Family spokesperson: Schiavo feeding tube removed

http://www.baynews9.com/content/74/2005/3/18/74931.html

A spokesperson for Michael Schiavo says Terri Schiavo's feeding tube has been removed.

He says a prayer service was held first, and that Michael was emotional, saying he wanted to put the situation behind him.

Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Court Judge George Greer denied two U.S. House of Representative emergency motions Friday, which allowed the tube's removal.

The first motion was to intervene in the case for the House Committee on Government Reform and the second motion was to push the date back nine days so it could conduct what it calls a field investigation concerning the healthcare of Schiavo.

now we can go ahead wht the nuclear option, them democrats are throughly distracted

Sorry, but this is what this circus is about, not terry, but to see what we distract the people from

hopefully someone will restrain Geraldo from digging up her grave.

It will take her some time to die (I think) and the MSM will have a 24 hour Death Watch until she does.

and I'm sure the hysteria will ratchet up with each successive day.

Someone from Pinellas County posted here yesterday that people were protesting the removal of the life support with red tape over their mouths. Some were also supposedly going to go on a fast when the tube was removed.

I hope their tape stays in place, and I think the idea of those protestors starving themselves is a very good idea.

Let those fat asshats shut their stupid pie holes.

Isn't the supression of the First Amendment a Bush White House specialty? Here you are not only advocating the exact the same supression but outwardly wishing for the death of people you disagree with.

What are you talking about?

Man, work on that sense of humor, will you please? You're getting all caught up in something you didn't comprehend.

...have ever dreamed up!

Some people like to think outside the box....YOU were thinking completely outside solar system!

LOL!!

do you think it'll change anything? not likely imo.

...that the tape stays in place, and that the others continue their starvation tactic until the obvious conclusion is reached.

And the Lacking A Sense Of Humor Brigade is trying to corral us.

Thanks.

She just needs a tube to be fed. Can the same thing be said about babies then? They can't feed themselves. Why not just put them out of their misery and stop feeding them too.

Babies can eat. They don't require force feeding, which is what this is.

And people who require feeding tubes and choose to use them are making their own choices.

If you put food in the mouth of what was Terri, she will aspirate it. I would hope that you can appreciate the difference. A baby has the potential to attain the ability to feed itself.

starving this woman to death is not acceptable. You'd give your old dog a shot that killed him quick. That we can't do the same for humans is barbarous.

.

of her last week of life.

All the cheerleaders for her starvation should watch.

Hell, pay-per-view could make a lot of money on this...would help satiate these people's twisted sense of justice, kind of like watching gas chamber.

.

from the years of suffering and not even being aware of anything. She is just in a state of vegetation. If it was me, I would want to have the plug pulled or a feeding tube removed. My daughter's husband was run over by a hit-and-run driver and he was so severely brain-damaged that he would never be able to come out of a coma and she had to make the decision to have the plug pulled on his life support. It was very tramatic for her.

And my sister was dying of kidney cancer a few years ago and our family had to also make the decision as to take her off life support. We decided that she should go peacefully without any more suffering.

The courts have covered it several times.

Sid

brain damaged. Keeping a brain damaged patient alive artificially for 15 years after God wanted her to die is abusive. I could imagine keeping someone alive for a year or two to see if there was improvement in her condition or to see if new research was going to help her. But 15 years!!! This is abuse!

That we're twisted and we are 'cheerleaders for her starvation'?

That's a rather cruel characterization, don't you think?

As I am sure people have said in other Schiavo threads, people are taken off feeding tubes all the time. The only cruel thing about it is that the government offers no other alternative for humane death of people in these circumstances like they do for animals.

I think that those of us who support the decision to remove the tube do so primarily because that is what Terri wanted, and she deserves a dignified death.

What kind of people do you think we are?

at least for him it was over real quick.

It would be more humane to drag her out in the fucking woods and shoot her in the back of the head.

...here's a clue for you, buddy....she's been dead for quite some time. What don't you understand about her situation?

I seriously hope that you never have to deal with this kind of issue on a personal basis.

By the way...the only people that would film this event is the media, or some nutcase doctor doing it for "science". By suggesting that anyone else would want to film it makes you much sicker in my mind than the people you're attacking.

Guess what....I do.

You're not Terri, you're not Terri's chosen guardian.

This family has suffered enough.

It IS personal. They'll be telling me my daughter is a "useless noneater" next. People who are not familiar with people who have profound disabilites have no clue how threatening this is to us.

despite my wishes to NOT be on life support?

How about just respecting that different people want different things?

Sad, isn't it, that we treat pets more humanly than each other?

I know that holding someone's hand at the time of death takes place all over the world every single day.

It's the hypocrisy I abhor.

they are STARVING this girl to death

the process.

But it is only used by a very few. It is the "right" that is important. I didn't choose to get old but many choices now will be mine. I do not intend to go gently into that night but will not allow all around me to feel my suffering from some prolonged illness.

and I wish there was a better way to do what I think has to be done.

Actually, there are better ways, but ain't no judge in the world going to allow you to euthanize her quickly.

this case is a bit confusing when it comes to humane aspects. i mean, if this were the 1800s they would have let her die a long time ago...

true though, God wants her. why keep her on machines that make her live? it's like prolonging her death.

And it seems to me that Schiavo has already put Terri behind him when he moved on with his life and started a family with another woman. If all he wished is to put this situation behind him, he should have gotten a divorce and let her parents take over her care. I think he's an evil asshole. Just my opinion, of course.

then put your life on hold for another 13 while fighting with the family while watching the person who loved wiggle and jiggle like a jell-o jiggler.

I've gone through that with my one grandmother and one grandfather where they were able to be saved by machines. The only difference is how old they were compared to how old Teri is. Both had strokes that effectively destroyed the same area of the brain and were bringing back null EEGs.

The only difference is in the first case, none of the family wanted my grandfather to have to live as a vegetable, but wanted to remember him as the vibrant, intelligent man that he was. With my grandmother it split right down the family line with my mother's brother fighting to keep his mother alive and around after 72 combined strokes over 3 years robbed her of the capacity to even discern reality or identify any of her family. After her last stroke she was rendered into a vegetative state where only machines could keep her alive. He fought it, luckily for us we had insisted on her getting a living will and we had gotten her to have power of attourney to a family member who would live with her wishes.

It was not easy and the family has gotten bitterly torn apart including accusations of greed where none existed (Everything she had was decimated by the cost of her full nursing care for over 5 years.)

It took 5 days before she passed, just enough time for the family to say goodbye. This is never an easy time, but to call anyone a monster for doing what they believe to be right when the laws deny us the ability to give a swift and merciful end is nothing but ignorant savagery.

T.S. will be given hospisce treatments which means she'll be hopped up on drugs to ensure that none of her can feel the pain while her mouth is kept moist. While this is hardly kind, it is the most we are allowed to do under very archaic backward laws created from fear and ignorance in the lack of mordern technology and understanding.

Perhaps she truly didn't want to be kept alive in such and way and that to divorce her and allow her parents to totally disregard her final wishes is something that he felt would betray his wedding vows.

Perhaps he truly believes in his heart he is doing the right thing?

If he didn't care about her, he would have divorced her years ago, IMO.

EDIT: I don't mean to imply you are not entitled to think he should have handled this differently, I just think its unfair to label him a monster until you have walked in his shoes.


And I agree, it is a shame she has to starve to death. I fully support euthanasia.

