Terri Schiavo's parents ask judge to let her divorce husband

TAMPA, Fla. - Terri Schiavo's parents asked a Pinellas court judge Monday to allow her to divorce her husband - in either life or death - in a court filing accusing Michael Schiavo of adultery and not acting in his wife's best interests.

The filing was one of a flurry of 15 motions filed by Bob and Mary Schindler as they now have less than three weeks to find a legal way to keep their severely brain-damaged daughter alive.

(snip)

David Gibbs, the Schindler's attorney, said Pinellas Circuit Court Judge George Greer has indicated he will not hear the divorce request and five other motions filed Monday - but that only means that the matters are now on their way to being appealed to the 2nd District Court of Appeal in Lakeland.

(snip)

"We have filed divorce proceedings because of (Michael Schiavo's) total disregard for Terri as his wife," Bob Schindler said. "He is married to Terri, but he is living with another woman and he has two children by her. It has become quite obvious that his priorities are not in Terri's best interest."

Gibbs said the divorce effort is one previously not seen in courts, allowing Terri Schiavo to end her marriage to Michael even after she dies.

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slaps a huge fine against these people for abusing the court system.

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not Michael Shiavo. He's a HERO! He's carrying out her wishes!

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Tossing out accustations requires you back it up with proof! And don't blow that bullshit story her MOSTER parents started that was THROWN OUT OF FUCKING COURT!

Put it up. PROVE YOUR ALLEGATIONS!

on another site, one that's not very liberal.

Why does this case bring out all the right-wing talking points?

;)

our visitor's been given the Granite Tribute.

:evilgrin:

You see, right wing nuts think they can tell everybody else how to live, especially when it's a case where they don't know the person or the family, have no emotional investment in the case at all, and it won't cost them a dime.

This is what right wing wackos do best: butt in where they don't belong and mess up people's lives.

....and have yet to provide the court with ANY evidence that would sway the courts to make that determination.

We live in a society where a person is presumed innocent until PROVEN GUILTY in a court of law.

Innuendo and slander and rumor mongering to sway the court of public opinion has no legal standing.

It went nowhere.

But the riechwing still spews it to defame a man who is carrying out his wife's wishes.

If someone stands between you and getting your way, make up a bunch of BS to demonize them and make it a personal popularity contest.

..a vegetable....

Perhaps you should do a little more research.....

She was apparently bulimic and had some sort of a heart attack, during which her brain was deprived of oxygen. She wasn't having any procedures done. I think you need to do the research yourself.

..causing her brain to be starved of oxygen for many minutes. This caused her to be in the vegetative state she is currently in.

She went into cardiac arrest at home.
The doctors fouled up by not properly diagnosing her bulimia.

Here's a factual website for information:
www.abstractappeal.com

Terri went into cardiac arrest at home, the underlying cause being bulimia.

The doctors that were sued were sued because of failure to diagnose the bulimia, and they weren't the doctors who treated her for the collapse.

www.abstractappeal.com

read the actual case documents.

She wasn't in the hospital and she wasn't having any procedures done.

..whilst she was in the doctor's care they fouled her up...hence the $1 million settlement...

My basic point was to the original moran that said that maybe Terri was this way because of something her husband had done...Which is NOT the case, it is because the Doctor's effed up that she is the way she is...

was due to electrolyte imbalance, which is the result of bulimia.

because no parent wants to outlive a child. However, the entire body of law gives the right to make medical decisions to her husband, and it seems according to witnesses that he IS acting according to her wishes, albeit belatedly. No parent can divorce a child's spouse. This one will get tossed out, but will have to grind through the legal system first.

Everybody is howling abour slow starvation. Dehydration is what will eventually allow her to die. Hospice will make sure she is sedated and comfortable, on the off chance she is able to feel discomfort. The process will likely take about a week, maybe less.

The woman, for all intents and purposes, is already dead. Not allowing the person closest to her, her husband, to make the final decision in this case is going to open up a whole legal horror show for health professionals across the country.

I'm not sure if the Schindlers really want to go there.

a husband like that. If my husband got himself a girlfriend and 2 kids, I sure wouldn't stay married to him. Who would? Why should he still be considered Terri's husband?

If I was brain dead for 15 years I would want my husband to have carried on with his life.

He can carry on with his life all he wants if he divorces Terri. Otherwise, he is married to another woman yet carries on with another woman.

in Florida. It might be grounds for divorce, but only if one of the parties to the marriage uses it for that. It is not a mandatory divorce.

Look, her parents did not sign the marriage license, so they have no say in whether or not a divorce takes place. sorry.

tough cases make bad law.

of the law and not concerned with the reality of the situation. If he divorces her, her parents will keep here in that ghoulish state until the end of time.

he went on to have children, Terri should be forced to live on life support -against her expressed wishes?

Would it have made any of you happier, since Terri's cerebral cortex died through no fault of his, if he had live a miserable life never having children and he lived a lonely horrible existence?

you only live one time and life is short, none of this is his fault.

and no where has it been stated by her in any legal document that that is what she wanted while she still had control of her senses. The divorce is what her rapacious parents want because they can't get their way, not Terri.

