Judge orders continued feeding for Florida woman

Ruling prevents husband from removing tube from brain-damaged wife
Wednesday, February 23, 2005 Posted: 4:24 PM EST (2124 GMT)

(CNN) -- A Florida judge extended for two days an emergency stay keeping a feeding tube attached to a severely brain-damaged woman.

Pinellas Circuit Court Judge George Greer's decision prevents Terri Schiavo's husband from removing the tube.

Greer's ruling on Wednesday also keeps intact a request by Terri Schiavo's parents, who sought to block another court ordering the removal of the feeding tube. On Tuesday, a state appeals court cleared the way for the tube to be removed. (Full story)

Terri Schiavo, 41, has been at the center of a court battle between her husband, Michael, and her parents since suffering heart failure in 1990 that left her severely brain damaged.

<snip>

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/02/23/schiavo.case/index.html

and just feed her Big Macs?

:D

Do they really think a severely brain damaged person will attain full recovery???

Terri Shiavo died fifteen years ago. All that remains is an empty shell.

I mean, we don't demand that mentally disabled have to become of an average intelligence or they gotta go.

she is PVS. This isn't an issue of disability. I am a great supporter of the ADA and the rights of the disabled.

-

story gives some details:

Judge extends stay keeping food for brain-damaged Terri Schiavo
By MITCH STACY
Associated Press Writer

CLEARWATER, Fla. — A judge Wednesday extended by two days a stay keeping brain-damaged Terri Schiavo's feeding tube in place, saying he needed time to decide whether her parents should be allowed to pursue other legal and medical options.

State Circuit Court Judge George Greer extended the emergency stay until 5 p.m. Friday. He said he needs to decide whether her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, can have more time to determine if she has greater mental capabilities than previously thought.<snip>

Some doctors have testified that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope for recovery, but the Schindlers have countered with other medical opinions that she might improve with rehabilitation. The 41-year-old woman appears to cry, laugh and react to her family.<snip>

(Parents lawyer)Gibbs told (Judge) Greer there should be no rush to disconnect the tube if there is a chance the new tests would show she might have some mental abilities.<snip>

Felos said doctors who have examined Terri Schiavo had ruled she only is capable of primitive reflexes and that the areas of her brain controlling interaction with her environment or others were destroyed.

they haven't determined if she has greater mental capabilities??

Judge is an idiot

As the professor eloquently stated (paraphrasing here)--people see what they want to see.

True experts are few and far inbetween.

The horrible media fest of this situation has not helped Terri nor her family at all.

I would not survive having to fight for my daughter's right to live, despite what some removed "specialist" might opine about her after a 10 minute look.

Be careful.....remember hitler's first victims were the disabled.

Why can't we remain humane about people who are different than us? They scare us. We still lock them up and avert our eyes here because "i wouldn't want to be them--i don't even want to think about it".

Check it out:
http://www.notdeadyet.org/

Even if she has no real brain functions, to let someone slowly starve to death is just wrong. If they finally decide she can die, why not just OD her?

Either way, it's that ol'e Jeb behind the scenes playing god. He loves the unborn and the vegetables. Anyone in between is dung unless he can find your name as a "ranger" or whatever else they label the big-money Rethug donors.

...we decided last year not to give my mother a feeding tube. It had been the end of a long illness, and it was clear she was going. Once she could not eat anymore it really was just a matter of days. One uncle had a feeding tube put into his wife--she was comatose for 15 years because of it.

1) Starvation and dehydration are actually painless and common in terminal patients. Many terminal patients stop eating and drinking several days before they actually die. Depending on how large of body mass, they may last for a week or so before they die. In any event, the body as part of its reaction generates endorphins which makes this process fairly painless.

2) There is an assumption that there is enough of a mental process left for her to recognize pain (which of course would still not be present from starvation).

In the world of palliative care, what the parents wish and are doing is causing far more discomfort and loss of dignity than to simply let her body follow a natural course.

L-

She stopped eating this weekend. She's on IV pain meds so she shouldn't experience much pain, when she was concious she was pushing food and drink away and saying she didn't want it. Her doctor says this is normal.

Personally I'd rather the staff "accidentally" give her a bit too much morophine so that we'd be positive she isn't suffering, but she'd be uncomfortable with that and we're obeying her wishes.

Earlier today I heard the last extention was ending today, now there's yet another extention! Can these parents keep going to one judge at a time and keep this going on indefinately? I don't understand!

Because of this case, I made a living will. I NEVER want any damn judge ordering people eto keep me alive when, if I will be a vegetable, I don't want to live!!!

LET HER DIE, 15 years is a bit too long to hope.

they are only thinking of what they will 'lose' if their daughter dies. they don't have her best interests at heart.

my uncle fell down and was unconscious (this was right after his wife died - i thought the message was clear that he wanted to join her!). he was in the hospital with a feeding tube. the family hashed it out whether or not to maintain the feeding tube. many of us said pull it. one (catholic) cousin said keep it. the cousin won. my uncle lived like that for almost two years - a veritable vegetable, unable to interact. after he finally died, my mother wished she had been more vocal about pulling the tube.

my dad, my uncle's brother, just like you, immediately went downtown and had living wills drawn up for my mother and himself. when it was dad's turn to go, he was in the hospital for only two weeks before he expired. that was a blessing.

