Raising children as vegans 'unethical', says professor

A leading US nutritionist today claimed that vegetarian and vegan parents are damaging their children's health by denying them meat.
UK experts immediately contested the findings of Professor Lindsay Allen, of the University of California at Davis, and Sir Paul McCartney told the BBC that the claims were "rubbish".

Prof Allen conducted a study of impoverished children in Kenya, and found that adding as little as two spoonfuls of meat a day to their starch-based diets dramatically improved muscle development and mental skills.

---snip---
However, the British Dietetic Association said the study looked at impoverished, rural children with a poor background diet low in essential nutrients such as zinc, B12 and iron, and its findings were not applicable to vegan children in the developed world.

"There is no evidence that our vegan and vegetarian children in this country suffer impaired development," a spokeswoman for the association said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/food/Story/0,2763,1419386,00.html


Mmmm Hmmmm....But raising children on McDonalds and Lunchables is just great, right?

"starvation" might be overstating it slightly but not by much

"the study looked at impoverished, rural children with a poor background diet low in essential nutrients"

starched based. Starches are cheap, and that's why they are the primary food source for the poor,fresh fruits and veggies are expensive, so often they are denied those essential nutrients. Humans ARE NOT obligate carnivores; only cats, members of the mongoose family, and hyenas are. Even a dog can do well on a vegan diet (and a dog is built far better than humans for meat digestion). In fact, the oldest dog on record spent it's entire life as a vegetarian.

Obviously, this guy is working for the (GOP) beef and pork industries.

This is the typical illogical myth that a vegan or vegetarian diet necessarily provides too little protein. Many people get most of their protein from meat, so they think that if they cut out meat, there goes the protein. A good vegan or vegetarian diet is not simply a matter of not eating meat, but getting protein (and other nutrients like B12) from other sources. There are various legumes and vegetables (e.g. broccoli) that have lots of protein. There's also vegetarian protein powder for those that want to get LOTS of protein (maybe TOO much!).

Someone tell this guy he doesn't get enough protein!
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler14.htm

Some vegetarians:
Carl Lewis = 9x Olympic Gold winner
Dave Scott = 4x World Champion Iron Man triathlete
:
Chris Campbell = Olympic medallist wrestler
Stan Price = World record holder in bench press
Bill Manetti = Powerlifting champion
Andreas Cahling = "Mr International" bodybuilder
Bill Pearl = 4x "Mr Universe"
Roy Hilligan = "Mr America"
http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/Vegetarians.htm

If people want to eat meat, that's their choice, but these stereotypes about vegetarians are wrong.

It is true that some vegetarians have poor diets, but that can be said also about many who eat meat.

My main reasons are protecting our environment and thus ourselves, and cruel practices of factory farms.

to know where to start. First of all, let me just say that I believe that, for every professor who argues that a vegan lifestyle is detrimental to a child's nutritiion, you can find one who would argue the same about a diet that includes meat. Secondly, just because our parents raised us on the basis of what were considered proper nutritional guidelines at the time, it does not necessarily follow that our diets were completely healthy. Remember, even the Journal of the American Medical Association recommended SMOKING for pregnant women in the 1950's. I think we can all admit that so-called EXPERT opinion is,in the very least, suspect and, quite possibly, TAINTED by personal or professional bias. Thirdly, through my own personal experience and research, I have become convinced that not only is eating meat unhealthy, but so is eating animal products. I believe that children SHOULD be raised on milk, HUMAN milk! Cow's milk is for baby cows! As a parent,don't I have the right and responsibility to do what I think is best for my child? Last I checked, parental responsibility ended at age 18. Finally, let me just ask you all a few questions to consider: Have you performed ANY serious research into the effects of dietary choices on human nutrition that is based on valid UNIMPEACHABLE sources? How long does meat rot in the lower intestine before it is finally expelled? What happens at the molecular level to food, including vegetables, when it is cooked? How do these molecular changes affect the nutritional level as well as the carcinogenic properties of food? I don't have all the answers to these questions, but, if I was raising a child, I would want to know and, I would want to be able to make choices based on what I learned, not simply on the way my misguided parents may have raised me.

Also, people seem to be unaware that there are large populations in certain countries, such as India, that are vegetarian, and have been so for generations.

Some people think that it requires a "lot of care" to become a vegetarian or live as one. That is false. Be sure to get enough B12 and that women get enough iron. It is quite easy and a lot more healthy, interesting and fun than being a meat-eater.

for both meat and vegetables? If we were strict vegetarians we would have some type of fermenting vat in the digestion system (yes, even horses have this).

There is also a huge body of anthropological evidence that humans are meat eaters. Meat eating primates tend to share food and eat socially, vegetarian primates tend not to share food and eat socially - humans share food.

Are sadly what's under attack. Why is bush pushing to try to slaughter wolves? The beef ranchers/meat ranchers. The hidden and unknown battle between the meat industry and environmentalists is underway just like all the other better known battles.

The meat industry has a lot of pull, they made oprah, a hugely popular figure, sweat just by a few comments she made. It isn't about it's a poor lifestyle, I mean, people STILL tell me smoking is good for me, and their justification is 'sissies don't smoke'. That's the mentality most people have with vegans, that they're sissies who don't kill to eat. It takes away from the fur farms, the meat industry, and environmental attacking trades as a whole. If you can acknowledge killing is wrong, those trades would be purely dead and considered atrocious trades. Ironically people's main justifications for attacking pagans is they used to do animal rituals, yet the fur trade kills more animals daily than most pagans did, hundreds of years ago, in a year. Most don't even follow that practice anymore, yet you won't find most religious wing nuts holding 'down with fur trade' signs...

Clear cutting would DEFINATELY be harmed if enough americans needed the forest plant life to survive. I mean maybe we don't get all of our food from trees or forested areas, but if our experiments went to good needs of plants besides those grown for herbs or medications, it could seriously infer certain big businesses. Right now vegetables are seen as 'manditory' and not a 'must'. These companies want to preserve that mindset at all costs.

It's an attack on environmentalists as a whole, and personally, I think it's ludicrous to judge someone else for how they eat or have their children eat. I was beaten profusely and it was 'okay' because religion agreed with it and it was okay to hit your child with a rod because of 'spare the rod spoil the child'. You'd be amazed how many judges agree with these flawed religious statutes. I'd say that types of punishments (especially religiously derived) are also considered child abuse, but heck, if we have them eat vegetables as a primary food source, let's bastardize it as child abuse, eh?

It's all ludicrous, there's no evidence of a detrimental vegan life. I agree wholeheartedly with you, there are many forms of proteins. Legumes being a high one. It's good if we teach our kids that hunting isn't the only way we need to eat food. It will help them survive far more than one who's bodies are so used to meat, and getting lost in a wooded area they can't hunt to eat. Instead of teaching everyone to kill, maybe we should teach everyone how to survive in many different ways besides those we're most used to.

Personally? I eat meat, and I stand against the unethical way animals are treated at meat packaging and butchering areas. I'm a huge environmentalist, but I don't let it change my diet. Sadly, my goals are attacked with this article as much as a vegitarian, and I personally respect vegan parents/followers for taking a stand against things the way they do. I don't like people pushing their lifestyles of eating on me, but that isn't the case here, it's actually the oppisite... people are now attacking vegans for how they eat, strange how that works. I'm willing to call it massive hypocricy to those who say vegans too much impose the way they want to eat on others.

engineered food are letting poor people starve. I'm not even vegetarian, but it really ticks me off when people use starving children to advance their agenda.
They talk like these people have a choice. I'm sure these kids could just go out and have a hamburger if they wanted to :eyes:

Here is the nutritional breakdown for a cup of chopped brocolli (I chose chopped because that is the easiest to measure consistently)

Calories: 25
Protein: 3 grams
Carbs: 5 grams

In a typical ounce of meat, there are about 7 grams of protein.

Veganism might work for some, but I've learned that I need to eat 150 grams of protein a day, and about 2500 calories, to maintain my weight. That's a lot of brocolli :)

and yet it's the biggest part of the so-called food "pyramid"...:shrug:

wake up people- you are what you eat.

really makes one wonder to the lengths headline writers will go to create controversy.

raising kids vegan and raising them on McDonalds and Lunchables.

There's no reason kids can't have chicken or fish. But to go totally vegan is just fucked up child abuse.

If you're a vegan adult, fine, be a vegan adult, but wait until your kid is old and can make that decision for themself.

Care to back that up?

I'm not vegan, not even vegetarian. But I have a hard time with your statement.

It's like brainwashing, IMO.

Veganism is a fairly extremist lifestyle. Personally, I wouldn't raise my kids that way, nor would I force them to adopt any belief system just because its what I thought was best.

Once they are old enough to understand what veganism is, they can choose to adopt it for themselves. I think that's being a responsible parent.

in other countries (or immigrants to this country) are brainwashing and abusing their kids?

As long as their forcing their kids to adopt that lifestyle before their old enough to understand it.

Very similar to fundamentalist relgion worship.

to force on kids before they're old enough to understand it.

Would you consider feeding kids known carcinogens every day, when they are young and much more vulnerable to toxins than their parents are, to be child abuse? Because that what is happening every day in America. I find this much more outrageous and extreme than an educated vegan family.

"EWG’s computer-assisted analysis of more than 110,000 government-tested food samples and detailed government data on children’s food consumption found that multiple pesticides known or suspected to cause brain and nervous system damage, cancer, or hormone interference are common in foods many children consume. According to EWG’s report, “How ‘Bout Them Apples?,” hundreds of thousands of children may be at risk:

More than a quarter million American children, ages one through five, ingest a combination of 20 different pesticides every day. More than 1 million preschoolers eat at least 15 pesticides on a given day. For the 20 million American children ages 1-5, each child eats an average of eight pesticides every day."

http://www.healthychild.com/database/pesticides_pose_health_risks_for_children.htm

Now you're getting into the safety of food preparation and health issues.

I'd agree that food in this country needs to be better prepared and the amount of toxins used needs to be curbed.

