so. If the US can NOT (for any reason) than the US should pull out for the US will sooner or later be driven out.

To paraphrase Frederick the Great on the American Revolution "You can NOT rule a people 4000 miles away without their permission". The same with Iraq, the US can rule Iraq but only with the Permission of the Iraqi people, that permission can be granted PROVIDED the US pays for it. The problem for the US has that this administration has FAILED to pay the Iraqi people for the right to steal their oil. Bush and Company are to cheap and it is costing to much American and Iraqi lives.

...their lives like heaven on earth. Its been proved. That part is a gimme. The problem here is that you have a Sunni minority who used to hold all the good jobs and important positions in the government and will never have it as they did before when the Shiite majority takes over. They know this. What we going to give the Sunnis that will pacify them? A sheep? Shit. They want it like they had it before. Can't say I blame them. Then you have outside influence from everywhere who are worried about a future huge US military base known as Iraq next door to them. What do we give them? Do you see the complexities we are dealing with here? This ain't no classroom project where all the variables are known in advance. This is a fluid and deadly bear trap (for lack of a better term) we are ensnared in. If there is anything you can count on here, it is that you had better not count on anything going according to plan.

Don

We spend tens of millions of dollars rebuilding a building or oil pipeline, and the insurgency spends a few hundred to a few thousand dollars to blow it all up. The only way we could afford to pay for the reconstruction is through sales of Iraqi oil, but the insurgents are intelligent enough to know to blow these up at every possible chance. We can't protect them because they stretch for thousands of miles throughout the country. With that kind of resource management, the insurgency can simply sit back, conduct a few well-targetted attacks per month, and simply bleed us dry until WE are the ones who quit.

There's nothing more inimical to the way Bushoilini minds work than this. The "Revealed Truth" of the Bushoilini Regime is that enriching the already rich and powerful "trickles down" to the poor. They're insane, of course.

Bush does not even know HOW to fight this war. Reminds me of the old quote from General General Stillwell on Generalissimo Chiang Kai Shek. I am paraphrase General Stillwell "One can not fight something one does not understand, and Chiang Kai Shek does NOT understand the idea and thus can not fight the idea". Stillwell was writing about the Communists and that Chiang Kai Shek was going to lose the upcoming Chinese Civil War.

The same with Bush and Company, they can NOT understand the idea that you HAVE to get the people on your side and cut throat Capitalism is NOT how to do it. These Neo-conservatives do not even want to accept the idea that they MUST share their wealth with the people of Iraq. As long as that is the case the US in Iraq is going to go the way of Chiang Kai Shek in China, slowly being driven out.

what's going on in Iraq, I think of how I would feel if the same thing was happening here.

I would just want them to leave. If desperate I'd probobly accept things for my family to survive but I would still hate the occupiers and want them to go.

Iraqis will accept the handouts but they will still resent the Occupiers of their country. After what the U.S. did to Falluja most Iraqis that are not collaberators will harbor a deep resentment toward the U.S. Govt. Those that presume that Iraqis don't know what colonialism are fools.

We first went through the, "we gave the Iraqi freedom phase", then we went through the "throwing the baby out with the bath water" phase, then we went through the "we know better" phase, then we went through the "they will only listen to guns" phase. We are now in the "polishing of a turd" phase.
The next phase will be the "look how good they are living phase" (Putting the best face on a colossal failure) , this will be followed by "we don't give a fuck anymore" phase, then on to the last phase, "we were wrong and are now getting the fuck out."

In Somalia, I witnessed several food riots similar to this incident.

Iraq was better of with Saddam.

The U.N. and we controlled the North and the South before this mess, and the middle was "stable". Now we've got over 10,000 killed and wounded U.S. soldiers. For nothing.

"Yay, I have a sheep, but no electricity or running water or heat or security from bullets or bombs! Yay! Oh life is good!"

:eyes:

then offer them chocolate! brilliant!

Has been for awhile. There won't be a secular free-market in Iraq with permanent US military bases and an Iraqi government which bows down to Israel.

The Sunni Arabs, Shia Arabs, and Kurds are starting the civil war already. US soldiers are simply a tool to be manipulated to fight in this civil war.

Not if the U.S. were willing to be chocked off from the oil.

Why was Iraq invaded?

Because of three things:

1) Iraq being cleared of WMD by the UNMOVIC/UNSCOM meant Desert Storm (when Saddam went off the reservation) was over and sanctions had to be lifted.

2) Iraq had European contracts for their oil.

3) Iraq was going to trade the oil in Euros not petrodollars.

"Remember, Bush/Saud are the same thing. BDM/Vinnel (Carlyle at the time) arm, train, equip man what keeps Saud in power. Saudi crude funds the whole Bush/Saud crew. Iraq suddenly free again to sell its oil, and in Euros not only screws Bush/Saud, but would cripple the US economy along multiple fracture lines.

First and obviously, having the 2nd largest oil reserve of accessible crude come onto the market will drive the value of Saudi crude into the basement. That Iraq would end run the rest of OPEC to make up for a decade of being starved would scatter the cartel members into the winds to fend for themselves. So what is better, to let Iraq crude take out your own operation at the knees or take it over and roll it into the same portfolio.

Second, because Iraq was gonna devalue your own assets in the first place, doing so outside our traditional partner firms and with European (French, Russian, German) firms visions of Chinnese orders means you are not getting a swing at that crude even in the rest of the chain.

Third, and most critical (and actually more "forgivable" in a strange circumpolar way) is that trading in Euros not petrodollars collapse our capital market funding of our debt and deficits, both Governmental budget and general economic. If China (as its demand for oil goes through the roof in the next 10 years) starts trading with Iraq, and the Euro becomes the currency for oil (not to mention it is already on the edge of surpassing the dollar for capital markets anyway base don value as it is) suddenly China has no need to continue to buy our debt. It would get more of a return in Euros, plus it buys oil form Iraq in Euros."

Christian Parenti

full of chicken and sheep just before they go off to work.