So there seems to be no end in sight.

I'm on a different end of this. Her husband should walk away, he has already gone on with his life. I called our local radio station with a complaint when I heard them report about Terri being "on life support". Then people call in and say "take her off the respirator". So many people think she's brain dead and can't breathe. They should tell the truth.

If there was an afterlife, I would spend eternity unable to forgive my wife if she chose to walk away. I have no living will, but I would rather have the feeding tube pulled.

I look at Michael Shiavo as a hero.

from "where I was in Terri's condition" to "IF I were in Terri's condition"

All this talk about killing her stems from people's personal fears of loss of ability.

Easy to say how you would feel if you were experiencing the situation. Much different when you are actually experiencing it.

Funny.

"This wasn't supposed to happen to me."

"This is supposed to happen to somebody else."

Much different perspective when you are immersed in the complexities of such a life.

Believe it.

This is not an intellectual exercise. This is someone's life.

ps.....for the record........no, I am not a "prolifer".
for the record.......I am prochoice.
for the record.......I am anti- death penalty
(esp for those who have severe impairments)

Where are the democrats here? Social programs....everyone has value?

I am disgusted.

Terri is not disabled, she is in a persistent vegetative state. Yes I have seen the videos on her parents site and they don't change my trust in the numerous medical and judicial opinions that have been issued in this case.

I am a life long Democrat and a strong supporter of the ADA and the rights of the disabled. I resent any implication that my support of Michael Schiavo implies that I don't value Terri Schiavo's life.

it was a semantic suggestion to clarify your experience

I was responding to your statement "where are the Democrats here".

excuse me

Well put, Deek.

There were alot of people around here outraged over Scott Peterson's death penalty sentence yet I see alot pissed off that we haven't yet pulled the feeding tube from a disabled woman.

Go figure. :eyes:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Why doesn't the husband sue for divorce, get a 50-50 settlement and move on with his life. The family could then pay to keep her alive as long as possible without taxpayer money...they could get collections to keep her alive from private contributions.

He's carrying out Terri's wishes. It's her horrible family that wants to keep the empty shell "alive".

His life is essentially on hold for all of these years. I know he's trying to honor his wife's wishes but after all these years, maybe he should begin his life again before he's too old to enjoy it.

And that family that keeps going to court should have to sign an agreement stating they will have sole financial responsibility for her care as long as she persists in this never ending vegetative state.

Let her die for god's sake! The family are only extending the agony and are going against the wishes of their daughter. They are MONSTERS!

She cannot comprehend the legal proceeding. Additionally, as soon as Terri reached age of majority, her parents were no longer responsible for her.

By being married, her husband is responsible for Terri. And he is trying to honor her wishes. Unless anyone can PROVE the contrary, we must take her husband's account of her wishes.

There is no legal mechanism available to transfer responsibility from her husband to her parents. Should he place her in their Care, they could walk away at any time, and her husband would still be responsible for her.

And, in full disclosure, I have a great number of reservation regarding the motivation of her parents. My belief is that if her parents are successful, that their backers (the right to life crowd who produced the video on the parents website)will walk away and her parents will be unable to care for her, so it will end up her husbands responsibility.

age, a man can not divorce a woman in PVS. Are your for real? Of course he can divorce her.

She's still being kept alive in a PVS in a ritzy hospital in NY by her children. The divorce was part of an agreement to sever relations between Von Bulow and Sunny's children by previous marriage who believe he attempted to kill her. Von Bulow now lives in Europe.

However, I'm not in favor of Michael Schiavo divorcing his wife. As Walt Starr says, "he's a hero." The parents have become tools of the right wing. What would happen if Schiavo were to divorce his wife and the parents take charge of her and all attempts to rehabilitate her fail. Would they ever admit they were wrong and remove that feeding tube?

My mother died of "starvation," as do most people at the end of their lives. Morphine eased her passing.

I simply don't. But the money isn't the issue. Terri's hissband has said that Terri told him many times that she didn't ever want to be in this state and kept alive. That's the same thing I've told my husband, and both kids! Terri's parents haven't said they disagree with pulling the tube because they think it's wrong for religious reasons, or any thing like that. They said they think she's going to recover! They're living in a dream world, and makeing Terri pay the penalty. For God sake, let the poor woman go to heaven and be at peace.

put it in writing.

seriously, if you feel strongly one way or the other, write it down. If you don't want to pay a lawyer for a living will, at least write it down formally, and have it notarised. Send a copy to two people you can trust.

It'sa brutal thing to think about, but I have copies of both of my parents (they're divorced) final instructions, not a will, but living wills, powers of attorney to me and my sister with specific instructions concerning what they want done, when. they have one from me, and I'm 30. even if you have no estate to justify a will, get your instructions, if you really care one way or the other, on paper.

