Iraq is George Bush's Vietnam: US Senator Kennedy

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050116/pl_afp/usiraqkennedy&cid=1521&ncid=1480

WASHINGTON (AFP) - America's ongoing military entanglement in Iraq (news - web sites) has become President George Bush (news - web sites)'s Vietnam, US Senator Edward Kennedy, a leading member of the opposition Democratic party, said.


The harsh words refer to the US role and ultimate defeat in the 1964-1975 Vietnam war.

Iraq is "clearly is George Bush's Vietnam," said Kennedy, speaking on CBS's "Face The Nation" program.


Kennedy then blasted Bush's claim in an interview in Sunday's Washington Post that his Iraq policy was endorsed by the US public because of his November 2004 re-election victory.


"I think that's ridiculous," said Kennedy. He quickly referred to the 1964 elections, when Democrat Lyndon Johnson, who had increased US military involvement in Vietnam, defeated Republican Barry Goldwater by an overwhelming majority.

~snip~

According to Kennedy, Iraq "is a disaster because it's the a result of blunder after blunder after blunder. And it is George Bush's Vietnam," he insisted.



Go Teddy Go!! :bounce:

Thanks Dianne, Hillary, Kerry, GET A SPINE!

Keep it up Mr. Kennedy!!!! :toast:

Comparing Iraq to Nam is a stretch. Iraq is a huge mess, and certainly we never should have gone there. But Vietnam was a far grimmer story, where we blundered even worse, joining the French in continuing 1rst world oppression of a 3rd world country in defiance of history. 58,000 kids paid the ultimate price. Iraq at the onset welcomed us as liberators, or most of the country did, which was NEVER the case in Vietnam. Had we simply killed Hussein and left, we would have been thanked profusely. Had we preserved basic services or promoted peace, genuine peace, we would have been thanked. We did neither, and the kids we have there are paying a terrible price. We need to accept we have royally screwed up, and depart, but we won't until thousands more kids have died. What a mess!

we were involved in combat in Vietnam for nearly 20 years. I think it's far too soon to dismiss the comparison.

it is too early to compare, in my opinion, but if we did, the comparison would be negative. In Vietnam Ho Chi Minh was essentially first and foremost a freedom fighter over a communist. He was viewed that way by the majority of the people. Hussein was a monster, viewed that way by most of the people -- only his own family, and those Sunni Muslims who directly benefited from his insanity viewed him in a positive light. In Vietnam, we were rowing against the tide of history. Even our own hawks acknowledged that short of nuking the country into radioactive glass we could not win the war without committing over a million men. Even in the south, we had the bulk of the populace against us. In Iraq the majority of the Shia and Kurds are against the current terrorists. Our problems come from our link to Israel -- thus damning us in the eyes of virtually all Muslims -- and our completely inept way of handling the aftermath of an invasion which was totally unnecessary, rather than any intense feeling of loyalty towards the former regime on the part of the average Iraqi, except perhaps some of the Sunni elite.

Remember Saddam got 100% of the votes before the war?

It's happening right here, right now - maybe someone should invade us and bring us "democracy"? It's not 100% - yet, but we're sure moving in that direction.

unjust, unnecessary wars.

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This war not only involves the neoCONimperialists greedy grab for global power (via oil), it also involves a fight between advocates for HUMAN WORTH versus those who seek absolute power over human worth.

French were kicked out and then we went in to show the chicken French how it is done.

And then the Vietnam people showed us how it was done.

Thousands of lives lost over natural resources.

IMHO

180

The error, then and now, is not recognizing that the young men (and women) sent off to die ARE ultimately our most valuable natural (and national) resources.

Casualties
Opposition

In failure it's completely worse - it's an utter failure from the beginning - based on LIE after LIE that the repukes don't even care to hide anymore.

Someone needs to do some research - and it ain't me.

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you are comparing ONE YEAR to the TOTAL of the Vietnam War!

Look up the statistics for the FIRST YEAR of the Vietnam War!

Are you CLEAR now?!?!?!

ONE FUCKIN YEAR!

But maybe intelligence is beyond your grasp!

How many terrorists have we created with our actions? How many generations will pay for this?

I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that Iraq will make VietNam look like an afternoon at pre-school. 1st: it's not a good idea to make comparisons. Like comparing World War 1 versus WW2. They have some things in common, but the dynamics were completely different. Same thing here. Some people feel it's not comparable because the death toll doesn't match........yet. There are, however, some hair-raising reasons why this is just the Overture, or the Prelude to Dante's Inferno.