If he didn't care about her he would have divorced her long ago. She will dehydrate not starve by the way. Most people in the final stages of a terminal illness neither eat nor drink. My brother-in-law just recently died from cancer. He had nothing to eat or drink for qite a few days prior to death. He could barely eat for a year prior to death. It's the lack of fluids that lead to death. She can't drink by herself.

He got a few million from a lawsuit on her behalf. He says it's all gone, but how is anyone to know that for sure? So when you say if he didn't love her truly he would have divorced her years ago, you need to remember he would have given up control of the money, money that should have gone towards her care. He has either hidden somewhere or spent it all on lawyers, neither of which is an indication of a loving husband. He's scum.

deal with her. If all he wanted was money, he'd have taken that offer.

When a person totally incapacitated is forced to live, something is very wrong. I have been a care provider for many years and I am well aware that when an elderly person chooses not to remain and are still competent, they usually begin to eat less and less until they develop weakness and/or illness and stop eating at all. That truly has been the choice for the "old" among all people for centuries so don't call it inhumane or wrong.
I lost my own mother from brain injury in 1946, and thankfully they didn't force people with machines to remain in a vegetative state like some zombie then. The medical profession has done many good things but they still kill thousands every year with stupidity and error. They aren't perfect enough to decide life or death!

Read the damn case.

:eyes:

Schiavo wouldn't let them treat infections even before he won the money to care for her.
He spent $400,000 he won on Terry's behalf on his atty to have her starved to death

I saw him on Nightline; his attorney said all the money went to her care. He didn't make a cent on the lawsuit.

Here's the transcript.



ETA: quote and link to transcript.

....Thank you for being one of the few rational people in this thread!

:-)

The financial expenditures on Terri's behalf are scrupulously documented in court filings. That's a given fact, and no one - except you - would dispute it.

I believe that love means staying and fighting for the person to whom you gave your troth before God.

Go read the court filings and see that Mrs. Schiavo has been a Medicaid patient for years.

How on earth can you make such ill-advised, unfounded, untrue statements? Why do you even bother?

Scum is a word that comes to mind when I read your posts, yes, but for Michael Schiavo, the proper word is "hero."

There are not a "few million" for starters.

There was no FEW million.

There is no million even.

Why would loving her mean divorcing her and abandoning her to two parents who admit they'd defy her wishes?

BUT, someone posted above amongst the vitriolic attacks on me, a partial transcript, and when asked about the lawsuit, Schiavo admitted to have gotten "something north of $1 million". So, he did get AT LEAST a million, but will not say exactly how much. As for what her wishes were or would be now if she could express them, it is merely HIS WORD that this was her wish. As I've said about a million times, if her parents want her then he should have bowed out. He has a new family, a new woman and new children. I'm quite sure if I was in that kind of situation, I would have told my boyfriend to either let go of her, or I'm leaving. No way in hell I would put up with this kind of grief when the wife has family willing to take up the burden. So all of you can just BACK THE FUCK UP!!!

The malpractice award was or is almost used up. There wasn't any monetary advantage for the husband.

He could had accepted either the $1 million or $10 million bribe to walk away from his wife's suffering and let the parents take over.

But IMO he had more integrity by sticking with his wife to complete her wish then to abandon her to the parents and the wolves.

Her parents asked him to divorce her and turn her care over to them.

He could even have kept the money, the part of the settlement that went to him anyway.

I really believe he loves her and is doing what she wanted. He has had every chance to walk away from this world of shit and he HASN'T.

I would hope my wife would do the same. Though I have my wished on paper. There will be no doubt as to what I want done. That is Terri's, and her husband's, mistake imho.

Just my two cents.

Ick!

husband

divorcing her would not have been right - he promised to care for her in sickness and in health. And he has done so, by all that is merciful do you seriously think he should not have found companionship and had a family?

Think about it - Were it your spouse and you were the one in a vegetative state would YOU want to deprive YOUR spouse of love and companionship and a family - all of which YOU would not be able to give (due to aforementioned vegetative state...)

This of course assumes you love your spouse and would want them to be happy when you were gone, and for all intents and purposes Schiavo's wife has been "dead" for 15 years. Her brain - the source of HER - is gone, all that remains is an empty shell.

Well said!

were in Terri's position.

I know my parents would not oppose my choice of guardian or my final disposition. But if they did...

Nice talk about someone you don't know.

Nice that you're such an expert on what others "should" do.

Don't worry - your compassion isn't showing.

...for quite some time, and followed through on what Terri wanted him to do in this kind of situation. If that means he's an "evil asshole", then I hope I have the strength of character to follow through on my wife's last wishes if anything like that were to happen to her.

Her parents wanted to keep Terri's shell of a body alive forever so that they could remind themselves for the rest of their lives what she had been like before the accident. They were going to treat her like a living photograph...don't you think that's more than a little bizarre? Under those conditions, they would have died long before she did...who would have taken care of her then?

would deny her wishes no matter what?

Why is it evil to fulfill his responsibility to Terri while having his own life as well?

As Ron Reagan said, people who are dying don't eat and drink. Terri will die, sooner or later. Dying of dehydration (which is what it will be, not "starvation") isn't anywhere near as horrible as the other options. In the absence of any of the other many maladies she could suffer, the most likely manner will be organ dysfunction and shut down. First it would be sporadic, but ultimately horrific. Another option would be for her to catch pneumonia and die of drowning in her own body fluids. That's how my grandfather died. It was awful. The coughing got so bad, he probably died of exhaustion as much as suffocation. Or she could go like my grandmother. The Alzheimer's got so bad that basic brain functions of mobility and bladder control were affected. Catheterized to prevent infection, bed sores beginning to form, having to check her eyes because she didn't blink that often, trying to balance hydration because she wouldn't drink when she was thirsty, and all manner of horrible "treatment" because her heart didn't know to stop beating. Once if finally did, there was no point to an open casket because the torture to her body left little to present to anyone who knew her.

No one can "save" Terri. She is going to die. The only questions left are when and how. When it comes to delaying that event, the question becomes, why.

But she's not at all aware, hasn't been for all these years, and all that's going to happen is the natural process that was interrupted all those years ago, when she really died.

It's for the living that we should grieve - like what her husband has had to endure in order to do right for his wife. He's a hero.

If she had any way of being aware of the difference.......

I'd reiterate to folks what the doctor said to them about putting a feeding tube in...

It is like putting gas in a car in which the engine is either missing or frozen.

This has been done for the past 15 years to Terry Schiavo?

I am sorry, but this is just wrong.

That's what the real issue is. If you believe her husband when he says that Terri told him she would not want tubes, then you should honor her wishes. If you don't believe him, then you'd be right to be against removal of tubes. Terri has (had) every right to refuse treatment. To hear her husband tell it, she did indeed say "No tubes."

The people who are against removing the tubes don't believe her husband, but they'd probably be in favor of any competent adult patient having the right to refuse a treatment they didn't want. Terri supposedly did that in advance when she told her husband she'd never want tubes. I believe him when he says that she told him that.

I have a very bad feeling about this guy. Even Dr. michael baden, the forensic specialist from HBO's Autopsy series said it is more likely that Terri's brain damage was caused by strangulation than by eating disorders.

