U.S.-Italy Relations Chilled by Killing of Agent

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050305/ts_nm/iraq_italy_relations_dc&cid=564&ncid=1480


The shooting was the worst diplomatic incident between Italy and the United States since 1998, when a U.S. Marines jet flying recklessly low and fast cut a ski lift cable, killing 20 people.


<snip>


The agent had helped free Sgrena a month after she had been kidnapped and held hostage. Sgrena returned to Rome on Saturday. Calipari's coffin will follow.

"The hardest moment was when I saw the person who had saved me die in my arms," Sgrena's long-time companion quoted her as saying on her flight back to Rome.


Such poignant words are fueling national rage.


Berlusconi, whom the opposition accuses of taking orders from Washington, put on a brave face but leading newspaper Corriere della Sera cited political sources as saying he was furious.



I hope to see lots of these this weekend in Italy!

was married, had two children and was a skilled hostage negotiator.
Bush made a five minute phone call to "express" his concern, five minutes.
The whole incident is a metaphor for his entire Iraq war.

More blood on bush's hands....



Rosa Maria Calipari, widow of Italian Police officer Nicola Calipari, center , leaves her house in Rome, Saturday, March 5, 2005. Calipari was killed in Iraq (news - web sites) by fire coming from an US armoured vehicle while he was escorting in a car Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena to Baghdad airport after her liberation. (AP Photo/Angelo

hope it's as anti-Bush as this incident would dictate.

Osama mask. Who wouldn't shoot at Osama?

going on over there. Could it be that she discovered more than she should have about some covert work that was going down. Maybe, she wasn't supposed to live.

Well, I guess Mr Negroponte will have to take his Death Squad leader to the woodshed!

People of Italy, in case you don't understand yet: America (as represented by its leaders) doesn't give a shit about you or anyone else living outside God's Favorite Country. You are meaningless pawns, only useful when, like your leader, you can be manipulated into giving us support. So, one of your heroes was killed by our forces for no apparent reason. Who cares? It wouldn't matter to us if it had happened to a thousand of you. Your "national tragedy" will barely merit a story at the bottom of the front page, heavily quoting military sources to make it look like it was your slain agent's fault. Bush will make a perfunctory apology, and it will go straight down the national memory hole. Forget about that -- let's hear more about Jacko and the next NASCAR event.

You foreigners mean nothing to us. Never have, never will. Don't forget it -- now, take that with your Freedom Fries.

:puke:

America, either. We are pawns to them, and their ultra-wealthy masters, also.

think they'll pull their troops out now?.........I would......

This hit him personally. I hope that you are right on this one. Italy is the third largest force in Iraq. And 90 percent of the population is against the occupation.

getting something out of it,maybe in the way of weapons or planes. They don't need our money.

truely pathetic.

There are a lot of possibilities, but none that I am sure are fact. All I can be sure of is that Italians don't like this war at all and they are not very happy with the excessive involvement Italy plays in it. I am just hoping Berlusconi is finally ticked off enough to pull out of the war.

and the fact that he's a Bush bud, you don't think he had advanced notice of what appears to be another hit on a journalist?

The Italian media is saying he was popping champagne corks over the rescue operation. Was that staged?

Nicola was too important and not replaceable. He wouldn't put one of his best at harm's way if this were staged. We are dealing with two countries that leave a lot behind closed doors, so I couldn't tell you what the truth is. Almost no one knows. Who knows if we ever will?

Edit: I shouldn't say 'harm's way', but he wouldn't purposefully have a journalist right next to him assassinated.

The Colosseum lit up and other fanfare for Sgrena's return was likely Berlussconi's attempt to showcase his "leadership" in the face of constant public pressure to pull troops from Iraq. This was his chance to shine. Bush blew it for him, and now Berlussconi is the goat for being a Bush ally and is under even more pressure to remove Italians from Iraq.

An interesting state of affairs...

that is associated with Bush gets diminished.

that there is a knife to their back and if they displease * then the knife comes plunging at them....

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en /

THE NATION CALLS FOR RELEASE OF GIULIANA SGRENA

Florence and the others
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 14 January 2005

Ten thousand Iraqis in US and British prisons
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 29 December 2004

Two thousand victims in Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena, Iraq
il manifesto 26 November 2004

Napalm Raid on Falluja?
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 23 November 2004

The death throes of Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena
ilmanifesto 13 November 2004

“Stop the massacre”
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 12 November 2004

Bombs and tanks, hell breaks in Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 09 November 2004

Interview with an Iraki woman tortured at Abu Graib.
Giuliana Sgrena, our correspondent in Baghdad
il manifesto 01 July 2004

“Imminent attack” against Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 06 November 2004

Flight from a Falluja massacred by bombs
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifestp 21 October 2004

UN: US crimes in Iraq
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 05 June 2004


Now ask your self something. Why would the Iraqis who want the US out of Iraq want this woman kidnapped or killed? I smell a Negroponte type "El Salvador" option in action here. This is his MO.

Don

(Pulled from the DU thread)

Italy isn't the only country to have been 'hit'. And so far there has been no price paid by the U.S.

....journalists. Prove it.

they think there's cause for suspicion.

And Al Jezeera also is suspicious about incidents involving their reporters, in Yugoslavia and in Baghdad (remember the Palestine hotel?).

.....wow, now that's an objective source.

You people who hate our troops make me want to puke. Sure, there are some bad apples in the 150,000 that are there. Any group of 150,000 people has some bad apples.

Accusing our troops of murder without proof, and believing every negative or wild-ass conspiracy story about them is just one of the reasons why the other side controls the White House, the Senate, the Congress, the Supreme Court and God-only-knows what else.

We're marginalizing ourselves with our own paranoia.

I have a nephew over there. I like him a lot. He's a good kid, who didn't have much of a future, and signed up to defend his country. He says we shouldn't be in Iraq, we should be in Afghanistan. He also says his fellow soldiers feel the same way.

I'm quite sure most of the troops are decent kids just like him, who shrub has decided are disposable, and useful only for cannon fodder. I'm also pretty sure that some of our troops are not as decent, or have been brainwashed into thinking some of the things they're doing are right.

