St. Petersburg 5-year-old cuffed after school outburst

Posted on Fri, Mar. 18, 2005

St. Petersburg 5-year-old cuffed after school outburst
Associated Press

ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. - A 5-year-old girl was arrested, cuffed and put in back of a police cruiser after an outburst at school where she threw books and boxes, kicked a teacher in the shins, smashed a candy dish, hit an assistant principal in the stomach and drew on the walls.

The students were counting jelly beans as part of a math exercise at Fairmount Park Elementary School when the little girl began acting silly. That's when her teacher took away her jelly beans, outraging the child.

Minutes later, the 40-pound girl was in the back of a police cruiser, under arrest for battery. Her hands were bound with plastic ties, her ankles in handcuffs.

"I don't want to go to jail," she said moments after her arrest Monday.
(snip/...)

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/breaking_news/11171266.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We've got dwindling numbers of police personel available nationwide, thanks to _Bush's domestic budget cuts. Is it wise that schools should increase incidences of dragging COPS to schools to manage problems with children which have ALWAYS been handled previously by the teachers?

discipline must be enforced & authority respected!

sounds like a little hellraiser. why i never wanted to be a teacher part MCXXVI.

Heavy meds + electro-shock = zombie-child > Bush voter of the future?

sorry, I'm really pissed right now. Florida, where votes don't count, spousal wishes don't count, and 5 yr olds get hands and feet cuffed. JEb bush for president 2008!

...check the news for just about every state and you'll see stories similar to this one. At least this story didn't involve the use of a taser.

Oh, by the way...Jeb's already declared himself a no-go for 2008. Kindadizzy Rice has publicly stated that she won't run, either. That probably means Georgie-porgie will declare himself President-for-Life following the next "terrorist" act.

I am just picking on Florida because that was where this article, Schiavo and Jeb are. I won't believe the bush dynasty will quit until I see it.

My son had a violent kid in his kindergarten class, was assigned a special ed aid to physically restrain him daily. She would sit behind him and hold him and guide his angry motions until he quit. He got sent to counseling, and a private school for a while (with local school funds), and finally got over it after a few yrs. But then, I'm from a librul community.

This was several years ago. Agreed they had broken into the school, but I asked them to do it out of class. Tiny little boys, very skinny.

sorry--this isn't the I support Michael Jackson board?

What is the world coming to when we don't protect our police officers from five year old children?

:eyes:

Believe me, a teacher or parent can't touch a child in Florida or they will be tasered for sure.

FYI: Some Florida school reports say that we are 50th in per capita spending on higher education, 47th in spending for school kids, and have the lowest graduation rate in the US....but there are lots of cop jobs for the dropouts so someone can go get those kindergarten criminals!

Makes sense to Jeb!

and the academy is a killer, but keep spouting ignroant drivel

That shows the type of people that are becomming cops now. It seems fear guides most of their actions. They won't even leave the station without bulletproof clothing, big cars, clubs, mace, close backup, and a bunch of guns.

not wear bullet resistant vests and be killed by our lovely 5% who IS the criminal element

I'll remember when YOU need a cop.

Look I am all for community policing, aka patroling on foot, but I am also all for the cops to HAVE Mace, they don't their only option becomes a gun

Are you ok with cops macing, clubbing, and tasering them too?

an outburst at school where she threw books and boxes, kicked a teacher in the shins, smashed a candy dish, hit an assistant principal in the stomach and drew on the walls.

Sounds similar to my own early miseducation, though I certainly never stooped so low as to draw on the walls </sarcasm> If she does indeed have a disability, she used to be protected under IDEA, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, right up until this year, when your friendly neighborhood repukes gutted it and slapped "discipline" provisions onto it.

I certainly hope that this is not what they had in mind by "discipline", but... :scared:

http://www.hamilton.pinellas.k12.fl.us/about.html

I heard about a parent who wanted her daughter put in Hamilton Disston High School (a separate school), even though the daughter was not SED, because of the behavior improvement the mother noted in other children who went there (the daughter was not allowed in, of course).

This child's behavior sounds truly bizarre, and the parent doesn't seem to realize how unusual it is, judging from the article. It would tend to make me wonder what goes on at home.

a 5-year-old WHITE girl being handled in this manner. Does ANYONE have information?

alternative educational settings, that is, not jail!

southern states have some serious problems

now did the cops go over the edge by cuffing the kid and cuffing her feet, mebbe, (most likely) but the school went over the edge when they called 9.11

Southern states are terrible..being from one, myself. As a matter of fact - in South Carolina, where the governor would rather put tax money into private "school voucher", the special education departments are left to raise their own money through bakesales.