The thing that scares me is that the Fl. courts are so involved in this, what's to stop them from negating a living will? I don't live in Fl, but in Ga. which isn't very far away. More and more government intrusion on things like this tell me that there is a strong possibility that the courts, especially in the South, that would simply over-rule a written wish because they think it wrong.

a friend of mine died a year ago. no one knew she was sick. one day, she gave me a piece of paper with her life insurance policy number and her daughter's phone number. she told me this was her 'will.' i laughed, because she was fine! but three weeks later, she was dead!

no one knew she was sick, so her death was a shock. her funeral arrangements were a circus! she practiced buddhism, but her selfish daughter (not the only family member) did not have her cremated. she had a fancy service, which my friend would not have liked, and a burial in a local cemetery. but we went around and around about it for about TEN DAYS! the daughter was the only one wanting these things, but other family and close friends, some she'd had for 40 years, knew that she'd prefer a buddhist ceremony. it was a nightmare...

...because nothing was written down. it was one person's word against another. it took me months to get over it and finally grieve my loss.

shouldn't we give her and the family the benefit of the doubt?

I mean really, people. There are multiple sources on the record with detailed information about how Terri used to communicate, during the first years after her "accident". There are court affidavits that attest to this along with the actual doctors and nurses notes that were created at the time in question.

Yep, that's right folks! Terri used to say 'stop' when getting physical therapy treatments that were painful for her. She said "hi" (or at least her attempt at hi, described more like clear "Haaaii" in response to specific people entering her room and greeting her), "pay" for "pain" and even, sadly, 'help me'...

Now, please don't get upset at me for bringing this up.. indeed the last thing I want is to get people in an uproar. No, rather, it is my desire that while we discuss this case we do so with facts and information that are part of the public record.

So, there are a few different issues to consider here..the first being whether or not we believe the numerous reports by multiple different parties (who frankly have little to nothing to gain by bringing this information forward..) and then the second is, IF we believe that *all* these people aren't lying then isn't it really a matter of whether or not we condone starving severely disabled people to death or not??

See, that is where I see the huge disconnect between the "let her go" "don't murder her" crowd, at least from what I have observed... that most who think she is already dead and her shell should be allowed to go also, that they do not accept that she was ever alive mentally after her collapse.

For that to be the case means that multiple parties lied, in the moment, while they were making their notes in Terri's medical charts...

The husband should divorce, get 50% of whatever remains financially, and move on with his life. The parents can support her 24/7 care for as long as she lives.

who never even met you, stepping in and demanding you divorce your spouse? Demanding you make one medical decision or another? Demanding that some medical procedure be forced upon you against your expressed wishes?

The parents said in court that they could care less what Terri would want, and they would continue the forced feeding even if they knew for a fact she would not want to be in this condition. They said that even if her limbs had to be amputated, she was in pain, she had to be placed on a respirator, it bankrupted the family and she could never recover...they would still continue the force feeding.

Why would a husband give up legal custody to people that do not care about what she would want?

This guy is protecting Her from these very delusional, very twisted people who care more about their own selfish beliefs that they care for their own daughter.

What a tough situation it must be.

Governer Jeb is just using them all for an example to the American public. This bunch (the Bush Cabal) is good at using people.

They are accepting donations and her care is being paid for by the State of Florida. There is no money for anyone.

And, if true, when and why did she stop communicating? Also, how many years do you want people in this condition to be warehoused? Who's going to pay for the bills for her care?

There is a time to let go. In my opinion, Terri's time came quite a few years ago.

Google is our friend

Heidi Law Affidavit ::snip::Terri had very definite likes and dislikes. Olga and I used to call Terri "Fancy Pants," because she was so particular about certain things. She just adored her baths, and was so happy afterward when she was all clean, smelling sweet from the lotion her mother provided, and wearing the soft nightgowns her mother laundered for her. Terri definitely did not like the taste of the teeth-cleaning swabs or the mouthwash we used. She liked to have her hair combed. She did not like being tucked in, and especially hated it if her legs were tightly tucked. You would always tell when Terri had a bowel movement, as she seem agitated and would sort of "scoot" to get away from it. ::snip::


CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N affidavit ::snip:: Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in discomfort, but it came out more like "pay." She didn't say the "n" sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort by saying "pay" and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper and scooted in bed on her bottom. ::end snip::



CAROLYN JOHNSON, CNA affidavit(pdf)testifies to the lack of care ORDERED by Terri's husband.

Now WHERE did all of this "trauma" come from? According to Dr. Baden, highly regarded forensic scientist, it appears Terri suffered some sort of trauma similar to a car accident or getting beaten.

::snip:: "That bone scan describes her as having a head injury. That's why she's there. That's why she's getting a bone scan," Baden explained, "and a head injury can cause, lead to the 'vegetative state' that Ms. Schiavo is in now." ......