"marginalizing" is an interesting word. A lot of freepers use it. One told me people like me need to be "marginalized". I don't really see it a lot on here, so I couldn't help but notice - that, along with all your posts defending this administration are somewhat curious to me.

....welcomed good news. Somehow, some on here seem to think that all good news must be the responsibility of the criminal cabal in Washington and therefore only negative news seems to be met with joy.

We are 'marginalizing' ourselves. Look at the election results if you don't believe me.

God Bless your nephew. I wish him a safe and speedy trip home to his loved ones.

On the issue of hating our government, we're in agreement.

....JFK.

Next.

And all those hundreds of thousands of votes that got screwed up were just a little mistake. And all the votes that went to shrub when they pressed Kerry were a mistake, and all the disenfranchised dem voters couldn't vote cause it was a mistake, and now all the bush voters just have buyer's remorse, and that's why his approval rating is so low. And every error was in the shrub's favor by accident. Yeah, right.

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you, and I'm pretty sure you're on the wrong board.

....this is the conspiracy board, right?

She was shot. She was not a combatant. It was not a stray bullet.

If one shoots at a car in the United States, where there are plenty of murders and plenty of incidents where cars hit and kill pedestrians, and one kills someone, it is considered murder and should be considered murder.

The same logic applies in Iraq.

...it's a war zone over there. The US soldiers have rules of engagement.

The ones that take into account human rights tend to be violated constantly. My concern is for what actually happened, not for what some military propagandist says could not have happened thanks to the "rules of engagement."

Wars are full of atrocities, a very good reason to oppose the vast majority of them, but the fact that this is not isolated does not make it any more justifiable.

It's a terrible tragedy at the least, and perhaps something much greater at the worst.

All I've suggested is that we hold our tongues on accusing our troops of MURDER before we know the facts.

That is what I am missing from your arguments.

What possible truths about this incident that have a significant chance of being factual do you think would excuse the soldiers in question?

Or have you already decided that they're liars as well as murderers?

Then again, it does appear that you believe nothing 'factual' can change your mind.

unless the reports I take for truth are in fact not truthful, or something I do not consider significantly possible in fact happened.

by whom?, CNN reporters EMBEDDED by the DOD and RummDumm? That will be thourough, no doubt. /sarcasm off/

through obstruction or cover up, then we can never say anything?

Look at our history. The assassination of JFK was covered up, so we must tow the party line?

Look at the coverups revolving around 9/11. If the gov't wanted to get to the bottom of it, why all of the obstruction to the fact finders.

Look at the facts. The car carrying the reporter had successfully passed multiple checkpoints and the troops were aware that their car was coming. It was not speeding as would a suicide bomber. Hundreds of rounds were fired at the car.

Sounds extremely suspicious. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

some of the "rules of engagement" stink. This wasn't a situation that violence was needed. I think it warrants further investigation. It reeks...

Well how often do we hear about these rules of engagement slaughtering innocents? It's always some car full of families that just doesn't stop despite "warnings." In a war zone, especially one where we are loosing, it is not hard to believe they may shoot at anything that moves. This situation is the fault of the administration... the troops are the ultimate victims. I can't say I wouldn't be trigger happy if I dealt with daily car bombings.

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What in the hell is wrong with a lot of us believing that a war criminal and his regime are capable of working together in an attempt to keep journalists away from a country where we circle around entire cities, only let certain people out, and then bomb the hell out of it with explosives and chemical weapons?

I think I first heard the term "coincidence theorist" on AAR. In spite of everything we know about the administration and their will to control, buy off, and manipulate the media, your coincidence theories are suspect, not ours.

You are on the wrong forum if you think that this is what the DU is....I suggest you go to http://www.freerepublic.com

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not by over-harsh criticism.

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...and even to John Kerry, for that matter.

They're thinning the herd people, we are being marginalized with insane murder accusations and conspiracy theories before we know the facts.

The herd of politicians who think it's more important to grab that piece of the pie, keep a comfy office & all the perks that go with it, while upholding a system which touts the "ownership" society, glamorizes a corrupt military, empowers the "law" with unheard of violations of rights, destroys the work ethic under the guise of "free trade", celebrates both consumerism & hopeless debt, rapes world resources in the name of "good economy", & tags, numbers, & files its citizens to "secure" the homeland?

Or did you mean the HORDES of honest, working people who struggle most of their lives to keep one step ahead of the poorhouse & view most elections as hilarious games for the rich? The millions of "have-nots" in this country who know that gap has forever been widening, not because they read about it in some book, but because they've lived right on the edge for generations & can see with their own eyes exactly what the bottom of that chasm looks like!

The smartest thing John Kerry ever did was wag his finger at the military 34 years ago & point directly at the vile government who controlled it! It's only too bad he couldn't have mustered up the courage to make that sort of stand again.

eom

You'd rather sit back and wait for a verdict from the US media... or the US government? You'd rather make an assumption about the innocence of these soldiers, or more importantly, the innocence of our government... the government that imprisons thousands of people without trial... that has murdered tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis... that has supressed dissent?

Your claim that we are being marginalized because we seek to find out the whole truth about this episode seems to be a ploy to shame us out of our mission. After all, if we dare talk about this, or ask questions about how our government might have been involved, we're hurting our side... right? :eyes:

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I'm not afraid to use it because I see it happening.

Look at our numbers in the Congress and the Senate.

It's fucking frightening.

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Is pure propaganda.

when you can just believe the American military. Blind obedience maybe, but it is easier to look in the mirror. Well fuck that! Maybe they control all three branches because not enough people were willing to think this past election, and you sound like you are ready to jump headlong in that direction. It is not a "wild-ass conspiracy story" to suggest that some of our soldiers are doing some bad things. Hell, you even said yourself, "there are some bad apples in the 150,000 that are there. Any group of 150,000 people has some bad apples", so why is this hard to believe? Remember the soldier that said, "the chick got in the way"? Sure maybe it was an accident, but to be so callous about it, says alot too! Yes, this latest incident requires investigation, and we should all wait for the facts. But you can keep your "hate the troops" crap to yourself, because shit like this happens in war, and is made even more senseless when the war could have been avoided!

....he's looking at me. Make him stop.

Damn right this incident needs INVESTIGATION and it's outlandish for us to be accusing our boys of murder until the results are in.

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....people die. Saying something 'callous' is the last thing we should fret about.