I kid you not. See below:

what is the teacher supposed to do? You can't physically touch the kids today, correct?

from a teacher in a southern school.

Son of retired teacher, kansas.

I teach special ed in MO. We are allowed to restrain kids who are threatening or injuring others. We are also allowed to restrain kids who hit us.

He's sensitive to food color and becomes really agressive and hyperactive when he gets it. Maybe that's why the kid flipped out?

I'm sorry but that's fucking funny. "I don't want to go to jail."


Sounds like a lil' bitch though

"... counting jelly beans as part of a math exercise ... when the little girl began acting silly. ... teacher took away her jelly beans ...."

Just this on its face is odd. The teacher objected to "silly" behavior. So the teacher punishes her. Aren't many 5-year olds silly? Does acting "silly" rise to an peer-accepted standard of punishment? To me, silliness denotes a carefree happiness, similar to the King's 'fool' or jester. Many well-known comedians are 'silly'.

Sometimes it seems the adults want immature children to act like perfectly mature and serious adults, while the adults charged with their care act like bullies.

All the other kids in the class now know what happens to them if they act "silly."


Sure, after the removal of the jelly beans, the child lost her temper. That behavior needs correcting, it is wrong for people to hit people. I've recently been hit in the stomach by a 7-year old boy who weighed more than 40 lbs. Hardly felt it.

This was a possibly unfair punishment that escalated to violence, that escalated to physical domination by the adults. The instigating bully won.

who do as they are told to do, but that's a separate issue.

Added: And no, you don't "take candy from a baby." She should have found some other way to deal with whatever it was.

..have you spent in a classroom teaching?

how many days, but about 18 months total. Not too long - was a student for much longer. :-) Why you ask?

in the corner, etc was for in my kindergarten.

There were several outbursts of similar type when I was in Kindergarten and the cops were never called.

Yes, she had a tantrum. Oh, my. The world is going to end. Hint: Kids do this.

Don't they have better things to do?

before we call the teacher a bully.

She could have been throwing the jelly beans, she could have been spitting them at other kids, or flicking them. There are a lot of inappropriate ways she could have been acting silly.

I think the Florida cops are falling down on the job.

She is barely out of diapers. In fact, some of the Special Ed kids are still IN diapers at 5 years old. Come on already.

I agree. What is WRONG with FLORIDA?

but I don't know.

BTW, I wouldn't consider a five-year-old in diapers as more cause for concern than a five-year-old who was uncontrollably violent.

Don't they have a corner she can stand in when she gets "silly"?

and the most important thing you all missed was:

WHY THE F&%K do the parents let a child get this out of control??
If she is disabled in some way she needs help, if it is just a brat moment, then it has happened before and the parents ignored it.

Her parents skills at taking care of her need to be looked at.

or sometimes the parents are also emotionally disturbed.

It makes it much harder for the child to get help.

You're assuming that this is a patterned behavior, when it could just as easily be a one-off. We don't know.

Kids' sense of what is fair and right is very sharp and black and white. It could have felt like such an outrage - and we don't know if this teacher and this child have a negative history, either - that the little girl just could not take it anymore.

My first grade teacher took an instant dislike to me, and she did eventually drive me to a huge tantrum, but it was one of the few I ever had. And no, my parents did not allow tantrums. But even the most even-tempered child (and really, I was) can be driven to distraction. My tantrums were of the crying nature; I recall sobbing for hours because she insisted I could write with my eyes closed, and I knew I could not. My mother was called eventually because the stress of being in a classroom where I was obviously disliked had finally gotten to me. (At least, that was my perception.)

You should have seen me the day after election. I haven't read the article yet, but it certainly sounds like the little kid has some chutzpa!

I mean, Christ on a stick, I'd be more concerned if my kids never had a meltdown! My 2nd grader had a major meltdown (sobbing hysterically) a few weeks ago when her teacher moved to another grade/class! It can be really hard to judge how individual kids react to any given situation and despite popular thinking, they are not little adults. The world has gone crazy.

By the time a child is ready for school, you might expect some children might sob under some circumstances, but you wouldn't expect uncontrollable violence in a kindergartner.

Who was just plain mean. My parents were convvinced it is what changed me from a very outgoing kid to one who was (and still am to this day) pretty introverted. We weren't there so who knows what really happened. It does seem really excessive to handcuff a 5 year old.