But children don't have any more of a choice in that than anyone else who eats these foods, so the comparision isn't quite appropriate.

I am comparing what you see as an extreme lifestyle choice being inflicted on children to what I see as an extreme lifestyle choice being inflicted on children.

I haven't seen you show any evidence that there is, in fact, anything unhealthy or extreme about Veganism (and considering the study in the article was done on malnourished kids in Kenya, I think we can discount its validity).

I have a choice of what food I put in my mouth. If I had children, I would have a choice of what food goes in their mouths. I eat almost entirely organic. Despite people's assumptions, if you do it right, you can do it for the same cost as conventional - I buy raw grains and beans, I make most things from scratch. I make decisions on how to spend my money and time and adjust based on this choice. I decide it is worth spending more time and buying less prepared food to not poison myself every day. I am not a purist, and when I eat non-Organic I am making a conscious choice.

As more and more consumers buy and demand Organic, the cheaper and more widely available it becomes. In England, consumers successfully forced McDonalds to use only free-range eggs and organic milk

http://www.ananova.com/business/story/sm_737567.html?menu=

America is choosing to poison its children, cancer and obesity and heart problems are skyrocketing. That is appalling, IMHO. The fact that it is the norm does not make it okay. If you want to be concerned about kids and food, I think informed vegans should be the least of your worries.

have your kid eat a friend of his than it is to let him choose that when he's old enough to do so.

I'm not a vegan, but I am a vegetarian and my 2.5 year old, healthy, active, intelligent, well mannered son is a vegetarian too (as is my wife).

And I think your "belief system brainwashing" argument is utter BS too! It's called *raising your children*. You raise them to believe, in most circumstances, similar things that you hold dear: Compassion, love, respect, desire for knowledge, spiritual beliefs, tolerance, and, in the case of vegetarians, respect for other living creatures. It's part of the job. When the child grows up, of course, s/he can choose her/his own path and choose to toss what you've taught her/him, but instilling a sense of values in your child is not brainwashing, at least not in any negative sense that I can think of.

I find it amazing that parents put stuffed animals of cute cuddly creatures on their children's beds and the real thing their dinner plates.

david

P.S. Sorry for being so snippy! What am I in GD???

its not extremist to believe in compassion and knowledge and tolerance and love and respect. Those are things that every person should have with them and carry upon themselves throughout life.

Other things like religion and spirituality and lifestyle choices are just that - choices - that should be best left to the child to decide upon when they become old enough to fully grasp the value and importance of them.

Wouldn't you be more impressed if your child CHOSE to be a vegetarian for the same reasons you did, instead of just doing it because that was the only thing they knew?

Why do you want him to be a vegetarian, for health reasons or ethical reasons?

I'm sure its a mix of both, but they way you worded your post makes me believe a big part of the reason is ethics. So if you want him to make an ethical decision, he should choose that lifestyle and fully grasp the ethical reasoning behind it.

Otherwise, you're just raising someone in the vegetarian religion, who is a vegetarian just because their mommy and daddy were vegetarians, not because they wanted to be.

I don't get it!

Of course I'm raising him this way because of the ethics! Pffft on health. I don't believe that a vegetarian lifestyle is particularly more healthy that a very well planned out and considered omnivorous lifestyle.

I *DO* believe that a vegetarian lifestyle is far far FAR better for animals, humanity, the environment, the eco-system, and the "soul" than an omnivorous diet.

And again, I say the choice to eat meat is the choice he has to, and can, make. I set the moral base, and he can choose to stray from it when he has the capacity to do so. I don't know why in the world eating animals is the baseline in your arguments. Just because it's the easy thing to do at the grocery store.

And again, I reject your notion of diet and sprituality as being things to be chosen, they're values to be instilled exactly the same was as tolerance, love, respect and the rest. Again, when he has the capacity he can choose to violate any of them, but in the meantime, I try to teach him the "correct" path. I hope that he grows up and makes the right choices based on what I've taught him, but if he chooses differently (with all the facts I can provide) than that's life.

But if that means I'm a vegetarian cultist in your opinion, than I guess that's what I am. Come on down and have a glass of our fine vegan Kool-Aid (made with cane juice rather than granulated sugar)!

:)

david

Personally, I think if beef were banned it'd be a very good thing for humanity. Beef is just about the worst meat there is.

And the oceans are too overfished, that is also true.

And chickens are kept in deplorable conditions and shot up with steroids and other icky things.

That's also bad.

I'm not arguing whether or not a vegan or veggie lifestyle is ethically better. What I'm arguing is whether or not is it appropriate for a child to be forced into this lifestyle.

By the age of 13 or 14, they should be old enough to start deciding if a non-meat lifestyle is right for them. Until that time though, I don't think they should be deprived of poultry or fish.

The example that you set, as a parent, should be enough to allow them to determine whether or not they want to continue eating meat.

But if they never do it in the first place, you're really not giving them an opportunity to choose, now are you?

You can't raise your kids at all without, in a sense, "forcing" them into a lifestyle.

Thanks fishwax.

I'm saying that non-meat eating is the baseline. Meat-eating is the exception. That's the way he'll choose when he chooses it. I also don't give him cigarettes to smoke or put tequila in his sippy cup so that he can choose not to drink it later in life.

When he knows what meat is and conciously chooses to eat it in full knowledge of that fact, that's his business. In the meantime we eat healthy, non-meat alternatives. (and granted lots and lots of eggs and dairy - all free-range/organic, of course!)

david

"as soon as he's old enough to understand what meat is, after we've spent a lifetime telling him how horrible it is, and depriving it from him, he can choose whether or not to eat it."

Sounds an awful lot like how kids end up being religious wackos. I'm sure by the time they're 18 they're free to give up their religion too. I'd imagine most of them don't though, because they don't know any better.

I give up Magic Rat. You're right! It is a fundamentalist religious thing and YES I'm brainwashing my child to think that it's wrong, just like I brainwash him to think that murder, stealing, war is wrong and tolerance, compassion, et.al, is right.

You see these as different ideas, I see them as a full values system. I wonder if other parents disagree with me too. Am I *really* in the minority here (not on vegetarian stuff, but on the other values).

I also plan to teach him that fighting is horrible and do my best to have him believe that the military is horrible as well so that he will choose to not enter the military when the time comes. Yeah, I guess it *is* brainwashing.

But I believe, yes, I truly believe, that the Military Industrial Complex and the massive meat industry will do better to win my son over than what I teach him growing up.

david

On Edit: Removal of extra pic of my darling son! Isn't he adorable???

for some reason, instilling some morals is good, but others are "brainwashing."

Unless it is detrimental, any values you wish to instill in your child is your business (note: a good vegetarian/vegan diet is very healthy, and they will probably live longer. ANY badly planned diet is unhealthy).

If a vegan child wishes to eat meat when they become a teenager and are capable of understanding the situation (age variable, but that is a relative range), then they can make that decision then, just like being/not being religious and such.

Good Post.

I'm glad you finally admitted it. :D

Now, don't you feel better?

Thanks for helping me realize it!

:)

david

Now give your son a gun to play with or he won't know enough about them to make an informed decision when he gets old enough to join the military ....

Okay, I'll admit it -- my son is being raised vegetarian as well. We love the animals that live with us -- we don't eat them or related beings that others have killed. I honestly don't think Magic Rat's argument makes sense. Should we buy our kids all kinds of junk even if we believe in living simply just because we want them to be able to "make a choice" about their own lifestyle later?

on a trip to a slaughterhouse, and THEN ask them to make a choice.

I have a suspoicion that most children would be vegetarians if they witnessed how the animals they eat are raised and killed. But children are sheltered from those realities, and yet you say that putting a child on a vegetarian diet is brainwashing.

but some chicken or fish once in a while is appropriate. You're looking at it as if I'm saying 'don't feed them fruit or vegetables at all and just give them big macks and t-bone steaks 24/7'

I'm not advocating that at all. But there's a happy medium between a T-Rex and a koala bear. I'm sure its not that hard to find.

I've been a strict vegetarian for over 30 years. Maybe you have to be a vegetarian to understand how impossible it would be for me to stuff any dead animal part in my sweet little babies mouth. Kind of how you'd view shoving a cat turd in a babies mouth maybe? Both my boys grew up healthy. One son is almost 30 the other one 16. Vegetarianism is no big deal in my meat free household. There's no preaching here about the evils of meat eating or carrying on like you think. We seem to be in agreement about being vegetarians and like our animals alive. I must say I do get a real peaceful feeling from my diet choice.
In another thread freedom of choice was mentioned, I believe in free choice too. No animal has ever made the choice to be killed so he or she can be turned into your dinner.
Another thing about babies and choice...what gives someone the right to mutilate their baby boys penis because of some crack pot idea they happen to have? Surely THAT decision should be left up to the male child when he becomes an adult!

I didn't say you were denying them fruit or vegetables. What you are saying, though, is that there's a happy medium between Happy Meals on the one hand and veganism on the other, but all those happy media must include meat or it is an inappropriate imposition of your lifestyle on the child.

You're saying that providing a vegetarian diet for a baby is forcing them into a lifestyle. But everyone agrees that a one-year-old can't decide ethically whether or not to eat meat. Therefore, whether you give them meat or withhold meat, you are "forcing" them into a lifestyle.

That's the only point I'm making: It isn't as if by giving them meat you're giving them freedom of choice in their lifestyle.

How is them eating something that you are morally against (or against for health reasons if that is the case) depriving them of something?

All parents make decisions for their children. Many choices lead to an indoctrination of sorts.

Religion.
Race Relations.
Gay and Lesbian Rights.

So you should leave your children out of public school until they are 14 or so and then let them make up their own minds? Our choices form their opinions. Sometimes they stick. Others, in the case of my father, we (I) seem to be able to re-learn them.

If you raise them as vegan and at 14 they want to change wouldn't that be the same thing?