Look... I know that the soldiers sound like monsters at heart when they say stuff that seems callous to us. I have never been in battle, but I've been told that a lot of people deal with the violence by numbing themselves and de-humanizing the enemy -- which in this case is anything that moves toward you that isn't a US vehicle.

Some of our troops do say horrible things, and from only one year in 1 year in Navy ROTC, I suspect a lot of them do. It doesn't make it all-right and I know most on here probably could never imagine taking life and not really thinking about it, but I'm willing to bet a lot of us have not seen battle like in Iraq. Just to live with myself, I'd have to think of the people as less-than-human and I am sure I would struggle once having that mentality, like many vets do.

Perhaps people understand what I am saying, but I'd like to acknowledge the insanity over there while trying to imagine filling their shoes. I believe the administration is directly responsible for ALL of this and limit the responsibility of the people on the ground.

And again, you are waiting for accurate results from the US government. According to the people at the top of this government, there are WMD in Iraq.

is at least as objective as CNN and more much more objective than Fox.

More than almost any other media outlet.

Don't believe me - look at their stories and compare.

At least their more reliable than ANY US media.

Al Jazeera was formed by former BBC "JOURNALIST" - not talking heads like we have - who wanted to form a middle eastern based news agency.

NONE of these JOURNALISTS has EVER been found to speak anything other than the TRUTH.

Wish our media whores could stand up to their caliber.

it was formed mainly by BBC journalists and they continue to adhere to the same high standards of journalistic integrity that BBC is known for. I agree that you can't say the same about most US outlets.

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Sadly, true.

If not, how do you know how objective it is?

Can you understand Arabic?

translate to "hating the troops"? I think the US military has been engaged in murdering journalists for some time. That is, the guys at the top have given the orders. The US certainly has motive to keep what's really happening in Iraq out of the public domain. Too many journalists have been offed to be a coincidence.

Can I prove that? Of course not! Given that we have probably the most secretive administration in our history, it's not likely the evidence will ever be available. That doesn't mean one can't speculate, question, and have an opinion in the matter.

Given that we have Negroponte running things over there now, it's dead certain he's ass-deep in the "Salvador Option". Sgrena wasn't supposed to get out of Iraq alive.

there was a case where the American military shot up a hotel where non-embedded reporters were staying. There have been a number of reporters killed (I don't know how many but is is quite a few), some of whom were killed by US troops. It is not paranoid to wonder if maybe there is something the US does not want revealed.

Fox News -- oxymoron of the century

First of all, for someone who has been on the DU for only 3 weeks, you have some nerve to refer to us in general terms or any terms for that matter as such....

No one here hates our troops....we support our troops, we feel for our troops...its people who claim they support our troops and support the fucked up Neo-con Cabal and George Bush who sent them there under misguided false pretenses (try LIES) and who put them in harms way that make us WANT TO PUKE!

Bad Apples? I think the only BAD APPLES are Bush and the Military Brass that have been putting out the orders. Our TROOPS are put in a no win situation right now and quite frankly, if I were there and I knew that at any moment that a car or even a woman coming towards me with groceries could be a suicide bomber, I might be shooting around like a crazed cowgirl too! But your forgetting one little factoid here - there are more than just our "troops" in Iraq....there are also paid contractors (try mercenaries) and there are secret units that are killing units in Iraq sent there purposely to kill, kill, kill anyone they think is an insurgent and there are things your little mind and most Americans could never even imagine going on, and no, that ain't paranoia, that is fact.

:grr:

May i suggest you kept an airsick bag handy, then, because this incident stinks to high heaven.
You don't have to "hate our troops" to see that.

The US has purposely targeted journalists, and you can see this on video tape as it happens!

Have you forgotten the Abrams tank firing on the Palestine Hotel during the capture of Baghdad, or do you suffer from the same short term memory as many of our compatriots?

How about that cameraman that was killed last summer, and the firing on a hotel brimming with journalists? Of course all of our troops are not bad, but screw that damn fool logic that says they are all good too!

I'm not sure what 'cameraman' you're referring to, but have you ever seen a picture of someone at a distance with an RPG launcher on his shoulder, then compare that to a cameraman with his camera on his shoulder.

It's a war zone. Bad shit happens. People die and things get broken.

Stop being a shill for US war crimes! Here is some of the evidence:

Tuesday, 13 November, 2001, 13:48 GMT
Al-Jazeera Kabul offices hit in US raid


The channel says everybody knew where the office was,
including the Americans

The Qatar-based satellite channel, which gained global fame for its exclusive access to Osama Bin Laden and the Taleban, announced that none of its staff had been wounded.

But al-Jazeera's managing director Mohammed Jasim al-Ali, told BBC News Online that the channel's 12 employees in Kabul were out of contact.

Mr Jasim would not speculate as to whether the offices were deliberately targeted, but said the location of the bureau was widely known by everyone, including the Americans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1653887.stm

US Bombs Al-Jazeera
Baghdad Office - Kills Cameraman
4-8-3

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Al-Jazeera television said on Tuesday its cameraman Tarek Ayoub was killed during a U.S. air raid on Baghdad which also set the Arab network's office ablaze.

The Qatar-based satellite network said Ayoub, a Jordanian national, died in hospital after he was wounded in a missile strike on Jazeera's office near the Information Ministry.

Another member of Jazeera's Baghdad crew, Zohair al-Iraqi, was slightly wounded. Reuters correspondent Samia Nakhoul had earlier said U.S. planes were bombing targets near the ministry.

"We regret to inform you that our cameraman and correspondent Tarek Ayoub was killed this morning during the U.S. missile strike on our Baghdad office," Jazeera said in a statement read out during its news bulletin.

http://www.rense.com/general36/camm.htm

Journalists’ organizations demand inquiry

US bombs Al-Jazeera center in Baghdad

By Henry Michaels
9 April 2003

Journalists’ organizations have demanded investigations into two incidents in which US military forces killed three journalists in Baghdad on April 8, including Al-Jazeera correspondent Tariq Ayoub, and seriously wounded several others. The attacks came amid broadcasts showing some of the mounting slaughter being conducted by US troops throughout the Iraqi capital.