Did you read the part where "she threw books and boxes, kicked a teacher in the shins, smashed a candy dish, hit an assistant principal in the stomach". I'm not saying handcuffing the kid was the right thing to do but I'm wondering how many hours you have spent in a classroom teaching recently?

but I have 2 boys 5 and 7.

They stand in the corner when things get a bit out of hand.
IF the kid was put in a timeout when she started, chances are that all the other stuff wouldn't have happened.
Oh, and your sarcasm is not appreciated.

dropping the ball but recommending she stand in a corner is kinda silly. A kid who throws this kind of massive temper tantrum is NOT going to stand in a corner when she gets into trouble.

that turned up dead. Thats why they had to take her down.

That little bitch-in-training will think twice before doing something so patently stupid again. This isn't the same as suspending a kid for pointing a breaded chicken finger at a teacher, y'know.

some sense in this thread.

Teach your kids young, harshly if it's required, so they know the right thing to do when you aren't there to help them when they're older.

Your job as a parent and teacher is NOT to coddle the child. Your job is to teach them the tools they need to survive.

Is unhappiness a tool of survival? Restated: is sillyness a tool of non-survival?

(If you have trouble understanding the questions, see my post #25)

Let me try and summarize with examples.

Teacher gives kids jelly beans to count with, one child has a fit because he or she does not have enough green ones, the kid cries, cops are called, etc. The teacher is the culprit here, in my opinion. There's a lot of wiggle room in this situation to resolve the situation in a constructive way.

Situation 2: Teacher gives kids jelly beans to count with, one child throws a fit and begins throwing everything within reach at kids next to him or her. The child picks up a piece of granite, normally used to explain the depths of the earth, and tosses it at a classmate's head.

I've seen kids do things like this, I've seen my own stepson be brutal with other kids. When he did that, he got spanked, period. Yeah, I know this makes me a shitty parent in many of your eyes. My son is no longer cruel for no purpose. He's even grasped the concept that his siblings love him, and he might love them back.

As my 5 yr old daughter explains, kids can be whackadoos. You have to love them, raise them, teach them, AND let them know when they've done something wrong.

They don't apply to my question in this specific incident until AFTER the beans were removed, allegedly for this particular child's silliness. Afterward, the tantrum that occurred was "bad" and inappropriate as well as potentially dangerous. After the beans were removed, the tantrum certainly required a stern "correction" of some kind.

But before this, the original instigation is the teacher's punishment for "silly" behavior. (this has not changed in today's updated story) Nowhere in the word "silly" is the implication of threat, violence, tantrum, danger to others, etc. Is "silly" a professional codeword of teachers that means something other than how the dictionary defines it for the general population?

My root question is why was silliness so "bad" that it justified removing her beans in the first place? Why is "silliness" something to be "corrected" by a targeted punishment? One could as easily ask, why is "happiness" something to be "corrected"? (this goes back my prior post to you)

Hypothetically, because I don't have enough information, "silliness" could simply be some kind of child-speak the teacher doesn't understand. Perhaps the teacher could have talked to the girl to find out what she was saying or why she was acting the way she was. We don't know if this was done in this incident prior to the removal of the beans, or whether this child has displayed similar silly behavior prior to this where the teacher did attempt to understand.

I can certainly understand how the class clown (silly?) can disrupt the learning of others. Kindergarten, I thought, was a place to 'gently' acclimate a child to a structured classroom environment. Along with this assumption is that children don't yet know how to behave appropriately in a classroom with other children.

Silliness is to be expected from a 5-year old, IMO, and I would be very unhappy to learn that a teacher punished my child without first attempting to understand the behavior.

I agree with you, children have the "right" to be silly. Children, in my view, should never be sad, and goofiness and silly behavior from them should not only be accepted, but encouraged and embraced.

Understanding the child's behavior is a priority.

Sharing luvvies and huggies with them is essential. In my view, and I suspect you might agree with this, it is also our responsibility to teach them, not just factual inormation, but also behavioral skills.

The teacher in this example probably over-reacted. Virtually all of the responses, though, automatically assumed the child was innocent, the teacher was wrong, and the school should be sued. It all seemed kind of knee-jerk to me, and those of us with kids ought to have a decent idea what mongrels they can be and why handcuffs might appear to be a viable option.

...gung-ho if this happened to your child.

Then again, based on the tone of your post, you might be tickled pink.

I just watched one of those nanny shows for the first time a couple of days ago. I was horrified to see how much those kids were allowed to get away with by their parents. Remarkably, the nanny was able to show Mom and Dad how to correct such behaviors without spanking or otherwise striking the child. She used a "naughty stool" that the child sat on as a form of time-out.