Just not by everyone. I haven't read the person saying vegan is so wrong's posts, but I did read your post. I'd have to say I respect you for keeping animals on an equal note of humans, and keep up the good work. Your cause has supporters out there, even if sometimes an opposing opinion is the most vocal ^_^

Not a lot of difference as far as I can tell, regardless of what you're programming them to become.

"It's like brainwashing"
Well geez, so are TV ads for things like Co-Co Puffs and Macaroni and Cheese and Lipitor. So is the govt's food pyramid (old and new). So are the 'weight loss challenges' on Dr. Phil & Oprah.

On the other hand, is the person who rejects an idea out of hand until some arbitrary point in the future when they think their kid is old enough to make a decision, brainwashed themselves? (By the way, it's the child who ultimately decides they're old enough to think for themselves, not the parent.)

I wonder what you know about a vegan diet. It is about as "extreme" a "lifestyle" as Weight Watchers or the diet of someone in training. Now, I'm not a vegan but I feed them from time to time, and I have to admit, the cuisine has its appeal. Ever heard of Mad Cow Disease?
:tinfoilhat:

the tv ads ARE brainwashing in the most complete sense of the word!

Raising a child with a healthy vegitarian diet that provides all the essential nutrients is not child abuse. And it is no more brainwashing than taking ones kid to church or telling them it's okay to eat meat or hunt and kill animals. Poeple have their own values they wan't to impress upon their children, deal with it.

In some cultures eating grubs is the norm, and someone from such a culture might wonder why we don't eat grubs and might consider not eating grubs as 'extreme' (i.e. not conforming to what they think people should do). Grubs provide protein, so you need to eat grubs. Yea, right, and throw in some fried cicadas.

it's "wrong" to impart nutritional beliefs to your children?? imparting beliefs of all kinds is NATURAL for parents!

are you a parent?

Veganism done right is perfectly healthy for kids.

"Child abuse" hardly.

Forcing kids to eat the rotting flesh of animals, THAT'S child abuse.

after I take him to a slaughter house.

Veganism child abuse :eyes: give me a break!

david

and both of my kids have been raised that way from birth (not vegan, ovo-lacto vegetarian). Both of my kids are really damn healthy. Meat eating doesn't have to mean McDonalds, but vegetarianism is clearly not child abuse.

When I was a young mother and a meat eater, I did not realize the harm that I was doing to my children by feeding them a meat-based diet. Unfortunately, they are now adults and still carnivores and I am a vegetarian. They still do not understand why I choose to not eat meat.

My daughter has a friend, and when they were both 8 yrs old, I learned her friend was a vegetarian. I asked her parents (good friends) about this (as I figured that they were also).

Turns out that her parents are not (and have never been) vegetarian. I asked why their daughter was, and they said it was her decision. Her folks are very supportive, and honor her requests.

I'm not sure if she is still vegetarian, but I was intrigued how an 8 yr old girl could even make that kind of decision.

Cheers
Drifter

It all started when we were driving to Vermont on vacation and stopped to get food at a rest stop. She and her 2 older sisters were sitting eating chicken fingers at the table next to us, when she became clearly angry at her sisters. Moving quickly to avoid bad behavior at the restaurant, we brought her and some food to our table. She then irately told us the 2 older ones had told her the chicken fingers were made from chickens. We quietly told her they were and she refused to eat them again.

We thought it was a fad, but she is now a 14 year old vegetarian. Her sisters actually both became vegetarians for several years, although the oldest is now an omnivore again.

Humans evolved as omnivorous. We have to eat a bit of everything. "Veganism" is unnatural.

Some anecdotal evidence: one of my wifes co-workers has been vegan since the beginning. Her health is totally fucked up. She has been brainwashed to the point were just smelling meet makes her retch.

Smelling the cooked flesh of one of your friends should make you retch.

LOTS of things we do are "unnatural" and lots of things we *don't* do are natural (rape, polygamy, murder, human subjugation, to name a few).

david

First of all, I don't have a problem with people been vegan. If it is their choice they can do whatever they want.

That said, we are talking about babies here. They don't have much of a choice. And they should get the best we have to provide them. And meat is not bad if it is not abused. Babies should have a balanced diet.

Your emotional "argument" is totally empty. "Friendship" has nothing to do with it. Should I eat my enemies? According to your argument it shouldn't be that difficult.

Finally, all your examples of "natural" acts are intra-specific and area subjected to a series of taboos that have nothing to do with what we are talking about here. When I said "natural" I was referring to the fact that the evolutionary pressure for an omnivorous diet is quite strong. (It can be argued that most of the examples you give are also the result of evolutionary pressure, but that pressure is much, much weaker than the one that compels us to eat meat).

:) My own fault, of course.

First of all, of COURSE you should eat your enemies! Why else do you make enemies... delicious, tasty enemies. Mmmmmmmmmmm

/drool

My point is that your friend *isn't* "brainwashed" your friend is thinking clearly, perfectly. If she hates the thought of eating meat and believes that animals shouldn't be eaten then it's perfectly correct for her to feel ill when she smells the roasted flesh of these animals she loves. I've been a vegetarian for 10 years, and most of the time meat still smells good to me (well not the meat as much as the spices, cooking process, etc.), but the sight of it does totally gross me out. I consider that a moral victory on my part, but maybe it's just double think. Who knows. I'm happy with it, so what does it matter.

As far as the evolutionary aspect, I don't claim to be a HUGE evolution scholar, but isn't the notion of beating the sh*t out of, if not killing, a person who threatens my family also pretty evolutionarily obvious?

Isn't a man having sex with as many women as possible (willing or otherwise) in order to propogate his genes every bit (actually, I believe, FAR more so) as demanded by evolution as eating meat? Maybe not, but I can tell you my sex drive is about 100,000 x more powerful than my desire to eat meat. I don't have sex with everything that moves and I don't eat meat. My point is simply that as a society (and all societies do this) we do lots of things that are unnatural and deny lots of things that are natural. Taboo sure, but it's all part of who we are as a human race right now.

Anyway, I forget what we're arguing about right now. Alls I know is my son is one helluva healthy, smart kid, and he doesn't eat meat.

david

They're the tallest in their peer groups, smart and creative, dancers and athletes, and never taken antibiotics (except when my youngest got Lyme disease from a tick bite). 4-legs, you're already used to the level of anger being directed toward you here. People are very threatened by the "other" and you've declared yourself other because you don't eat like they do. That makes you suspect. And, because they were raised to enjoy eating meat, they think you must be torturing your kids to be raising them in any other way.

The way it works in my household is this: we don't cook meat in our home. I don't want that stuff sliming up my pots and pans, stinking up my house, or disrupting my home's peaceful energy. Outside of the house, once you're about 10 or so, do as you will. My two oldest would never touch the stuff; my youngest partakes of an occasional hot dog--and knowingly pays for it with the accompanying stomach ache.

BTW, any recipes you'd care to share for preparation of enemies? Holiday dishes, in particular, would be appreciated.

I think that's the way with a lot of people. We're all fighting against acceptance of something we know to be true: it bothers us that our taste-buds override our conciences. I'm not saying it's true of everyone, but I think that many poeople, like me, are, as you say, threatened by vegetarians because deep down, they also have a hard time justifying their diet.

If only they knew how easy it is to be a vegetarian these days!

The rules in your house are exactly what I expect mine will be. I'm not going to cook meat, but, once they're old enough to decide on their own, and we've made the required trip to the slaughterhouse, then if they want to eat meat elsewhere, that's their choice. Will I be disappointed, sure! But I'd be more disappointed if they became Republicans.

Why would anyone eat a hot dog when perfectly tasty veggie-dogs are available???

Sorry, Crowdance, my Enemies Recipies (I have a whole book!) are a family secret. I can't share them, though I will say two words:

SOY SAUCE

david

I think he wants to tell us that he's his own person. I know all about that! He tried to do it with steak, but, well, that's a lot harder to digest than a hot dog.

SOY SAUCE. Yep, I think I hear ya'....

....peaceful energy? WTF is that?

I doubt the knowledge would mean much to you.

.........I once tried sitting in a circle with a bunch of loony friends on a big rock in Sedona, AZ so that I could feel Mother Earth's energy, but couldn't keep my mind off the girl across from me.

Oh, I felt the energy all right, but rest assured Mother Earth had nothing to do with it.

...with one amazing substance that is evolutionarily sound, completely natural, harms nothing and no one, is absolutely 100% free, and is, in fact, the best we can provide for them. They get this balanced diet from human breast milk. No meat required.

Everyone here who is a parent makes choices to expose or not expose their child to beliefs, lifestyles, values, ethics, and mores. Choosing one does not necessarily negate another. I'm raising my kid Kemetic. That doesn't mean I'm simultaneously raising him to hate other religions. I keep him away from candy and snacks and over-processed foods when I can. I'm not brainwashing him any more than I'd be "brainwashing" him into thinking that bathing is a good thing and not-bathing is a bad thing.

Plus...we are more than the sum total of animal instincts. We have the ability to make choices based on more than urges and instincts. We have the capacity for reason. And the capacity for reason includes the ability to reason that not eating meat is a choice some people want to make.

When I said "babies" I was referring to babies, toddlers and small children, all in a big bundle. Of course babies (in the normal english use) can get everything they need from breast milk. I agree with that.

All children are "brainwashed" by their parents to a certain degree. In some cases calling it "brainwashing" is quite extreme, in others it is not so. I know of several examples.

And yes, we are more than our animal instincts. I, as a secular humanist, do accept that. But his goes beyond animal instincts. The human body evolved to have certain requirements. Of course we can reason them away, some of them at least. But are we doing the right thing to our bodies?

so animals get married?

You know what I mean. I guess promiscuity would be the better term.

But yeah, I guess some animals do "get married" though NEVER in red states!

david

ad nauseum.

Veganism is no more unnatural than the completely natural act of factory farms, slaughtering animals, then having to cook them before we eat them with a knife and a fork.

Or are you a true naturalist that tackles your cow and tears into its raw flesh for dinner? If so, I'll stand corrected.

