Pope says EU needs Christian base

The Pope is wrong on this one. As Lenin said, religion is a private matter as far as the state is concerned. The "Christian base" that the Pope is talking about is the one in which gays have no rights, and abortion is banned. Screw that type of "Christian base" and good riddance, it belongs in the category of superstition and taboos!

BTW, the Pope refers to the "Judeo-Christian" roots, the same terminology used by Christian fundamentalists in America. This is an oxymoron! Judaism has nothing in common in Christianity, nothing at all! The Christian belief in the Trinity and the divinity of Christ violates Judaism and Islam's belief in the Oneness of God.

Pope says EU needs Christian base
Sunday, July 13, 2003 Posted: 1640 GMT (12:40 AM HKT)

CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy -- Pope John Paul has urged European leaders to think hard about Europe's Christian roots as it adopts a constitution for the enlarged EU.

A draft constitution finalized last month made no reference to God or Christianity -- a fact that the Vatican has sought to change.

In recent months, the pope and senior members of the Vatican have made repeated calls for European political leaders to recognise the continent's Judeo-Christian roots and refer to them in the nascent EU constitution, which is in its final drafting.

"In this historic period, in which we see the important process of European reunification and the enlargement of the European Union to other countries, the Church looks upon this continent with love," the Polish pontiff said -- but added "there is no lack of shadows."

"A certain loss of Christian memory is accompanied by a sort of fear in confronting the future," John Paul II told hundreds of pilgrims gathered for his first Sunday address this summer at the papal retreat outside Rome.

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/07/13/italy.pope.eu/index.html

almost exactly 100 ago. We don't need your opium old man.

a shame we didn't finish the work !
have a nice monday, a nice bastille day !

no god, no master !

Considering his disagreement with what our "Christian" administration is doing! I would just like to see some decent people in charge. I am a Christian but I certainly would not claim that we are better than other people.

Look at what its done for us.

The 12 stars of EU flag are actually a symbol of Mother Mary, flag dating back to 50's when the founding fathers thought of EU (EEC) as an Christian club. We've progressed from those days and are ready to accept muslim countries like Turkey, Albania, Bosnia and Kosovo if and when they are ready for membership.

Personally I don't mind the symbolism, I take it to be symbol of one form of the universal mother goddess...

Community of coal and steel. It had strictly nothing to do with a christian club. As to the stars they're like the american ones. They represent the states of the union.

It was the Catholic-dominated Christian Democratic parties that supported European integration the mostand the earliest. The Social Democrats either backed it late or are still against it.

I don't think the problem is having a Christian base, any more than it is having an Islamic or Jewish base. The dangers are in fundamentalism and a non-separation of Church and State.

Give to Cesar what is Cesar's...

Not a CLOSED ONE (as is found in many a US citizen)....

nt

BTW, the Pope refers to the "Judeo-Christian" roots, the same terminology used by Christian fundamentalists in America.

BFD. It's also commonly used and accepted in academia.

This is an oxymoron!

No, it's not.

Judaism has nothing in common in Christianity, nothing at all! The Christian belief in the Trinity and the divinity of Christ violates Judaism and Islam's belief in the Oneness of God.

Based on that one little tidbit, your claim that they have nothing in common is somehow validated? Even the most cursory glance at their respective histories and documents might help clear up just why that term is accurate.

Do you really want me to go down the list?

For any missionary religion it is bit difficult to murder a person to convert him/her, don't you think posthumous conversion is at least problematic? ;)

And the tribe of Israel had just other reasons for those murders and ethnic cleansings they committed according to Old Testament?

What is your point, I really really didn't get it?

The archeological evidence shows that there was no sudden Israelite invasion of the land of Canaan. On the contrary, the evidence points to an extended migration over a long period of time.

I don't suppose that you believe that the Israelites crossed the Red Sea?

to be compared and verified with other evidence, naturally, and there's lot of stuff in it from a long period of time. Some less, some more reliable.

What I don't get are you really trying to suggest that tribe of Israel has been pacifistic and unmurdorous???????????

posthumous conversions for years. There's more than one way to be the fastest growing religion. ;-)

Maybe she just meant threats of murder as well as actual torture.

I have to say:
god in a secular constitution? no
Values embraced by christianity ? yes
Values embraced by other religions ? yes
Values not embraced by christianity? yes
Freedom of faith? yes


But to clarify: European catholicism is a lot less conservative (in the faith) than American. The German Bishops even defy the pope from time to time and the holy mass is in the local language.
Not to mention: The pope was anti-war, a fact, that brought the local conservatives (christian democrats) in big problems.