....."It does show evidence that there are other injuries, other bone fractures that are in a healing stage," Baden explained, adding that those apparent injuries were likely the result of "some kind of trauma. The trauma could be from an auto accident, the trauma could be from a fall, or the trauma could be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It's something that should have been investigated in 1991."
::end snip:: The full transcript should be available on cnn...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You asked a very valid question as to why Terri quite communicating. Do you listen to the news or ever bother yourself to read information from The Parents? They say she is STILL communicating with them! Yes, it is hard to understand her and yes I would even go as far as to say that I haven't heard any recent claims of Terri saying 'momma' or 'pain', but I think there is a reasonable explanation for this.

For one thing, when someone is disabled they may often need constant remedial therapy to help them regain use of some abilities. If a severely disabled person is not given this therapy, and in addition has nearly all forms of sensory stimulation removed from their environment, they will not improve and may even lose the ability to do that which they once struggled yet managed to do.

An example of this would be if you were put in a bed for years and years and years without anyone moving your extremities. Even if your mind was as whole as it is this very moment (I don't know you so I can't really make any judgments in this regard ;-)), if your body was not moved and your muscles exercised your limbs too would shrivel up and become useless. How many other ways would a person, a healthy normal person (which I have never contended Terri is) regress and how many abilities would slowly go away if they were left 1)unable to move 2) without stimulation and 3) therapy to bring out what potential was there.

I can speak with a little experience on the subject of physical disability and the therapy often needed to advance and develop in a meaningful manner. There is a child in my extended family who was born with cerebral palsy that affected one side of his body. When he was a little baby he had little to no use of one of his arms.. when he would try to grab something, using the arm in question, at first he could only throw it out a little bit away from his body (like up and out 2 or 3 inches). His therapists expressed how vital it was that he use that arm, even if it were difficult, or else by the time he would be an adult the arm would most likely atrophy and be basically useless. And so for the next some years great effort was put into ensuring that the boy use his affected arm. At first it was painful to watch, him reaching for toys that were purposefully placed on his affected side.. trying and then trying again in frustration. At times it even felt cruel, to hold something out to him only to say "no no, you have to grab it with your other hand".. Slowly, over time, he gained use of his arm and hand. If you were to see him today, nearly a full grown adult, it would be hard to notice that he isn't as able with that one side of his body.

But that isn't how it would be IF he hadn't spent all those years working through his disability, and in fact if he hadn't done this his arm would, today, most likely be all curled up and useless by his side.

The same principle pertains in context to speech and speech impediments. If one has a disability and can barely do it as it is, what would 1)stopping all therapy and 2)removing most stimulation do??

Concerning your question as to who is going to be paying for her bills, the family has offered to provide her care. What people should really be concerned about is how it came to be that a man cried in court about wanting to provide for his wife for the rest of his life, got a 7 figure settlement and then within short order suddenly decided his wife didn't want to live after all. Isn't that a tad convenient?? Besides, if you are so worried about who is going to pay for Terri's care, does this also indicate that you care who NOW is paying for her care? What I mean is does it make any difference to you that the money awarded TO provide for this lady, that it has instead been used to endlessly petition the courts to end her life? That would be pretty rank hypocrisy to think it is fine for Felos to get payed HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars, from Terri's medical fund, while Terri's bills are currently being paid by THE STATE but then fuss about whether or not the parents will do the same.

About your "warehouse" question.. I will answer that if you will show the same regard and answer my previous question... you know, that one concerning whether or not people were advocating killing severely disabled people or if they TRULY believed she wasn't alive. And if so (she isn't alive) for what purpose would those nurses lie?

after multiple doctors said she was in a permanent vegetative state, and had no hope for recovery, and her husband stated that she did not want to live that way and wanted to see her wishes were followed.

I watched the tapes that say she communicated, and I just don't see it. I think that, sadly, this is a case of wishful thinking. And, since the doctors and the courts saw it that way too, I think that should have been the end of it. It wasn't Bush's place, or the Right To Life groups place, to fight this and draw it out. THAT is the issue for me. I don't like the trend of outsiders poking into these things and making decisions and trying to force them. The family had high hopes that have no evidence of being true, and I feel badly for them. They fought this thing in court, which I don't fault them for. But, they lost. This should have been over years ago. And, had Bush and the special interest groups stayed out of it, it probably would have been.

don't let that interfere with your opinion on this. please.

This is not a right to life issues. The RW has taken this and tried to exploit this woman's life for their own political agenda. That is an atrocity.

This is about a woman's right to life, despite the limitations she has experienced.

I agree. The political and media circus has selfishly forgotten about Terri. Let her have peace. Let her live her life with the people who love her.


I watched the tapes too. I saw obvious communication. I'm used to being around people with very severe disabilities. Terri was communicating.

The edited ones or the full 4-5 hours? The edited ones are very misleading.

I saw clips from the tape.

I watched a loved one "live" in this state for 12 years. I think I know a hell of a lot more about this than you realize. I know what it is like to hope that they can snap out of it. Long after I thought I realized it would never happen, I still had dreams where my grandfather woke up and was his old self. It wasn't until he died that those dreams stopped. When I watched those tapes of Terri, it brought back every memory I had of that time, because she was exactly like he was. There is no one there.