Attention whores--that's what they are. And until she pops up out of her vegetative state and ask for a divorce, no judge is going to grant one. It would destroy the sanctity of marriage for the courts to allow anyone other than the two who are married to one another to interfere in that marriage.

She is brain dead, she has no idea what is going on around her, and she sure as hell isn't aware of the fact that he has fathered two other children...

husband to do the same as Micheal Schiavo has if I was in a coma...Shit, if I happened to wake up after 15 years in a coma and found out my husband had remained a "virgin" and had not gotten on with his life and "lived" during my coma and inability to be caring for his needs and being a partner, I'd divorce him then just for the fact that he had been "dead" himself during that time.

and expresses herself.

I've seen the video of her, have you?

What you have seen are the parents' edited highly biased tapes.
What the courts and doctors have seen are the unedited version.

Including the first few minutes where her dad "jump starts" her motor reflexes. Sickening.

her parents are not doing it for her but for theirselves and the rw thugery .

Because I've seen nothing of the sort!

And she absolutely does NOT "express" herself...

cerebral cortex, which she doesn't. You can't express yourself either. Her cerebral cortex has liquified. The cerebral cortex is where brain activity takes place that makes us human: thoughts and emotions.

why don't they let her go there.

running to the courts every other day - her parents are.

Let him carry out her wishes already!

Her parents represent the worst evil of the right-wing fascists in this country.

At least try to make some sense, will you?

People who side with her parents are ill.

If she can't possibly be tortured, as you say, since she has no higher brain functions, she likely isn't having any kind of experience at all. There is extremely poor quality of life. Let her rest in peace, already!

... to grind. It's a blessing that their daughter is long gone, diminished to something with only barely-functioning autonomic processes.

The arrogance of "the ends justifies the means" built upon a pile of false beliefs is astonishing.

And they have yet to win a single time in this.

When all is said and done and the Terri's body is finally allowed to pass, the anti-choicers will wail about it to anyone who will listen for a couple of weeks and then descend on someone else's family to exploit for their own agenda.

not in the courts, but in the halls of the Florida Legislature and the office of Jeb Bush who create unconstitutional laws to placate the wackjobs and later are overturned by the courts.

God forbid they should just let her die with dignity. Her parents are abusing the courts as well as their daughter.

No one has the right to file a divorce petition on the behalf of someone else unless they are her legal guardians, which they are not.

and Michael Shiavo is the legal guardian, so only he has standing.

They are gaming the system to get more money from the rightwingnut anti-choicers.

All he wants is to get away from her. Just dissolve the marriage! THAT way, he doesn't have to kill her to marry someone else.

"All he wants is to get away from her."

Blatantly false. All he wants to do is carry out the wishes of the woman he married.

Under the same circumstances, I'd want my wife to be with another man. I'd still want her to fight my family and make certain my wishes are carried out, but I'd want her to continue her life.

If I went into cardiac arrest today and the same thing happened, an identical situation could happen because I have no living will, but my wife knows my wishes!

It's the "I'm gonna starve you first- ain't no two ways about it!" part.

The feeding tube is all that keeps her alive. It IS a life support system.

in calling it "killing." But it IS starving her.

You don't call talking someone off of a respirator "suffocating" or "asphyxiating" them to death. She is not being denied food, she will no longer have a chemical mixture forced into her body, just barely keeping her alive. It is exactly like being taken off a respirator. If you also don't believe in that, then at least you're consistent, and I can respect that. If you think being taken off an artificial breather is okay, then so is this.

Terri no longer feels pain. You need a cerebral cortex for that.

AND: as Catholics, Terri's parents should know the Church allows people to be taken off of life support, INCLUDING FEEDING TUBES, no matter what the whacko priests on Randall Terry's side are saying.

You need a cerebral cortex- PERHAPS...at least that's the theory- to *recognize* that you are feeling pain.

Secondly, taking someone off of life support is nowhere near the same thing as stopping feeding them. There's no analogy there. In one case, you're breathing for them- something they have to be able to do on their own, 24 hours a day. In the other case, you're stopping an activity that they only need every few hours, and in fact dragging out their death for days, and allowing them to die in a very painful way.

Don't argue with me, argue with the courts. And with the Catholic Church, that bastion of liberality, who also recognizes feeding tubes as life support.

If you can't recognize pain, then you're not feeling pain.

I call that feeding a baby.

I'd call feeding Terri feeding a disabled woman.

I'd call feeding a person with no arms feeding someone with no arms. It's not life support.

And I totally disagree with your last statement. Animals don't have cerebral cortexes like we do, yet they feel pain. They just don't understand the fact that they are feeling pain. They don't understand their existence.

You are being ridiculous and you know it.

Terri is NOT DISABLED. She is PVS. The feeding tube she has is legally and medically considered life support. Again, you are absolutely allowed to have your own opinion, but not your own facts. Argue with the legal and medical community over this one, not me. Terri cannot be spoon feed, btw.

STOMACH, where FOOD goes, doesn't matter.

That's called "starvation" that they're using so that she may die (and here I'm going out of my way to say that they're not "killing" her).

is asphyxiating them. You know? TRACH, where OXYGEN goes?

Same thing legally and medically. And, religiously, if you're Catholic.

Is not feeding a man without arms starving him?

Yes. Yes, they are. And there is NO difference, here.