He won't even let married men be priests, forget women or homosexuals.

he's on a whole different wavelength

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Why do you always target us Catholics rev? I know the RW ones piss you off but why target good catholics. BTW not all of the members of the defense are Catholic many of your critics who I know are not Catholic at all. I dunno know but true Catholics my family members kept me from going athiest I saw that they unlike my right wing Catholic friends were good and compassionate people. Look for another scapegoat other than those pope lovers seriously why do you like to annoy the living hell out of us you realize that we have no respect for you because of that. We love your message that the lord Jesus Christ was liberal but you have problems with Athiests I have noticed as well who arent in line with you particuallary Zomby and Curse. I dont agree with all the pope does but I do respect him for some of what he does. Let me tell you this I am pro choice and for gay marriage. I am a CINO I will stay Catholic though because I know of the chruch's mostly good intentions and for my ancestors who saw as I do the chance for hope.

Unlike you, I spend most of my time discussing more than 2 issues on this board so I don't wallow in the anti-Catholic threads. Next time you want an answer, I'd suggest you PM me and the rest of the Papal Brigade because it is NOT a priority in my life to engage you in conversation.

All quotes from the article:

1. "In this historic period, in which we see the important process of European reunification and the enlargement of the European Union to other countries, the Church looks upon this continent with love," the Polish pontiff said -- but added "there is no lack of shadows."

DO YOU AS A 'MAN OF GOD' HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT QUOTE? MADE TO A BUNCH OF CATHOLIC PILGRIMS AT THE PAPAL ESTATE?

2. "A certain loss of Christian memory is accompanied by a sort of fear in confronting the future,"

DO YOU AS A 'MAN OF GOD' HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT QUOTE? MADE TO A BUNCH OF CATHOLIC PILGRIMS AT THE PAPAL ESTATE?

He said the roots of problems such as "fragmentation" and the "fading of interpersonal solidarity" can be traced to a worldview without God or Christ.

DO YOU AS A 'MAN OF GOD' HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT QUOTE? MADE TO A BUNCH OF CATHOLIC PILGRIMS AT THE PAPAL ESTATE?

3. "But how can such a profound yearning for hope be satisfied? It is necessary to return to Christ and start again from him."

DO YOU AS A 'MAN OF GOD' HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT QUOTE? MADE TO A BUNCH OF CATHOLIC PILGRIMS AT THE PAPAL ESTATE?

If you have no problems with those quotes then WTF are you babbling about? I see nothing in these quotes to get all excited about- of course with you being hell-bent on attacking Catholicism, it comes as no surprise. So if you have any information about the Pope and the European Constitution NOT presented in this article, to support your new attack, then I'd suggest you present it.

"anti-Semitism" the other day. Truman made some generalized statements about Jews, you make generalized statements about Christians and Catholics but we're supposed to condemn him and listen to you.

It's the pope's JOB to promote Christianity, specifically Catholic Christianity. Everyone at DU is happy when Pope John Paul II condemns war or capital punishment but wants his rights to free speech revoked when he steps on their toes.

Under the "evil" Communists, Polish women had the right to abortion. Under the "democratic" current government, Polish women no longer have the right to abortion. It was the Vatican that pressured Poland into passing legislation outlawing abortion and contraception.

As long as religion remains inside the churches, it is a protected activity, the moment religion decides to impose itself on the public at large by means of legislation, it becomes a public threat.

The Pope wants the EU Constitution to include a religion clause, specifically a Christian religion clause. We would not tolerate such an outrage in America if the rightwing wanted to put a clause in our Constitution mandating belief in God, and neither should the Europeans!

Constitution to safeguard European Judo-Christian values (against the 'onslaught' of Islam)

DemEx

They safeguarded the European Judo-Christian values against the 'onslaught' of Islam by driving the Moors out of Spain and kicking the Jews out.

The only way to prevent history from repeating itself is by NOT doing the same stupid things that were done in the past.