So, yes. I know a little bit about being close to a subject like this. And, for all I would love for Terry's families wishes to be fulfilled, and for her to recover, because I DO know a little bit about what they're going through, this is still a legal issue between next of kin, doctors, and the courts. EVERYTHING you've posted by you has been speculation based on information you've received through biased sources.

You aren't qualified to make the decision about what happens to Terri Schiavo any more than I am, Randal is, Bush is, the media is, anyone outside of that family, including her HUSBAND, who is next of kin. And your attempts to paint anyone who doesn't agree with you as heartless, or influenced by hatred of a politician is shameful.

Let me tell you. If anyone had harassed my grandmother about any decisions she made about his care the way the politicians and "right to life" groups are, you'd never see another person as angry as I, and I would never stop fighting them. And I would never hide my contempt for anyone who saw fit to judge her situation, our families situation, and our decisions made with his doctor, just because of what they saw on TV, or read in magazines or on the internet. It's all a disgusting dog and pony show for the benefit of the religious right. And it is disgusting. And this is the last thing I have to say about it, and the last thing I have to say to you.

Alas, I, too have very personal experience with this situation. My strong feelings about this case are not based on what I see on tv (actually, i don't), read in mags (not either--except magazines by, for, and about people with disabilities) or on the internet. There's no speculation going on here, sweetheart.

It's VERY close and personal for me.

But you made the connection between bush and the religious right and the strong opinion that Terri should not be put to death--not me. I am stating my opinion despite the fact that i embody the antithesis of those mindsets.

These are the very people who are working toward eugenics--the dying of of people who "do not contribute"...those who are not deemed worthy enough to be allowed to live. It's increasingly dangerous to be severely disabled in this country. If the cuts in medical care don't kill you, the cuts in supportive services will. Access to services and equipment that could significant differences in peoples lives are already reserved only for the wealthy few.

Where's the line?

Where are the rights?

to Terri. My whole argument all along is it should be up to the next of kin to decide, because it is their right to speak for what their loved ones intended. It is their right. She is her husband. And, I don't think that right should be stripped away from him, even after the courts have repeatedly decided that it should NOT be, because of a smear campaign leveled on him in the media by a special interest group.

Your whole argument seems to be that Terri should be kept alive. That you somehow know better that Terri's husband what her wished would have been. I don't have an opinion either way. Because I don't know. And, I contend that you don't either, unless you know these people personally and aren't letting that on. Unless you knew Terri personally, and she confided in you that she would rather live as a vegetable than dead, you are just speculating.

because of her severe brain damage. People around here refer to her as being dead for 15 years....a shell....an eggplant.

Why shouldn't Terri be allowed to live? Because she can't eat? Because there is no cure? She' not going to GET BETTER.

Terri's not terminally ill. She's severely impaired. It is what it is.

Why are we, as a society, even talking about whether we should starve this woman to death or not?

You just don't get it.

that she did not want to live as a vegetable. That is the only thing that matters. Everything that everyone has said in this thread is speculation. Your contention that she's only severely impaired is based on speculation, unless you've witnessed all the events and have seen her personally throughout this 15 year ordeal. Unless you are her doctor. And, based on that speculation, you seem to think that merits others meddling into affairs they have no business meddling in. People who aren't her doctors, or family members, or legal next of kin.

Why are we, as a society, coming between a husband and wife, and a decision they made? If I tell my husband "Please don't let me live that way", and the unthinkable happens, he should be able to see that my wishes are met without meddling and interference. That is what is happening in the Schiavo case.

I don't fault her family. It is a terrible, heart wrenching thing to hold on to, and all to easy to deny it, and think things will change. Hope that they'll come back. Hope that they'll no longer be a vegetable. I know what it is like to look at every blink. At every sigh. And think something is there. But, they aren't her legal next of kin. They had the right to challenge that, but sadly they lost. Her legal next of kin says she didn't want to live that way, and still contends that years later. His right as her next of kin, which the court backs up, should stand.

Her parents have no delusions about a miracle recovery. Hope doesn't mean unrealistic hope.

For all of us, what is tomorrow about if it doesn't entail hope for a better, or at least, not worse, day?

Given that, i bid you goodnight

So says you. Your opinion. The courts didn't think so. They ruled in his favor.

.

Those who would stand up for the rights of next of kin are wolves. People who don't agree with you that you and others who think they know better than the next of kin, her spouse, what should happen to her are not as morally superior as you.

not moral superiority

about upholding the rights of next of kin? Should public opinion and the politicians who want to play to that, have sway over that legal bond?

I entered into a legally binding contract with my husband. Just as Terri did. They were still in that bond, even still living together, before she all but completely died. He stated that her wishes were not to live that way. Her family challenged it, and lost. Just like I hope happens if the unthinkable happens to me. As much as I love my family, and I know they love me, they are not married to me. My husband is. Both of us willingly. And, unless there was evidence that that bond had been legally breached somehow, then it is no one else's business when the unthinkable happens and my husband steps in as next of kin. That is the right that I think we all should have.

tube. Last time the tube was removed for 6 days, and still she didn't die. She is a very resilient person, in my opinion.

it would have been over years ago. This is a husband's effort to grant his wife's wish. For better for worse. I understand both sides, there is no winner here only varying degrees of loosing. Have written instructions and express your wishes to your loved ones. The last thing Terri would have wanted would be to place this much stress on her family.