Alternatively, as to your point, is not resuscitating someone who isn't breathing asphyxiating them?

No. No, it's not. You're just not resuscitating them.

But, deliberately not feeding someone who needs food (or whatever you would give them to keep them alive) is starving them. Very simple.

In fact, now that I think about it- you know, if a machine is already breathing for someone, and you take them off of the machine- I suppose you are asphyxiating them.

You'd do well to stick to legal definitions if you want to argue a legal case.

However they're giving her sustenance- by hand or machine- stopping giving her that sustenance is starving her.

This is a legal matter, and legal definitions matter.

I'm simply saying it IS starvation- which others seem to want to argue.

It's pretty hilarious that they're even trying it, too.

Since you're not concerned with the legal aspect of the case.

And THAT'S WHAT THIS IS.

Just to be REAL CLEAR.

STARVATION.

And refusing dialysis is "blood poisoning".

What is it about this PARTICULAR form of life support technology that bothers you so much that you think of it as somehow "worse" than withdrawing other forms of life support?

the respirator IS asphyxiation. They're being deprived of oxygen.

Any time someone dies because they didn't get the oxygen they needed, they asphyxiated.

What is it about this particular form of life support withdrawal that bothers you more than shutting down a respirator or dialysis machine?

begin with, and the suffering involved. That is a nasty way to die.

And, the fact that keeping someone "sustained" (as in "sustenance") is held to a different standard than keeping them breathing. Someone who can't breath on their own is in a much more dire state than someone who just can't feed themselves. They are very different situations.

It talks about the process of dying from food and hydration removal. It doesn't sound nearly as bad as some of you are making it out to be.

http://endoflifecare.tripod.com/Caregiving/id90.html

want to be on life support -forever- under every circumstance, just save your money, write that down, and don't worry about others who disagree.

Why do you want to force everyone to have to do that?

"If you deprive a child of air are you not suffocating it?"

their head. If you deprive a child of air-yes, you are suffocating the child, and will be arrested. But if a child stops breathing on his/her own-well, you are not at fault, and won't be charged with murder.

Just the same, if you want to play semantics: By your standard, disconnecting ventilation machines is the same as asphyxiation.

Terri is incapable of eating, so a device is force feeding her just as a ventilator force breathes for someone.

YOU'RE thinking "smother." You guys are the ones who are trying to interchange those two words with this argument.

By the way, if Terri was fully conscious, for sure, but could only be fed by that machine, and then was taken off of it, would you THEN call it starvation?

why, lordy be, she could TELL us what she wanted, couldn't she?

or make some nod, eye wink, whatever, to let us know she wanted to continue her life.

but she AIN'T. and twisting everything will not make it so.

she indicated to her husband, who is her legal guardian, before this happened, that she DID NOT WANT TO LIVE UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.

if he divorces her, her parents can then FORCE HER TO LIVE UNDER THOSE VERY CIRCUMSTANCES.

he is NOT divorcing her for that very reason. if that is not love for your wife, then i don't know what could be. all the bullshit about the wife and the two kids, is just that. bullshit.

but this really isn't about this case, is it?

it is the whole nine yards. it is about the whole idea that the religous conservative, so-called christians, loud and proud republicans, forcing everyone to live by their rules.

it is about abortion, euthanasia, stem cell reserch.

this is just the beginning.

and you know that. if not, you are a damn fool.

SHAME!

when you are taken off a ventilator. The is what happens to the body. it can't breath on it's own and the body dies from suffocation. Terri cannot take nutrients (breathe) without a feeding tube (ventilator). If the tube (ventilator) is removed, she will starve (asphixiate).

Since everyting that is Terri ceased to exist a long time ago, what is the problem with her husband following her wishes to let her body die in a dignified manner?

removing someone from a ventilator is asphixiation?

If you mean technically, they are "starving" her, yes you can argue that. But if you are trying to claim that what they are doing is illegal or immoral, you are wrong.

Horrible and painful death? Yes, if she still had anything left of a conscious brain, that would be true. But there is NOTHING going on in her brain, no awareness, no Terri there anymore. Terri died over a decade ago. All that remains is the meat. The meat continues to exist because its basic needs are met by someone else, not by Terry, after all she's dead.

If you worship at the altar of this existance, then by all means adjust your will accordingly and make sure you leave behind lots of money for your care.

Just don't try to impose it on anyone else.

that is what makes your point fall flat on its face into the non sequitur.

Can the same be said of Mrs. Schiavo?

If you don't feed them, they will die. The same goes for Terri.

Your same argument would apply to every ventilator and other machine keeping a brain dead person's body alive.

Are you opposed to ever pulling the plug in any case?

It is not my place to criticize or question those who would pull the plug on a brain-dead person. Brain-dead people do not recover from their condition. To keep the unthinking body alive serves no good purpose whatsoever.

A baby with full brain function is a living human being and we have a moral obligation to feed them. A baby with ANY cognitive brain function must be fed.

Terri has no cognitive brain function. There is no Terri there. I am sorry folks find this concept hard to believe. All that you are exists in a very small part of your brain. Destroy that part of the brain and you have been erased from existance.

Sorry if this truth isn't what folks want to here, but that's "life".