If my own child had pulled that stunt in school, I would have been deeply embarassed by his/her actions. It would cast our own role as parents in a very bad light. We would probably want someone from the school to discuss with us what's going on with our child and suggest ways to break such abberant behavior cycles. Until then, however, a child that out of control must be dealt with immediately.

And I have spent the last nine years teaching high school kids every day.

Charging a 5 yo for battery, and the cuffs seems too excessive to me.

It looks like adults who can't deal with children - the school, the cops, and the parents for having such an out of control kid(if the kid is a product of upbringing and not some ADD/or other disease).

I worked in two day cares and 1 elementary school, in my early 20's. I had a few way out of control kids. We never considered calling the cops.

they have to taser a dad at the chuckie cheese salad bar & now they're cuffing a five year old.

give me a fucking break.

...had she been black, I'm sure the story would have been about the tragic but thoroughly accidental death of a 5-year-old, who unexpectedly stopped breathing while being subdued with a completely-safe police chokehold.

:grr:

so sad...

In schools, violence starting at earlier age
Increasingly, teachers face the task of controlling kids, even kindergarteners, who lash out physically.
By ALEX LEARY and THOMAS C. TOBIN
Published March 18, 2005


ST. PETERSBURG - The pupils were counting jelly beans as part of a math exercise when one of them started acting silly. Mrs. Ottersbach decided to take away her jelly beans.
(snip)

As a rule of thumb, teachers and school administrators are counseled to avoid touching children. Beyond that, the district expects educators to protect children from hurting themselves and others, said Jim Lott, administrator of the district's Office of Professional Standards.

The district's contract with the teachers union allows teachers to use "such reasonable physical restraint as is necessary" to protect themselves and others.

Teachers should first try to talk the student into stopping bad behavior, Stone said. If it escalates to a dangerous level, Stone said, the teacher can try wrapping a student in her arms, perhaps getting on the ground with the teacher's legs over the student's legs.
(snip)

The police reports on Monday's incident raised some questions. The girl is described as wearing a "tan dress, white shirt, white shoes. Hair in braids." Height: 4 feet 6 inches. Weight: 60 pounds.

Akins laughed at the last part. Her daughter, she said, weighs 40 pounds. The girl stood next to a reporter and measured about 31/2 feet. "She's just a regular girl," Akins said.
(snip)

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/18/Tampabay/In_schools__violence_.shtml

As she spoke, her three children rambled through the apartment. The girl, the oldest child, rode a pink bicycle through the living room, one of the training wheels missing. Her brother got up on a table and swatted a light fixture, laughing.

This kid is only going to get into more trouble as she ages.

The child's "silliness" is what instigated the teacher's punishment of denial of jelly beans. This news update doesn't explore this at all.

" Teachers should first try to talk the student into stopping bad behavior"

Why is "silly" considered "bad" behavior? Or am I misreading the context of the sentence, and bad refers to the child's tantrum? (which I agree is bad)

I find myself wondering if a Montessori school would be more appropriate for this girl. Is she an artsy, creative type, one that this teacher's or school's teaching method isn't flexible enough to incorporate into lessons?

I can't help but think of all those slightly ill adults who are prescribed anti-depressants. Did their teachers teach them early-on that happiness is inappropriate behavior? (Oh, right, anti-depressant sales are "good" for the economy.)

Unbelievable!!! Surely they have worse criminals to restrain than this!
In my day, a short, quick, sharp whack on the butt kept us in line. Never did any of us any harm.

"little girl acting silly" excuse? sounds more like a little girl with big problems, either with poor-little-rich-girl lack of discipline and accountability at home, or abnormal developmental issues that need special attention.

Most districts I know have an SRO - safety resource officer - stationed for every two or three buildings. We pay half their salary; the dept. pays the other half.

Not defending handcuffing a 5 yr old - just letting you know how these things work.

On the other hand, I also have to be concerned for the safety of my staff. I had one kid push a teacher into a TV stand, which fell and almost hit her in the head! She could have been seriously injured. But there are so many rules about what we CAN'T do to restrain a child, I can see where they would call a policeman as a last resort. They're not under the same rules. And some kids just will not stop - not for anyone! I've seen one of our principals dragging a child down the hall to her office - kid SCREAMING at the top of his lungs, swinging his arms at anything nearby. I went to her office a little later to see if he'd calmed down - and he was Just as Wild! And this was one of our best principals - very experienced.
What to do?

to help this child. I'm not surprised about the cops behavior, it will scar the little girl though.