Ayoub, a 34-year-old Palestinian Jordanian, was killed in a direct missile strike on Al-Jazeera’s Baghdad offices. Surviving Al-Jazeera staff sought shelter in the nearby offices of rival satellite station Abu Dhabi TV, which then also came under US attack.

At one point, Abu Dhabi TV correspondent Shaker Hamed issued an emergency on-air call for help, saying “Twenty-five journalists and technicians belonging to Abu Dhabi television and Qatari satellite television channel Al-Jazeera are surrounded in the offices of Abu Dhabi TV in Baghdad.”

Hamed called on the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Organization of Journalists, Reporters Sans Frontieres and the Arab Journalists Union “to intervene quickly to pull us out of this zone where missiles and shells are striking in an unbelievable way.”

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/jaz-a09.shtml

"we hate troops" when we point out the bad things that happen.

why don't you? I seem to be running into quite a few posts of yours, and believe me, I'm not trying to. The ones I've seen have all defended this administration, even though anyone who knows anything about them knows they cannot be trusted.

Even journalists think they're murdering journalists. Is it just a coincidence - are we THAT inept? I think not. The problem would be proving it, of course. If it could be proven, obviously it wouldn't be done. However, with this administration's track record, It's not a great leap of the imagination to think maybe, just maybe, it's not accidental at all. I put NOTHING past them.

...who didn't ask to be sent there.

Too many here in my opinion lash out at anything or anyone that does not conform to their belief of reality.

Well, we can live in our little world if we wish......throwing nothing but negatives on the table and believing every kooky conspiracy theory out there that conforms to our idea of reality.

And the herd just keeps getting thinner and thinner. We're losing and it's our own fault for hating anything that resemebles good news coming out of this country.

We hung and incarcerated German troops that used the same excuse for their war crimes that some American troops, and their apologists back in America, are now making.

...that the troops that fired on this speeding car were just carrying out order for murder from above?

but the evidence in this particular case suggests something more sinister since it involves the Italian intelligence service, and the Italians had a plane waiting for the arrival of Giuliana Sgrena.

Of course, I don't watch Faux, but I do know that CNN has been adhering to the White House's propaganda line.

....any car driven by an Iraqi is getting fired upon by US troops?

I don't watch either Faux or CNN. What is CNN reporting?

to type F-A-U-X instead of FOX?

was in transit from the airport. It is hard to believe that the military has such sloppy communication between the troops in this communication age. Is it a problem of poor leadership in the ranks? Too many goofups.

....to throw on the table as explanations than murder.

...I'm not looking for the easy way out. Just the truth before making outlandish accusations against our troops.

I did not, in fact I implied the opposite.

We know the truth already, more or less. US soldiers shot at non-combatants, and killed one.

It is simply wrong to fire at people simply because one does not know they are non-combatants.

....and killed one. That's a first. I don't recall that ever happening before in a war.

But now that you've pointed it out, yes, I would have to agree that it's wrong.

We need to re-think this war thingy.

Wars are full of atrocities, a very good reason to oppose the vast majority of them, but the fact that this is not isolated does not make it any more justifiable.

The fact that this event has company means nothing on a moral level.

I do not see what you are trying to argue. Do you think that this attack, because it was in a war zone, was okay?

...know the facts before labeling the troops involved as murderers.

If they're not really murderers, does anyone here think that claiming so makes their lives any easier.

For Christ's sake, we have the relatives of DU members over there right now trying to survive and do the best they can with a war they didn't ask for.

Can't we wait until we know the facts before we paint them with a murder brush?

NT!

it seems Berlu was in communication with DC at the very moment.
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Berlu wanted her out of the picture as well since her newspaper is NOT one of his.
I don't blame the troops, they could have been kept in ignorance of the transit and the U$ Admin. LIHOP.

if it does, you may want to check it out. The italian journalist's companion said the shooting was not accidental. If it doesn't work, you may want to check out the thread on LBN.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1671944,00.html

<snip>
Rome - The companion of freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena on Saturday levelled serious accusations at US troops who fired at her convoy as it was nearing Baghdad airport, saying the shooting had been deliberate.

"The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home.

"They were 700m from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints."
<snip>

<snip>
"Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive," he added.
<snip>

I hate to spell it out for you, but did you ever consider that the soldiers who are doing these things may be the ones who signed up AFTER 9/11 to "go kill some sand niggers"?

Yes. I've heard that. And these are people who will judge skin color as an indicator of nationality. It could very well be that the men who fired on this journalist's car joined the military specifically to kill people who have darker skin.

(We have police like that right here in the US, so don't try to claim that that couldn't possibly be the case. Such men would be perfect recruits for such actions.)

Supporting the troops is bringing them home to there families.

The real support for the troops is to call for their immediate withdrawal.

I support the troops and think Bush should be tried for his war crimes along with the rest of his corrupt administration.

Take a look around & read the gazillion signs out there that say, "WE SUPPORT THE TROOPS!" Who exactly are these words aimed at? To say such a thing implies only one conclusion...that there are "others" lurking around who do not support any troops! You either back this War or you don't & those aren't our rules!

Was she never really shot, and the story of her being shot is merely a "kooky conspiracy theory?"

Or perhaps she shot herself, just to smear the US and the troops who didn't ask to be sent there?

What good news? Last time I heard, the insurgents outnumbered us and the closer we get to "democracy," the faster troops and Iraqis die.

And I will agree with you and give you some credit for sticking to your guns as somebody with a minority opinion on here. I don't agree with most of what you say and suspect you may be a freeper, but know that I was accused of the same thing in another post for not agreeing with most others, which is rare.

For the time being, I am thinking perhaps you are not so skeptical of the US government because you haven't really been following things it's been doing as closely as the rest of us.

If you have been following the news here at DU, in particular the LBN (Latest Breaking News) you will see thread after thread about journalists who have been killed under mysterious circumstances.

The most egregious would be the Palestinian journalist who was standing outside Abu Ghraib prison with a cam corder, filming. Very soon, a US tank came rolling out of the prison. US troops had him in their sights. They shot and killed him.

This is not clandestine stuff. This is just - aim, shoot and kill. Don't ask me for links. Just go look the stuff up in LBN.