Peace.

We Floridians are paying her medical bills.

The only dignity a person has left, played out like a Soccer game in our courts and society. Have we learned anything?

We should all have living wills. We should do it for ourselves and for our families. This woman was so young that is was something she probably just did not think to do legally, but we all can do it..and save our families and our selves from having to live through this tragedy. This is such a sad story. My living will says..48 hrs only...then remove the tube.

I think she was only 24 or 26 when this happened, which is around my age. I don't really think of anything like this happening to me. So, you make a very good point.

than a 48 hours.

Millions of dollars and thousands of hours wasted on a woman who has "checked out" 15 years ago.

All this legal wrangling for the sake of her delusional parents.

"Look, she's following the baloon" ... okay, um. great.

:freak:

Let this woman go in peace. I viewed the videos. You can tell they were carefully selected, edited and orchestrated to show she is not PVS, and they don't do a good job of it.

She may exibit a "purposeful" action now and then, but they wont show you the video of the hundred times she just made random movements which constitude mere reflexive action. If you carefully cut out and use just the parts where he random movements seem purposeful, you can build up a charade that she's not PVS. She has almost no cerebral cortex. Of course the Schindlers are hring doctors not for an objective opinion, but to say whet they are paid to say. I can pay an astronomer to say the moon is made of green cheese, doesn't make it so.

Heyo

and have been for day's. They're also picketing where he works and the hospital where Terri is being force fed. I think I read Randall Terry's group is doing the picketing.

Poor guy.

I hope a tragedy like this strikes each and every one of their families.

So that's what it's all about?

These people are sick:freak::freak::freak::freak::freak:twisted idiots.

Oh sure, just as long as it's not affecting their own lives they impose their beliefs on others.

I wonder if their tune would ever change if they got pregnant in a bad way, or if they were hooked up as a vegatable for years to a feeding tube themselves?

And then they have the nerve to harass the husband in front of his own home and voilate his privacy after all he has gone through just for their own self-cenered agenda?

How utterly selfish they all are!

This is ridiculous. This could, and probably will go on for years. If she is severely brain damaged I doubt she will ever come back.

Allow the poor woman to rest in peace!

If I'm not mistaken that's a Ford Taurus, which is probably the most boring car in the known universe. If he was living it up with his mostly departed wife's dough, wouldn't he have a fancier car?

any "standing" in this case. The woman is married and her husband and possibly children should be the only people with "standing".
Any lawyers out there to explain....in simple terms please.

Legally, by the contract between Terri, her husband, and the "state"
upon their marriage, they became subject to the state laws governing marital rights/responsibilities.

The spouse, legally, becomes the next of kin.

and have tried to use Terri as a poster child.

Terri's husband only should have the right to speak on her behalf. He is not going to desert her to parents that are only using her for their political purposes.

They are her parents, for Christ sakes! Of course they don't want her to die. I can't believe how deluded some people are.

But unfortunately everyone does. You obviously don't know anything about this or just think that all parents are great and can never do any wrong (big mistake). These parents are the most detestable people I've ever seen.

In fact, I love them SO SO MUCH that if one of them were in PVS with no chance of recovery after 15 years, and if experts told me that there was no cerebral cortex left, I would allow feeding to be stopped, make certain that there would be no pain, and allow her to die.

This has gone way past "they love their daughter." It's self-serving and selfish for these parents to put their daughter through this. If they are as religious as they claim, and if Terri were a devout Catholic, then they would know that according to her beliefs, she would die and go to heaven where she would be whole and happy again, in the presence of God. There's no shame, no defeat if you have this attitude.

This is not a disability case, period. I work with disabled people daily, and I have the utmost respect for them and for the value of their lives. This is the case of a woman who has no cortex left, and without cortex, you're basically nothing. There's no thought, no speech, nothing.

Here's what I think is good info on the entire case:

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

Here are the seven fronts on which Randal Terry suggests everyone work to save Terry, in decsending order of importance:

1. Governor
a) avalanche of phone calls and emails
b) personal phone calls and meetings with respected leaders
2. The Legislature
a) phone calls and emails in district and Tallahassee
b) on-site lobbying in Tallahassee when Legislature opens
3. Michael Schiavo
a) pickets at home and work - relentless
4. Judge Greer
a) church connections
b) public protests
5. Federal cause of action
a) President Bush
B) Department of Justice
6) Local Doctors and Hospitals
a) protests and potential boycott
7. Local church recruitment

I see Terri's bloggers being able to attack with significant impact on items 1,2,4, and 5. There is another effort not mentioned that I believe will significantly affect the political issues involved in this case, but we'll address it after I have a chance to get some more information regarding a couple of local political issues in Pinellas county.

http://hyscience.typepad.com/hyscience/2005/02/the_terri_schia_1.html#more

lot about this case. Apparently, a very large handful of religious right organizations have funded the efforts of Terri's parents and will continue to do so.