Terri's brain damage was caused by CARDIAC ARREST which occurred as a result of her bulemia. Her heart stopped, thus no oxygen got to her brain. And to everyone that says her husband should have divorced her...Terri was a strict catholic...divorce is against catholic traditions. Once again, her devoted husband was only doing what he thought was best for Terri. To all of you who want her kept alive...just put yourself in her shoes. She has no cognition. When you have been in a vegetative state for 15 years, your brain liquefies...Have you not seen the pictures of her cat scan?? There is NOTHING there...it is liquid goo. I for one am extremely happy that she is going to finally be able to stop her suffering.

Strangulation does NOT cause an electrolyte imbalance--which is exactly what precipitated her heart stopping.

Read the court case, before you spew nonsense!

Electrolyte imbalances are found in most women who have had acute bulimia for a long period of time.

There was no evidence of strangulation. That's absurd. There were no marks on her neck. However, the doctors did find that her potassium and electrolytes were totally out of wack.

Are people going to start making things up now?

That's really infuriating!

And if you have a "bad feeling" about someone you see on TV, I urge you to turn it off and go for a walk in the fresh air.

You really shouldn't embarrass yourself by posting quote from a guy on a TV show.

Or, given how hard I'm still laughing at what you wrote, maybe you should.

No matter what the actual investigation or involved physicians say.

an emergency room doctor seeing a living body at the time of the medical event has a much better idea of whether or not there was physical assault on her body. You strangle someone hard enough to stop their heart: you think that leaves no marks? You smother someone that hard: vessels break in the eyes. Give the people who treated her in real life at the time a little bit of credit. They are not only trained to save lifes; they are also the MDs who call the police if there is an suspicion of a crime. They were actually there, not Dr. Baden, who may still have some respect in court, but is just a talking head when he is on television shows.

And, if her family believed her to be abused, why was no effort made to report that at the time of her cardiac event? Why did they continue to let Michael live with them for years afterwards? All of these allegations of abuse came years later, when no evidence could possibly exist but when innuendo was free to run.

...my views about him I've stated elsewhere. What about the judge? After all, Mr. Schiavo and his attorney tell us that the judge has decided that Terri must die, and that even if Mr. Schiavo were to relinquish guardianship, the judge's determination would stand. Terri would have to undergo starvation and die, because the judge has found that this is what she wanted.
He has forbidden any tests to determine her present condition, forbidden any attempt to feed her orally, forbidden any questioning of his decision, even a swallowing test, because the result might call his decision into question. A helpless, disabled woman who is not dying of any natural cause, has been ordered to be starved to death, by order of a Republican judge widely admired by his peers.
You don't have a problem with that?
You should.
Jeb Bush and his brother are making noises against this execution, as their conservative base expect them to, but they're not doing anything to stop it. Why is that? They certainly have the power, the ability and the dishonesty to sabotage that judge's entire career, to twist his arm or to discredit him. They don't have to follow the law.
Do you see a dead girl in the judge's bed, or a live boy? I don't. What's keeping the Bush boys from making their followers happy?
These are the people who can derail a general election. You think they can't get around George Greer?

>He has forbidden any tests to determine her present condition

Her present condition, regardless of anything that might have happened in the time between now and her previous examinations, includes the lack of a cerebral cortex. I.E. Persistent vegetative state (which is called persistent for fairly obvious reasons, I think)

>forbidden any attempt to feed her orally

Yes, because it would not work.

>forbidden any questioning of his decision

I think you have a thing or two to learn about how the US legal system works, starting with the role of the judiciary branch.

>even a swallowing test

I don't understand where you're going with this. If she's fed orally she'll likely choke and end up being just as dead as if the feeding tube were removed.

>A helpless, disabled woman who is not dying of any natural cause

Were it not for the feeding tube, she'd already be dead of natural causes, or suffocation from people trying to feed her orally. Please. This woman is completely, utterly brain dead. No good can possibly come of feeding an unthinking, unfeeling shell of a former person until it dies of something far more cruel than starvation (probably an infection or some such thing)

It doesn't matter whether or not the body still lives. The brain is gone. She's brain dead. As it's been stated elsewhere, the only reason anyone gives a shit about this case is because the woman isn't 90 years old.

No criticism at you.but do you know anyone who would prefer life on life support? I'm talking little or no brain activity,hooked up to machines.

I don't know why so much disinformation is out there.

in the sense everyone who has never dealt with death first hand seems to think. She is not sentient. She feels no hunger, thirst, pain -or joy, for that matter. Most likely she has a morphine drip to insure her comfort. It is a peaceful departure. The only painful thing about any of this has been the God-awful political circus surrounding it.

would never allow a quick shot... think of what they did to Kevorkian.

then she's not really living?
She lights up and smiles when she sees her parents-
so she's severely menatlly disfunctional--
alot like so many who think she should die a "peaceful" starvation death-
Geez-the husband isn't married to her-
her parents brought her into the world.
Why the hell can't they just let her parents care for her?
nobody gets hurt--the dude doesn't get his insurance money-that's about the hurt he'd be feeling.

>so she's severely menatlly disfunctional

What part of "brain dead" don't you understand? I know they've managed to monkey this videotape together, but you really need to learn the difference between voluntary and involuntary responses, and the implications of not having a cerebral cortex.

And the issue of whether it's peaceful to her or not is a complete red herring. You could saw her arms off right now and she'd feel no pain. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but that's the truth.

This is getting as bad as the nukes-caused-the-tsunami stuff.

until she dies. I seriously suspect there will be another motion to have the tube put back in. And so it will go on back and forth over and over.

This is very very sad. I know I wouldn't want to live 15 years in a vegetative state. I can only imagine what my family would go through. Maybe it would make them a bit crazy which I do believe is what has happened with Terri's parents.

Mz Pip
:dem:

:eyes:

and it went back in when the FL legislature pulled their backdoor move, so you are absolutely correct!

This is the THIRD time this tube is being removed. To subject this women to another insertion of a feeding tube is not only cruel, but it is inhumane.

People need to write wills, living wills and power of attorney assignment.
It is very important. Many cases would be resolved and the families relieved if only these steps were taken in advance more often.

Figure out what you want for yourself. People should actually face their own mortality. Live your own life - invision your own death. Stop using someone else to push back your fear of death.

of this whole matter and some of the reactions people are having to it. It is fascinating to watch people going on about this, something that absolutely is none of their business and have way too much emotion invested in this. It is really getting to be odd.

to storm the hospice now!

Breaking: Public urging Gov. Bush to use National Guard to protect Terri Schiavo
The New Tech Diary | 3/18/2005 | 1stFreedom


Posted on 03/18/2005 12:19:15 PM PST by 1stFreedom


March 18, 2005 -- New York, NY

People across the nation are contacting the Governor's office encouraging him to utilize the Florida National Guard.

Under provisions of Florida Statute 250.28, the Governor may utilize the guard in order to execute the laws of the state when the local authorities are not able to.

Orders issued by Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer are in clear violation Article I Section 2 of the Constitution of the State of Florida.

These orders have created confusion as to what course of action is to be taken by local authorities, and has resulted in a resistance to protecting the rights of Terri Schiavo.

Under Florida Statue 250.28, the Governor is given authority to use the National Guard to prevent resistance to the execution of state laws.

X X X



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Breaking News; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: FLORIDA; GREER; PINELLAS; SCHIAVO; TERRI; TERRISCHIAVO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK folks, get Gov. Bush to exercise his authority as Gov. to protect Terri.. EMAIL HIM THIS OR A SIMILAR MESSAGE. Call if you can (can't find a phone # for his office)..
jeb.bush@myflorida.com

3/18/2005

Dear Gov. Bush,

Under Article I Section 2 of the Constitution of the State of Florida, Terri Schiavo has the enumerated right to life. The State Constitution also states that "No person shall be deprived of any right because...physical handicap."

Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer does not have the authority do deprive Terri of this right simply because she cannot communicate, and he is using this physical handicap to deprive her of this right, in clear violation of the State Constitution.

On order to enforce Terri's right to I encourage you to exercise your authority as Governor of Florida to ensure that she is protected.

Judge George Greer’s order to allow the tube to be removed will cause chaos at the local level. The local authorities will be prevented, by court order, from enforcing Terri's right to life as enumerated under the State Constitution. The only reason she is being deprived of this is due to her physical disabilities. Were she not disabled, she could defend herself.

The unconstitutional rulings issued by the judge have created a resistance to the execution of the laws and Constitution of Florida, a condition under which Florida Statute 250.28 gives you authority to utilize the Florida National Guard in order to eliminate such resistance. Please utilize the guard to ensure her feeding tube remains in place and her sustenance continued.

Sincerely


1 posted on 03/18/2005 12:19:15 PM PST by 1stFreedom
< Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies >

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1365693/posts

Begging him to let her go in peace. I need to wash my hands now.

They're all in Iraq!

:crazy:
rocknation

Jesus! This nation is in such a state of lunacy. I feel like I'm in bizarro world! We send healthy vibrant young men and women over to kill and be killed by innocent civilians trying to protect what's left of there war torn country. Instead of focusing on this, the nation is in a bitter fight about a patient that's been in a vegatative state for 15 years! This is complete craziness!

How about those ALIVE who are brain damaged (kevlar), have lost limbs, or are otherwise SEVERELY traumatized who WOULD BENEFIT from proper timely health care and are being DENIED such by the current *misanthropistration? 'Murika is a FUCKING LOONEY BIN, a danger to itself and others. :eyes:

They're all in Iraq.

Women are the property of their father until married and their husband after that (Ex. 20:17, 22:17, Deut. 22:24, Mat 22:25).

Not that I agree but the religious zealots should let the husband decide I would think he would know better than anyone what her wishes are.

:P

This is the second time the tube has been removed in this case, so keep a watch folks, the religiously insane have this ghoulish delight for animating corpses.

Who is paying for all her medical bills? Tom DeLay?

Just a reminder, a severely disabled 6 month old baby was taken off a ventilator against the mother's wishes (he died a few moments later) in Texas. He was black and born to a unmarried young, black woman who had no prenatal care and is mentally disturbed. The mother has no momey or private insurance.

Two questions: 1.) Where were *, Jeb and Frist when they took this baby off of life support against the mother's wishes? 2.) Why do they crow about the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman until one member of the couple makes a decsion they don't agree with? 3.) Do they not believe "God" will either a.) cure Terri or b.) take her to heaven right away? Just something to think about.

Had an incurable genetic disorder in which his chest cavity was too small to support lungs big enough to keep him alive. The hospital was very right in taking him off of life support, and it had nothing to do with who the mother was. The mother was irrational in her thinking that this baby would ever be normal.

Without prenatal care, they didn't know about the condition. I believe that if an informed woman carries the baby to term, they deliver, hold the baby then the baby dies after a few minutes.

They put this baby on a ventilator because they did not know what was wrong with him in advance and it was a shocking surprise to the hospital staff and to the mother. So sad. :cry:

But aren't all of these people who think that after 15 years, Terri has a shot at life also being irrational? In fact I wish they would be more consistent in their irrationality. I agree completely with your point but I think the real issue is that all of these right to lifers are falling all over themselves to protest the govenment taking a life but are absolutely mute when it came to this case.

And yes, race definitely plays a part. Can you imagine if the baby and mother in this case had been white? Unstable mother or not, there would be certain people who would have seized upon both of these cases as examples of government running amok killing god fearing americans. And if the Terri's parents, in spite of overwhelming medical evidence to the contrary, can demand that their daughter be given a shot a life, then why shoot down this woman's same fervent belief about her baby?

Ok my head hurts now. It's just amazing isn't it? That as we have become more and more technologically advanced, the resulting pandora's box of ethical, moral and spiritaul issues has become even more complex. Too bad the nature of our country is too exploit this for some short term cause than to really try to grasp and deal with these complexities.

From the news article: "Terri Schiavo's feeding tube has been removed twice before and both times, a court ordered it to be reinserted."

They loved Strom Thurmond, and they're crazy about President Ratface.

:hi:

I will admit I've been back and forth on this, and I'm still not sure I can decide which side to land on. I emailed my sister, a nurse in Florida, for her opinion this morning. Here's what she said -

"When I first heard about this case, I came down squarely on
the side of the parents. Their talk of her following them around the room and trying to speak got to me. However, I have now changed my mind. My reasons:
1. I have heard no testimony, other than that of the "experts" hired by her parents, that claimed any possibility of meaningful recovery, in fact quite the contrary. The woman has been brain dead for 15 years and her brain tissue itself is so deteriorated that her skull is full of spinal fluid. That was the opinion of the court appointed tie breaker expert doctor.

2. I do not believe the husband is a bad guy for making a new life with someone else. He cannot be in it for the money, as he has spent lots maintaining her over the years, and has twice turned down offers of money to back out gracefully. I believe that he truly loved her and has her best interest at heart and also that she told him at one time that she would not want to live like this. The only way he can maintain control of the situation and carry out HER WISHES is to stay married to her, which he has.

3. Starvation is not the cruel and horrible death that some people seem to imagine it is. It is a natural part of the progression from this life to the next. Any terminally ill person will eventually stop eating and drinking. Internal organs then begin shutting down, and usually kidny failure occurs, which is not painful at all. If there is pain, it can be controlled quite nicely with morphine.

4. The so-called "purposeful movements" that the parents are talking about look very much like reflexive movements that any person in a persistant vegetative state makes. Eyes move about, vocalizations occur and limbs twitch. I believe the parents are having trouble letting go and are seeing what they wish to see.

5. If life is so sacred, who are we to interfere with its natural
progression by putting feeding tubes into people to keep them alive
artificially anyway?"

I played devil's advocate and countered with "yeah, but if you stop feeding your dog, you can go to jail". She countered with "If your dog can eat and you don't feed it, you can go to jail. If your dog
can't eat, you put it to sleep."

So I don't know. I DO know this whole circus being played out in the Senate today, however, is despicable.

I haven't really been following this situation. (I avoided Scott Peterson, too!) I did see a tape of this woman a few months ago and she appeared coherent. What is her current condition? Is she alert at all?

heavily edited tapes showing autonomic responses which in no way were influenced by outside stimuli. It was proaganda perpetrated on the American public by the religiously insane.

She's dead, Jim.

She has only a brain stem that controls breathing and a saliva swallowing reflex and other very primitive functions.. See this link for a scan of a normal brain vs. Terri's brain (what's left of it):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3292852&mesg_id=3293588&page=

Seeing those scans really reinforces my belief that Terri was gone 15 years ago.

If the brain could have made new connections etc, it would have done so within a year.

Sorry, but I think keeping her alive after seeing those brain scans is abusive.

Especially considering there were multiple witnesses testifying to her wish to not be kept alive by tubes and or machines.

Edited for typo.

we had to take my dad of life support after a massive stoke destoyed his brain. It was a horrible time for us. he had told us "don't keep me "alive" if my brain is gone. He was a surgeon. He dealt with life and death and disability everyday. We honored his wish. :cry: I miss him always, but I know that his corneas and kidneys live on in 4 other people!