Try shoving a piece of fruit in Schiavo's mouth and see what happens.

in this ghoulish state because? It makes you feel better? Some day Jesus may appear and cure her?

You know, since you are being obtuse, I am going to point out that as a bulemic, starving is what Terri did to herself, so it can hardly be considered "against her wishes".

The person that was Terri no longer exists. Even the Catholic Church accepts that.

This is extremely important. I'm holding up the side of an argument that people here have not been taking seriously enough. I'm making this argument from a bio-medical ethical point of view.

I take death seriously- for capital punishment, for war, for abortion, AND for euthanasia. There are standards for each that need to be taken into account.

disagree with you. I take the matter seriously as well and it is clear cut. I am quite satisfied with the science involved. Starving to death would be a horrible way to go for a cogent person. A morphine push is far more humane, but the law is the law.

Instead of arguing with these folks, you need to argue with the lawmakers.

a nasal tube. A baby will cry when it's hungry and will swallow when you put food in it's mouth.

Put food in the mouth of Terri and she will choke on it. I have taken care of people who were essentially no better off than Terri, but they still were able to recognize that they were being fed and would swallow the pureed food they were spoon fed. You quickly learned to sit to the side of them, becasue if they cough, whatever you put in their mouth is going to be on your shirt.

If feeding via nasal tube is the only thing keeping her body alive, it's life support no matter if it's something you need every few seconds or every few hours.

If her parents want to keep something around to remember her by, they could have her freeze dried and propped up in a life-like position. It would make as much sense as keeping the Betsy-wetsy doll that her body is now around. Terri died 15 years ago, her body just hasn't realized it.

She's been virtually dead for years.

He is supposed to live like a eunuch when his wife truly died 15 years ago, but he hasn't been able to bury the body because the ghouls on the right want to keep a person with no chance of recovery keep a living corpse breathing?

In fact, this whole "putting her down for his sake" thing you're pushing is really pretty messed up. This isn't about him, it's about her.

You're saying he's got to kill her to forget about her.

...without ever putting it down on paper and her family came in to try to undermine your wishes would you do the right thing and live up to last and most important responsibility as a husband or would you just walk away?

Honor, obligation, and responsibility dictate that I fight to the end to carry out my spouse's wishes, and in return I expect the same.

I am not a person who takes the easy way out. Your mileage may vary.

It had better be clear as day before I wrote my wife off, that's for sure.

she's not conscious.

You have already admitted you would NEVER "pull the plug" because you "can't get inside her head".

Most likely you wouldn't be "damned sure" unless Jesus Christ brought your wife down from heaven in front of a bunch of witnesses telling you to let the body die.

Or prove me wrong! Tell me EXACTLY what would convince you that it's time to let go? Since you don't believe the scores of doctors who have examined this case at length, what would it take?

I'm just saying I'd have to be sure that she wasn't there.

HOWEVER- I WILL say that I would NEVER, EVER STARVE my wife.

Here's the test- if you're so sure that she really IS gone--- if you are SO, SO sure- you'd better be at the point where you could do something to her that you know for SURE would kill her, right away.

I.E. OD'ing her.

If he's SO damned sure, he should shoot her up with a syringe full of morphine. THAT'S a good husband.

None of this "Oh, we're just gonna starve her" shit.

Obviously, the opinions of every neurologist are meaningless to you, so tell me EXACTLY how you would make the determination?

but they're not gods, like you seem to think. They're very fallible people, and they don't know nearly as much as you think they do.

To be honest, I don't know how I'd do it. But I sure wouldn't try to absolve myself of the responsibility by playing this "hey, I didn't do it" game.

Years of medical history are wrong that are the basis for that opinions are wrong in this case?

All the court decisions are wrong in this case?

All our understanding about what happens when you don't have a cerebral cortex are wrong in this case?

15 years of being in a persistant vegetative state without any improvement are wrong in this case?

Other than one quack hired by the right wing nutcases exploiting this family, EVERYONE who has studied this case has come to the exact same conclusion.

Why are determined to second-guess the rights and responsibilities of the marriage contract between Michael and Terri?

And if you CAN'T accept Michael's decision in this case, then what makes you think anyone should respect your wishes and responsibilities regarding your own marriage?

You can't have it both ways. Without solid evidence of sinister motives on the part of Michael, you have to respect the marriage contract between Michael and Terri and if you can't do that, then you have no expectation that anyone should respect your marriage contract and the decisions and conversations and agreements between you and your spouse.

as being MARRIED, I wouldn't be with another woman. And, if I was, I wouldn't sit there and maintain that I "have her best interests in mind." Michael HAS moved on, and away from his responsibilities to Terri. 15 years, right? 15 years' worth of moving on.

He has a very clear conflict of interest in this decision that he's making, here. I wouldn't expect anyone to take my decision seriously if I was in his position.

And the fact is that not EVERY neurologist, or even necessarily MOST neurologists would say that Terri is TOTALLY unconscious. In any case, whatever the neurologists say, you can't tell what Terri's state of mind is without actually being IN Terri's head. None of us can do that. And whether or not she has improved or will improve is totally beside the point. What matters is her state of mind at that moment, or in the very near future.

Again, this garbage with starving her doesn't help their case, either. If they're so sure, they shouldn't have a problem with doing it themselves, quickly and deliberately. I also think that if the decision rests on Michael, then he should be the one to do it.