And just because someone who doesn't know how to take care of themself goes vegan, doesn't mean vegan=unhealthy. I'm vegan, and I'm healthier than most people I know.

It's not brainwashed to think about where your meat comes from and not like the smell of it because of that. I find it more brainwashed to love meat and not take even a second to consider the brutal treatment your hamburger had to go through before it became hamburger.

I was quite specific when I talked about "natural". I was referring to the evolutionary pressure to eat meat.

I am as appalled as you are by the way farm animals are treated in this country. I come from a country where all cows are free range and are treated much better that in the US. The problems with factory farms should be fixed, for both ethical and environmental reasons.

Regarding the cooking of meat as unnatural, well, the cooking of vegetables is also unnatural in that sense. We cook for many reasons and I think we could also argue about it for hours. Personally, I don't have a problem one way or the other. I can eat raw or cooked. Some things are better one way, some are better another way. I don't go hunting my cow and it it raw, although I think I could be able to slaughter it and then prepare it. I used to do it with rabbits without much qualms. (If my wife ever reads this she will kill me.. :-) We donate to a rabbit and guinea pig rescue, but she still love my civet de lapin).

This girl I know just provides anecdotal evidence, as I said in my original message. There is pretty good evidence that her health problems are related to the fact that she was vegan from the moment she was born.

Finally, let me say that I don't eat burgers and that I think meat consumption should be minimal. The production of meat is an environmental waste that should be kept to a minimum. But from that to
be vegan there is a long, long way..

Regards..

The treatment of the animals that become our meat products has nothing to do with what we are biologically set up to eat.

We have forward-facing eyes with excellent color vision and depth perception, canines, and a single stomach. We are omnivores, but our basic set-up is much more attuned to being able to consume raw meat than raw plants. Unlike say, cows or deer, we cannot extract nutritional value from most plants.

I've seen more than a few teenagers who abstain from animal products as they are going through puberty because they don't want to eat animals. Their growth is quite simply stunted, leaving them shorter than average with inferior muscle mass and even smaller bones. The one exception was someone I knew who consumed almost as many supplements as the guys on our football team. Those made up for the stuff he wasn't getting.

Look at his forward-facing eyes! A vicious killer that one!

Why can't he live in peace with all of Earth's creatures, like the gentle shark.



Awwww, isn't he cuddly?

All sarcasm aside, the vegan=unhealthy argument is about as valid as saying that meat-eaters are unhealthy because of all the McDonald's they eat. It is possible to live a semi-healthy lifestyle while consuming meat. It is also possible (and much more likely) to lead a healthy lifestyle on a vegetarian or vegan diet, if done correctly.

Humans can do a lot things to devolve if they want to. The point is that for many of us, the options are there to eat a healthy vegan diet, and yet we continue to support a practice which, regardless of its inherent cruelty, is making great strides in destroying the planet.

Koalas are pretty mean, though, despite being cuddly!

:)

david

frugivores.

Regular meat eating leads to constipation and a host of degenerative diseases.

my dad lives on a mostly beef diet, and he has a pacemaker, high blood pressure, kidney stones, an aortic aneurysm (just got out of the hospital a month ago) and acid reflux disease.

without meat? I challenge you to travel to Mongolia and try to survive just on vegetables. Good luck.

chase down a gazelle on foot. Louis Leakey once tried, unsuccessfully, to eat a rabbit using only what humans had evolved with. We don't have the teeth or the claws to break a prey animal open or skin it.

What allowed humans to eat meat on a regular basis--not just scavenge what the lions left--wasn't physical adaptation. It was the ability to make and use tools. That's a cultural, not a genetic, adaptation.

component. The ability to make tools is more than culture. It has a genetic component as well.

Did you see the teeth pictures? Did you? Huh?

This is getting really tiring addressing the same fucking point over and over again... :eyes:

That argument is irrelevant. There's lots of things we're naturally meant to do (monogamous relationships are not "natural"). As a more evolved creature, I would hope that you'd realize you have a choice in your diet.

but if you THINK, really THINK, about what you are eating and you AREN'T disgusted, then you are the one who has the problem. Have you ever really looked at that piece of chicken and saw the veins and the striated musculature. Like someone else said above, if you could take a live animal YOURSELF and tear it apart with your teeth, then you are certainly doing what is natural to you. Otherwise, as 99.999999% of all meat eaters, you are eating something that is disguised to take away any direct guilt in the act of what that animal went through. As far as brainwashing, it is you who have had a lifetime of it and have become numb to what you are participating in.

Veganism, as with any diet, is unhealthy if it's not properly administered. In this world of fast food, pretzels and potato chips are considered "vegan" for the most part, but you try to live off this junk and you will become very unhealthy very quickly. On the other hand, even if you ate the best, freshest, most organic cuts of meat you are still ingesting scads of puss and uric acid (yes, that's what it sounds like- urine in the blood- that exists in all animals, but not humans and gathers and crystalizes at the joints and causes rheumatism and arthritis, lovely) not to mention cholesterol.

As far as "unnatural", you must have this misconception that meat has evolved to be cooked, killing any possible nutritious values it could have.

I was wondering how long it would take until the "better-than-thou" crowd would show up.

To tell you the truth, I think it would be a total waste of time to try an answer your message, to take it apart piece by piece and show that your veganism is little more than a religious belief.

Cheers..

defined as fruit.

I suggest you refer to the scientific evidence and not to the propaganda that you find from either side of the issue. Hominids evolve eating anything they could get their hands on, from fruits and nuts to ants and carrion.

Are you for real? So you think Paul McCartney abused his children?>

I'm not a vegetarian, never will be. But it is just flat stupid to assume children need meat to be healthy. Stupid. Why would you say something so stupid? I would bet more children are missing the nutrients they should get from fruits and vegetables than vegetarian children missing protein and calcium. There isn't anything in the world wrong with being a vegetarian. Why would you support clogging up a kid's heart with cholesterol anyway?

I am an omnivore, my sister is vegan. Most vegans (and probably vegetarians) have made their decision for moral reasons, they think it is immoral to eat meat or animal products.

Some claim it is wrong to force their views on their children.

But don't parents always to some extent force their children to follow their moral choices? For example, what about parents "forcing" their children to go to church? And we all see some of the negatives in our society that stem from organized religion. So is that abuse because it could have a negative impact on the child?

Of course not, vegans (just like religious people) believe they are doing the right thing by imparting their morals to their children.

I say look at the child. If he/she is growing "normally" and has "normal" development we can conclude that there is no physiological harm from being vegan or vegetarian. There is probably a social impact (can't eat what their friends are, is "different") but the same could be said for a child who is diabetic or follows another religion which has dietary guidelines different than mainstream. We wouldn't say a Jehovah's Witness child was abused just because the parents never let him go to a birthday party.

about vegetarianism.

Who funded the "study"?

...we should find out who "funded" the good professor :)

point?

I can't believe anyone can make a statement like that by using data from starving children in Kenya! That's the most rediculous thing I've ever heard.

david

I don't like children much (they are fine as a concept, I just prefer not to be around them if possible), and I *loathe* vegans.

That being said, this study was crap science, and failed to distinguish vegans from vegetarians. Kids can do lacto-ovo-veggie with no problems.

I suppose it's possible to raise a child vegan as long as you don't wean him or her until age 2 or so.

Thank you SO very much for lumping us all together. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

That would be....what....not racist...veganphobic?

I have a similar phobia in regards to Fundies. I know not all of you are barking moonbats, but far too many are. C'est la vie.

Perhaps you should work on that.

There was no mention of either in the article.

Vegetarians, especially vegans, can become badly malnourished if they don't pay extra attention to make sure they're getting from vegetables what meat usually supplies. I think that supplementation with B12 is also a requirement.

This kind of thing would be a problem in Kenya; not necessarily the USA or UK.

Diet can't confer moral superiority, no matter what diet is followed. It's up to the parents to make sure their children are fed well. Kwashiorkor is far worse than eating Lunchables -- but no child has to face either fate.

--p!

as they were in comparing malnourished kids in Kenya to educated vegans in developed countries. One extreme or the other, I guess.

Wonder who paid off that nutritionist for her "expert" opinion.

:eyes:

but thanks anyway for taking time to marginalize my opinion.

Maybe he just *might* wake-up!

:grr:

:kick:

Equate to eating fast food every day. Just beacause you're a meat eater doesn't mean you feast on McDonalds every day. I eat the flesh of an animal every day, but I haven't eaten fast food in over a year.

The hamburger meat oh so loved once (and yes, I used to LOVE hamburger!) is comprised of approx. 1,000 different cows. If you are into meat, etc. try buying free range beef and poultry.

They are now feeding chickens the spinal cord of cattle (madcow anyone?).

I am not anti-meat and I eat some of it but not a whole lot being I really don't care much for it.

However, the sad reality of the meats being eating today is far different than it was 20 years ago.

I have just ordered a copy of Fast Food Nation and have read Deadly Feasts. :scared: to death I am oh yes.

P.S. on edit - these facts are discussed in the film "Supersize Me" btw ...

:kick:

and ever since the mad cow scare I have NEVER eaten ground beef!

Or just whoring for grants. Either way, she's outed.

Edited to change sex. That'll teach me to read the full article first.

explaining what exactly vegan parents need to supplement their vegan children with in order to make sure they grow up healty...

... I mean besides 2 spoonfulls of "meat" a day.

Cool that Paul jumped in. :)

david

The findings aren't completely off the wall, either. How many vegans do you know who eat Marmite or Vegemite? I've never met one.

I like Paul McCartney, too, but he's not a nutritionist. Calling "rubbish" isn't exactly adding to the debate. Since Paul is one of the highest-visibility vegetarians in the world, he has a tremendous capacity to educate the "vedge" community if, indeed, nutrient deficiencies become common.

If nothing else, this study should underscore the need for nutritional diligence among veg(etari)ans -- and followers of other dietary regimens as well. It's very easy to miss getting essential nutrients when one restricts their diet, no matter what the restriction is. The consequences are far worse for children. Veg(etari)anism is not perfect by any means; more studies, even hostile ones, can lead to better meat-free foods and eating habits.