I've not seen any tapes of that nature.

if she was alert and coherent, had any semblence of brain function, had anything at all going on upstairs...

do you think they'd pull the plug on her?

No.

She's a radish, for all intents and purposes.

have a date of August 2001 on them (it shows her sitting up, with someone -- presumably her mother -- touching her face).

There is no way she is in that "good" of shape now.

I don't think they are being permitted to show more recent photos or video. I have a feeling that if up to date photos were shown, most of the emotional energy would go out of the case - i.e. she probably looks "body dead" by now. Thus, the prohibition against more recent photos.

This is just a case of the families fighting over it.

Sensenbrenner and that thug, Roy Blount, will let this go this easily. At their press conference today, Delay said thay would be working today, Saturday, and Sunday on this issue. The House will be in session on Monday to take up their bill.

"We got news on what happened to Terri. Terri said "I--want--to--live" and was heard from a policeman. They ushered out the Schindlers and the policeman now denies the story. They went ahead bent on continuing. Terri is talking, and she is being silenced!!!!"

They've gone TOTALLY INSANE over there.

It's great fun watching them lose what little bit of sanity they had !

It just doesn't get any better than this.

behavior from Congressional Republicans and the Freep Creeps ten years ago? Where was the "compassion" then? If memory serves, saving Terry Schiavo wasn't on their list of priorities back in 1994. However, running Bill Clinton out of town on a rail WAS. Judas Priest, the hypocrisy and arrogance of this crowd is just unbelievable.

I feel for this woman, but not because of her medical condition. She's being used as a political pawn by DeLay, Frist, Santorum and the Religious Right. Flying her up to D.C., wheeling her into a Congressional hearing room, and turning Ms. Schiavo into some sort of evangelical freak show is more than I can stomach, thank you very much.


(on edit: typo)

but if she said "I want to live", then she's probably capable of eating and drinking without the tube.

Which I doubt.

Are they that fucking stupid? Oh yeah that's right they ARE!

in this case, and they always believe everything they read. "Cheryl Ford" is one such propagandist:

UPDATE
MARCH 18, 2005
3:00 PM

FROM: CHERYL FORD, NURSE SPOKESPERSON SCHINDLER FOUNDATION

TERRI'S FEEDING TUBE WAS REMOVED.

WORD WAS JUST RECEIVED THAT TERRI'S PARENTS WERE ASKED TO LEAVE TERRI'S ROOM. MICHAEL SCHIAVO WAS PRESENT WHEN THE FEEDING TUBE WAS REMOVED.

JODI'S BROTHER, J. CENTONZE STEPPED OUT OF MICHAEL'S AND JODI'S HOUSE IN CLEARWATER AND TOLD REPORTER THAT TERRI'S FEEDING TUBE HAD BEEN REMOVED. REPORTED BY BAY NEWS NINE LOCAL NEWS!

SCHIAVO SAID HE ALLOWED A PRAYER SERVICE WITHOUT THE FAMILY PRESENT.
TERRI'S PARENTS WERE ASKED TO LEAVE THEIR DAUGHTER'S ROOM AT 1:45 PM ET.

HER LAST INITIAL FEEDING BEGAN AT 11:00 AM ET. SHE HAD SOME NUTRITION PROVIDED BEFORE JUDGE GREER ORDERED HER FEEDING TUBE REMOVED STATED BARBARA WELLER, ATTORNEY FOR THE GIBBS FIRM.

TERRI'S PARENTS ARE VERY UPSET.

NOTE: THERE WAS NO REASON TO PULL HER TUBE AND PUT HER THROUGH PAIN AND DISCOMFORT. THEY COULD HAVE CAPPED HER FEEDING TUBE OFF AND PREVENTED THE PAIN SHE EXPERIENCED FROM HAVING A FEEDING TUNE PULLED FROM HER ABDOMEN.

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! PEOPLE NEED TO ACT NOW.

THIS IS NO MORE HUMANE THAN WHEN THE FIRST PERSON WAS MARCHED INTO A GAS CHAMBER!

1,871 posted on 03/18/2005 1:41:45 PM MST by amdgmary (Please visit www.terrisfight.org and www.theempirejournal.com)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1365111/posts?q=1&&page=1801

These people are F U C K I N G SICK!

He keeps bitching and moaning on how anyone that wouldn't want to be kept alive on a machine have something mentally wrong with them.

W T F?!?!?!?!?

I agree with the several other posters here who have said the same thing--if I'm ever to the point where I'd be in a vegitative state, PULL THE GODDAMN PLUG!!!

suicide assist law ...I mean if I'm brain dead, I don't think I'd
want to starve to death, more someone give me a lethal injection
and get it over with...sounds horrific and awful.

Why can't the US deal with the land of the grey zone called
the living dead?

I mean, if you're really a heavy-duty believer, and you honestly, in your heart and soul, know that a greater joy is awaiting you in Paradise, what's to be afraid of?

Those guys flying the planes into the WTC had faith in their beliefs. Why don't American Christian fundamentalists measure up to them?

(I break myself up sometimes.)

this would be a totally different matter......if she needed marijuana to live and stave off the pain..they would be begging them to pull the plug.........

He's really ripping the Senate & the House for their underhanded tactics. He asked everyone to call or write their Senators and Rep. and tell them to stop interfering in private business!!

He sounds like a sharp guy.

Has been wonderful in describing what the US Congress has done for their own political gain. He is not holding back and he is waving the red flag for all of us.

He has fought for years to starve a woman to death. real hero there

Or do you not believe in personal choices about these matters?

that I DON'T want to be kept alive by ANY means! I told my kids, my husband, my cousins, and anyone else who would stop long enough to listen!

Since this BS with Terri, I have also made a living will. It's too damn bad that my requests weren't enough for our courts! I'm actually afraid now that these same courts will find a was to declare my living will invalid. Scary country I live in now.

That can work to our benefit. I love to see freeptards and other repukes get really mad at their craven leaders.

Post seen on freakrepublic:

"The blame lies entirely on the House, most especially Tom Delay. They knew the Senate would only approve a specific bill pertaining to Terry, but they (the House) decided to pass a bill regarding all cases such as these. Then they adjourned for their holiday. This is unforgivable.

The issue here is Terry and Terry alone. For the time being. Tom DeLay knew this but still acted in the manner in which he did.

Words cannot express my level of contempt for Mr. DeLay and I hope he goes down in flames in 2006."

The above is a post from the evening of March 17, by some freeper named "watsonfellow". As many of you know, it is possible to check to see how long-term a freepster a poster is, by clicking on the posting name. This "watsonfellow" is a long-term freepster.<p>

And LOOK at how he is talking about TOM DELAY--one of their heroes!<p>

Yes, this Schiavo issue has the potential to split them and make them mad at their leaders, and that's a good thing.<p>

What with the bug man's other little problems, the only question now is, will Tom DeLay's political(criminal) career live longer than will the helpless Terri Schiavo? I live to see the headline: "Feeding Tube Removed From DeLay's Career".

WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO TERRI IS EXACTLY WHAT HITLER DID TO THE DISABLED - HITLER STARVED PEOPLE TO DEATH !!!

I'M A REPUBLICAN NO MORE.. MY PARTY HAS FAILED TO SAVE A DISABLED WOMAN FROM MURDER.