Hopefully there will be no kicking out of anybody, just putting ideals and values in a written Constitution like in the States to safeguard some important (to us) values.
I'd love to see many of these values as 'safeguarded' as possible, in a peaceful, lawful manner.
And I have no traditional religious beliefs.
DemEx

Religious values are already generically mentioned in the preamble, what Pope and Christodoulos (asshole archbishop of Greece) and others want is a specific mention of X. That's a big nono, because the union is and must be secular and there are other religions in Europe, and even many predominanty muslim nations like Turks and Albanians, and such a mention would be discriminating against them and create a strong (and very bigoted) excuse to keep them outside the Union.

are fearful of......predominantly Muslim nations, and growing Islamic populations within Europe, having values that clash with 'ours'
Trying to safeguard these values lawfully and peacefully is not a bad thing to strive for. IMO.
I would prefer finding a way to safeguard them without using mention of X.......

DemEx

The values in the Koran, the Tanakh, the Halacha (based on the Talmud and the Shulhan Aruch) and the New Testament are the same.

They're all filled with injunctions to "Love Peace and Pursue Peace," treat the stranger kindly, love thy neighbor as thyself etc.

I'm no scholar but I've read them all and compared the beliefs of the Judaic and Judeo-derived religions. All the basic values came from Judaism.

and rightly so IMO. Democracy, equality, women's role, freedom of speech, belief, etc.....

Islamic states' records are not promising, and fundamentalist activist groups in Europe and throughout the world have plans other than democracy for the world.

Of course these groups are not the majority of Muslims, but the perceived threat is enough to try to take measure now to preserve values that we hold dear.
In Europe separation of church and state is achieved IMO, but in Islam religious laws are supreme.

We will all have to keep watch on how Turkey develops in the coming months and years, along with budding Islamic political parties and activist groups here in Europe.

DemEx

:hi:
DemEx

But in Europe, people have evolved FROM political Christianity to secular, democratic states, and Islam has not been through that process yet.

As the members of the European Union prepare for the formal review of a draft constitution in October, Pope John Paul appealed again for an explicit "reference to the religious and, in particular, the Christian heritage of Europe."

"While fully respecting the secular nature" of European institutions, he said, they must allow for religious freedom, foster dialogue between religious communities and European structures, and guarantee that the juridical status of religions recognized in individual nations is not abrogated.

"In her relations with public authorities, the church is not calling for a return to the confessional state," the pope said. But the church also rejects attempts to create a "hostile separation between civil institutions and religious confessions."
http://www.the-tidings.com/2003/cns/cns0630.htm

I don't see the evil in that. Most of the different European constitutions already mention that they were written "in responsibility before God and men". The Irish constitution even mentions "the Holy Trinity".

The true Judeo-Christian values that this Pope has advocated and LIVED, passionately, bravely, and sincerely, are values we should ALL be adopting. They are the humanistic values of charity and love common to all major religions to INCLUDE Islam. The Pope was worked tirelessly to point out the common points between Islam, Judaism and Christianity which all serve the same God with the same honor and emphasizing the same values.

I don't think he's advocating this against the 'onslaught' of Islam, rather against the onslaught of rampant excesses of Capitalistic materialism and consumerism against which he's railed since he became Pope- to the US government's great disgust.

If that's not progressive, I don't know what is.

(and I wouldn't call him progressive in any way) the political reality is that specific mention of X would be used politically, for example by right wing to exclude muslim nations from EU.

Therefore any specific mantion of any religion is a nono.

Pope shoud be satisfied that specific mention to Enlightenment was left out in the final version.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

If the Europeans give in to the Pope on the "Gawd" issue, what other issues would they have to surrender in order to make the Pope, and other Christian conservatives happy?

On edit, added this:

Article III-5 (ex Article 13)

1. Without prejudice to the other provisions of the Constitution and within the limits of the
powers conferred by it upon the Union, a European law or framework law of the Council of
Ministers may establish the measures needed to combat discrimination based on sex, racial or ethnic
origin, religion or belief, disability, age or sexual orientation. The Council of Ministers shall act
unanimously with the consent of the European Parliament.

http://european-convention.eu.int/docs/Treaty/cv00848.en03.pdf

and she wants to keep abortion to a miminal.

It really comes very close to a mandate as far as the US... You can't go anywhere in this country without having to pledge allegiance to god, implicitely or explicitely.

before jumping on this bandwagon? I have seen no evidence that he asked for squat you or any sane person would disagree with and you know what an avid reader of news I am- to include French and German news.

Furthermore, the only thing I see in this article which is unsubstantiated by any quotes or links is that he thought it should make a "reference to God or Christianity".

Until I see what he proposed, I refuse to judge because I have no idea what the facts are.

This has been a multi-front assault from the Vatican, from asking for a ban on stem-cell research, to a petition to the EU to grant a special status for religious orders, to the topic of this thread.