...regarding her care in the event that she could not: her husband.

Every day in every city someone makes a decision regarding the medical care of a spouse who is incapacitated. The fact that no one can read your mind in that state is the precise reason YOUR choice of a representative matters.

Hell, why not take a .357 in and make it instantaneous?

In case you haven't noticed, in this "enlightened" society we live in, according to the law, a morphine overdose would be "murder".

The only LEGAL way for her to die is to have the feeding tube removed.

That's the point- it's not murder, if she's no longer a person.

And, it DID occur to me that you could use a gun. But, I thought people would object to that because of the messiness, and the desecration of her body. And they would have missed the point in concentrating on that.

A morphine push is legally murder. If you do it, you will be arrested and charged.

Removing the feeding tube is LEGAL.

If you have a problem with the method, contact your congressman and state rep.

That's beside the point that I'm making.

That's the point. He isn't some kind of completely devout Catholic who is 100% against divorce or anything. He could wash his hands of her right now -- YEARS ago -- and his life would be so much less complicated. What he is doing is called love, respect, compassion, and keeping a promise to someone you love no matter how damn hard it is for you.

Michael is getting nothing out of this. There is NO money, no matter what all the RW smear sites say. Terri's is basically a ward of the state concerning her medical care, and lawyers don't work for free.

HE IS TRYING TO DO RIGHT BY THE WOMAN HE LOVES. sheesh.
I would want my hubby to move on but still to respect my wishes re:life support, etc.

He's trying to save her from continued "life" trapped in solitary.

To copy the phrase of another DUer in the last thread on this "She's dead and gone, her body just didn't get the message."

He, should he wish to, would be able to divorce her and give her over to her parents, that has been stated multiple times. Stop treating it like he's trying to get rid of her for some convience, the subject matter is more complicated than some simple slogans and harsh words.

If I were in her posision I would want to be allowed to finish dieing!

You obviously feel very emotionally about this, but you are taking a very simplistic point of view on this. She has no operationa cerebral cortex. AKA She works as well as my computer would if I were to yank out the CPU. It would be able to power up and do basic functions, but not be able to do anything with any of the parts past the most basic features suce as powering up and running it's BIOS.

to conform to her wishes on the matter. Are you opposed to all instances of people being allowed to die, or only in the case of a feeding tube?

I am so tired of hearing this shit about Micheal. He is a true Christian, no matter what his belief in god is. He has loved Terri enough all of this years to put with with untold, unimaginable abuse to see her wishes carried out. To see her DIGNITY carried out. I absolutely don't fault him with wanting love and companionship in his life. It is no way disrespecting Terri. She can no longer love him, but he can love her, and does.

Face it, people: it would be so much easier for him to divorce her. No more ugly rumors that he was a wife beater, that he wants to kill her, nothing. He's getting nothing out of this, no money, no glory, nothing. The very opposite, in fact. He's a good man. I agree with Walt, he's a hero. And Randall Terry is scum, and Terri's parents are either dupes or evil people.

aren't evil.

The human brain is probably the most complicated and least understood thing on this planet. When psychologists come along and say they know what someone is thinking, or not thinking, everyone should carry a healthy skepticism.

And what is evil is if they are exploiting here. I said there are either dupes OR evil.

I am no longer arguing whether or not she'll never regain consciousness. There is nothing there. NOTHING. You are definitely allowed your own opinion on taking someone off of life support, and I would never, ever disrespect you for that choice. But, you are not allowed to make up your own facts, and you and everyone else on these Schiavo threads do that when you say no one knows she isn't there. She isn't there. It is a fact. The brain is indeed complicated, but NEUROSURGEONS and many, many other medical experts (not psychologists... who mentioned them?) know for a fact that without your cerebral cortex, you're gone. It's like sitting in a car without an engine and turning the key over and over, wondering why the car won't start. It can't, unless you put a new engine in there.

Say what you want, I'm gonna go shovel snow and say a prayer for Michael Schiavo.

That's what you don't know. And- you don't. I'm not making anything up.

we are talking about the opinions of neurobilogists. Different discipline with a lot more in the way of demonstrable fact behind it.

For thoughts to occur, for cognition to EXIST you must have electrical activity in certain parts of the brain. Certain levels exist when you are awake, another level exists when you sleep, and yet another when you are in a coma. However, when those activities cease altogether, YOU as a COGENT human being, cease to exist.

The question of human cognition was not left to a bunch of people putting other people on couches and trying to find out if toilet training traumatized them. This is about neuropathologists and neurobiologists who have studied and quantified this issue for over a half century.

It's called science.

That says: Born (date), Departed from us (date of PVS), At Peace (date of physical death). Very poignant. That says it all. Terri Schiavo is gone. She's dead, she'll never be back. Her physical shell has been kept alive for over a decade, and it is time to finally kiss her goodbye and lay her body to rest. It's owed to her to have her dignity and respect restored. This whole disgusting exercise has been morbid beyond belief. Let her go.

It's a medical fact. All of the doctors agree on this, except for the quack RW one her parents "hired." And yeah, he is a quack -- he's on several "quack watch" sites.

You talk like you do. I think it would be appropriate for you to divulge any relationship you have, tho in broad terms.