--p!

marmite, it was a spokeswoman from the British Dietetic Association, if I read it correctly.

But you're correct, of coruse - in the final analysis it should be a good call for nutritional diligence, which is always a good idea.

I've had vegemite once. Bleh! But I guess I could eat just about anything if necessary.

david

delicious! but I don't think vegans eat it because it's not vegan. It is, however, vegetarian.

It's tricky being vegan, and parents have to be extremely careful to ensure that kids get complete protiens, among other things. Equating veganism to child abuse is like equating fast food to child abuse. In some cases- fast food IS child abuse, and IMHO, parents who allow their children to grow obese on the stuff ought to receive a visit from CSD- just as parents whose kids show signs of undernourishment from a vegan diet.

Now, if the profesor wants to talk ethics- maybe he should point her high powered perception at the fast food industry- which spends billions of dollars/pounds per year to promote unhealthy eating that results in an array of childhood diseases. I don't see any vegans out there doing that.....

veganism:fast food; that is patently untrue

fast food has no redeeming qualities nutritionally; veganism does

fast food has no option of a healthy diet as it is currently constituted; veganism does

meat-free diets are INHERENTLY healthier in most cases anyway

veganism is not a health impediment that must be worked around; it is counter to general american culture and thus comparison will be made between the standard american diet and the standard american diet veganized--that is hopelessly unrealistic and bears the same fallacy as that of the fool who is the subject of this thread

in general, the cultural argument is flawed because those who are vegan are so culturally 'weird' as not to have these kinds of problems

I am not vegan

I agree with most of what you've said, but my point was directed at cases (and these cases crop up from time to time) where generally well meaning but "unsophisticated" parents allow thier children to develop nutritional diseases.

To the extent that this happens (as it does on an epidemic scale with fast food) it's child abuse. I think the logic is sound.

Throw in another big chunk of humanity, as well. There are LOTS and lots of countries who don't have access to meat.

They have learned to get by without it, and they are doing pretty well. You can live extremely well on a vegan diet. I know. We've been doing it for several years.

India, by the way, is on its way up. They are expected to be the rising star of the 21st century, NOT the US. I'd like to see him explain that.

A lot of Hindus eat meat, and meat consumption in India has been increasing as their economy has been growing. Certainly there is a lot of vegetarianism in India, but it's not a meat-free zone.

The traditional kshatriya class ate meat, since they were often hunters. The caste system may have been abolished, but the traditions are maintained.

Most areas of the world that have little access to meat do NOT enjoy general good health. Babies in these countries regularly die from marasmus and kwashiorkor, two major forms of pediatric malnutritionm both of which can be alleviated by eating meat OR properly selected vegetarian food. Lacking much money, meat, or an educated class which wants to evangelize for vegetarianism, these problems persist. Just giving them meat is usually easier and cheaper -- again, poverty being the root problem.

--p!

They eat dairy products and unfertilized eggs.

I can't think of any world culture or subculture that voluntarily eats vegan (aside from extreme poverty, where all they can afford is beans and rice) except for Buddhist monastics.

OUr town sponsored a group of Tibetan Buddhist monks in a cultural exchange. We expected them to be vegetarians. Oh, no. The first thing they wanted to eat was MEAT! And then they got hooked on pizza. They were at Burger King every few days, eating hamburgers. Rather astonished, we asked them: "aren't you vegetarian?" They said that at home they WERE vegetarian, but only because they couldn't get any meat. So when they leave the monastery, they gorge on meat whenever they can.

Of course, this only applies to Tibetan monastics. I think it's different in China.

Humans are omnivores (eaters of plants and animal tissue)and have teeth that belong functionally and structurally somewhere between the extremes of specialization attained by the teeth of carnivores and herbivores.

humans have now created a world that obviates the need to eat meat.

Evolution also decrees that all weak people die and only the strong survive. We don't live by that credo anymore, but spend HUGE amounts of our resources as a human "family" figuring out how to "save" those who are born with shitty genetics.

This whole "teeth by evolution" argument is so tired, so very tired. We've colectively developed a world where people with poor vision see and people no longer have to slaughter fellow animals to survive.

david

What we are doing makes very little sense, since we use so much of our best land to grow food for cattle that we don't have enough human food. And that is extrememly inefficient. We get about 15% of the calories back in beef from the grain/grass that we feed the cattle.

drew such conclusions from this study without taking into account numerous variables a "leading US nutritionist."

Nothing wrong with it at all. This article seems to assume that vegan people are raised by their parents that way when in fact the reality is very different. Most vegans choose to be vegan, teens and kids that are vegan, most of them CHOSE to be vegan. I'm 16 and I chose to be vegan, my parents eat meat and the rest of my family eats meat. Nothing wrong with the content of African diets, the only worry is the AMOUNT that they eat is too low which is the reason for their sickness. People in Kenya have no choice but to be vegan because they are too poor to afford meat. This article is totally pointless and wants to attack people who seek a healthier lifestyle. Alot of nutritionists agree that meat should be eaten less because a high-meat and high-fat diet is the number one cause of heart disease and heart attacks.

perfectly healthy. It's difficult to get B12 from plant sources, and it used to be harder.

It's also possible to have a perfectly healthy meat-eating diet. "Possible" isn't what's discussed.

I think the article doesn't say that that all vegans are abusing their kids, but that some are. If you don't take pains to be informed about what you should eat and you don't have access to an adequate diet, you can seriously mess yourself up. (Posters above constantly say "properly done", "if done right", etc.)

Kenyans typically don't have access to huge supplies of vitamin or other dietary supplements. Under such conditions, being a vegan is dangerous.

I am not a Vegan or a Vegetarian (though I have been Veggie at times in my life), but I have spent a lot of time thinking about nutrition with my almost 2 year old daughter.

It is hard, but quite possible to raise children on a Vegan diet. You do, however, have to be very vigilant about nutrient intake.

What ticks me off about this is that she is calling this unethical when people are being encouraged every day to start their kids on ever increasing amounts of solid foods at 4 months or even younger of age. Breastmilk is supposed to be the primary source of an infant's nutrition for the first year of life with limited solids introduced no earlier than six months of age. Not everyone can do that because they have to work (and can't pump), or have difficulties with breastifeeding, but there are lots of people out there getting misinformed thanks, in part, to the propaganda of the companies producing formula.

Knowing what I now know (and, yes, I did a LOT of research--I am an ivory tower-ish geek), I have a hard with someone attacking the health of vegan kids or any kids with a broad paintbrush like this. Given the percentage of kids raised vegan vs. the percentage of kids who are barely are never breastfed I think the focus could be elsewhere.

But what do I know? I am just a hippy-dip communist liberal cultural elitist who studies dead white males and females and sometimes indoctrinates university students for a living. EEK!


Edited to add: I purposefully withheld meat from my daughter's diet until almost one year of age introducing it very slowly because it is hard on the system. So I am sympathetic to Vegan and Veggie parents.

in any shape, form or fashion.
She is healthy. She chooses healthy foods. She will eat chicken every now and then, but her favorite foods are beans and vegetables.
She is healthy. She is smart. She definitely isn't abused.
It's her preference although we do cater to it and don't force the issue...if she prefers beans, well, we give her beans,lol.
Some people may just be wired to eat healthy if given the chance.
Linking abuse to these types of eating patterns? Puleeze.

But I'm sure there are plenty of vegan parents who would punish their child if they ever thought about eating a hamburger or asked to have tuna fish.

As long as the child chooses to be vegan or vegetarian, fine. But parents who force their children to eat a certain way are, IMO, commiting a mild form of child abuse.

I've seen vegetarian parents cram mashed avocado into their screaming kid's mouth. I've seen kids grow up food neurotics because they were forced to eat certain foods they despised. I've seen kids who were restricted from eating sweets go sneaking off to gorge on candy when their parents aren't watching. Why are parents such overbearing food dictators? It leads to a generation of people who grow up having all sorts of emotional weirdness about food.

As a parent, I'd just set a plate with a lot of different foods on it in front of my kids, and I'd let them eat what they chose. No restrictions, no forcing, just let them eat what they wanted. they went through a few odd kicks during their teen years (one of them adopting a strict no-fat diet) but then they evolved into adults who are slim, happy eaters who enjoy their food. With no neuroses.

is it child abuse to withhold it?

Veganism is superior to a meat-eaters diet for a variety of health reasons. Looking out for your child's nutrition (and doing it correctly, not like the extreme stories we hear of parents starving their children) is not child abuse.

And I can't imagine a vegan parent punishing their child for asking for a hamburger. When I was a kid, I wanted spaghetti for dinner every day, but even though my parents said no, I wasn't punished for asking.

....grass.

Everyone should eat what they like to eat, including the kids. But, as with all things in life, even McDonalds should be done only in moderation. JMHO.

I'm proud of you.

Why don't you jump in that lion cage and see the lion bow in complete and utter awe of your accomplishment.

Did I say "bow?" I meant "leap on you a devour you." So much for your food chain...

(By the way, might DOES NOT make right).

....and BTW, who put the lion in the cage?

Hurts admitting you're number 1, doesn't it.

And by my example, you're NOT number 1, you just think you are.

Seems to be a common problem of 'murikans these days.

....still doesn't change the fact that man is the only animal that has figured out how to destroy the earth.

Man is indeed number 1 livingphtoto, and for that reason bears ultimate responsibility for his actions.

And as for your example, why would I want to jump in a cage with a lion? The only way the lion would have me for dinner would be if another human threw me in the cage against my will. Hence, your example is meaningless.

Oh, and for the record, I'm far less 'murikan than most here.

"Man is indeed number 1 livingphtoto, and for that reason bears ultimate responsibility for his actions." Exactly.

And the point about the lion cage is to address those people who talk about how they fought and fought and fought their way to the top of the food chain, therefore they have the right to "rape the Earth" (with apologies to Ann Coulter).

