Vatican Calls for Keeping Schiavo Alive

Monday March 21, 2005 3:46 PM
By ALESSANDRA RIZZO

Associated Press Writer

VATICAN CITY (AP) - The Vatican newspaper on Monday criticized the removal of a feeding tube from a brain-damaged Florida woman, saying nobody can claim the right to decide whether a human being lives or dies.

``Who can, before God and humanity, pretend with impunity to claim such a right?'' L'Osservatore Romano said. ``Who - and on the basis of which criteria - can establish to whom the 'privilege' to live should be given?''

The remarks from the Vatican paper, which reflected earlier comments from several Vatican prelates, came after the U.S. Congress passed a law in an emergency session giving Terri Schiavo's parents the right to file suit in federal court over the withdrawal of nourishment and medical treatment needed to sustain their daughter. President Bush has signed the bill.

``Who can judge the dignity and sacredness of the life of a human being, made in the image and likeness of God? Who can decide to pull the plug as if we were talking about a broken or out of order household appliance?'' the paper said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4881459,00.html

A feeding tube is all that is keeping this woman from her spiritual home and peace. She has no cognitive abilities or any awareness of what is going on around her. Why would the Vatican want to keep her precious soul imprisoned in this artificial environment. There is nothing left for mortal life to offer her. Not even memories. They should Let her go.

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www.abstractappeal.com

My understanding is that when she came forward this thing had been in litigation for six years. She had an ax to grind against Michael Schiavo.

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is still vociferous.

Quality of life versus realistic expectations of care: who is responsible for the final say so.

All the judges all the doctors and the courts agree with her husband. It's time to let her go.

No verified links??

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What I find very odd about this whole thing is that some people claim that Terri Schiavo is not in a PVS. But even the most optimistic descriptions describe a terrible state of health. I can't imagine anyone wanting to live like that.

I think it's just shameful how many strangers have placed themselves into this family's private matter.

The family can not agree on what should be done.

Isn't the next of kin the one who should make those decisions? I would much rather have my wife make the decision than my parents. It affects her life the most.

The court has said repeatedly that she is PVS and to remove the tube.
Our congress should have nothing to do with it. It belongs in court.

are true. Some of the nurses have come forward stating that Mr.Shiavo asked "when is the bitch going to die?". And that they had to follow strict orders not to give her any extra care outside of the basics. He had received a settlement of several millions for her care and to date I am not sure what amount has been applied toward Terri's care. If I remember correctly it was shortly after the birth of Mr.Shiavo's second child when the statement by Mr. Shiavo was made. But like so much of the information out there, I can only say that several of the nurses did testify and outside of that I have no idea how accurate or diluted the information on the web or the newspapers is. I am not taking sides. Just stating what I have read and/or heard via the web and the press. So who knows? I certainly don't. This story has become more of a circus than a factual occurrence.

Or even one.

it was some time ago that I read about the nurses. But I will find some links for you when I can. But to be honest, I am not taking up the fight for either side. I think Terri should die in peace. And this crap has become exactly what I stated. A circus.


Here's One with some background info:

http://www.etherzone.com/2005/stan032105.shtml

Has some more detailed statements from the nurse. I will have to do some further research to find the rest. But like I said before in my previous statement, I am not taking sides. Just making a point that so much information has been put out there its ridiculous. So who knows....and like I also pointed out...I don't know everything. Just discussing what I have come across over time. Thats it.

One thing Wolfson never doubted was that for all their intense, mutual antagonism, both Michael Schiavo and Terri's parents love and adore her.

She was cared for incredibly well, Wolfson said. Her hair was always combed, and after 15 years of being incapacitated, she never developed a bedsore. In fact, Wolfson said until about seven years ago, Michael Schiavo had Terry's makeup and hair done regularly, and her clothes changed every day - to the point that hospice staff protested that he was being overly demanding about her care

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/nation/11175595.htm

Since it's supposedly a legal document, there ought to be no problem.

Now another, lets give it a rest shall we? I made some simple comments on what I read. I didn't claim that all was true in the email, only that I knew that several nurses had come forward with affidavits backing up some of what was in the email.

http://www.hospicepatients.org/richard-neubauer-md-05-01-affidavit-re-terri-schiavo.html


The above is an affidavit from a Physician who treated Terri. Since he is supposedly a physician, I am sure finding him won't be a problem. I would just like to say that I hope Terri can die with some peace. Not this "heres my two cents and I am right crap." Feeding tube or not. Courts or not. I hope she can die with some dignity and be free of being a poster child for any damn cause. Thats my take on it. Lets not be petty.