I will point out that this is probably an Opus Dei initiative. The most powerful man in the Vatican, second only to the Pope, is the Pope's personal aid, the Spaniard Joaquin Navarro-Valls. Navarro-Valls is a member of Opus Dei, and was instrumental in getting the Pope in canonizing Opus Dei's controversial founder Josemaría Escrivá.

American Catholics may not be familiar with the Spanish Catholic Church, and its cozy relationship with Fascist dictator Francisco Franco. Escrivá was a Jesuit cleric that was active in Spanish Phalange politics. Escrivá was an extreme rightwinger with anti-Semitic views. His biggest coup was when he maneuvered the Vatican into giving Opus Dei total independence from the local bishops.

The American Opus Dei operates independently of the American Catholic Church, its bishops and cardinals. It is answerable to no one, except the Pope (or whoever is managing Papal affairs for the elderly and ailing Pope, in this case Joaquin Navarro-Valls).

The Vatican is not immune to intrigue and conspiracies.

From Catholic News:

The push for inclusion of Christianity in European Constitution

Zenit News Agency carries two reports in its first bulletin after the break on the debate going on about the inclusion of Christianity in the European Constitution. Last Friday the President of the European Parliament, Patrick Cox, had a meeting with Pope John Paul and later met with Cardinal Angelo Sodan, Vatican Secretary of State. Following the audience, Vatican Press Office director Joaquin Navarro-Valls explained in a statement that the Holy See does not ask for a privileged legal status. Rather, it asks "for the safeguarding of the effective exercise of religious liberty, in full respect of the secular character of civil and community institutions, as well as of non-confessional organizations," he said. In a separate report, the President of the European Commission, Romano Prodi, says the future European Constitution should not exclude cultural and religious traditions, especially the Christian, which forged the continent.

http://www.cathnews.com/news/301/33.php

Freedom of religion and the European Constitution

The case of Italy

The following considerations stem from our own personal experience as Italian
citizens. Article 7 of our Constitution provides that the Concordat with the Catholic
Church may be repealed only upon agreement by both parties. Thus the Republic of
Italy and the Catholic Church are placed on the same footing which confers upon the
Church an official role entailing a long series of nefarious consequences.

The first of these consequences is the violation of article 3 of our Constitution
which lays down that all citizens are equal. In actual fact they are not. Citizens
belonging to religions or communities of faith other than the Roman catholic, citizens
who have no religious allegiance, i.e. atheists, agnostics, freethinkers and people who
simply have no religious belief are de facto discriminated on a number of grounds:
teaching of religion in schools, display of religious symbols in all public buildings,
public funding of parishes, religious institutions and ngos, presence of religious
representatives at public ceremonies, time allotted by public radio and TV to the
Pope, religious events, miracles, crying madonnas, healing priests and the like. The
Concordat of 1984 and again Mr.Berlusconi’s Government further extended the
privileges accorded to the Catholic Church.

The Minister of Education appointed a Cardinal as adviser on ethical questions
to the Ministry. The official presence in the government process of a religious
adviser on ethical matters is a flaw that blurs and undermines democracy, for the
legitimacy of a Government rests exclusively upon the mandate it has received from
its sovereign people; any additional source of legitimacy is but a weakening of the
democratic mandate. All the more so as the ethical stance of a religion is based on a
transcendent message which is understood y by its followers only and hence should
not to be imposed on the rest of the nation. Furthermore, the Catholic Church is a
theocracy whose hierarchy is neither elected nor accountable and should not be
considered on an equal footing with and by a democratically elected Government.
The Italian Parliament is examining at present a bill on freedom of religion where, for
the first time, the freedom to have no religion is explicitly recognized. The Union of
Rationalist Atheists and Agnostics hopes that this will legitimize non believers as
fully fledged citizens and that requests to be heard by public authorities on subjects
such as the teaching of religion in schools or end-of-life issues made by atheists and
their associations will no longer be either ignored or flatly rejected on the ground that
…they are not a religion.

http://europa.eu.int/futurum/forum_convention/documents/contrib/other/0270_c_en.pdf

know or believe in and what the pope did was wrong there but he has done some good. Thanks Indiana I found the Rev's statement taunting me and the other Catholics angering. I am not mad at you or most if not all of the others who responded even if they were critical of the pope.

and this is something to be discussed some other time, but there has been a steady infiltration in mainstream religions of religious extremism that runs counter to existing traditions. This is happening across the board, in all denominations. These extremists share one thing in common: they crave having total control, and they are very intolerant of religious diversity.