(Emphasis added.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1021480,00.html

US troops 'crazy' in killing of cameraman

Jamie Wilson in Baghdad
Tuesday August 19, 2003
The Guardian

Journalists who were with a Reuters news cameraman shot dead by US troops while filming outside a Baghdad prison yesterday accused the soldiers of behaving in a "crazy" and negligent fashion.

They claimed the Americans had spotted the Reuters crew outside the jail half an hour before Mazen Dana was killed and must have realised he was not a guerrilla carrying a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.

<SNIP>

The US army, which has launched an investigation, claimed its soldiers thought his camera was a weapon.

But colleagues who were with the award-winning cameraman when he was killed told a different story.

Nael al-Shyoukhi, a Reuters soundman, said the soldiers "saw us and they knew about our identities and our mission.

<SNIP>

Stephan Breitner, of France 2 television, added: "We were all there for at least half an hour. They knew we were journalists. After they shot Mazen, they aimed their guns at us. I don't think it was an accident. They are very tense. They are crazy."

Conspiracy theory MY FUCKING ASS.

That's one that sort of sticks out...

If we had a true independent press, you would have been seeing it night after night the way these images have been shown in Europe. Just last month, a GI was exhonerated following an investigation of the shooting of an unarmed insurgent prisoner of war. In the video footage, the US soldier is clearly seen murdering a man who is not moving, not armed, and clinging to life. To me it was an intentional homocide without justification or excuse, thereby murder. And there have been many similar incidents. At the beginning of the Iraq war, I remember seeing European footage of a group of US soldiers shooting at a uniformed Iraqi soldier (i.e. not an insurgent) crawling away, unarmed. The US soldiers were engaged in a type of contest to see who could nail the guy first. When they finally shot the crawling man, high fives and cheers rose up. Killing uniformed soldiers hors combat is clearly against the Geneva Convention.

Is putting a tank round into the window of the Baghdad Hotel and killing a pair of journalists "murder?"

Or criminal ineptitude?

March 18, 2003: Kate Adie, a highly reputable, veteran war correspondent, says that the Pentagon plans to fire on any satellite uplink points in Iraq, including those being used by independent journalists. Journalists and film crews could be killed or gravely injured if the military acts on the Pentagon plan. A senior Pentagon official confirmed this with "Who cares? . . . They've been warned."

GuluFuture.com, a number of Independent Media Centers, and an interview with Adie on Democracy Now! relayed this information, and a summary and clip of the Democracy Now! show are available at: webactive.com/pacifica/demnow....

...please note that Dover didn't say "our troops", he said "the US government". Remember that Rumsferatu has approved the use of apartheid thugs and chilean death squads as "independent contractors" in Iraq. The vehicle they were hit from was a "US armored vehicle", but we don't know for sure who was in the vehicle. Did it flee the scene? No, we don't really know any of this. Heck, the Pentagon "lost" the car that they were in, and those that fired on them and the vehicle they were in? Nothing so far.

It is painfully obvious to the rest of the world the murdering ways of the Americans in Iraq.

accidentally overheard (on microphone that was left on) commenting to a fellow GOPer, spewing some four letter words directed at one of the "unfriendly" reporters spotted in the crowd? I believe this attitude is pervasive in this administration and comes directly from Bush/Cheney.

Their hostility to the press and desire to control information is very apparent...which is why they have had to plant so many of their own in the press corp and in the creation of their own self-serving blogs. Control and intimidation is the name of their game.

Calling the war like you see it. And more cities are to to be bombed soon. Stop the madness. Stop the hate. Believe in one another and the goodness that has been and will be again.

Peace to everyone. Italy, we too mourn.

Why was she taken to a US hospital instead of an Iraqi morgue? It would've been simple enough for the US "hit squad" to walk up to her after wards and carry out the Coup de Grace. Or do you think the "death squad" had second thoughts once they approached the vehicle?

Occams razor suggests two simpler explanations: someone got trigger happy and lit up the vehicle or the vehicle approached the checkpoint at a high rate of speed and did not respond to signals to stop and got lit up.

If you read through this entire thread (a daunting prospect, I admit) you will find there is incontrovertible evidence that the car was not speeding, there was no checkpoint, and nobody signalled the car to stop before it was shot full of 300-400 bullets.

And after that incident, with Italian troops standing a few hundred yards away, and probably numerous other onlookers watching, you think that one of the killers is then going to finish off the wounded people.

She wasn't even taken to a U.S. hospital until after all the cell phones in the car were confiscated.

But you sure do have all the talking points down pat. Bravo!

"If you read through this entire thread (a daunting prospect, I admit) you will find there is incontrovertible evidence that the car was not speeding, there was no checkpoint, and nobody signalled the car to stop before it was shot full of 300-400 bullets."

Sgrena's own words are not "inconvertible" evidence. Looking at pictures of the vehicle, it doesn't look like 300 to 400 bullets were fired into the vehicle. More like 10 to 20, if that many. All into the engine block.

Talking points?! You must mean common sense.

If I were a diabolical neocon and wanted to get rid of Sgrena, I would do one of the following: dress up some troops like an insurgent group and cut her head off and send it in to Al Jazeera, or
have a car bomb go off next to her vehicle, or just have her plain disappear. I would not have her vehicle shot up and her not even killed by some US troops at a checkpoint. That strikes me as rather incompetent, and I think this administration and the CIA are fully capable of being diabolically competent.

And if those "10 or 20" bullets all went into the engine block, then how did Nicola Calipari get shot in the back of the head?

Yes, you're right. The military always gets its man. Why, just look at Osama bin Laden.

Uhhhhh....well, maybe not such a good example.

Okay, let's look at Mullah Omar, last seen seen riding a motorcycle outta town?

Uhhhh...gosh, he's still on the loose, too.

In fact, General John Pershing never got Pancho Villa, either.

Funny how your dress up troops theory sounds so much like what has been said about the Berg video. And I never said anything about the CIA. The point was to make it look like just another tragic checkpoint accident, and if all the people in the car had died, that would still be the story.

misleading never mind. Nothing to see here, move along.

Car has disappeared, which makes it look bad for the US.

Anyway, soldiers were right there. If they managed to kill the body guard, they should've been able to kill Sgrena...if that had been their intent. Unlike Pancho, Osama, and Omar, she was in their hands.

Around these parts, we don't just take anyone's word for these things--so where is your PROOF?