To help in your search for Doctor Neubauer's Affidavit: www.Google.com

Have a good day. I hope you find what you are looking for. :)

and on that basis thinks she's "viable." Does any self-respecting doctor do a diagnosis via video, rather than in person?

I have no idea. Do you know more than the doctor would not having seen the video yourself at the time? Do any and all opinions not agreeing with you or mine mean that they aren't valid? Or if we saw the same video would we all have the same opinion? If he is a doctor and we aren't medically educated could we know why and how he came to his conclusion? We as a society should ask questions. We should all have a voice. Does any damn conclusion from any source make our/her life or struggle any less or more important? Its up to you to make a stand and I respect that. The link was posted out of a request from a previous post. I for one don't care to take sides. Her life should be defined by what she was as a person. She was a daughter, a friend, a wife, and a PERSON. Not about her being a political whipping post. That is my final point about this.

based on a video?

For that matter does the doctor practice in the field of medicine pertaining to Terri's ailment?

and testify in the case?

Everyone had ample opportunity to submit testimony.

Au contraire, by posting this rumor, it is quite clear you have.

Like I stated before. I have read all sides of the story. Stating that is taking sides? I certainly didn't say I agreed or disagreed with anything. Geesh.

At least go look at the court documents.

This is one section of the official independent guardian reports.


Link

I fail to see where, in any part of my post, I implied that Mr. Shiavo had some ulterior motive. What I did ACTUALLY state in my post was that I don't know whats been spent on her care, so therefore, being that I don't want to spread inaccurate information, I stated that I didn't know. Which I dont. And I never claimed I did. Thanks.

placed in a trust fund. Expenses from that fund had to be approved by the judge. At most 40-50,000 remains.

the court depositions that would be part of the record.

ANYTHING that is repeated in RW sites should be considered suspect. Find out what information is verified and if anyone tries to blow it out of proportion then I wouldn't even bother considering any of the "documentation".

Check out the timeline from the time that Terri suffered her bulimia induced heart attack.

AbstractAppeal is a good source to check out.

the smear campaign against him is absurd and a red herring.

From an excellent blog on this case which is very clear about the author's neutral position on the case:

"Recently, Michael received an offer of $1 million, and perhaps a second offer of $10 million, to walk away from this case and permit Terri's parents to care for her. These offers, assuming there were two, were based on a misunderstanding of the situation here. Michael lacks the power to undo the court order determining Terri's wishes and requiring the removal of her feeding tube. He did not make the decision and cannot unmake it. The court made the decision on Terri's behalf. Nonetheless, Michael apparently rejected each offer."

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

This information can be found under the heading:
Is Michael really just looking for money?

This page is a truly great resource for those looking to find pure factual reporting on the case.

A state appointed guardian administers whatever may be left of her malpractice settlement. I believe the money must be gone because now WE taxpayers support her care because she is a Medicaid patient. If her husband didn't love her and want to carry out her wishes he would have divorced her years ago. The guardian took testimony which proved that she stated she didn't want to be on life support.

Right there is a red light that the information is false.

Have you seen the brain scans of the poor woman? Anyone with that much damage to the brain is incapable of these purported actions.

Basically she has no upper brain grey matter or white matter. She is left with only brain stem functions. Brain stem functions DO NOT include speaking, or reasoning.

This email you claim to have received is obviously an attempt to obfuscate the facts involved in this case. Do a little research and you'll see how ludicrous these claims are. This is either fabricated out of whole cloth, or, if truly sworn before a notary, it is perjury.

I find it truly sad that so many Americans have no scientific grounding and are so easily swayed by emotional appeals and superstition. No wonder our nation is devolving.

I'm confused.

Vatican is saying NOBODY can pull a plug. Not hospital staff, not Health Proxy's, NOT EVEN THE PERSON? You can't refuse treatment for yourself EITHER? Tie you down? FORCE you to have an operation you don't want? This is becoming a NIGHTMARE.

simple miracle. Where is their faith? Take her tube out and let God prove that he wants her to wake from the dead.

So sad that this institution has sold out to the Republican Party. I wonder what the BFEE has on the Pope? Where is their outrage with 100,000 Iraqi's being murdered while we steal their oil?

I agree with you OaItW. If they
believe, let God intercede, not Congress.

As far as I am concerned an organization that helps to hide pedophiles and is against the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS has absolutely no moral ground to make dictates about any situation. Especially one where they have no fucking clue!

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Anyway--YEAH, WHAT YOU SAID! "A gang of old men in dresses," as Jimmy Breslin (a TRUE Catholic) would say--and did! :toast:

:grr: :puke: :nuke:

to think about it.