Would child services or some other agency be more appropriate to at least transport the kids to the facility? Someone that is trained for that purpose and without the need for restraints?

whether the autism spectrum disorder is a factor.

People have been dismissing ADD, etc. as baseless (a reason to sell Ritalin or something) - but it may all be part of the mercury poisoning.

""The main finding is that for every thousand pounds of environmentally released mercury, we saw a 17 percent increase in autism rates," she said in an interview.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Florida's increase over 8 years of "children aged 6-21 served by IDEA (Individuals With Disabilities Discrimination Act) who have autism".

Florida

582 in 1992

3,926 in 2000

575 %+ increase

And that is the more severe cases. I think many may not be being diagnosed. (It's the same all over the country).

Notice the corresponding rise in batteries and violent behavior - a lot of which might be like this - a child being set off for reasons that people don't understand - could have been the sugar. Could have been the situation.




I don't think the increase in numbers of violence can be explained by TV or and increase in bad parenting or something. There could be more stress because of the economy. But it could also be mercury and other poisonings.

Sounds like schools are going to need padded rooms.

Teachers are going to need to be psychologists.

Just thinking ahead.

conditions have increased dramatically across the board in the past few years, both as a result of widespread awareness of mental illness and more active promotion of psychoactive medication.

I've been following the link of autism to mercury content for a few years, and it's certainly an intriguing possibility. But correlation does not equal causation.

I guess someone really didn't like this 5 year old. Sheesh.

5-Year-Old Cuffed, Arrested in Florida

Fri Mar 18, 2005

ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. - A 5-year-old girl was arrested, cuffed and put in back of a police cruiser after an outburst at school where she threw books and boxes, kicked a teacher in the shins, smashed a candy dish, hit an assistant principal in the stomach and drew on the walls.

The students were counting jelly beans as part of a math exercise at Fairmount Park Elementary School when the little girl began acting silly. That's when her teacher took away her jelly beans, outraging the child.

Minutes later, the 40-pound girl was in the back of a police cruiser, under arrest for battery. Her hands were bound with plastic ties, her ankles in handcuffs.

"I don't want to go to jail," she said moments after her arrest Monday.


More:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050318/ap_on_re_us/child_arrested&e=5

Five years old?

And nobody at the school could figure out what to do?

Sheesh!

Sue

Sounds like this child has some major issues on the homefront. However, I don't think the police can help with kind of problem...what are going to do...put her in jail and beat her like an animal?

....situtation.

Now the police have had to pick up the slack.

Thanks for nothing, *!

GOP solution to emotional problems is beatings, drugs, incarceration...and if all else fails, the death penalty.

Hitler also executed the mentally ill...apparently Bush thinks this is a good idea?

<<She terrorized Room 13 at Fairmount Park Elementary, trashing Mrs. O's desk, smashing a candy dish and kicking another teacher in the shins, officials said.

At the principal's office, it got worse. The girl threw books and boxes, climbed atop the desk and started stomping. She drew on the walls, hit the assistant principal in the stomach.>>

This sounds absolutely beyond the pale. I have never seen a five year old become violent like that.

<<"I wanted to play the jelly bean game," the girl said when asked what upset her at school Monday.>>

Do yall really think that taking back jelly beans for acting up is somehow a legitimate provocation for attacking people?


It's hard for me to understand. I went through hell when I was in school. For as long as I can remember, students and adults alike thought I was "different" in some way, and were sometimes cruel to the point of sociopathy in their methods of setting me apart. I literally get chills just thinking or talking about that period of my life. Although I often challenged authority and arbitrary rules, as I do to this day, I never hit anybody, even when they almost certainly deserved such retaliation. I guess it's that pacifist upbringing.

For example, once I heard a story about a child who ran out of the school into the street after a teacher took away brownie points the child had earned earlier. It's not effective to control behavior.

What you should do is not give new things until you see improvement rather than take away something the child has.

It's not clear whether the jelly beans were involved in some way, though, so if the child was throwing them at a classmate, maybe that was why the teacher did it.

I can understand the child getting angry in such a situation, but the behavior described in the story doesn't sound like behavior you'd expect by that age.

Even if the disciplinary tactics were ineffective or of questionable benefit, that still doesn't even remotely justify the consequent reaction.

Trust me, there are far more devastating and unjust things that befall young children than losing some jelly beans.

My child would get a major spanking for acting like that.