THEY ARE MURDERING TERRI..

OUR COUNTRY AS WE KNOW IS GONE... THEY DREW THE LINE IN THE SAND.

MAY GOD HELP US ALL!!!

1,367 posted on 03/18/2005 1:28:56 PM PST by Pepper777 (

The posts you highlighted are a perfect example; their screaming over the immigration issue is another example. Remember, these are the people who drove 40 miles on dirt roads from their trailers to vote on Nov. 2 because "IF I DON'T VOTE TODAY, QUEERS MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET MARRIED!" (oh, the humanity!)

We are close to unlocking the secret of how to control these people the way their current puppeteer, Junior, controls them. (Since it's illegal to kill them, we might as well try to channel them into some harmless direction.)

One more lady in a persistent vegetative state gets whacked, and we might even be able to convince them to overrun the White House grounds. Yesss!!!

http://www.baynews9.com/content/74/2005/3/18/74931.html

"A spokesperson for Michael Schiavo says Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed Friday with Michael in attendance.


He says a prayer service was held first, and that Michael was emotional and crying, saying he wanted to put the situation behind him.

Terri Schiavo's parents, the Schindlers, visited with Terri Friday morning, prior to the tube's removal."

.

Let her die, it's just a shame for Michael and his family that it will take her several days. That must be horrible, the wait. I think it would be better to give her a lethal injection and end her and Michael's suffering

allow people to believe that Terry's brain could get better.

starving them to death.

Philosophy and ideology are fine for message boards, but when push came to shove, no one would fuck with my kid. End of story.

parent that would be even more reason for me to protect them from such a horrible fate, especially if they have no voice of their own.

I personally think this should have been a family issue, but unfortunately it entered the courts, and its her husband's words against her parents. I tend to believe the husband. I think the parents' hearts may be in the right place, but I think maybe they don't want to believe her husband because they don't want to let her go. But that's just my opinion.

It just kind of bothers me that people say she can't speak for herself when her husband, whose job it is to speak for her now, has said that she DID say she did not want this.

wishes when she was healthy.

Days of starvation, though natural ... or 15 years of being trapped in a withering body with only most basic of function? I certainly know what my answer is, and I hope your children never have to endure this "fate". I wish people would realize that this is about Terri, not her parents. :shrug:

state before, but for her family to watch her slowly starve to death is going to be worse than physical torture.

Its not even clear whether this is what she wants. What people say they want then they're perfectly healthy can change dramatically after the fact. Wouldn't it be a shame if she really does want to live but can't tell anyone because of her condition.

not Terri, with the same hopeful naivete that she is able to feel anything. I think it would be much more tortuous to watch my once vibrant child be tethered to bed by body she has no control over because I choose to prolong the suffering under some false hope that she will recover. I don't understand how that is not selfish, particularly since they claim to be devout. This is not "locked-in syndrome" where the mind is whole but the body refuses to respond. Aloowing Terri to be free is the only humane thing to do.

more on it and I'm inclined to agree with you. Its her husband's decision, and its obvious that he's proven that he has her best interests at heart having stood by her side for the last 15 years.

If this is what she said she wanted before she went into PVS then pulling the feedinb tube is the right thing to do. If Mike wanted to quit he would have relinquished custody of her to her parents long ago, it is clear that he loves his wife very much.

I suppose I fell into that trap many people often find themselves stuck in, holding on to that last possibility that we might be making the mistake of letting her die against her wishes. But these cases are never easy, and based on what we have to work with, letting her move on is the best thing we can do for her.

And you are right, if my child made it clear to me that PVS was an existence they could not live in I would administer the morphine infection myself.

I appreciate the discussion, and feel more comfortable with Terry moving on to a better place now.

and I would never want to make the heartwrenching decision to let my child go. My stepfather was forced make the decision to remove his father from life support. One week ago today, I was sitting in a room with the family to refine the DNR points. I feel that we made the best decision possible which was to allow a twenty-four hour waiting period (vs. immediately pulling support) to give him an opportunity to express his wishes and therefore lighten the burden of guilt. IMHO the consideration falls something like 75% for the patient and 25% to the one being forced to carry out the their wishes. I say that because the living members, while acting in the ultimate best interest of the patient, do not deserve to be haunted by regret. This worked well for us, and he passed away peacefully Sunday night.

I mean if the Schindlers truly believe what they claim... that is who they should be angry with.

you are the one using the words"if and would". so for YOU, it's ideaology, and just theoretical.... and a lot of us thought things were so black and white, too.

No offense, but there are some things that words and ideas are useless or worse for. Black and white, as you put it. This board has a lot of people who are trying to win arguments, and put each other down. In fact, your manner makes it seem like you're one of them.

It is not theoretical to me, btw. I've dealt with a similar situation. You have no idea.

alive as an empty vegetable for decades on life support?

who had no cerebral cortex left and was in a PVS, I would put my selfish needs and wants aside and discontinue all life support.

To do otherwise is the height of selfishness and stupidity.

In A PVS there is no hope for recovery because the brain itself is damaged and cannot regenerate (in her case her entire neocortex is completely gone. Nothing in her skull but spinal fluid and the remaining part of the brain required for automatic functions (breathing and whatnot)). This woman is dead. Whether you are a believer in a soul or not (atheist here) she is dead already. Mr. Schiavo has basically nothing to gain from this (he has stated publicly he would give the remaining money from her settlement which is now less than $50,000 to charity if asked to do so), he is doing this because she told him she didn't wish to be kept alive like this (a verbal living will agreement). Courts have found repeatedly that there is no hope of recovery, that there are no cognitive functions happening in her brain (she doesn't even dream like some of those who have come out of coma have reported), the courts have also found repeatedly that it is Terry Schiavo's wish to not be kept alive in this type of situation, that her husband controls the decision making process (next of kin, another reason why gay marriage is not just some minor issue, it comes down to the basic rights we gain through marriage), and that her wishes should be carried out.

Her parents have consistently politicized this issue through their extremist views and the issue has escalated to the point that Congress is attempting to step in.

The whole thing is a travesty. The woman is effectively dead already. If you believe in a soul, how could you possibly be in favor of leaving it trapped inside the shell with no ability to act or think in any way shape or form? If you don't believe in a soul, then why bother to keep her shell alive at great expense for no other reason than to give her parents a false sense of hope for recovery which is flatly *impossible*

Let this poor woman die. People find the prospect of starvation barbaric and on its face it seems that way, but in fact it is not, this is how many people die, there will be no pain involved (she feels no pain already, there is no "she" in there) and she'll simply pass away in a few days like she should have been allowed to do 15(!!) years ago.

along with his attorney.

You possibly might had been more informed about the situation watching it. I was! There were details that came out that I didn't know before only because I didn't bother to research the situation.

Everything about why the husband was doing what he was doing was in my opinion the right thing. It was apparent that it wasn't about him but the wishes of his wife and his promise.

As for being creepy... we don't have the opportunity of working, doing business, going to church or other activity with this guy. Without that we can't judge whether he is creepy. If anyone of us had grew up with this guy or worked long term or something with him we probably wouldn't consider him to be creepy because we would know the type he is as a person.

last time I saw the guy on larry king, he just seemed to way to determined to pull the plug. he doesn't even seem to care how that might seem to the family, hell to be truthfully honest I wouldn't even get re-married until she had passed on (before you start screaming, I said get married, I didn't say I wouldn't get laid :~))

to them?