The Opus Dei sect is the kind I despise. They are the Falwells of us Catholics. You are right Indiana. Dont worry I havent had any problems with you in the past and realize you were talking about extremeists with in faiths. I wasnt mad I just dont like being taunted by the rev.

Thanks for the explanation.

I guarantee you that I will raise the issue of Opus Dei after the current Pope dies. One of the Cardinals, Juan Luis Cardinal Cipriani Thorne, Archbispop of Lima, Peru. Cipriani was ordained an Opus Dei priest. As a Cardinal he gets to elect the next Pope, and could become Pope himself.

!:-)

more, but no one at DU talks about the Lubavitchers. From my research, the Lubavitchers have more power in Washington than Opus Dei does. They have given awards to Joe Lieberman and Ari Fleischer. Paul Wolfowitz and Carl Levin support them. Presidents have been declaring a national holiday for them for thrity years or so. A Lubavitcher rabbi has regular seminars for Jewish people who work in Congress. I know Justice Scalia is supposed to belong to Opus Dei but I've not heard of anyone in Congress being a member.

The Lubavitchers want to abolish the practice of Christianity. I know of nothing to indicate that Opus Dei wants to abolish the practice of Judaism. Christianity does seek to convert non-Christians because it is believed this is necessary for salvation. Attemped conversion is not the same as abolishing the practice of another faith.

Lubavitchers want to gain power and make all non-Jews become "Hasidic Gentiles" -- NOT Jews but sort of second-class Jews who are kept apart from the real Jews, who would be in charge of society. Christians would be KILLED for practicing Christianity. I'm not talking about the Middle Ages but about something that these people believe today.

I think we need to discuss Lubavitchers if we're going to discuss Opus Dei because right-wing radicals of any faith are a threat to the rest of us.

well on Opus Dei members I can think of
Clarence Thomas
Antonin "Fat Tony" Scalia
Robert "selling with the Russians" Hansen
Since you noticed I live near DC dembones I must tell you this. Thomas does go to normal catholic churches I think my grandmother swears she saw him. Scalia and Hansen went to this church in Great Falls, Va called St Catherine of Siena thats not where I would go personally. My grandmother lives in Springfield, Va in the more liberal part. Also dembones this group you speak of freaks me out.

said to be members of Opus Dei and that Scalia and Hansen both attended St. Catherine of Siena, but none of these three men are in a legislative branch of government. My point was that there is Lubavitcher influence on members of House and Senate and people in the White House so they influence both legislative and executive branches. They may well have judicial influence, too. They are aggressive about spreading their teachings.

You should do a search for Chabad Lubavitch. They are a very scary group. They would EXECUTE people for celebrating Christmas or Easter. Their sites contain all their frightening beliefs.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Freeh was head of FBI on 9/11.

White House? Are you ignoring this dangerously radical Jewish group?

Misguided perhaps, as when they expected their late beloved rebbe Schneerson to rise from the dead. There is nothing more foolish than that!

However, the Lubavitch do perform a good deed when they seek assimilated and non-observant Jews and try to get them to return to observing Halacha, the Jewish laws.

The Lubavitch do not attempt to proselytize the goyim, only Jews.

Compared to some of the real crazy Jews that we have among us, such as the outlawed Kach party, the Lubavitch are gentle teddy bears.

A Place All Their Own in the Jewish Kaleidoscope

A New Book on the Lubavitch Movement Offers Enlightening Details But Resists the Hard Questions

By JOSEPH BERGER

In the Jewish kaleidoscope, they occupy a place all their own. The followers of the Lubavitcher rebbe, with their strict emphasis on Halacha, or traditional rabbinic law, are certainly not part of the more liberal branches of Judaism, even if, paradoxically, they appear to be most comfortable operating among those adherents. But they are not quite part of the traditional world either, not even the chasidic world. Unlike the other sects that revere a dynastic rebbe, they single-mindedly devote much of their energy to turning other Jews toward a more forceful observance of Jewish life, proselytizing in aggressive ways that sometimes repel others within their own Orthodox circles.

With a worldwide empire operating at a combined budget of close to $1 billion and an army of thousands of emissaries, they have been able to make inroads in exclusive bastions like Hollywood, Congress and the White House that the other branches must envy. Yet, they seem perpetually on the verge of fragmenting, unable to pick a new leader, roiled by a conflict over impassioned messianic beliefs, accused by outsiders of espousing virtually a Christian theology in believing, as many Lubavitch do, that their dead rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, will soon return to Earth.

