No immediate court ruling in Schiavo case

Federal judge hears two hours of arguments on feeding tube
The Associated Press
Updated: 5:18 p.m. ET March 21, 2005

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Armed with a new law rushed through Congress over Congress over the weekend, the parents of Terri Schiavo pleaded with a judge Monday to order the brain-damaged woman’s feeding tube reinserted.

U.S. District Judge James Whittemore said after the two-hour hearing that he would not make an immediate ruling, and he gave no indication on when he might act on the request.

Monday marked Schiavo’s third day without the feeding tube.

David Gibbs II, attorney for the parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, said the judge had sent a message before the hearing saying he was reviewing the filings in the case.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7254897/

from cnn.com... details soon

there are so many options for the judge. More may be coming soon.

drag it out?

If he was, he would have already done it.

My bet is he's going to rule the law unconstitutional which means the solicitor general will have to appeal to the 11th circuit court of appeals.

"I think you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that you have a substantial likelihood" of the parents' lawsuit succeeding", the judge said.
The likelihood of success is one of the two crucial elements necessary to obtain a temporary restraining order.

You must show:
1 - Irreparable harm will occur if the restraining order is not granted. - That is obvious here. And

2 - That there is a likelihood you will succeed in the litigation itself.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20050321/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman&sid=84439559

In other words, "sure there will be irreparable harm, but you have no case

There should be no inference that the Congress can usurp judicial authority. Sets a bad precedent.

They always take the easy way out but this time they may consider themselves under attack so you could be right.

I'm not sure what party affiliation this judge has,but they usually are far less partisan just look a Cali and gay marriage ruling and regardless of party judges don't appreciate someone usurping their power and Congress is gonna get bitch slapped for this one.

...if Terri was allowed to die peacefully and Congress was bitch slapped.

Those thugs, so drunk on their own power, need to have their asses handed to them.

Either he'll rule on the merits or he'll grant the stay. Generally, the irreparable harm part of the test trumps the likelihood of success part. The fact that the judge didn't act suggests (hopefully) that he plans to dispose ofthe case on themerits, not merely on whether there should be an injunction. But I'm not counting chickens before they hatch either.

onenote

-Until the ruling is moot, I mean. Are they free to file at any other court if they think he's moving too slowly?

http://breakingnews.nypost.com/dynamic/fronts/HOME?SITE=NYNYP&SECTION=HOME

Mar 21, 5:48 PM EST

Judge Won't Issue Decision on Schiavo Yet

By VICKIE CHACHERE
Associated Press Writer




TAMPA, Fla. (AP) -



.....During the hearing, David Gibbs, an attorney for the parents, said that forcing Schiavo to die by starvation and dehydration would be "a mortal sin" under her Roman Catholic beliefs.


"It is a complete violation to her rights and to her religious liberty, to force her in a position of refusing nutrition," Gibbs told Whittemore.

But the judge told Gibbs that he was not completely sold on the argument. "I think you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that you have a substantial likelihood" of the parents' lawsuit succeeding, said Whittemore, nominated by former President Clinton in 1999.

George Felos, one of the attorneys for husband Michael Schiavo, told Whittemore that the case has been aired thoroughly in state courts and that forcing the 41-year-old severely brain damaged woman to endure another re-insertion of the tube would violate her civil rights.......

this case.

as I see the lawyers for the parents aguing. Anyone help me figure this out?

Saw some pics of priests in FL protesting

wasn't the judge approved by the majority?


:mad:

And I'll bet he is hugely pissed off. Dozens of judges have ruled consistently time and again that she is brain dead and should have the tube removed.

Now the political assholes jump in and use this poor woman's corpse as some grandstanding ploy to garner drama votes, and dump this decision on him WHILE she is starving.

If he doesn't rule or issue a stay order the tube back in, until she has expired, then the case is moot and he won't have to rule.

...I also think that this judge's lack of haste also speaks volumes.

Bush flew in from Texas, signed the bill in the middle of the night and then the judge sits on the case until late in the afternoon.