And I'm referring to the typical 'murikan attitude of, "I'm from Murika! I can do whatever the fuck I want! Yeehaw!"

It has two ends that come together.

You might think you're at the top of the chain but remember that while you're eating some things there are others that are using you for food.

Mosquitoes, flies, any other number of blood-sucking creatures, parasites, microbes, etc.

And when we die most of us will be food for other animals.

We're not the top, we're just a link in the chain.

And I DO think that forcing a kid to adopt a vegan diet (no milk, eggs, cheese) is indeed child neglect. Children are picky eaters to begin with. By denying them a full range of protein sources, you are restricting them to only a few choices. what if they dont like peanuts and beans? Then they're getting no protein at all.

or any number of other things which are essential to growing bodies?

What you do is *force* them (well force may be too strong a term). But the fact of the matter is children don't make decisions because of what's good for them, they make decisions because of what tastes good and what they want.

My son would eat chocolate all day if I let him and nothing else, and he'd die of malnutrition, but I *FORCE* him to eat other nutritious foods (and try to make them nicer to eat, of course) because he needs them.

This whole children choosing food thread is kinda silly if you've ever had children.

I'm arguing these points as an ovo/lacto vegetarian, though, so I have to admit ignorance of how hard it is to raise a child as a vegan, I presume it's about 100,000x as hard as being a vegetarian, which is absurdly easy.

david

You don't need to force your kids to eat healthy foods. One study was carried about about 15 or 20 years ago where a group of children were allowed to eat whatever they wanted. They were provided with a large variety of choices, including everything from candy to veggies. During the first week, the kids tended to go for the high-sugar foods. But as the days went on, the kids began to eat a little of everything, and by the end of the study, when the scientists tallied up what the kids had eaten, it turned out they had, of their own accord, eaten a balanced diet. Without cajoling or an nazi behavior.

I would suggest to you, as a parent, that if your kid hates broccoli, that's okay. so don't force him to eat broccoli. offer him snow peas or carrots or creamed spinach. believe me, he WON'T eat candy all day unless you make it clear that candy is forbidden fruit, and then he'll crave it.

true story here: my sons went for a sleepover at another family's house. Now, this family used to constantly brag to us about how THEIR kids never ate sugar, and that we were neglectful parents for allowing ours to eat candy. The next day, my kids came home and reported what happened at the sleepover. In the middle of the night, while the parents were asleep, their kids woke up mine and said: "Let's have a party." And they pulled up a secret stash of candy bars. My sons watched in amazement as those kids gorged on a dozen candy bars, then hurried swept up the evidence and stuffed it in the trash can. My sons told me, "Mom, they eat more candy than we EVER did!"

To this day, my sons almost never eat candy. Not because it's ever been forbidden to them. but because they don't think of it as anything special, and they have no craving for it.

I feel the same way about wine. That's why French kids don't binge drink -- they get wine at meals, so it's no big deal.

I wish we could nominate responses to the home page.

But I must take exception to the statement "That's why French kids don't binge drink -- they get wine at meals, so it's no big deal."
In my experience French and various other European in their late teens and early 20's enjoy tying one on as much as peers of other nationalities

I've been in bars in vienna with 14 year olds, switzerland and many other european countries with 16 year olds, and they all sit and sip wine and beer and dance and act like perfectly normal human beings.

I cannot IMAGINE being in a bar with 14 year olds in the US and have it not turn into a drunken childrens party with screeching and vomiting galore.

Because choosing my own childhood diet caused me to gain a seriously unhealthy weight problem :)

You know, in all honesty, it wasn't really due to my natural inclinations, but my social obligations. It's true, it shouldn't be forced per say, but so long as parents are allowed to bellow religion on children they should be allowed to unconditionally be allowed to choose what they eat. It wasn't nature, it wasn't genetics, and it wasn't instinct, which drove me to eat absolutely anything, but the stigma from other children who had grown up in corporate america. The stigma of dramatically religious parents who, although never told me what to eat, told me how to live. We are no longer ourselves but our parents when they make ANY choices for us...so I say, we should accept another's rights to a vegan lifestyle or accept no lifestyle.

I find it interesting that in other countries which are deprived of a booming business trend, they tend to have more adult AND children vegans. I agree with scientific study, but I think in no way we're eligable to say what is natural when peer pressure is involved (both from friends and the infamous 'my child is going to grow up like superman' parents)

Back when I was weaning my son, I read about some of the things that are eaten in other countries by babies who are transitioning to solid food. I almost vomited while reading about it! Yet in other countries, children would eat these bizarre (to me) concoctions because, well, it's what they eat there. They don't get other options, and they're hungry. So I've begun to wonder if picky eaters aren't created by household habits. My son happily devours vegetables because I made sure that he didn't have access to junk food early on. I knew he wouldn't be "shielded" from junk food forever, but at least it created a good foundation for his tastes. These days, I've seen this kindergartener, time after time, turn down an Oreo in favor of something more healthy. Doesn't mean he never enjoys an Oreo; he simply prefers other things. I can't for the life of me get him to finish a candy bar, LOL, I invariably do it for him!:p

Are children picky eaters universally, or is it an American thing? It makes me wonder if it's perhaps something our culture created.

Things that we adults enjoy (like broccoli) can be unpleasantly bitter for a child. And how many kids like the taste of cilantro? I know there are many foods i like now that i hated as a child. i grew up in a household that ate all sorts of weird stuff -- sea cucumbers and 'thousand-year' eggs and various varieties of dried fungi and extremely spicy dishes with whole chili peppers. All of which i now love as an adult, but couldn't eat as a kid. i think the taste buds have to mature a little.

as for picky eaters -- well, it's not just kids. i've run into some picky adults, and they drive me totally nuts. i tend to think they're the same people who are so uptight and unadventurous about everything that they don't know how to enjoy life.

Show me someone who'll dig into any weird dish with gusto, and I'll show you someone who's fun to be around.

My son has been absolutely crazy about broccoli since he first tried it at however-many-months of age he was. I myself abhor broccoli, I have to force myself to eat it because, um, well, it's unpleasantly bitter. LOL I think my kid will grow up to be more fun than I am, he eats and drinks so many things that other kids won't touch. When we drive by McDonald's, he always comments that their food is made from slurry. Yes, it's a Mom-n-Dad term, but he once tried one of their burgers and hated it. He thinks slurry is just the right word!

Sometimes adults can be worse, you're right. My brother can't eat food that has co-mingled on his plate. He eats each item separately. What a flake. Well, he's a Republican, I wonder if that means anything???
;)

are generally created by households who don't enforce some structure. Every kid will have his moments, but the kid who will only eat macaroni & cheese and pizza is created, not born.

A bear skull; bears are true omnivores, designed for both fruits and vegetables and meat:

http://www.naturesown.com/fc%20cave%20bear%20skull%20$3900.JPG

The skull of a true vegetarian, the horse:



The skull of a tiger, and obligate carnivore designed for eating mostly meat:



Now, look at your own teeth. Which skull contains teeth which most closely resemble your own?

so do bonobos.
It suggests that we were meant to be omnivorous, eating both meat and plants.

Our teeth show a combination of both grinding and tearing capabilities.

Serious question? I thought it was mostly bugs. Do they actually hunt mamals and eat them raw? I didn't know that if it's true.

Curious, curious...

david

"In some sites, the consumption of meat (per chimp colony) may reach one ton annually"

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~stanford/chimphunt.html

Interesting read...

they can live on a completely vegetarian diet or they can incorporate meat into their diets when it's available. Cats are predatory, chimps are opportunists.

In other words they are opportunistic just like their Human cousins, what a surprise :shrug:

Now that human population is starting to out-pace the earth's capacity to produce meat as a staple, does rest of the civilization become followers in the ethics of the Donner Party, or turn into vegans, or even decide birth control really is not such a bad idea after all :think:

ON edit from that link
(snip)
My own preconception was that hunting must be nutritionally based. After all, meat from monkeys and other prey would be a package of protein, fat and calories hard to equal from any plant food. I therefore examined the relationship between the odds of success and the amount of meat available with different numbers of hunters in relation to each hunter's expected payoff in meat obtained. That is, when is the time, energy and risk (the costs) involved in hunting worth the potential benefits, and therefore when should a chimp decide to join or not join a hunting party? And how does it compare to the costs and benefits of foraging for plant foods ? These analysis are still underway because of the difficulty in learning the nutritional components of the many plant foods in the chimps' diverse diet , but the preliminary results have been surprising. I expected that as the number of hunters increased, the amount of meat available for each hunter would also increase. This would have explained the social nature of hunting by Gombe chimpanzees. If the amount of meat available per hunter declined with increasing hunting party size (because each hunter got smaller portions as party size increased), then it would be a better investment of time and energy to hunt alone rather than join a party. The hunting success rates of lone hunters is only about 30 %, while that of parties with 10 or more hunters is nearly 100 %. As it turned out, there was no relationship, either positive or negative, between the number of hunters and the amount of meat available per capita. This may be because even though the likelihood of success increases with more hunters in the party, the most frequently caught prey animal is a one kilogram baby colobus monkey. Whether shared among 4 hunters or 14, such a small package of meat does not provide anyone with much food.
(snip)
http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~stanford/chimphunt.html

This is also quite revealing, this shows that disposition for a genetic makeup similar to ours preys carnivorously (and politically) on other species similar to it's own.

Btw I try to keep my meat consummation to a minimum, but monkey meat sounds worse than Cows brain, or pickled pigs feet and would never be in my diet

for food. They are opportunists and prefer termites but some Chimp tribes will hunt for meat.

your own? Chimps and Bonobos have pronounced canines very unlike ours.

......you should follow me around for 24 hours.

also grow continuously to grind down the tough fiber they eat. They even occasionally have to be "floated" (ground down) with a metal rasp - when kept in captivity. A horse's teeth may look a little like human teeth, but human teeth do not grow.