LINK TO THIS VIDEO--we all want to see it.

On edit: So how do you explain this? When did the AP take this video?

"When The Associated Press in Baghdad asked the U.S. military to see the vehicle on Saturday, the military said it didn't know where it was."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050306/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage_reconstruction

That is the car she was kidnapped out of, not the car that was shot to hell. Edited to add that the actual car is now on its way to Italy for forensic examination.

Nice try, though. So which rightwing blog did you get that information from, anyway?

Unfortunately, Bush and the company don't give a shit who they kill and how many they kill.

...by a desire to MURDER this woman?

Do you really believe that?

I don't.

If a fascist like Berlusconi is pissed about this, you can bet that this was no accident!

...I don't believe Rummy for a damned thing he says. Berlusconi is probably pissed because he now looks like an idiot for agreeing with our idiots.

I'm pissed because before an investigation is done, we're accusing our troops of murder.

If they wanted to murder the woman, why didn't they just put a bullet through her head as she sat in the car?

If you can't comprehend such a basic fact, no wonder you are having trouble understanding the depth of the anger the entire world feels towards America.

I hope this incident will force Berlusconi to pull all the troops out of Iraq. At least no more Italian blood will be shed by American bullets!

You have yet to reply to my posting of several stories about the US military targeting the media in Iraq and Afghanistan. All you have been doing is stick to the Pentagon line, ignoring even the news that is coming out of Italy.

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....they're out to murder the woman but don't finish her off as she sits in a disabled car.

IG's response: The whole war is murder.

The whole war stinks. I'll just wait until it's proven that our military targeted this woman before calling them murderers.

That's not left, nor right, it's the decent thing to do to those who are forced to defend their lives on a daily basis in a war they didn't ask for.

in all probability the shooters thought they occupants of the car were all dead or dying. They didn't count on the Italians that were awaiting for the car at the airport.

then it would really look like an assasination rather than accidental manslaughter.

Edited to add accidental manslaughter.

the Americans? :crazy:


....one of the countries that does whatever we tell them?


....the Iraqis? are you going to believe them?

I was on a long thread last night on DU and cannot remember the title at this time. But a member was doing a lot of posting just as you have been doing, and the language was so similar, that it seems uncanny. But that poster had a different name.

NT!

the 300-400 rounds into the car had been given limted information? Perhaps they were told the car was carrying 'terrorists' and that it should be stopped by any means?

Let's demand to know who gave them the orders!

have you read anything she has written? I would guess you haven't or you would not even be asking this question. She has documented case after case of US atrocities in Iraq and especially the destruction and killing of thousands in Fallujah. Let's just say the US Military was not real happy to see her leave the country to tell her tales of US war crimes.

You sound like you side with the US version of events. So be it.

half-assed instructions from half-assed officers to the poor grunts who don't know wtf to believe or wtf fuck is going on most of the time? Hard to make sense out of a senseless situation.

....are doing trying to survive day to day in a tough situation that they didn't ask for.

Some may wish to believe they're murderers. I don't.

that is life.

men, women and children over there, yet?

no, of course not, war is hell right?

:puke:

peace

I mean, do you even think about the questions you ask?

After all, if that patrol was nothing but a death squad, then what's to worry about? Do you job boys, murder those people, how will anyone know? It was a shoot out in the streets.

If anyone complains, just murder them too, right. You're a death squad.

apparently this "hit" looked obvious to you and a bunch of others, so why not finish her off? Sloppy and stupid if it was a real hit, which makes me think it wasn't, just a big cock-up.

and of course there is no proof that we could produce that would show absolutely that the US was involved in the original kidnapping.

Nevertheless, citizens need to be aware and not blind to history. We know that the CIA and other unnamed covert ops groups have reasons to inflame and assist (if not stage) "insurgent incidents" in order to justify the continued occupation. We also know that they have done so many many many times in the past. We also know that many many many of these incidents were tolerated by THESE VERY SAME LEADERS (Negroponte and Abrams) notoriously and shown in open court.

Now they are back in charge. Do you really expect anyone anywhere to believe that they are not repeating the horrendous sadistic "blunders" that they got away with so painlessly 20 years ago? When they now have a motive to do the same?

Fool me once...

The killing itself seems to me to have been a stupid, tragic accident, more indicative of the general fuckup-and-ignore-the-fuckups strategy the US is following in Iraq.

After all, what is the definition of a "military checkpoint" in this war? There are no towers, no blockades, nothing to show it is a place where the US soldiers hang out. That would invite attack.

No, a military checkpoint is anywhere a soldier is standing, waving his arms, and then shooting at you. That's why so many Iraqis make the mistake of trying to speed through. They think they are being attacked out of nowhere in the middle of the night by armed men and they run. Our guys have orders to shoot when they do that. No doubt the driver in this incident was doing the same thing.

Is this the kind of action we want our kids to be involved in? Is this the face of the US we want to show to God at the end of history (if such it is)

What think tank did you drop out of?

considering the information we have at this point, that it is a possibility, in light of all the other "unfrienfly" journalists who have been targeted. They were shot without warning from an armoured vehicle, and it wasn't a checkpoint and they weren't speeding. Doesn't sound like the soldiers (in the armoured vehicle) had any reason to panic. So if they didn't know who they were shooting at, that means they pretty much shoot at anything that moves, just for the hell of it. This is my assessment based on the information we have at this point.

It wouldn't necessarily have been ordinary soldiers who did it. Let us not forget that Doanld Rumsfeld has created an "SS" force to do dirty work for him. And that the "Salvador option" is "being discussed", meaning death squads. It has been done before. In Italy, in the 70s, the CIA in cooperation with Italian right-wing groups, killed innocent people and staged terrorist events and blamed it on the Communists. They killed left-wing journlists. This is not tin-foil stuff but cold, hard facts.

The occupation has been out of control since the beginning. We have seen plenty of video showing the hoo haw boys celebrating the kill. Leadership is the key.

and not the soldiers.

So far, the track record of this criminal misadministration has proven these thoughts 100% correct.

100%.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1671944,00.html

><snip>
Rome - The companion of freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena on Saturday levelled serious accusations at US troops who fired at her convoy as it was nearing Baghdad airport, saying the shooting had been deliberate.