But, thanks to the Opus Dei snakes slithering around the Vatican and putting words in the Pope's mouth, they're even doubting God's will by equating the permission of a natural death to take place with euthanasia.

I suggest the pope's spokesman re-read the Cathechism of the Catholic Church concering the difference between euthansia and allowing natural death:

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htm

Euthanasia

2276
Those whose lives are diminished or weakened deserve special respect. Sick or handicapped persons should be helped to lead lives as normal as possible.

2277
Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons. It is morally unacceptable.

Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded.

2278
Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of "over-zealous" treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one's inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected.

2279
Even if death is thought imminent, the ordinary care owed to a sick person cannot be legitimately interrupted. The use of painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the risk of shortening their days, can be morally in conformity with human dignity if death is not willed as either an end or a means, but only foreseen and tolerated as inevitable. Palliative care is a special form of disinterested charity. As such it should be encouraged.

It would seem to me that ventilators are no different than feeding tubes in terms of this latest pronouncement. Right now, hospitals in the US including Catholic ones, remove feeding tubes & ventilators when there is no hope of meaningful recovery, after review by ethics committees and consultation with next of kin. I hope that the Church is planning to build nursing homes around the country to warehouse these living dead until such time that one of their critical organs fails.

instead of citizens taxes. You would see the Vatican back pedal so fast if they had to cover the costs of their convictions.

to throw in their 2 cents worth on whether Terri should live or die??

itself. "nobody can claim the right to decide whether a human being lives or dies."

The very fact that she is being kept alive via the feeding tube was a decision made by a person or persons as is the decision to remove it.

I think all catholic churches should lose their tax free status now that the Vatican has increasingly inserted itself into the political process. They no longer stick to the global issues such as capital punishment, abortion, etc. but are now directly trying to interfere with a specific case within ONE country's political process and decision making.

I find it appalling and disgusting.

While the Vatican may think that God is the decision maker on Life or Death, I wonder why God created us with reproductive organs? Is it because he has granted us the right to make those decisions?

ergo the ban on contraceptives, etc. It's okay to cover up priests abusing children, etc, but only GOD decides everything else. The hypocrisy is breathtaking within the Vatican as it is with religious zealots within government.

The Vatican is nothing more than an autocratic government bureaucracy dictating it's terms and ignoring it's scandals. I am a FORMER or 'lapsed' Catholic for that reason.

then we know that the opposite side is the correct one.

<insert the sound of crickets chirping in this space>

While consistency combined with nonracism would call for CERTAIN PEOPLE to fight to keep Sun (Was that his name?) on life support, it's important to keep in mind that his condition was terminal. This isn't one of those conditions "most" people die from. This was one of those "all" people die from it, forms of dwarfism. Interestingly, there are two subtypes of the type that kid had. I couldn't find any article telling us which subtype he had. They are just called type 1 and type 2. I believe there HAVE been reports of type 1 infants living till the age of 5, but not type 2. 41 hospitals thought that wasn't going to happen in Sun's case though.

Anyway, people who think Terry is being killed by being removed from life support should have held a parallel view about Sun, but not necessarily vice versa.

(NOTE: I bring this up just for clarity. A "killing" is not necessarily a "murder." A "killing" might even be called for as in the case of selfdefense or perhaps assisted suicide etc. So I don't mean to imply that there is any implication of wrongdoing on the part of the hospital in your post.)

hey, i was wondering if your comment was in reference to the law passed while bush was governor that said if a family cannot afford topay the medical bills of babies that need life support, that they (the hospitals) will refuse them of it?
im sorry if that's completely wrong, but i had heard something about it , and was completely turned off.

Now I'm waiting for Paris Hilton's press secretary

has a cerebral cortex....

PS: I'm a Catholic (albeit raised Catholic, and I have not been practicing it for a long time, but my whole family is Catholic) and no one in my family thinks poor Terri Schiavo should be artificially kept alive. Every family member of mine has a living will too.

If Bush thinks this gets him the "Catholic Vote of Support", he's gravely mistaken....

droves and fewer men and women are entering the priesthood or becoming nuns.

Edited to add: I guess this position doesn't apply to the pope given someone decided to perform a tracheotomy to save the pope's life. If one were to adhere to what the Vatican is saying here, the pope's life or death should have been left in God's hands and God's hands alone.

"O'Malley's practice of washing only men's feet last year upset some Catholics, in part because it occurred just days after O'Malley, in a Holy Week homily, cited feminism as a social factor that makes it difficult for the church to reach baby boomers. He listed feminism alongside Woodstock, the drug culture, the sexual revolution, the breakdown of authority, and divorce".