If I were in Terri's spot I'd want my spouse to never give up fighting on behalf of me and MY choice.

My parents would respect my wishes, but there are a lot who wouldn't - and Terri's admit they wouldn't.

What does "they're her parents" mean?

Are you under the impression that all parents are good decent people?

Are you under the impression that the will of a parents supercedes the will of an adult about their own life?

If it's inevitable she will die, a doctor should be allowed to administer a lethal dose of morphine or something along those lines.

She ISN'T THERE.

:headbang:
rocknation

higher thinking doesn't sit well with alot of people.--I know-- Guess what?

The brain is just an organ.

Her "higher self" would know the discomfort of starvation.
You know, the "metaphysical" part that makes a person.

Stupid people, retarded people, less aware people are alive and aren't very aware of things,

No reason to not provide them essentials and assistance in doing things they can't do on their own.


.

years ago.

Letting nature take its course vs. injecting someone -- big difference.

The second is euthanasia...a la Kevorkian. The first is tied to DNR and the like.

the same "right to life" crowd that points out the cruelty of such a death are the very ones who oppose people to die with dignity by taking a lethal injection or more human means of terminating their life.

And an indirect side effect of morphine is suppression of the respiratory system. She will not die of starvation, but rather of dehydration/respiratory arrest.

I'm really not very impressed by the actions of anyone in Terri Schiavo's family right now--no matter what side they're on.

Still, if it's going to happen, it could be done in a more merciful manner.

I know, but it just seems like removing the tube is more trouble than it's worth. If she's going to die, wouldn't her parents rather allow her to drift off into sleep rather than slowly starve? Wouldn't it be easier for everyone? There's already been so much pain on both sides like this; I just wish they could make an exception.

being kept alive by feeding tubes to her friends and husband. I have done the same thing but never put it in a living will. I think I will now because I would hate to be kept alive in that manner. At the end of many peoples lives they simply stop eating and then die. I watched my mother in law die that way last summer I spent about 10 days at the hospital with her and she seemed peaceful, but I know she would rather have had the option of euthanasia. It was something we talked about quite a lot.

By all accounts it's a slow, but peaceful way to die.

Morphine can be administered if there are signs of discomfort.

refused a feeding tube, or any other life support. It took about 2 weeks with no food, and three days with no water. All in all, she went very easy. I have expressed my feelings to all members of my family about what to do if this happens to me. I also have a living will made out(as did my mother) with my wishes made clear.

That's their natural constituency!

DO flock together. They are the cruel types too, who would force someone to live long beyond the time when they can possibly ever feel better again. If I am ever in that situation, please pull the plug or de-insert the feeding tubes as quickly as possible. Unless I am in a coma and sqeezing the hell out of someone's hand to let them know, I'll make a full recovery, let me go. I cannot stand the thought of my family bickering over it.

She was a beautiful woman.

I'm sickened by the disgusting things that have been said about her husband by the vultures that her parents teamed up with.


Finally we read a news report that actually speaks of her husband's feelings and pain. He had the class not to parade in front of the camera unlike her parents.

it wasn't until media got involve and money was involed, thats when parents got involved... My personal opinion, her parents didn't give a shit about Terri until the money and media came into play and thats all they wanted... MONEY!!!

In the original court ruling the judge say's the enitre thing is over money. The Schindlers didnt get any.

treatment.

Why are they expected to know her desires? Especially since they admit they'd defy her wishes?

I hate to say it, but there is a wonderful thing coming out of this whole mess. The Republicans are showing their true colors and for the first time EVERYONE sees it. They are insane, and their blind fury trying to stick their nose in this will be their ultimate undoing. This is nothing new with them. It is so typical for them to say they are for state's rights (remember gay marriage?), but as soon as a state goes against their doctrine (Gavin Newsom), they try to pass federal laws and get the high courts and congress involved. Next they'll be introducing a constitutional amendment to prevent someone from ending their own life. These people are off the deep end, and everyone, even some hardcore republicans (but not neocon) are seeing their insanity. Thank you Terri, you will not die in vain, and you will have dignity in your death, despite these repugnant holier than though hypocrites.

in God's kingdome.

There is nothing in this life for Terri Schiavo. Let her pass on.

What's this crap about her starving to death? It's not starving, it's called dying. These repugs are f*cking IDIOTS and then some. I can' believe we have the Congress issuing a subpoena to a person who has been in a vegetative state for 15 years. This is F*CKING INSANE.

At least regarding my human family.

My heart goes out to EVERYONE in this.

What about the two cases in Houston this past week. Why is the government not intervening in these cases? The wife wanted the husband to be kept alive and the mother wanted the son to be kept alive, but Texas law allows the hospital/doctors to decide and the courts agreed with the hospital/doctors. Congress is setting a BAD precedence by interfering with the Schiavo case. Husband is the guardian. No one else should have a say in the matter. http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/topstory/3087387 and http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3079622

and sanctioning horrible acts under the guise of freedom. It's unbelievable to me that liberals are supporting the killing of an innocent person based on hearsay testimony that she would have wanted to die in her current situation. The fact that a judge accepted the hearsay testimony and ordered her death proves only that a judge can make mistakes -- and have no interest in preserving the rights of the severely disabled.

If the mentally and physically disabled can be euthanized, who will be next?

As Mouth magazine's bumper sticker says, "I support the right to die. You go first."

In other words, don't volunteer your disabled neighbors to die first, though of course that's been done before; in Nazi Germany the disabled were killed early on.

Those of you without disabilities don't understand this issue the way the disabled do. The media has told you that only right-wingers oppose starving Terri Schiavo but that's not true. The MSM has beeen ignoring press releases from disability rights groups, ignoring the seventeen disability rights groups that filed amicus briefs on Terri's behalf, ignoring the disabled people who have been involved in protests supporting Terri's life. The MSM has also ignored disability rights protests against Eastwood's cripple snuff film, M$B.

Here are a few quotes from Mary Johnson's article "The Scrines who Mistook the Crips for the Right":

"Religious opposition to assisted suicide is based on "sanctity of life" arguments. Disability rights opposition comes from an entirely different sensibility. The mostly-agnostic activists we know who oppose the "right to die" are steeped in progressive leftist causes. They read "death with dignity" laws as disparate impact legislation."

"The "right to die" may sound egalitarian; it may sound as though it's about nothing more than choice. In application, though, it applies only to people who are living disabled lives. And the disability rights movement continually returns to this central truth. "Since virtually all people who request hastened death have old or new disabilities, we're essential to the debate," wrote the late Barry Corbet, longtime editor New Mobility. Right to die, and death with dignity laws, Corbet wrote, "are about us."

"Many of our allies in the civil rights and health care movements have found this hard to understand. Isn't this about individual autonomy and rights, they ask?" says attorney Diane Coleman, founder of Not Dead Yet. "No, we say, it's about disability discrimination, a profit-oriented health care system, and a legal system that does not guarantee the equal protection of the law," she wrote in a 2000 article for the American Bar Association.

"The idea that people with disabilities are not worthy of society's acceptance or resources is not new," says Coleman. Actively helping someone end their life is illegal in every state. But laws permitting a doctor to provide lethal medication are being contemplated in California, Vermont, Hawaii and Arizona (such a law is in force only in Oregon.) Proponents insist safeguards exist.

Read the entire article here:

http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/mediacircus/scribesmistook0205.html

One single instance of anyone on DU advocating euthanasia of the mentally of physicall handicapped (i.e. people who still are still functional and not brain dead) because if such bullshit exists on DU it should be brought out into the spotlight and rejected.