This woman is being used as a political pawn for the religious right. And a good number of people who don't know what is going on are understandably bamboozled by the whole affair.

for two weeks and said: "I'm alive." We had no idea where he got the expression, but he said it over and over for half an hour. I think if Terri had wanted to die, she had plenty of opportunity. But she is alive. OK...flame me. But she is still alive, and I think something inside of her fought for that.

Terri's life, mind, soul died many years ago. Trying to keep a shell alive is immoral and misguided.

because she's tube-fed?

Do your homework.

You force your kids to function because you make them eat their greens?

Terri has a life--might not be what any of us would choose for #1--but she does have a life. She has people who love her. She smiles at the simple pleasures in life.

No soul? Have you seen the tapes? There's life and love in those eyes. Let yourself see it.

How dare you dehumanize her and call her a shell.

The disability rights movement is very parallel to the black rights movement. Remember when a black was only considered a fraction of a human being of a white?

What harm is there in letting Terri live her life?

Visit a hospital that attends to the needs of complex children...children with cancer, metabolic disorders, etc.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Don't impose your criteria of what constitutes a "life worth living" upon others.

You haven't been there.

Gratitude is everything.

there's big difference that you cant seem to comprehend.

On the tapes the parents claim show Terri is responding, you can plainly see they're using parlor tricks to deceive people. Terri cant respond because she hasn't a cerebral cortex (LOOK IT UP).



The parents have a long history of pathological deception, I wouldn't believe a thing they said.

good for you.

Terri is brain damaged, not brain dead. Read beyond the misleading headlines in MSM.

DUers' should have that technique down pat by now.

I said "cognitively brain dead" , that means Terri Schiavo is without the ability to think, be aware, feel, have emotions. She's in a permenent vegitative state.

She has a brain stem with keeps her reflexive responses like breathing heart rate, basic startle responces and so on.

Don't you know what without cognition means?

Saying Terri is brain damaged or disabled is like saying a double leg amputee has a slight leg problem.

Her entire cerebral cortex has been replaced with spinal fluid.

Terri is living and breathing on her own. She won't die, even when her feeding tube was removed for 6 days she didn't die. What does that tell you?

Why is it here we look beyond the MSM crap for political issues, but not humane ones?

Again, having nutrition bypass your mouth and esphogus is not "life support". There is no plug to pull.

If all of us would stop putting sandwiches in our mouths, that would be equally as pleasant/moral as stopping Terri from being fed.

:wtf:

By ABBY GOODNOUGH
Published: February 24, 2005

CLEARWATER, Fla., Feb. 23 - As a judge delayed the removal of a brain-damaged woman's feeding tube for two more days, Gov. Jeb Bush's administration stepped back into the heated case Wednesday with the state's protective services agency seeking to intervene. <snip>

Neither the governor's office nor the protective services agency, the Department of Children and Family Services, would discuss the state's petition, filed just before a hearing before Judge Greer. But lawyers for both sides said the agency wanted to further postpone the tube's removal so it could investigate accusations that Ms. Schiavo had been abused.

David Gibbs, the Schindlers' lawyer, told reporters that someone had complained on a state hot line that Ms. Schiavo had been abused, and so the state was required to investigate. Mr. Schiavo's lawyer, George Felos, said that the state had received many such complaints in the past, and that all were politically motivated and false. <snip>

Still, Mr. Bush said he had not ruled out calling a special legislative session so lawmakers could try to prolong Ms. Schiavo's life. <snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/24/national/24feed.html?

does anyone really care about her? It seems too many just like to fight over her.

spread so many lies and slander in order to force others to make decisions they want them to make.

But really, there are other reasons people should be concerned about these bigots other than concern for Terri Schiavo. I mean, if they win here through lies, slander and intimidation, where will it end? Will they come after you next and force some unwanted medical procedure on you? Force you to divorce your spouse?

These are the most vile people on earth, Terri's parents especialy.

case to get attention. The ramifications of it could be enormous, and the abuse of Florida's judicial system on the part of the parents and their religious right supporters is horrendous.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48398-2005Feb23.html

In Schiavo Case, Gov. Bush Seeks Delay to Probe Abuse Allegations

By Manuel Roig-Franzia
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 24, 2005; Page A03

CLEARWATER, Fla., Feb. 23 -- The administration of Gov. Jeb Bush, already forcefully rebuked by the Florida Supreme Court for trying to override judicial orders and block the removal of a brain-damaged woman's feeding tubes, launched itself back into the case Wednesday by asking for a delay to investigate abuse allegations.

The surprise request by Florida's Department of Children and Families to intervene in the case of Terri Schiavo stirred an already emotional atmosphere. A woman broke with courtroom decorum and called out "Amen" when an attorney for Schiavo's parents, who are trying to stop her husband from removing the feeding tubes, announced in Pinellas County Circuit Court that the department has asked for a delay.

"We have been complaining and complaining and complaining that Terri has been abused, and it's fallen on deaf ears," Schiavo's father, Robert Schindler, said after the hearing.