No, I don't have any relationship with him, and I wasn't aware I was talking like I do anymore than anyone else on this thread is.

If he is Terri's husband, then why should he have a girlfriend and 2 children? Would you consider a man like that to be your husband, if he got himself a lady love and two kids on the side?

...while my husband was trying to follow my wishes, then I would fully support his trying to build what happiness he could for himself while trying to fulfill his last obligations to our marriage.

I don't expect my husband to live lonely or loveless for 15 years while a tug-of-war is being played with my empty shell that isn't being allowed to die.

one wouldn't be considering much of anything.

Terri is dead, but not at peace. She's not returning to her body. She hasn't returned in 15 years.. she is not going to get better. She is not going to recover. She is less than a grown baby, because at least a baby has a functioning brain. At least a baby will root for the nipple. Terri has to be fed because she doesn't naturally seek food automatically, as does a baby.

The commandment of "Let no man put asunder"--includes your mama and daddy interfering in your marriage. If he is removed against his will from being his wife's guardian, then it puts the validity of every single marriage in this country in jeopardy-more so than the wedge issue of allowing gays to marry. It will allow anyone, at will, to challenge the validity of a marriage by intefering in that marriage against the wishes of the married couple.

As far as Terri is concerned, only a shell remains--one that can't make a consideration in anything, including her folks pimping her for pity and money.

He's with another woman now and he's fathered two children by her.

Sure looks like moving on to me.

Death with dignity. Not a life on machines.

I don't buy into slander and innuendo put forth by groups that have a political agenda involved in this.

And shame on you for assuming he is a monster trying to "kill" a woman who really died in every way 15 years ago.

You're not in her head. You can't tell, and no one else can, either.

her cerebral cortex has been replaced with spinal fluid.

...for a brain tissue.

:silly: They never take the time to read the court documents either.
It's all emotion.

How can you honestly say you know what's going on in her mind? How can ANYONE say that?

You can't. And you're talking about starving her.

And, if they're so sure, why are they starving her (as if that absolves them of some kind of responsibility?) Why don't they OD her and get it over with? It's quicker, and if she IS there it's a lot less painful.

It's just scrambled.
You need to read up on what the cerebral cortex is responsible for.

I know the brain. nt

based on findings from the doctors.

...as well as the courts that have come to that same conclusion not once, but multiple times.

How can they tell what's going on in her mind?

...but you are right.

Her brain has atrophied. Her cerebral cortex is almost completely made of fluid....not brain tissue.

She is an empty vessel. A tabula rasa that cannot be re-written to.

This is not my opinion. This is medical science.

There is only one recorded case of someone coming out of a persistent vegetative state and that person did have the extent of brain damage, brain shrinkage, and atrophy displayed in this particular case.

have told them that.

Tell me- what's death like, LV?

Are you talking consistant vegetative state, which includes catatonic schizophrenia.

Are you talking Comatose?

Are you talking by having a non functioning cerebral cortex?

So far as anyone knows, nobody's cerebral cortex has gone missing and they've lived. It's the same as the baby who was born without a cerbral cortex a few years ago, there was a big fight over basically a bag of flesh. A house with no owner.

Clearly.

What's at issue is whether or not she's conscious. And you can't tell.

They can tell.

PET scans on, and got a certain result with, told them that they were brain-dead?

and that spinal fluid had replaced it.

When did they do tests on dead and brain-dead people with the PET scan, after which the dead or brain-dead people said to them, "Oh, no, I was brain-dead?"

A pet scan of Terri's brain would look very different from an intact
brain.

Ahhhh.....

If anyone said not speaking was proof of brain death you'd have a point.

But no one did.

and being proof of consciousness, or the lack thereof.

I'm still waiting on that proof that PET scans can conclusively show a lack of consciousness. It would seem that somewhere down the line, in order to show that, you'd have to have one of those talking brain-dead guys.

You remind me of the tobacco guys saying no proof smoking causes cancer.

"Until the cancer can speak and testify that it was linked to smoking there is no conclusive proof. And not even then."

Cancer is observable.

I'm just not sure where these guys are getting the lack of consciousness in their "experiments," since they can't TELL.

DAMN, dude.

though we cant have someone who is brain dead, verbally tell us so we can get a pretty clear indication when we scan their brain. why? because we can compare charts on people who have normal activity and people who don't.
on another note my grandmother suffered from alzheimers for 10 years, and she died five years before her body did. how could i tell? well, she didn't tell me, but i can tell because she couldn't eat by herself, she couldn't remember her own daughters, she showed SO much frustration until one day she decided to die. she decided to stop taking food or water, so does that mean that my mom should have put her on a feeding tube, because we really couldn't tell that she wasn't conscious anymore?? its a decision, and decision that one has to make.

should be, that is proof.
Her cerebral cortex atrophied;it no longer
exists.
And I really must not say the obvious. ;)

Damn.

Yes, not everything is known about the brain,
but enough has been determined about the cerebral cortex to establish what the absence of one means.

It's been framed as a RW vs liberal/fundie vs sane/antichoice vs prochoice situation.

Come join us at Disability Issues and Activism issues for some rational, humane discussion.