O'Malley to wash women's feet in rite
Consults Vatican, changes policy
By Michael Paulson, Globe Staff | March 19, 2005

:wtf:

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You've got Bush, Delay, et al... and now you've got the Holy Ol' Poop throwing in his two cents... who's next to offer an expert opinion, Paris Hilton?
No insult intended here on poor Terri Schiavo... as I've said in other posts, what they're doing to her right now is practically the abuse of a corpse...
Doesn't the Church have ANYTHING better to do with its time? Coverups to manage? Children to rape?

"I used to be Catholic, but I found the perfect loophole: I gave it up for Lent."
D X Stone

Remember the criticism that he, as a Roman Catholic, would be taking his orders directly from the Vatican? Remember how many Americans feared that this country would be run by the Pope?

Well, I for one am glad THAT never happened! Now, where are those same critics and why isn't the same criticism being directed at His Royal Flatulence and his entourage of Dominionists?

I have no problem with that, as opposed to the lunatic fundie Christians who like to execute people and support war - both of which the Vatican also opposes.

received a tracheotomy, it would have been left in the hands of God to determine whether he recovered or not, right? As usual, there are those above the dictates of the Vatican as long as they are important enough in the hierarchy of the Vatican. Sound familiar?

I don't know where you're getting that. It's not like they're Christian Scientists or something like that.

the quote, take from the OP posted article is this:

"nobody can claim the right to decide whether a human being lives or dies."

SOMEONE made the decision whether the Pope should live or die by performing a tracheotomy therefore if the Vatican believes NOBODY can decide, why did they let someone decide when it came to the Pope's life or death?

Your interpretation would have all life saving medical techniques prohibited. That is not Catholic teaching, nor is it any mainline Christian teaching.

the point I was making is that the Vatican is talking out of both sides of it's mouth.

"VATICAN CITY (AP) - The Vatican newspaper on Monday criticized the removal of a feeding tube from a brain-damaged Florida woman, saying nobody can claim the right to decide whether a human being lives or dies.

``Who can, before God and humanity, pretend with impunity to claim such a right?'' L'Osservatore Romano said. ``Who - and on the basis of which criteria - can establish to whom the 'privilege' to live should be given?''

It is the 'human being lives or dies' that is the key section. If the Vatican had said 'nobody can claim the right to decide whether a human being dies' than I would have to say the Vatican was being consistent but, seeing as the quote says 'nobody can claim the right to decide whether a human being LIVES or DIES', it is then being hypocritical because someone made the decision for the Pope to live by doing a tracheotomy.



BTW, one CAN express their difference of opinion without being rude I believe.

'

nt

So, I guess what the Vatican is saying is that NO ONE, EVER should be removed from any type of life support devices because that would be man making life of death decisions for someone.

(no pun intended)

and took a stand against going to war with Iraq.

Hey, John? SHE'S GONE. If you believe she has a soul in that body, for the sake of the god I don't believe in, SET HER FREE!

Man. The Pope essentially calling for a woman's soul to remain locked in the hell of a body that will never regrow its brain. What an insane world we live in.

If anyone thinks he's sitting around reading US newspapers and telling his underlings his thoughts about this case, I have an autographed photo of Pope Joan to sell them.

Until the poor old man finally shuffles off his mortal coil, please assume that any pronouncements from the Vatican represent only the opinions of Vatican insiders, and are suspect as they're likely jockeying for position to be the next guy in a funny hat.

Shouldn't we leave it in "God's hands"?

By keeping her artificially alive it is we who are playing "God"

extrordinary lifes saving procedures. I understand their position on pulling the feeding tube. Pa. has a law that states once it's inserted, it cannot be removed. (I lived in Pa for 40+ years and had an Uncle who went through a similar situation). What you need to do there is think very hard before allowing the tube to begin with.

I really haven't heard the Catholic Church's position on using all the different tubes now available for prolonging life. I would think since they subscribe to letting life in God's hands, they would disagree with using artificial means of life support, but I haven't heard either way.

I will tell you that my living will and POA states NO ARTIFICIAL MEANS OF LIFE SUPPORT!

Keeping the damn tube IS deciding whether she lives or dies. If you remove the tube, and she dies...it's because NATURE is taking its course. That means GOD is taking Terri.

Fucking idiot.

Keeping vegetables alive: Yes
Punishing pedophiles: No
Staying silent on the Iraq war crimes: Yes
Getting into the 21st century on the family-planning front: No
Allowing women to be priests: No
Allowing priests to marry: No

Verdict: Continued irrelevance