The legal maneuver adds a new layer of complication to the seven-year case, which has drawn an eclectic mix of monks, antiabortion activists and conservative Christian activists to this town west of Tampa. George J. Felos, the lead attorney for Schiavo's husband, Michael Schiavo, said the move "reeks of political arm-twisting."

complete story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48398-2005Feb23.html

http://view.exacttarget.com/?ffcd16-febd137970640d79-fe0615737560067876117275

It's disgusting. Here are a few sample paragraphs:

After the "incident" that left Terry in this condition, her husband Michael Schiavo sued various members of the medical community for money, saying that they did not treat or diagnose her properly at an early stage, and that he needed this money to provide for Terri's therapy and rehabilitation and care.

After lengthy court battles, he finally won upwards of $1.7 million under the guise of caring for our daughter, and then to our horror, he immediately began spending the money on himself and his Playboy lifestyle.

Terri's estranged husband Michael Schiavo has been living with another woman for years, and has two children by her. He is determined to see Terri dead. Why? We believe it's because he gets to keep whatever money is left... and he may have even darker motives than that.

like the threads and conversations at religious right sites and blogs all over the country:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1333205/posts?q=1&&page=1

It has been going on for years.

won the right to withdraw her feeding tube in December of 1990. A mob of 20 people broke into the hospital and attempted to physically re-insert the tube back into her stomach. 19 people were arrested.

In the end Nancy's father committed suicide and his family and friends said it was due to this exact same sort of relentless harassment by right to life thugs.

pscycho freepers seem to have problems controlling their own actions in life, so they deem it worthy to control the outcome of others.

...I'd just like to say how infuriating it is to be subjected to the opinions of strangers who have never had to deal with a loved one in this situation. All the grandstanding and meddling by people from the FL Governor on down to those camped in Schiavo's front yard (whose aid I'm assuming has been enlisted by Terri's parents) only adds to the pain. For God's sake, unless you've walked a mile in these people's shoes you have NO IDEA what you'd do in the same circumstances!! Leave it to the courts to decide and stop moralizing on this family's tragedy. PLEASE.

that she would not want to live this disabled, I can see why he might fight for this. It's unusual for such a young person to have thought about and clarified this but perhaps she did.

Nothing is clear cut from out here. There are reasons to suspect the husbands motives. The insurance settlement is under his control as her spouse/guardian (and is paying for his lawyer) and the remainder would be his if she died while they were married. He has children with another woman he has not been able to marry because he is not getting a divorce.

His motives could be selfish or unselfish. My biggest issue was he refused to allow her rehab, to attempt being fed by mouth. It can be relearned, whether or not that is true for her. There is a lot of therapy that can be effective even with severe brain damage and it troubled me that none of the settlement funds were going there...and that he refused it even when it would not come from that fund.

Same with the parents. It is easy to call them delusional...and I would hate to see my child in that state. I don't know what my decision would be in that case. They ARE being used but it doesn't mean they aren't sincere. If I had eye contact, saw responses, smiles and so on and she hadn't told me or written that she wouldn't want to live if this happened...I might fight for her their way. I'd sure want all possible rehab and OT tried. If they "see" their daughter still in there, perhaps they are wrong, but that is understandable.

There is the recent study...well let me find an article on it:
http://www.registerguard.com/news/2005/02/08/a1.comaaware.0208.html

February 8, 2005

Study Finds Many Coma Patients In Fact Aware

By Benedict Carey
The New York Times
<snip>
In the study, a team of neuroscientists in New York, New Jersey and Washington, D.C., used imaging technology to compare brain activity in two young men determined to be minimally conscious with that of seven healthy men and women. In a measure of overall brain activity, the two groups were vastly different: The two minimally conscious men showed less than half the activity of the others.

But the researchers also recorded an audiotape for each of the nine subjects in which a relative or loved one reminisced, telling familiar stories and recalling shared experiences. In each of the brain-damaged patients, the sound of the voice prompted a pattern of brain activity similar to that of the healthy participants.

``We assumed we would get some minimal response in these patients, but nothing like this,'' said Dr. Nicholas Schiff, an assistant professor of neurology and neuroscience at Weill Medical College of Cornell University in Manhattan and the study's lead author. The two men showed near-normal patterns in the language-processing areas of their brains, Schiff said, suggesting that some neural networks ``could be perfectly preserved under some conditions.''

I hope I never have to decide or fight this way.

Excerpt:

Felos, peering over his glasses, seemed older, weary of it, even resigned. He tried to counter Gibbs point by point, saying that only the appeals court, or the Supreme Court itself, had the authority to issue the kind of stay Gibbs wanted.

As for removing Michael Schiavo as guardian, the point is moot, Felos said: No matter who is guardian, the same duty exists to obey the court's rulings.

Felos was especially exasperated at the motion for new tests and experimental treatment, calling it "even more frivolous than the last one. ... There will always be another motion."

He quoted earlier previous medical evidence that Schiavo's higher brain has simply atrophied and disappeared - "a giant black hole." The study cited by Gibbs deals with comatose patients who still have a brain to respond, Felos argued.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/24/Columns/Schiavo_s_life_seems_.shtml