What then is one to make of them? Sue Fishkoff's book, "The Rebbe's Army: Inside the World of Chabad-Lubavitch," is as well-reported an account as we have had on this fascinating group. While not as intimate nor as quietly lyrical as Lis Harris's "Holy Days" (Summit Books), the 1985 book that studied Lubavitch life in Crown Heights through the prism of a single Lubavitch family, Fishkoff's book is far more ambitious. She has traveled across the country and assembled a vivid and often entertaining portrait of the most characteristic members of the Lubavitch chasidim ñ the shlichim, or missionaries, who try to persuade those who are Jews by birth to reconnect with Jewish observance. (Though Fishkoff uses the Israeli Hebrew term shlichim, Lubavitchers themselves use the parallel term from medieval rabbinic Hebrew, shluchim.) In the process, she impresses us with the growing power and influence of what even two decades ago many Jews considered a sweet but trivial oddity.

http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.06.06/arts2.html

theology as dangerous as anything taught by extremists of the Christian or Muslim faiths. I find it difficult to understand how you can be so concerned about Opus Dei's supposed influence on Pope John Paul II but fail to see the danger of the radical group Chabad Lubavitch when Chabad Lubavitch has proven influence on people within our US government.

I have read the Lubavitcher's own literature, not an "entertaining portrait" of
some of their members such as you cite. Perhaps you need to read it, too.

The Lubavitcher's aim is theocracy, with themselves in control, Christianity and other religions outlawed (death penalty for celebrating Christmas and such "crimes.") They do want Jews to be more Jewish and they don't want to convert Gentiles. Instead, Gentiles will be allowed to become Hasidic Gentiles, sort of second-class Jews who worship as Jews but aren't real Jews and have their own separate laws, the Noahide Laws, rather than the Ten Commendments. Gentiles will have no alternative since Christianity and all religions other than Judaism will be outlawed if the Lubavitchers take power.

I understand that Jews don't appreciate Christian attempts to convert them but you must admit there is a big difference between a Jew becoming a Christian and being accepted like any other Christian and the Lubavitcher concept of Gentiles becoming "Hasidic Gentiles" who do not have all the rights of Jews though they are practicing Judaism. It is quite clear that the Lubavitchers judge all non-Jews to be of lesser importance than Jews. I think this is a dangerous attitude. If a right-wing Christian group were to preach that Jews could become "semi-Christians," DUers would condemn them as bigots. Why should a Jewish group be able to preach "semi-Jewishness" for Christians?

Fringe sect? Chabad Lubavitch is supported by Jews in high places in Washington, D.C. -- Ari Fleischer & Joe Lieberman have won awards for what they've done for Chabad Lubavitch. Since Carter was president, a national holiday is dedicated to Rabbi Schneerson every year, though it's called something like Education Day. Rabbi Schneerson, who's now deceased, was a New Yorker said to be a direct descendant of King David. Schneerson was a major figure in Chabad Lubavitch and predicted the Messiah (not Jesus) was coming in our lifetime.

There is a Lubavitcher rabbi who conducts seminars for Jewish members of House and Senate and is said to have a lot of influence. For example, he got Dick Armey to postpone the House impeachment vote so Jewish members wouldn't have to vote during the High Holy Days, which seems fair except that he belongs to a sect that wants to take away everyone else's religious freedom. Carl Levin and Paul Wolfowitz are among those who have some association with the Lubavitchers. Away from Washington, Dr. Laura is a Lubavitcher. The guy who shot up a mosque in Israel some years back was a Lubavitcher, too.

If people read about them, I think they'll agree that Chabad Lubavitch is as dangeous as any reactionary Christian group and they are certainly anti-Christian. They also operate relatively under the radar, and seem not to be repudiated by other Jews, as indicated by your defense of them.

Rather than give a bunch of links, I suggest DUers search for themselves, looking for Chabad Lubavitch (or Habad Lubavitch), Rabbi Schneerson, Noahide Law(s), Lubavitchers, etc.

Here's one link to start with:

http://www.noahide.com

Be sure to see http://www.noahide.com/finalwar.htm
for a long treatise on Israel, the PLO, and Communism, including this bit of right-wing disinfo:

"President Clinton himself was trained by foreign Communist Parties during the 1960s, and his wife is a long-time supporter of such pro-PLO Communist organizations as the National Lawyers Guild. . ."