I have a dog with impressive canine teeth and my dog likes fruits and vegetables along with meat. Canine teeth are for killing, not for eating. Humans kill with the hands.

has also evolved to allow speech?

They do NOT look healthy at all.

I think the whole reasoning is wrong. There is no comparison between just eating starch and eating a variety of vegetables. But I still think it is unethical since humans must have a variety of foods, including animal protein.

Cheers..

My son is now 5 and has never cared for meat. Never. (My husband and I both eat meat.) At age 4 he told me, "Mommy, I just can't eat something that had a face." He'll eat any tofu-based meatlike product, but not real meat! He's a tender-hearted little liberal who has never so much as pulled the cat's tail. Animal lover from birth. Part of his refusal is the flavor, but a large part of it is simply and genuinely humanitarian. My husband's family are all vegans, but they haven't influenced our son -- they only met him once, when he was a baby (they live in the UK). He has no idea that they are vegans. So I wonder if any of this is genetic?

I guess my point is, kids are usually animal lovers by nature. I bet if they understood that meat is a dead animal, they'd never eat it. My son refuses beef because he loves cows so much. I'd let him go a bit more vegetarian if he liked beans, but he doesn't like them, either! He'll eat vegetables and fruits all day long, but I wish there were other kinds of protein. Are the tofu products a good enough substitute?

A couple of years ago my father made a joke about cooking some rabbit. My little sister (then six) said he couldn't because it was too cute. I pointed out that she liked the movie Babe but was still eating pork ribs. She claimed that's different because it tastes good. She knows it's an animal but like most adults who eat meat she isn't bothered by it unless it's something like rabbit which isn't commonly an accepted food source in the US.

I understand it, and am a huge animal lover, but I just really get a bad craving for a burger sometimes; it overcomes every other issue. After you develop a hard-wired taste for meat, it's really difficult to ignore it, no matter what your heart says. I'm wondering how much we're hard-wired for at birth vs. how much of it is environmental? My son seemed hard-wired for vegetarianism from the beginning, and I bet that when he grows up, he'll want to ditch meat forever. I won't be sad about it -- I'll think it's great that he's able to do something I've had trouble doing myself!

So are veggie burgers.

And there's so many different bean recipes, there's got to be at least one he likes.

especially the omnivores in my backyard (raccoons), it became rather clear to me that we aren't really built for meat consumption.(see post #66).

A chance to tell you how much I adore your cats! I always enjoy reading your posts anyway, but the new cat sig line just beats all. Does the Maine Coon know how beautiful he is? My half-Maine Coon/half-Bombay KNEW she was beautiful (below). LOL

Wow! Gorgeous kitten! And no, Oberon doesn't seem to know that he's a handsome guy. He's pretty goofy and a bit of a klutz, to be honest. ;-)

Here's his Catster page: http://www.catster.com/?100240

:hi:

" Our fondness for a juicy steak triggered a number of adaptations over countless generations. For instance, our jaws have gotten smaller, and we have an improved ability to process cholesterol and fat.

Our taste for meat has also led us into some trouble—our teeth are too big for our downsized jaws and most of us need dental work."

Just HOW improved is that ability to process cholesterol and fat, when heart disease and obesity are the leading causes of death in this country?

The second paragraph indicates that our TASTE for meat is actually leading us to trouble. I believe our meat eating ways evolved from occasional necessity (harsh winters), to bad habit. Sure, eating meat occasionally won't cause harm to most people (unless your steak comes with a case of mad cow), but we eat far more of it than is healthy, and far fewer vegetables than we should.

Our beef habit is causing worldwide environmental damage as well, as beef cattle require five times the land mass for sustenance than one vegetarian human does. Go to a rally against the WTO and ask the people there how well Americas beef habit is serving the world!

Both high in protein. Walnuts are especially wonderful.

Loves yogurt and cheese (organic dairy and eggs only in our house) but won't eat nuts. Sometimes I wonder if the yogurt goes overboard.

Thanks for the reply!

The MSM told me so! :crazy:

Disclaimer: I eat meat.

think about the nutritional issues.

If people are informed vegans, who plan their meals with thought for nutritional balance and give the kids B-12 supplements, no harm done.

But if the parents are flaky vegans who serve unbalanced meals and think they're doing something virtuous and beneficial simply because there are no animal products involved, that's potentially dangerous, because kids need certain nutrients to thrive. The result of an unbalanced vegan diet IS malnutrition, and it has nothing to do with quantity of food.

(I've seen examples of flaky vegans among college students, kids who feel virtuous because they're not eating animal products, but whose junky food choices would be unhealthy in any diet. And when you see someone who puts multiple sugars in their tea or coffee, you're seeing someone with hidden malnutrition.)

Recall that a few years ago, when low-fat diets were the rage, some flaky parents decided to go low-fat all the way and feed their babies skim milk. Well, it turns out that babies need a certain level of fats for their brains to develop properly. In fact, human milk (not a vegan product :-) ) has more fat in it than cow's milk.

Saying that feeding babies skim milk is a bad idea is NOT the same as saying that you should feed them fried ice cream.

Similarly, saying that a vegan diet for small children should be administered very carefully, probably after reading up on child nutrition, is NOT the same as saying, "Take them to McDonald's every day."

Thank you. There's always a happy medium between starving kids on a vegan diet and eating McD's every day.

I would raise my children vegan, but I would do it while carefully monitoring their nutrition, just as any parent would do regardless of special diets.

This whole thread was probably just a great outlet for vegan-bashing, but your post succinctly summed up why this article is just sensationalist crap.

For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat three.

because we know that the vast majority of people will continue eating meat. We help to decrease the burden on the planet.

Hey! We do what we can to be the digestive martyrs of the world

;)

david

:hi:

deprived children in Africa to bash Vegan parents. While it is true that uneducated Vegans, people that don't know anything about food nutrition, have occasionally been found abusive to their children. One also finds meat eating parents that make their children fat. I am not a Vegan but I think this is hype.

it good to hear meat-eaters realize this is crap too.

Welcome to DU!
:hi:

I wouldn't call a starving Kenyan child an active participant in his or her vegan diet.

Welcome to DU.

Messed up teeth. All malformed and crooked. I'm talking about the ones that were vegan before their permanent teeth came in. I have not noticed it in kids that were vegan AFTER they were teens.

I'm sure there's some way to avoid this, but most of the parents of kids I knew obviously did not know how.

as far as nutrition for babies/children goes when being a vegan without going overboard into the utter-granola area? Like the bare minimum vegan requirements?

Too many vegan/vegetarian books assume that you want to live an utterly zen hippie lifestyle and grow your own everything and get your vitamin E from the sun, etc. What about if you just want to shop at VONS, not eat animal products but also not have screwed up teeth, etc.

david

Is this child abuse too?

or necessarily ever having it. But by and large developed world nutrition has improved at the same time meat and dairy prices have gone down. Of course, food prices in general have gone down, but I am sure the argiculture department has raw data on these types of things. I think that data would be far more helpful than the data this professor used.

I would think it's better to let kids make up their own minds about being Vegan. I was raised non-vegan, a beef-loving and hunting family, but I became Vegan about 8 months back and I'm feeling fine. I can see how a kid would get sick of it and immediately abandon veganism if they were forced to eat Tofu for the first 18 years of their life... It's really a political/moral decision one has to come to themselves.

As for health, it's really not that hard. A good multivitamin will cover most of your nutritional needs (Do a little research to find out exactly what you need, and then find an appropriate supplement), and if you're concerned about protein (You don't really need to be) you can pick up a powder to make soy shakes, which are easily made and not as horrible as they sound (Assuming you don't buy chocolate).

thing or another! I think that is insane and I WISH my parents would have raised me vegan or vegetarian AND organic!!

The ONLY reason we are such meat eaters and milk drinkers is advertising! Where's the BEEF?! Got MILK?!?!

This is another choice just like abortion and everything else in life! As parents we do the best we can with what we have AND our conscious and let the children decide for themselves once they get out on their own.

Diet for a Small Planet and the new book by same author addresses the ridiculousness of believing or thinking everyone needs meat to be healthy and survive.

has to be the most insulting slogan ever, but the current one:

Beef: It's what's for dinner

is even more diabolical, because it suggests not only that it's what your having for dinner, but that it's just a matter of fact - accept it sheeple, there's nothing you can do about it. Now eat up!

My wife is a vegetarian primarily because her mom was such a bad cook, Canned and pressure cooked veggies along with lots of mystery meat. It turned her off meat forever and veggies for a good long time, until she got her fill of properly prepared stuff.

Bleh, what the 50s did to us as far as food preparation goes. Prolly through the early 80s. At least we're waking up to fresh foods again.

david

We did the vegetarian thing for 20 years. Grew, bought, and ate organic. Got in a lot of fruits and vegetables and whole grains, which I still would recommend.

But we live a public life and were exposed every so often to a meat based meal. We would joke to each other about the energy (especially sexual) we would feel within a few hours.

In my thirties, I found I had a thyroid problem, cold, pale, no energy, hair falling out. I did get some B vitamins and iodine at the time, which helped. But I kept putting on pounds, and losing energy, year by year, despite a conscientious exercise habit.

I was at the time faithfully using flax seed, ground fresh, to get those all important omega-3's. But it was when I went out to be with my parents for a week--we ate fresh salmon for 3 meals that week. All at once, I felt my brain come awake, my energy well up, my fingernails grow--and even lost a couple pounds in just a few days.

Now comes all the research about coconut oil, and the dangers of corn and soy. I was eating all that soy for all those years, and it was slowing my thyroid down! Read the science--that's why they give those to the cattle and the pigs!

Now on coconut oil, and small amounts of grassfed beef or freerange chicken supplemented by sardines or anchovies, using eggs and whey here and there (I am allergic to dairy)--I have lost weight effortlessly, have more energy, and strength in muscle, bones, teeth, hair and nails! (Especially with the help of green tea extract.) And no depression.