1) In Iraq, we're specifically targeting a group of people with a religion that is antagonistic to Christianity; Islam. In VietNam, we were combating "Communism", which is not the same. (we weren't fighting communism, by the way). There are 1.5 billion muslims worldwide, and they feel persecuted along with Iraqis at this moment. Think BushCo are big risk-takers? Try this one: we're outnumbered by the muslims by 4-1.

2) We had different reasons for marching into Iraq than VietNam. We marched into Iraq for 3 reasons: a) to secure their oil, which is has the #2 proven reserves second to Saudi Arabia, b) set up permanent bases so we can spy on the entire Middle East, c) demonstrate to the world that we are invincible militarily (we are failing at that). *note: I have read that VietNam did have some kind of geopolitical pipeline position, so I may be wrong about the reasons for going in.

3) The war in Iraq was extremely unpopular. The entire world stood up to protest. That wasn't the case in the late 50's, when France was losing badly. I think we went in to take over after the French. So it never had that hateful taint like Iraq did. Iraq was doomed from the start, BushCo just didn't realize it.

4) There is the potential for other Middle Eastern countries to get sucked into this. They already are, in fact. I understand that Syria and Iran are sending sympathetic freedom fighters into the fray. Also, I've read that Saudi Arabia with its deep pockets without end are financing a lot of these fighters. I don't think the war spilled over into other countries in VN.

4) There are biblical ramifications here at work, stoking the flames of warfare which threatens to escalate into an Armageddon, which is what they want. VietNam never had any of this deeper conflict. Nixon ordered the troops home, declared "victory" and it was over. I don't see how we can get out now.

My hesitant prediction: VietNam will look like Afternoon tea at the Empress Hotel compared to Iraq. I may be wrong. Hope so.

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Please don't fall for that lie. If anything, neo-Christianity (as practiced by rightwing Paulians) is antagonistic toward Islam and every other faith or lack thereof on the planet.

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I worded that wrongly. I should have reversed it. And I for one don't believe that, either.

I'm just pointing out what the majority of Americans believe. I'm not one of them.

:)

The opposition is not in the scripture, it is in the politics. The actions of the B* admin have turned so many hearts and minds in the Muslim world toward the position that the US is evil and must be fought. Don't fall for the RW spin that it's the religion that's reponsible for this.

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just FYI- not disagreeing with a single point you made.

:(

You're right. Iraq is much different. MUCH WORSE.

In two years we will have close to 2000 KIA in Iraq.

If you think the majority of the Iraqi people are against "the terrorists", I suppose you think most American colonists supported the tories. What you call terrorists are Iraqis fighting for the independence of their country from a foreign invader.

But keep on telling yourself it's not as bad as Nam. Why don't you go over there and give us a first hand account?

INFANTRY VET

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you are a REAL infantry vet and the other poster is not?

That just reminds me of the disgusting despicable tactics of the Smear Boat Veterans.

How can you say you are real and he is not? As the wife of a veteran, I find that appalling.

How about this? The enemy you fought in Vietnam had WAY bigger balls than this enemy.

How's that? Do you feel better now, REAL Infantry Vet?

Wife of a REALER Infantry Vet :eyes:

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And just for the record, mine was VERY tongue in cheek (thus the rolling eyes icon after it). I would never lord my husband's service over another vet. All veterans sacrifice in some way or another.

Thank you for what you said.

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My father in law served three tours of duty in Vietnam, has the shrapnel still in his leg. Voted for bush and co. Can't figure it out.

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That reminds me, I was not watching what I was doing in traffic once and rear-ended a guy. He got out, we talked, he was ok, really old.

Then he told me he was a paratrooper during WWII. That got us talking about my grandfather, who flew B-24 bombers over North Africa during WWII.

I came home and told my husband about the accident (our insurance went up, darnit, I was mad at myself) and he said "The guy survived being a paratrooper in WWII only to be the victim of your horrible driving!"

Poor guy.

My father in law was active duty Army, signed up in 65 and was in the 1st Cav the first time he went to Vietnam. Then the second time he was an NCO (SPC the first time). Then by the THIRD time, he was an officer! He volunteered for the last two tours. Yes, he is crazy.

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And like my dad told me when he lost his mom and dad, "you can be as old as you want, and you still feel like an orphan when your parents are gone."

Take care.

Give bush time. It's not even 2 years in Iraqnam yet.

but sadly he is lonelier than he should be.

Keep on telling the truth, it looks GOOD on ya!!!

cause then the rest of the bozos masquerading as dems.