Please, show us one post advocating this (i.e. not having a theoretical conversation or playing devil's advocate) Show me one person who isn't making some sort of sick dark humor joke who seriously advocates this position.

Also, your definition of hearsay is wrong. By your definition, no evidence from verbal communications outside the courtroom would ever be admissable.

"Johnny told me he was going to punch Steve" is not hearsay, just as "My wife told me she doesn't want to be kept alive on a feeding tube" is not hearsay.

"Johnny told me that Steve said he wanted to punch Joseph" IS hearsay. The judge did nothing wrong in admitting Michael's testimony.

I agree with you that few, if any, on DU are advocating euthanasia of "handicapped" people.

Instead, those who support Schiavo's death through starvation almost universally define her as not handicapped, but already dead. Problem solved.

A similar re-definition is commonly used in war. You need not treat your enemy with civility or humanity if you define your enemy as less-than-human. Problem solved.

Those with an understanding of where the brain registers pain (hint: it's in the very deepest, phylogenetically oldest structures - the ones that survived in Schiavo's brain) would never advocate letting someone spend two weeks in the slowly-building agony of starvation.

But then she's not someone, is she? Problem solved.

I respect that others have reached different conclusions. But if someone supports Schiavo's death, then they should support her death through a doctor-administered overdose of morphine, or something similarly humane. That, however, breeds the discomfort of admitting that we have begun to euthanize the disabled. Better to let her starve. Problem solved.

She doesn't care. Take out her feeding tube? She doesn't know. Keep her "alive" for another 15 years? She doesn't know. Keeping her alive is not torturing her. She doesn't know. Taking out her feeding tube is not torturing her. She doesn't know. Either way, it will not matter to Terri.

The issue is the right of the next of kin to make a decision on behalf of the patient that can no longer make decisions.

Meanwhile, FILL OUT A LIVING WILL. Make your wishes known. Because we are living in a time where next of kin can be challenged. My husband knows my wishes. Apparently, it's not enough.

A MAN carrying a sign which said, "MY Body, MY Choice. Keep Government out of MY Deathbed. Stop Faith Based Legislation" Ironic? Nope, not just women they want to control. EVERYBODY from birth to death.

Mrs. Schiavo's human brain, so elegantly created as a result of millions of years of evolution, is gone. She has liquid where her human brain, the cerebral cortex, should be. She has a working primitive brain, something she shares with many a non-human mammal. She is not severely disabled: she is gone, with no hope of cerebral recovery short of a miracle, and I personally do not think that keeping shells which were once human alive for another 20 years awaiting a miracle is at all rational or compassionate or particularly moral.

Having worked in the hospital field for a long time, I am absolutely adamant that physicians & ethicists tasked with making a determination of someone's state of being in a case such as this, do so in full recognition of the profound significance of what they have been tasked with. They are asked to do something that no one ever want to do and they carry it out with great professionalism. When these types of cases go to court, as they do every day of the year in the US, judges are equally aware of their responsibilities. Over and over, court appointed experts have returned the same sad answer: this woman's mind is hopelessly gone.The non-independent physicians disagreeing with this conclusion appear to be either people so mired in the 'right to life' movement that they have lost their professional independence, or they are in a word, quacks, who are trying to sell theories of care which they themselves admit have never shown any positive results. And many of them, according to the court transcripts, actually admit that her human brain is gone, but claim that something could be done to regrow it. A lot of quacks claimed laetrile could cure cancer; I don't know if a single claim was ever proved.

I am very disturbed about the sex-police attitude that some individuals are espousing in this case. This woman's husband lived with her parents for nearly a decade, actually putting forth a great deal of effort attempting to save her, until her brain deteriorated to the point of no return. There was no other woman in his life at that time. Those who say that he has lost his moral position on this case because he will not sacrifice the rest of his life sitting at the side of a shell which once contained his wife, are sanctimonious to the point of cruelty.It definitely also falls into the category of judging not lest you be judged.

Many opponents to the removal of her feeding tube indicate that they would be willing to take her off of respiratory support, because to them, an inability to breath would indicate that she was dead. There are a lot of physically disabled individuals who breath with a respirator, but who are cognitively alive and functioning, such as Stephen Hawkins. I assume Mr. Hawkins is also on a feeding tube, because his body is frozen by ALS. No one is suggesting that either of his life support mechanisms be turned off, because what makes him a human being is still functioning. I have not seen a single person on DU post that they thought Schiavo's tube should be removed because she is merely disabled. While people speak of the spousal rights, and the non-interference of government and other parties, at the same time they believe that her human brain is gone. Gone. The people posting in these threads demanding to know whether some DUer wants their brain-functioning disabled child's feeding tube removed have to know that no one is saying that. This is no slippery slope to the euthanasia of the disabled; that's an emotional red herring in this specific case. I can understand that being a philosophically legitimate concern, but this situation does not ring that bell AT ALL.


Right now, many nursing homes around the country have wards filled with elderly, unconcious, diapered or tubed for elimination, bed sore ridden, ventilator and feeding-tube dependent people, whose next of kin demanded that they be resuscitated and placed on life-support, after some physical event put them into at least a coma. My mother was in a nursing home for a year with such a ward down the hall from her. These people are not brain dead and in fact show higher brain activity unlike Mrs. Schiavo but they sit there frozen in time, until some organic disease catches up with them. Most get no visitors. They must be rushed to the hospital if there is any indication of treatable illness, then brought back to the nursing home and warehoused. They are alive and in this condition because modern medicine has learned far more about keeping our carcasses alive than healing our brains. This isn't natural. It's not suffering for God, as some seem to concern themselves with. It's a situation that no one would want to conciously be in. It's as disrespectful of our humanity as it gets. Those who disagree with this should pay a visit to a local nursing home and see what this 'life' is. This rush by hypocritical politicians to demand placement of life support measures (but who would deny food stamps to living poor people) will put even more people into this sad condition.

People have an emotional reaction to the feeding tube being removed since they think about how they would feel if starved to death. I believe that the evidence in this case is compelling that this woman will not be aware of any pain from this process, given her cognitive state. The answer here of course is that a more humane approach could be taken by giving her enough morphine to hasten the death of her body. My father finally died after 3 years of terminal liver cancer had wreaked havoc upon him. His last 3 weeks were spent in a hospital; he was in a coma for the last week. We were waiting for a major body organ to fail; his cardiovascular system was working fairly well and he could have lingered for a longer time. I'm confident that his physicians quietly helped him pass away by slowly increasing his morphine. This was a mitzvah on their part, not a sin. The reality is that a decent society should provide a painless death where requested by a concious individual where death is inevitable, or as in the case of Ms. Schiavo, has now already occurred. But that won't happen because of so-called conservative moralists aided by people with an irrational belief that the medical profession will suddenly transform itself into a death squad for inconvenient people. I'll repeat myself: forcing people to linger in pain against their own wishes is cruel. It's not suffering for God, as some seem to concern themselves with. It's a situation that no one would want to conciously be in. It's as disrespectful of our humanity as it gets.

4PM - Hastert and DeLay are calling the house into emergency session tomorrow (Sunday) to vote on a compromise bill.

Question: How many members are needed to pass a bill (quorum)?

I have not seen or heard any minister expressing support for either side. The minister(s) of the church that the parents or Terri are/were members.

Has anyone?