 

If Cipriani becomes Pope I will remind Catholic but my Uniterian leanings will go up. I am hoping the next pope is Irish because well Pope John Paul II was the first Polish pope why not an Irish one and I think he would be progressive thinking. The Catholics here at DU do not like Opus Dei.

I would be the first to defend you against that charge! Of course I might have a little explaining to do just as you would have to explain me away to those who would accuse me of, well, you know!

Catholic Ireland was very anti war and does many things for its people.

with the part that addresses the constitution.

, it asks "for the safeguarding of the effective exercise of religious liberty, in full respect of the secular character of civil and community institutions, as well as of non-confessional organizations," I am totally ok with that

(The rest of the article addresses Prodi who is the head of the EC and has nothing to do with the Vatican so I'll skip that).

The other article addresses the Italian constitution and not at all what this Pope requested.

It amuses me to see this turn into a Pope/Vatican issue when this push is also coming from Jewish, Muslim and Protestant organizations.

But let's keep talking. I'll keep looking. I'm only interested in finding out what he requested and seeing if it's worthy of all this rhubarb.

You are familiar with Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian PM, and current President of Europe. He is one of the players in this game of intrigue.

Saturday June 28, 06:07 PM
Pope calls for Jesus in EU constitution

Italy, along with Roman Catholic Spain, Portugal and Poland, has demanded a specific reference to Christianity in the constitution, aimed at shaking up creaky EU institutions.

The pope reiterated on Saturday his full respect for the secular nature of those institutions, but in a 134-page document, he hammered home the need for Europe to come to terms with its Christian heritage.

"Europe, as you stand at the beginning of the third millennium, open the doors to Christ! Be yourself. Rediscover your origins. Relive your roots," he said.

Only a small minority of Europeans are regular churchgoers, particularly in Protestant countries where less than 10 percent of the population attend regularly.

But the debate has taken on added urgency for many Christians as overwhelmingly Muslim but secular Turkey strives to start EU accession talks in 2005.

Opponents to the reference to Christianity say it would offend millions of Muslims and other religious groups already in the EU and that faith should play no part in a constitution.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030628/80/e3fh0.html

"I wish once more to appeal to those drawing up the future European constitution treaty, so that it will include a reference to the religious and in particular the Christian heritage of Europe,"

Ok... good start but what is this reference and how is it phrased? You know as well as I do how words get distorted and hasty, incorrect conclusions drawn...

Like I said earlier, there is more at play here than first appears. The Pope is ill and feeble, he is vulnerable to the influence of powerful men, particularly those that owe allegiance to Opus Dei.

Christianity omitted from EU constitution
By Roland Flamini
UPI International Editor

WASHINGTON, May 28 (UPI) -- A draft European Union constitution prepared for submission to the members states contains no specific reference to God, or to Europe's Christian roots, despite strong pressure from conservatives, and from the Vatican, the Italian news agency ANSA reported Wednesday.

<snip>

According to diplomatic sources, liberal members ruled out even a token mention of God in the preamble of the constitution. But the Vatican mounted a strong diplomatic effort to have the role of Christianity in Europe included in the text.

Pope John Paul II weighed into the debate on several occasions, pressing the point with visiting European leaders and in several public statements. If the EU would not identify itself as a Christian institution, he was quoted as telling Giscard d'Estaing, it could at least recognize "the decisive contribution of Christianity and Christian vision to the history and culture of various European states."

What the pope wanted, a Vatican spokesman said, was "a clear reference to God and the Christian faith to be formulated in the European constitution.

All 15 EU members and 10 countries due to join next year are formally Christian states, although most -- including Italy, France, and Spain -- make no reference to their Christian roots in their respective constitutions. Secularists at the convention contended that a clearly pluralist modern Europe had moved beyond a need to include a reference to a particular religion or any religion at all.

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20030528-060422-3262r.htm

The catholic &l;sic&r; churches that have adopted the three creeds (Nicene, Apostle's and Athanasian) make it clear that the concept of the Trinity lies in Unity.

Here's an excerpt from the Athanasian Creed:


We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.

For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.