I do not know the other mealy-mouthed who happen to have Ds behind their names.

GO BIG TED!!!

After all, the elections there take care of the "being afraid of freedom" part. Bush will strut around saying that he is in effect the Abraham Lincoln of Iraq and then go invade another tempting target.

Teddy's talk sounds good. Will enough of the members of Congress speak up this time to stop Bush's crimes? Will the courts rule that Bush does NOT have the power to wage war without the assent of Congress, no matter what kind of unconstitutional law the cowards passed? We're in a turning point now, whatever happens.

We are at a turning point. After 4 years of this disastrous administration which couldn't make a good decision to save its life, people are starting to get tired of it.

I think people were patient at the beginning of this war (not me, though -- I was never in favor of the war). After all, Bush has some very good speechwriters (bring democracy to the Middle East! a noble thought). However, the people who were going to do it are not noble, so it would never happen.

There have been critics of this mess from day 1. The criticism reached a crescendo when Rumsfeld kept screwing things up, time after time. He just can never get anything right. He's a 74 year old fool.

So Kennedy's right - this is Bush's VietNam.

First send a written "notice of accountability" to the neoCONimperialists who are creating this detrimental environment to best interests of "the people"; then, write to ALL the congressional members' (Republican, Democrat and Independent) whose responsibility it is to protect us from tyranny!!!

They ALL have the burden of protecting their people against any form of tyranny, foreign or domestic. Send them ALL, executive and legislative, a written notice that we "the people" are holding them accountable for the betrayal and manipulation and abuse of the loyalty and trust of the American people. Keep a copy of that letter!

If you seek to THUMP on anyone, best to focus your anger at those who are supporting this tyranny and give nothing but support to all those who indicate a willingness to fight it.

Don't think we will invade Iran -- the logistics are a nightmare. I don't put anything beyond Bush and the chicken hawks, but the professional military know the truth, that while we could easily bomb the Persians into the stone age, invading the country and holding it would be virtually impossible without a draft and far more troops and equipment than we presently have.

See the DU thread here and the Hersch story it links to:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2959361

The only question is whether they can be stopped this time.

I hope the story is wrong, invading Iran would be a horrendous tragedy...

...can he be stopped? Since he is calling it a military operation instead of intelligence-gathering, he can use the unconstitutional power to unilaterally declare war. Congress gave it to him (totally against the Constitution) and he has already used it before for invading Iraq.

Of course, they are very crafty and brilliant in playing out their world domination game.

What's scary is,...they are willing to gamble their own country in their belief that, the rest of world is gonna' relinquish.

Hitler and all his predecessors thought that.

This far more informed, far more "democratic-thinking" world,...is going to reject these arrogant, power-mongering assholes.

Of course, they will continue to destroy everything (including their own people) which presents obstacles to their "utopian" ideological path. I hate them for that. I hate them for bringing out the absolute worst of humanity. They deserve to burn in hell.

Every fucking thing this Mis-Administration has done over the last FOUR years has been "a horrendous tragedy"!

peace,
lc

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Time for primal scream therapy to make a comeback.

He seemed more passionate -- and more concerned -- than ever. His call to PLEASE STOP THEM seemed to me fairly explicit. At one point he said that he GETS this information because there are people on the inside who want to see them stopped, and are letting the info out to help do that.

The people who gave him this information are risking a great deal to do so. That's the message he and they are giving: "please! you've GOT to stop them before it's too late!"

Since Congress passed the clearly unconstitutional law that allows B* to invade a country without congressional approval, the question must be asked: what will stop this process? Unless even the Repubs are roused against this and make it clear it will not be tolerated, let alone supported, so that majorities in both houses oppose the Iran invasion, what will stop him? He's insane, so there isn't much that can be done as long as he's allowed to stay in power. What will be needed for impeachment procedings to be taken seriously?

If they fail to at least try,...they are complicit in this crime against their country, their citizens and this world.

MUST be repealed or challenged. He will use the same law to justify invading Iran. The power to declare war clearly belongs to the Congress.

specific legislation that gave him the 'war power'? I've not been able to actually read it, yet. I wondered if it gave up opened-ended authority or was it specifically targeted at 'the 9/11 terrorists'? I know that wouldn't matter to *ushco, they claim everyone that gets in their way is a terrorist. I don't think that would slow him down (look how long we had our little 'action' in Viet Nam w/no official war claim, draft included) but I would really like to know the wording in it. Did Congress really give him an open invitation to run roughshod over any country he pleases?