...with no chance of recovery. Parts of her brain still function, but that part of her brain that allows for and controls everything we call "sentience" no longer exists. She is more like an organic machine than a sentient being now.

Nothing that made Terri Schiavo who she was exists there anymore, nor can science and therapy create something from the nothingness that now exists. She is a blank slate that cannot be written to.

which reveals brain activity. Her EEGs are flat lines, indicating no synapses firing. It's a fact - you starve the brain of oxygen for over 3 minutes and the brain dies. It's also a fact that a flat EEG indicates no brain activity. Her parents and Jeb Bush are really disgusting.

have you ever seen her in person? YOu speak as if you are inside this woman's head yourself, as if you have first hand knowledge of something... do share, won't you? Your medical credentials in neurology are....? You practice where and for how long?

There are entire battery of test to determine brain death.

If there is NO electrical activity in the congnitive center of the brain, then that person no longer exists. Sorry, basic physics come into play here. Even a person in a deep coma has electrical activity in the brain stem. When this activity is GONE, you are GONE.

Unless you can demonstrate some way of congnition that doesn't involve electrical impulses in the brain, the absence of these impulses equals DEATH.

How brain death is determined:

Conventional Cerebral Angiography

Selective 4-vessel angiography may be performed in the neuroradiology department. In patients with brain death, intracerebral filling is absent at the level of the carotid bifurcation or circle of Willis, whereas the external carotid circulation is patent.

Electroencephalography

A 16- or 18-channel instrument and guidelines developed by the American Electroencephalographic Society are used to determine brain death. In patients with brain death, no electrical activity occurs during a period of at least 30 minutes of electroencephalographic recording.

Transcranial Doppler Sonography

In transcranial Doppler sonography, intracranial arteries are insonated bilaterally (ie, middle cerebral artery through the temporal bone above the zygomatic arch). Ten percent of patients may not have temporal insonation windows. Therefore, initial absence of Doppler signals cannot be interpreted as consistent with brain death. Findings consistent with brain death indicate high vascular resistance associated with greatly increased intracranial pressure and include (1) absent diastolic or reverberating flow, (2) systolic-only flow or retrograde diastolic flow, and (3) small systolic peaks in early systole. Blood flow velocities may be influenced by marked changes in Pco2, hematocrit, and cardiac output.

Somatosensory and Brain Stem Auditory Evoked Potentials

Testing for somatosensory evoked potentials is done at the bedside with a portable instrument that provides bilateral stimulation of median nerves. In studies of patients with brain death, most patients had no responses to tests for somatosensory and brain stem auditory evoked potentials. Both types of tests are less sensitive than previously mentioned confirmatory tests.

Cerebral Blood Flow and Magnetic Resonance Imaging Studies
In one investigation, patients who met clinical criteria for brain death had no responses to tests for brain stem auditory evoked potentials and no cerebral perfusion as measured by radionuclide cerebral angiography and brain perfusion studies. Cerebral blood flow studies with xenon 133 have also been used to confirm brain death, and magnetic resonance imaging has been explored as a noninvasive method for determining the nonfilling phenomenon that occurs in brain death. In patients with brain death, technetium Tc 99m brain scans show no uptake of the radionuclide in brain parenchyma (“hollow skull phenomenon”).

Neurophysiological technology and neurodiagnostic testing have great promise for becoming the gold standards for confirmatory tests of brain death. However, current investigations of technology-driven confirmatory tests still require further replication and clinical application.

Having a clear understanding of how brain death is determined and being able to recognize that the criteria for brain death differ from the cardiopulmonary criteria used to determine death are the first steps in eliminating the confusion and misconceptions often associated with brain death. Family members of patients with brain death need reassurance and accurate information. They may think that their loved one has a heartbeat and is therefore being “kept alive” by mechanical ventilation. They may also think that their loved one will get better through treatment or intensive rehabilitation.

First and foremost, brain death is irreversible. Patients who are brain dead have permanently lost the capacity to think, be aware of self or surroundings, experience, or communicate with others.

The common pathological processes leading to brain death include massive head trauma, intracranial hemorrhage, and hypoxic ischemic damage suffered during cardiopulmonary arrest. These conditions rapidly produce marked brain edema, which increases brain volume. Because of the skull’s fixed capacity, the increase in brain volume produces an inevitable increase in intracranial pressure causing two morbid events to occur: (1) herniation and infarction of the brain stem as it is forcibly displaced from its original location; and (2) loss of cerebral perfusion pressure as intracranial pressure exceeds mean arterial blood pressure.

http://www.aacn.org/aacn/jrnlccn.nsf/0/5ebf8de743ead0fa8825674e005a8950?OpenDocument

As I said, this is not a bunch of people guessing.

She's breathing on her own. She's not brain dead.

autonomic functions are still working but she is cognitively DEAD>

THEN you said:

"Even a person in a deep coma has electrical activity in the brain stem. When this activity is GONE, you are GONE."

She's breathing on her own. She has brain stem activity.

So, which is it?

there are 18 channels on an EEG, the ones that deal with high order cognition are FLAT.

.

He's stuck with his wife through what has to be unimaginable harassment with creeps picketing his home and his work, false accusations, offers of huge sums of money for him to walk away, politicaly motivated investigations and on and on..