"The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home.

"They were 700m from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints."
<snip>

<snip>
"Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive," he added.
<snip>

:eyes:

I'd like to know how it's possible to supposedly shoot at an engine block and kill or wound every single passenger in the car while doing so!

:grr:

Except that anything that comes from lying shits like Bush and Rumsfeld -- especially anything embarassing or incriminiating -- is probably not true.

As in "How can you tell George Bush is lying . . . ? His lips are moving."

And we may never know, or never know with confidence. But if they're saying that a car full of security professionals failed to respond to multiple warnings and attempted to blow past a heavily armed checkpoint, I say, "how stupid do you think we are?"

As I (and MANY others) posted upthread, this has happened before.

Do we know for sure? No. Is it possible? You'd have to be blind to think otherwise.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.iraq/index.html

She then thought of something her captors had told her:
"The Americans don't want you to go back."

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=329923

'The Americans don't want you to return alive to Italy.'"


There is a big difference in the wording there, don't you think?

intentionally been watered down in the CNN report.

instead they are watering it down. The state of journalism in this country gets worse every day.

Their orders from above were to murder this woman, after having released her (remember, we kidnapped her as well), so why didn't they put a bullet through her head?

Why didn't they kill the other guy too? Dead men can't talk.

and didn't manage to do it.

Unless it was a tragic accident.

right?

They hauled her out of the car and sent her to a hospital.

If their orders were to murder her, why didn't they finish the job when they found her wounded in the car?

I don't know whether it was an accident or an attempted murder, but if it were the latter, for the sake of speculation, it would probably be imperative to make it plausably look like an accident and at the same time let it be sufficiently transparent to serve as a warning. A bullet through the head at close range would be difficult to explain.

....since when would murderers need to explain anything.

Afterall, we've heard from some here that this event was akin to some sort of goon squad tracking down this woman to execute her.

If that's the case, they surely failed miserably.

It all just doesn't add up. I don't know what the real story is, but I'm inclined to give our troops the benefit of the doubt before writing them off as murderers.

about the benefit of the doubt, even under these unusual circumstances. But your comment, "since when would murderers need to explain anything", well, if they were members of the US military they certainly would have a lot of 'splainin to do if she was found shot through the head at close range? And I've speculated (just speculating) about the possibility that the troops in question were simply (deliberatly) not told that an Italian vehicle would pass them. That still doesn't explain the seemingly unprovoked attack from an armoured vehicle which was not at a checkpoint.

I am in no way suggesting that the troops acted alone, shooting at an Italian journalist that they had been told to let pass. THAT is ridiculous. I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Either it's a miscommunication (screw-up), or they were deliberately not told that the Italians were coming, or they were some kind of "assassination patrol" (I know, sounds corny but Rumsfeld has just initiated such a force; it's called P2OG. I agree that they failed miserably if that was indeed what it was).

I would go with the screw-up explanation as default option, but there just doesn't seem to have been any reason at all to open fire, if we are to believe the journalist's account. It should certainly be interesting to hear the soldiers' account of what happened.

Has anyone posted an account from the soldiers involved.

Perhaps so, but I haven't seen it, other than someone getting all outraged because one of the soldiers said something 'callous'.

Please post a link if you can find one.

Frederik = Voice of Reason

last time I checked the Pentagon wouldn't say which troops were involved, what unit they belong to etc. So I don't think such an account is available yet.

....available.

After all, they managed to come up with a soldier trying to support their contention that those explosives were moved out of that Iraqi bunker BEFORE our troops arrived, even though all evidence pointed elsewhere.

They're not supposed to play politics with our soldiers, but they sure did in that case.

I say they should produce those involved. Let's hear their side of the story and look into their eyes as they tell it.

We deserve that much.

Not all murder attempts succeed. Doesn't mean they didn't intend to.

Perhaps there were too many witnesses in the are a to shoot her point blank. After it was right next to the airport.

Why are you so quick to tow the party line.

Can you say Cognitive Dissonance?

Rather obvious that they didn't 'finish the job' when they found her wounded in the car.

Sure, they are going to put a bullet in the head of a wounded woman with numerous witnesses on the scene.

Nobody is fooled here, "Bluey."

WTF do they care about witnesses? Kill them too!

Can't have it both ways, can you?

Remember?

Can't have it both ways, Bluey.

I don't know, I wasn't there and haven't heard both sides of the story.

You apparently have gathered enough information to finalize your decision about the matter.

And the official Pentagon version--how many more sides do you think there are? Or do you think the soldiers are going to say something different than the Pentagon?

...or perhaps you'd rather have the word of a Pentagon spokesman in Washington. I wouldn't. Until we hear what the soldiers have to say, then we don't have the whole story.

If the Pentagon refuses to let them speak about the incident, then they're hiding something.

and they just happen to confirm the Pentagon's version, why then they must not be hiding anything at all.

Gosh, I wish I could live in fantasyland, too--sounds like such a simple and happy place.

"If the Pentagon refuses to let them speak about the incident, then they're hiding something"

...being intentionally obtuse is a rather ineffective way of arguing your already untenable position.

jesusfuckingchrist! Like we're supposed to explain why they didn't kill her earlier? Why did they unload on this car when it was expected and the Italian soldiers were WAITING for her at the airport?

If it was a mistake, it would be rather coincidental. The few bad apples has become a god damned pestilence-filled orchard.

I hadn't thought of that one.

You're right, in addition to being murderers, our troops are incompetent.

shoot and kill civilians? They weren't underfire from this car. The woman says they were not speeding. This has happened time and time again where our soldier shoot first and then find out oops, there was a family of 6 including babies that they shot to death.

I didn't say they kidnapped her or beheaded people. Funny how you are now making blanket statements about all DUers.

but from a patrol. The plot thickens as each Administration lie falls like dominoes.

Explain that part of the 'plot'.

Afterall, they send out a patrol to hunt her down and kill her after the CIA released her from captivity.

Quite a plot all right.

and the patrol left before other troops arrived.

One can only speculate, but one thing is certain by now: there was no roadblock and no speeding car, therefore the part of the Pentagon's story about warning shots and flashing lights is not supported by the facts.