(don't holler 'stupid' - I'm trying to catch up, folks! I figure it's dumber to have a question unasked than to openly risk looking the fool.)

and Nuclear plant, then we'll tell the world to fall in line.

to fight back. A few months ago they claimed the right to strike pre-emptively if they thought they were going to be attacked. That doesn't bode well for the United States.

I would have asked santa clauss a lot of sniper-rifles, d.u. ammos, night vision systems, rpg, tow, etc...

very cheap compare to aircraft fighters, but far more efficient against a occupation force.

even with a draft and huge tax rises, that would be a mess.

and not his Stalingrad.

Eitherway, we lost this war already. The one's in charge are not willing to admint however.

After all the "elections" in Iraq are proof that "freedom" has been successfully spread, right? Why, B* is a regular Abraham Lincoln!

And you'll see downthread about the breaking story from Seymour Hersch showing the administration's intention to invade Iran.

He's insane, and far too few are trying to stop this insane march to annihilation.

so I guess we are not going to invade Syira. I know that make ME feel better.

we won the battles and killed untold millions in that war and we lost. now veit nam is not much better or worse than before,the people have the scars of war but life goes on.

The last poll numbers had a 60-40 edge for bu$h over a guy who actually served with them, you are far too optimistic if you honestly believe there is some great wake-up occurring in America these days because a few bombs are killing the troops now. They've been killing the troops for months.

The commander in chimp was able to win despite the election being a referendum on his war, Its wishful thinking to assume anyone is open to what Kennedy is trying to educate them on. Everyone tried these same comparisons last fall and it didn't make a lick of difference, and he's going to be reappointed in a few days despite it.

Remember kids. I said a guerrilla War would start and not stop until we (THE USA) were chased out--tail between the legs !!!

LOL

or at least we damned sure tried.

and I agree with you now. It seems inevitable now, no matter how the MSM tries to spin it. We will leave Iraq the same way we left Viet Nam. The last helo will be photographed taking on its last load from some hotel in the Green Zone.

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For years, the "powers that be" knew Vietnam could not be won. They knew it. (Read the Pentagon Papers.)

The Iraqis have nowhere to go. They must defend their homes.

That's why the DRAFT DODGERS (Cheney and Wolfowitz)-- And the AWOL CHIMPANZEE are so afraid--Rove knows this too that's why they will do everything to prolong the start of the draft,

AND of course waiting for the Next 9-11 then THEIR DRAFT WILL COME.

And all of us here will be labeled as traitors and rounded up.

What this administration has done, is doing to this country is radically beyond moderate "R"s and "D"s and "I"s.

EVERY "representative" should be serving his/her duty to protect the American people from this deceptive/manipulative, imperialistic, military-corporate tyranny that is engaging in the most violative abuse of power ever in American history.

I can only say to Ted Kennedy,...thank you for being an advocate on my behalf as an ordinary American citizen.

Thank you!!!!

he HATES it when people compare Iraq to Vietnam.

You have posted many, very informative articles on LBN.

Thank you so much!!!!

:yourock:

Kennedy is a good rich brave man.

wth does that mean?

But little George is rich and evil.

Beckel was asked on a following program (segment?) if Kennedy was correct and he said no!! Typical Democratic spokesman, dispute the messenger and muddle the message.

No wonder people can't figure out what Democrats stand for!

He's my hero.

This is a huge story - Seymour Hersch has done it again with his report on the secret target idenfication missions that have been going on inside Iran. The civilians in the admin intend to invade and destroy Iran's military infrastructure:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2959361

the troops.
tks, Hope.

We all know the "elections" in Iraq bear no resemblance to democracy. What they do is provide a PR talking point for B*, who can claim that his policies have brought "victory" and "freedom" to Iraq. Then, because of the unconstitutional law that says he can declare war without permission of Congress, he's off to Iran with his bombs and cannon fodder.

This is horrible, horrible, horrible. It MUST be stopped.

I hope KO is paying attention to this. The word needs to be spread far and wide. I plan to email him and hope others do too.

no spreading the blame around (JFK, LBJ, Nixon) like Vietnam.
Little Georgie's war

stamping your APPROVAL on this horrendous misadventure.

and keep it up. We need to use this mantra over and over again - Iraq is Bush's Viet Nam. This is what the repubs do - hang onto a catchphrase and say it over and over again until it's drummed into the American psyche.

Maybe we should throw *s ass over there to prove his patriotism.

:(

George W. Bush had a plan for getting out of Vietnam! ;)