All the evidence points to him attempting to carry out her wishes not to be on life support.

keep her on life support forever--or keep her corpse warm, depending on your evaluation of her state.

I actually think he doesn't want that for her sake.

shrine for every single sick fundie pilgrim in America.

I mean, they are already have a prayer card with her image on it....

And no, I am not making this up.

He is respecting her wishes like her own parents and siblings should !

done it then. What can I say, I believe Michael and you believe the parents and the brother ?
I also believe the
Doctors, tests and courts
who rule
she is brain dead and her head is full of spinal fluid so it does not work now and it never will.

into PVS, remember?

out of ways to keep the inevitable from happening.

believe. I was being sarcastic when saying she should have filed and done it. The family has resorted to all kinds of tactics and I find it shameful and could not agree more with Walt and you.

...rather than the known facts?

that's rich

I'd expect for him to say that--he's looking for some $$$ too.

He has no proof that Terri told him this, either.

or do i have that wrong?

I don't think there is any money left now anyhow.(above)
He is after fulfilling Terri's wish.

you might want to try to familiarize yourself with the facts before demonstrating how flimsy your grasp on them really is.

What does he have to lose by granting the divorce. He's already moved on with his life and Terri will never be able to be a wife to him again.

Dissolve the marriage and let him marry the woman he's had two children with. What about the kids?

He should have started the divorce proceedings when it became apparent he and Terri would never be together again, especially since children are involved in his current relationship. The divorce would allow him to marry this woman and give her legal protection under the law; for example, Social Security benefits in the event of his death. The childern could still be the beneficiaries, but not his girlfriend.

The woman he's living with needs the legal protection only a husband in the legal sense can provide. What about her?

Let Terri's parents deal with their daughter the way they see fit. I don't think they're right in keeping her alive and I think eventually they'll accept that she'll never come back to them the way she was. If they are deluding themselves, it's sad. Being a parent myself I can understand how they feel.

If Terri, however, had specifically requested she not be kept alive if brain dead, it should have been in writing. Because it wasn't, that's why this whole thing is such a mess.

As far as the right wing kooks are concerned -- they should just butt out as they have no standing in this case.

"Let Terri's parents deal with their daughter the way they see fit. I don't think they're right in keeping her alive and I think eventually they'll accept that she'll never come back to them the way she was. If they are deluding themselves, it's sad. Being a parent myself I can understand how they feel."

Terri's parents at one point testified under oath that they
would amputate her arms and legs and subject her to open heart
surgery if necessary to keep her alive in this condition. When
Michael heard this, he knew he had to act to protect her.

<http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-locmiket25022505feb25,1,1729313.column?ctrack=2&cset=true>

"If Terri, however, had specifically requested she not be kept alive if brain dead, it should have been in writing. Because it wasn't, that's why this whole thing is such a mess."

This whole thing is a mess because Terri's parents won't
recognize the law, and the reality.

Just so's ya know.

You have to be one of the married people - i.e., wife or husband - to file for divorce.

This latest joke of a maneuver tells me they're out-of-their-minds desperate, and have nothing left in their righteous quivers. Without Jeb Bush and the FL legislature, they're up shit creek.

So, the countdown begins. Wanna bet someone firebombs something?

Full of facts and legal stuff and not afraid to take a stand.

Full of facts and legal stuff and not afraid to take a stand.

after death?

I thought her parents were "good" Catholics? "Terri would not want this because she would follow the Church's teaching on life and death issue." THERE IS NO DIVORCE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Hello? HYPOCRITES?

Jeebus. How badly does Randall Terry and all his radical RW nut friends have this family brainwashed?

I hope this is dismissed with particularly tart language and a large fine for wasting the court's time. These are precisely the kind of tactics Terry used when he was head of Operation Rescue. It's too bad he has new friends now who are willing to indulge his sick fantasies.

Terry got the crap sued out of him for those same tactics..Florida has laws that somewhat protect people from judgments from other states I believe.

A lot of people move to Florida after being sued.

I cant imagine what the husband has gone through over the years dealing with these sick twisted people.

why don't they let their daughter pass on to heaven?

Would that settle it for the family? I think it will be worse for him personally if he is responsible for pulling the feeding tube. I don't understand why there has to be only one conclusion.

it's nobody else's right to tell him he must divorce his wife.

While I sympathize for the parents, they're being used as tools of a radical right-wing group. They have made countless baseless accuasations against Michael Schiavo, they have court-shopped to a degree I've never seen, and they've still lost at every turn.

A judge needs to make them stop.

This is nothing more than a power play by them to promote a political agenda.

so he can marry someone else.

So, he's like "NO- she's got to DIE before I marry this other woman"? What the hell is that?

All he's trying to do is carry out the wishes of the woman he loved and married.

he's fulfilling his obligation. Her parents are liars and dupes. He's a hero.

someone he loved.
there is no hope for her. her parents are delusional.

care of her for the rest of HIS life. Why didn't he remember her wishes back then, when it mattered? I think he and his lawyer estimated her life expectancy as a very long one. Not once did they mention they were going to have her feeding tube removed.

he refuses to divorce her.

If the parents feel so strongly about keeping the feeding tubes in, against the advice of doctors who say she is brain dead, why not let them get divorced and then the parents can do what they want?