But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.

believe in three or one. When you see the creeds not only as a theological discussion, but in the historical context (the roman empires breaking down and beeing threatened and the fear of loosing power over the people of Europe) you could also consider this as an effort to keep the unity of christianity. The church saw that they were loosing influence and power the more that there were different sorts of belief, and they tried to regain a unite theology, IMO.
And nowadays the roman catholic church also is loosing more and more influence on the Europeans, so they want people of other religions to stay out. On the other side, there are many persons in all European countries, that also want e.g.Turkey to stay outside from different causes. So I see an unholy alliance between those rightwingers (probably neo-nazis) and the roman-catholic church, although I really don´t think the pope to want this. I myself would also like Turkey to stay outside as long as they cannot stop torture and oppression and the thread of a military putsches, but this is a matter of human rights, and not a matter of christianity. When they can fullfill the criteria in human rights an in economy, they should be welcome!

It's not Filioque, get it!!!

<sarcasm of

But I must confess I like the orginal Orthodox version better, and don't hold bishop of Rome in high regard. ;)

AFAIK the 1054 thingy was very much political and I prefer the desentralized original model of the east to the dictatorial unity of one bishop. Too much power for one person is not good.

But thats just me and I'm not even Xian, just ranting... :)


Now we got Arcbishop of Athens (I hate him) very vocally allying with Pope on EU-attack, but Patriarch of Constantinople, primus inter pares, is wisely leaving earthly politics to politicians. I just think it's nice they don't have to agree on everything...

:grr:

and are believed to think that Bush is the Anti-Christ.

Have to hand it to you on this one. The Pope is wrong to insist on a Judaeo Christian Europe. But maybe not so wrong on other issues to get so much vitriol.

It's always fun to see the tolerance and good-heartedness of these religion threads. No wonder they were banned. Too many ignorant comments.

Get over it Voltaire.

Christians and the Church will be around long after marxism, rationalism, and any other number of "isms" you wish to place your faith in.

The 21st century is the century of the harmony between faith and reason -- somewhere between and above Dogmatism and Rationalism. The modern Catholic church, and many non-fundy protestant groups (Lutherans for example) are achieving a powerful balance that enhances the strength of both faith and reason. It's too bad many posters here like to try and beat down the strawman of the Medieval Church, or to try and make the fundamentalist protestant groups as representative of all Christians.

I've heard the cries of "Non Serviam" echoing throughout the ages -- its nothing new. It was the first sin.

... do you think it´s a sign of rationalism to forbid that catholics join the lutherans for the Meal (don´t know the right expression in english: Eucharistie)?

(the Eucharist) in non-Catholic churches that have different teachings about the sacrament. Every faith has the right to set its own rules and standards for its people.

the catholic and the lutherans (for instance here in Germany) pray the same Credo, exactly the same words! And when I was younger (in the seventies, o my, LAST CENTURY...) it was quite normal to have Communion together. But in the last few years there is a sort of return to the middle-age in parts of the catholic church ( due to Cardinal Ratzinger and the Opus Dei ).

apostolic succession -- two major divergences from Catholicism.

The seventies were a time of experimentation and flouting of convention throughout society so it's not surprising that Catholics and Lutherans had Communion together but I think it was always against the rules of the Church. I've never heard of it being done here in the US but we've certainly gone beyond what Vatican II meant us to do, becoming almost Protestant in some ways.

Not having a religious base does not preclude christians from being christians, muslims from being muslims, jews from being jews, etc.

Of course, since this is the pope talking, he would want a christian based government in as many places as possible.

One was enough!

uh huh.

People that are christian, should stay that way.. people who are of other faiths should stay that way..

People should all just IGNORE whatever faith their friends/coworkers/neighbors are.. MYOB..

That should be the number one commandment :(

That is a ridiculous statement. We share a great deal in common. Christianity is an extension of Judaism, the only real difference is that some Jews followed Christ believing he was the Messiah and others, who felt the Messiah was still to come did not.

I agree that the Pope is wrong however, but what else is he going to say? He's the Pope. :shrug:

However Lenin? We should care what Lenin said about religion? The people of Russia had no religious freedom. They were horribly persecuted. Screw Lenin.

When all the good Christians of Europe spent decades slaughtering eachother and causing Central Europe to lose nearly a third of its population to combat, disease, and famine. Yeah, that was a real hoot.

I think mainstream Europe is wise to take it's religious heritage with a grain of salt, as they need only to look to the former Yugoslavia or Northern Ireland to see what taking religious allegiances too seriously can lead to.

equality and free from discrimination.

They want to revive the Holy Roman Empire, which flourished during that period.

....and leave government to others.

(At least that's what this ex-Catholic thinks.)