My step daughter has had her two boys on vegan diets since their births. She ended up with serious post partum depression, and the boys are now really starch and sugar addicts, including the behavior, even though the elder did not have sugar the first two years of life. She resisted my advice at the time to add the B vitamins and sardines or even fish oil capsules, as she has hated fish since SHE first turned vegan about age 12. But she finally HAS added in some more eggs and Amish chicken (to avoid the xenoestrogens) to augment all their protein.

It takes time (in short supply these days) to cook properly. But teaching kids to love fruit in place of sugar is not hard if one simply buys organic fruits. (Frozen papaya plus frozen strawberries makes good "ice cream.") But we are all surrounded by quick access to "easy" eating. And we are growing each generation sicker than the last.

I agree with the poster who said that we vote with our dollars, for a hormone-free, toxin-free, organic food supply. We live in a country where our government really could care less, it seems. We all try to do the best we can. Lesser amounts of good quality foods=better eating. :-) (BTW xylitol kills dental bacteria and builds tooth enamel--great natural substitute for sugar. I also would not give children a lot of milk these days that is not organic, or even grass raised, due to all the hormones in it.)

There was a Dr. Adamo who wrote about the Blood-type diet a few years back. Type O is thought to be the most ancient, primitive. Types A and B they trace back to the early farm based civilizations like Egypt. Perhaps we "O" folks really DO need the meat and fish boost that some of you can live without. I just know, from my own family's experience, being entirely vegan or vegetarian, is not optimal.

that are properly planned, much like any meat-based diet too.

4-5 servings of BOTH fruits AND vegetables daily (it used to be fruits or vegetables). I think that'll bump them to the bottom of the pyramid, which is, IMO, where they belong. But the meat industry will retain their little corner, I'm sure.

Gotta admit, it's a good way up from the ol' square we had when I was growing up.

david

Every single person I know that tried to go "vegan" ended up in the hospital suffering from anemia or lack of potassium problems. Unless you are devoting your life to making sure that every single thing your child needs to grow and develop is available thru veganism, then he has a point. A kid CANNOT eat an adult's vegan diet and be healthy.

Frankly, I'm confused by his terminology.. vegan is not the absense of meat.. it's the absense of any animal product. Vegetarian, would be a healthy alernative for child.. as long as it is done CORRECTLY!!

I've studied children's nutrion at length as a parent.. the American Pediatrics group (can't think of their acronmym) has a great book or two out on kid's nutrition. Trying to do vegan for your child without extensive training is wrong.

You're right on Veganism v. Vegetarianism. You can be a lacto-vegetarian (use dairy) or an ovo-lacto vegetarian (use dairy and eggs) or an ovo-vegetarian (use eggs).

Vegans avoid all animal products including, I believe, leather, wool (?), etc.

We're ovo-lacto vegetarians, and I can only imagine how hard it would be to raise a child as a vegan. It's not very difficult in the ovo-lacto world.

I'd love to know the names of the books. I have more research to do. I particularly want to figure out a way to break my 2.5 year old of his apple juice habit. He drinks *WAY* too much. Letting that get out of hand was a big mistake on my part as a parent.

david

of Iraq eating these days?

You can kill a child under 2 with a vegan diet. There was a case not long ago about that. Woman was feeding her 18 month old a strict vegan diet. The baby was almost to the point of starvaton and doctors were worried about severe brain damage. The mother even refused to breastfeed bacause that too was "animal" protein. Don't know the outcome of it all. That is totally, totally sick.

That's called starvation. There are PLENTY of foods with enough protein for children under 2, including soy based infant formula if this woman (cough*CRAzY!*) was so scared of breastmilk (what a nut). Sounds like she simply starved her child. Between nuts, soy based protein (tofu, soy nuts, 'fake' meat), and legumes, there is more than enough protein to sustain a growing child. The *only* thing the child may lack is vitamin b12 and you can get a supplement for that. Using the vegan diet as an excuse for this mother's starving of her child is irresponsible.

Curious. Any woman who refuses to breastfeed because it's an "animal product", as far as I can tell, is mentally ill.

Totally sick, if true, I agree. She needs counseling and the baby needs breast milk.

david

People degrade animals, test on them, they eat them and kill them in the most inhumane possible ways. They mock their intelligence and in no way are capable of seeing them as an equal form of life, until extreme studying and experience has altered their very way of life. Then, when we want to defend our rights to eat, we immediately bring up the fact animals eat meat and our scientific closeness to them to defend the topic.

With human beings, I just find it wildly amusing. We're so very animal when we don't feel 100% confident in our lifestyles, we compare our every action to the animals closest to us, but when we think we're the top of the food/social/whatever chain, human beings turn around and treat them like garbage. National geographic recently released an article on 'animal pollution', calling animals in over abundance pollution. You'd think if national geographic wanted to prove something which made them feel good though, they'd be happy to remark on how we evolved from them

I challenge any living being to degrade animals and immediately compare themselves to them. I then challenge you to give me an in depth reason outside of darwinism; the ability to bully, or the ability to control through our stupid socialistic empires, or religion, what makes hurting an animal so much more acceptable than hurting a human being? Note, this is a real challenge, ideology on 'because I want to' is automatically disqualified, and that includes the notion a planet with over 6 billion of our species strong is in dire need of survival :p

It will be interesting if anyone takes you up on the challenge.

how to harvest crops without killing anything? Because hundreds of cute li'l furry animals are killed when crops are harvested. Field mice, rabbits, etc.

But that's okay, because we're not going to eat them. Just waste their lives. Right?

it was by choice, but we were very careful to make sure that his diet was balanced well as he participated in year round competitive long distance swimming, so we had a few times where his body fat percentage got too low for the workouts, and we had to put him on the "all REAL ice cream, all the time" diet so his body could keep up with his miles in the water. He is now approaching 25 and about the most healthy person I know. He is never sick, is sociable as heck, has very little body fat, oh, and stands 6'2", so no stunted growth for him. It actually made us all more aware of our eating habits, and made meal planning a must.

Mr. Mtnester and I have slowly over the last 4 years changing our eating habits considerably as well. We have cut out all caffeine, aspartame, sodium, etc. that we could, stopped eating red meat and pork, but are still working on cutting out the chicken (we LIKE it, sob). We tried a couple of experiments once we felt all of that stuff had been "purged" out of us, and we found:

When we tried eating red meat again (organic at that) it tore us up for days

Whenever we tried a "Diet" pop with aspartame, it made us ill for days

The most affected we were was by caffeine. We noticed that it had double the affect as when we were using it regularly. I mean, a double latte at 10:00 AM made each of us crank until about the same time that night, then we had a miserable night's sleep, and functioned poorly throughout the next day.

When we tried a pre-prepared box of stuffing, we both had a MASSIVE headache for days (we are sure it was the sodium)

We don't eat out of a box, it takes more time, but it is worth it. We each dropped 20 pounds by refusing to eat pre-prepared food from a box. And we fell we actually eat more than before. We both feel better, are more alert, and generally more active than when were were eating for convenience. We are not fitness freaks or body conscious nutjobs. We just started reading about what aspartame converts to in your body, etc. and decided we needed a change. Hope it adds some years.

FWIW

Whenever I get dumped on by vegetarians for being an omnivore, it seems it's always by people who own a few cats or a few dogs. I have to point out to them that their household consumes more meat products than mine does (we only have goldfish) and if they were really bothered by the poor cows, then they should NOT own carnivorous pets.

have 3 cats who live in my home as part of my family, which we adopted a while back to save them from certain death. Inasmuch as they *have* to eat meat, I feed them appropriately. It's kinda neat because since they NEED to eat meat, they do, and since we DON'T NEED to eat meat, we don't.

Pretty good situation we have going on.

That said, I do have to admit that it kinda grosses me out.

david

by harboring carnivores under your roof, aren't you leading to the deaths of more cows and horses? Just wondering.

Dogs can do just fine on a vegan diet. My own dogs have both loved lettuce, carrots, pasta, etc. Cats, as I'm sure Lorien will tell you (I think she said so earlier up) are obligate carnivores, but there's a shelter in Kentucky that's been feeding its rescues a vegetarian diet, and they seem to be doing all right. So the answer is, sure, and not necessarily.

Are there any veterinarians here? I'm curious, because it sounds hard to believe.

I'm in college, and the rest of my family eats meat. What's more, they feed my current dog some kind of godawful kibble full of who knows what kinds of disgusting rendered products - yuck. But here are a couple of links, if you're interested:

http://www.helpinganimals.com/h-vegcat-meals.html (a PETA site, so depending on your feelings about them, you may or may not be interested)

http://www.veganpet.com.au/experts1.htm (a detailed site from a veggie pet-food company about pet nutrition)

http://www.homeatlastanimals.org/HAL/nokill.html (the sanctuary's article about how they feed their animals)

http://www.homeatlastanimals.org/ (and, finally, the sanctuary's site, so you can poke around a bit - their animals don't look malnourished to me, so I imagine it could be done)

I'd also be interested in hearing from a vet about this. Peace. :hi:

....I know that carnivores will often first eat the intestines of animals, especially herbivores, that they kill. I've always assumed that it had something to do with a need for nutrients derived from vegetable matter that they couldn't get via digestion of the matter in their own guts.

Again, perhaps a vet could help us here.

The intestines of animals will accelerate rot & spoilage. When you hunt or fish, if you are not going to chill down your kill ASAP, you HAVE to remove the intestines or your prey will go bad. Just about every microbe under the sun can be found in an animal's digestive system.

Carnivores learn this through instinct, people have to learn it through intelligence.

If that's the case, why after eating all of the internal organs do they often leave the rest of the carcass without touching it?

Stop and look at a road kill sometime when you're traveling out west. Often looks like they've been field dressed with all of the soft tissue of the guts gone yet none of the hindquarters or other significant muscle tissue consumed.

I just don't think that the average carnivore that happens upon a fresh roadkill plans that far in advance. Perhaps the big cats do, but if they're that bright, why not just 'field dress' the animal themselves and then drag away the now-lighter carcass? No need to eat fecal matter in the intestines. There's something there that they're after IMHO.