We don't have all the facts of this sorry incident and probably won't ever have them. It has been pretty well established that the car was fired on by US troops whether by incompetance, accident or what have you. The only conclusion that one can make, is that due to the fact many people have been unjustly killed, is that it is a matter of incompetance, deliberate or troops completely out of control. Who is responsible?

Bushco and his criminal cabal who are profiting from this war. That's who's ultimately responsible.

Oh, I forgot, the buck doesn't stop there.

....CIA had kidnapped the woman.

A sign of incompetence for soldiers to continually shoot and kill civilians?

Well, let's see.

I'm a soldier in Baghdad and every day, sometimes several times a day, a civilian drives a car into a group of US soldiers, or Iraqi soldiers, or civilians and blows up the car.

SOP is that when a car approaches and fails to yield to assorted signals to stop, it is best to assume that the driver has something nasty in mind, like turning my body into ground meat.

So I follow SOP, the car continues to approach, and I'm finally faced with disabling the car and possibly killing or injuring the occupants, or losing my life.

No, I don't think they're incompetent. I think they're doing the best they can in a very bad situation that is not of their making.

got internet access and all... how much time do you get online a day?

is it true that rummy BANNED picture cell phones?

if not can you post images at my image blog? i'm sure MANY would love to see whats goin on over there from the boots on the ground.

:hi:

peace

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"SOP is that when a car approaches and fails to yield to assorted signals to stop, it is best to assume that the driver has something nasty in mind, like turning my body into ground meat."

1) The car was NOT approaching at high speed.
2) The car ALREADY passed ALL the checkpoints.
3) The car was continuing on to WAITING ITALIAN TROOPS.

These points are not in doubt. These points have already been proven.

Just how much shit do you intend to post here that has already been disproven?

One-on-one, yes -- I've seen them in action at Baghdad checkpoints and that was my perception (course I'm not military so I don't really know).

But they kill waaaaay to many civilians, and those civilians all seem to suicidally charge checkpoints with their cars full of children.

It's leadership. And their leadership sucks from the top on down. And at the top, the leadership is CAPABLE OF ANYTHING. There is nothing these fucks won't do. And that includes putting some of their special guys in an armored vehicle on the way to the airport and taking out a single auto. Or trying to.

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I was expecting to hear from posters that you "don't belong" even earlier. Now it's starting. I'm actually surprised you have made it to 300+ posts.

I don't necessarily agree with everything that you have to say, but what does that have to do with your right to express a legitimate opinion? For Gods, sakes simply saying that there should be a non-biased INVESTIGATION before jumping to conclusions is NOT exactly a wing-nut position. Why are so many people here so damn intolerant of different, albeit still LIBERAL opinions?

No two posters will ever agree on everything, that's for sure.

I'm not happy about this war, who could be except for those in Washington how are profiting from it personally.

You hit the nail on the head though, I don't see how automatically jumping to the conclusion that our boys are guilty of murder helps anyone, especially those who are struggling to survive in that God-foresaken country on a day to day basis.

Do you know that if there had not been an outcry from foreign press and Sy Hersch (a journalist) there would have been no investigation into Abu Graib? Why do you trust this administration, this Pentagon, this cabal running things in Iraq to 1) conduct a "non-biased" INVESTIGATION (whatever the hell that is), 2) admit to mistakes or corruption and 3) change their ways? Tell me again how many officers or civilians in charge were courtmartialed and forced to resign after Abu Graib came to light?

How do you explain the American soldier who shot and killed a journalist who was holding a camera on his shoulder and had a press badge on his chest, when the soldier was looking at the journalist through his sniper scope? The "official investigation" said it was an accident. How can a soldier looking through a scope at the guy mistake him for a terrorist? Yes, war is hell, the fog of war, blah blah blah. I believe there is an unprecedented number of journalists being killed in Iraq. Strange how that could be when 99% of them are embedded and protected by the Marines. Dan Rather was on his own in Vietnam, as were most journalists then. Why would the numbers go up in this new embedded scenario? Why are the journalists always "accidently" shot in areas of extreme controversy...i.e. Abu Graib prison and Fallujah?

....I recall seeing a piece on PBS many years ago about journalists who put their lives on the line in war zones.

One segment showed the profiles of two different guys. One was holding a camera, the other holding some sort of shoulder-fired weapon, RPG, don't recall the exact type, but the result was the same. From a distance it was difficult to tell one from the other.

Looking through a scope at the target does make it harder to explain, though you'll also find numerous instances of deer hunters with high powered, scoped rifles, killing other hunters ever year.

If it can happen under the quiet conditions of deer hunting, I can imagine it happening in the chaos of war.

There IS an outcry. Now lets have an unbiased investigation before jumping to any further conclusions. Whats unfair about that?

...that low posters (admittedly, I don't have a TON of posts but I have been on this board for years now) that always defend this administration often seem to use a pic of MLK Jr. to deflect analysis of their real views and purpose for being on this board? Kind of like a chronic drunk driver that puts a M.A.D.D. bumper sticker on their car in hopes that the cops won't pull them over when they are driving erratically.

I should probably mention that about half of my posts were flame war arguments with Frodo...those were the days, lol.

...first you say, "Stop hating the troops, we don't have all the facts!" But then as the "facts" start rolling in, you spin like a top... What's up with that?

If so, post it please.

If not, then we don't have that side of the story, do we?

...but there's a reason for that. The Pentagon can just keep changing its story to fit discovery of evidence. Earlier, the car was shot, then it was on fire. What's the story now? Why hasn't the Pentagon released any information about debriefing of those involved? Do they have any? Isn't it in our diplomatic interests to ferret out the truth if there's no US policy behind it. Bush doesn't seem to object to grinding up a few bad apples if it saves his money tree. Why don't we see any grinding?

I recall watching in horror one night right after we took control of Baghdad as a US convoy was approached by a car on the highway.

The soldiers inside the truck motioned and yelled at the driver to back off. He didn't. They then fired shots in front of the car and he still refused to back off.

They then sent a volley of bullets into the car and it crashed on the side of the road.

A terrorist? Nope, a family. Killed a bunch of 'em too.

But you know what, I saw an interview with surviving members and I saw an interview with the two soldiers.

I think we will hear from those who did the shooting and until the Pentagon says we won't, then I'll hold off on finding them guilty of attempted murder.