This judge probably is ticked that he's in this position, and ticked that Congress has put him in that position by violating the Constitution.

Really, Congress hurt this situation more than it helped. This narrow law, and the way they've usurped the Judicial Branch of the U.S. Government--violates the separation of powers.

yell it was a an activist liberal Clinton apointee, and if the judge rules to feed her again they win.

This came up at the Monday morning Starbucks discussion today (believe me, five people all drinking coffee in Utah are considered radicals!), and I opined,"So, what's the downside for the Republicans here? How does this affect anyone who would ever vote for them?"

Nobody could come up with an answer, and we had some pretty good thinkers there. All I could point out was that the idea of "marriage between a man and a woman, being the so-called bedrock of society" just got trashed. It will be interesting to bring that up in the gay marriage debate...

Anybody see a way that middle America punishes the Republicans for this, that we didn't figure?

with the GOP support of the gay marriage ban. I'd say its been about fifteen years since the Schiavos shared a marital bed, middle America might not be inclined to see this in the same light of telling couples what kind of sexual acts they can engage in.

Really, I'm looking for how this can be played in the next couple of elections. All Bush & Co. have done is make people a bit more uncomfortable about something that they're already very uncomfortable about. How can this be turned into something that looks like it could happen to anyone?

What is forgotten, is that many people have been through the experience of the slow death of a loved one (it doesn't always include a respirator or a feeding tube of course). And if they haven't been through it yet, they know they probably will be in the future. Basically, I think the Republicans forgot that this is a universal experience, and thus more difficult to turn into a wedge issue than abortion or same sex marriage.

bought time.

Now, it remains to be seen what will happen--will they try to go around him?

He chose not to rule on it immediately. That's what i understand from reading it all today.

I don't understand half of it.

...come out and accuse the judge of denying Terri five meals?

He accused Dems who held up the bill in the house of "denying Terri two meals, so far."

The man has no shame.

First there's the Ganon thing, now there's this. They try to save the girl's life, and then issue a subpoena, which is only delaying the process. This just pisses me off. I'm not the parents, and I'd still be clinging onto hope that science would reveal some kind of cure. But in my mind it's not going to happen. I can sympathize with both sides. I would hate to see my daughter like that though.

US District Court -Middle District of Florida

If not on main page go to NOTABLE CASES

Tuesday, March 22, 2005; Page A01
TAMPA, March 21 -- Terri Schiavo's parents, buoyed by a law that Congress worked through the night to pass and that President Bush rose from his bed to sign, pleaded with a federal judge here Monday to resume her tube-feeding before she dies.

Attorneys for Robert and Mary Schindler argued that allowing their brain-damaged daughter to die before the federal courts can review her case would violate Congress's will and lead to the "damnation of her soul" because it would conflict with her religious beliefs. Her husband's legal team countered that Congress trampled the Constitution by bending to "popular clamor" and ignoring a long string of judicial rulings in what they called one of the most extensively litigated cases in Florida history.

(snip)

Whittemore, who did not say when he will rule, was appointed by President Bill Clinton in 1999 and has heard high-profile cases involving the Outlaws motorcycle gang and Cuban baseball star Rolando Viera. The judge, 52, rocked back and forth in his black leather chair while directing the two-hour hearing, repeatedly pressing Gibbs to provide more legal evidence for his arguments -- especially claims that Schiavo's constitutional due-process rights were violated. At several critical junctures, Whittemore appeared skeptical that Gibbs could back his claims. The lawyer acknowledged he was unable to cite cases to support some of his arguments and pleaded for more time to conduct legal research, noting that he had dashed into court to file legal papers at 3 a.m. Monday.

"You'd be hard pressed to convince me," Whittemore said of Gibbs's contention that the due-process argument is convincing enough that there would be a strong likelihood of the Schindlers winning if the case went to trial. Whittemore, speaking to 17 lawyers and four tightly packed rows of spectators in his cramped courtroom, said the key to his decision will be his opinion on the likelihood that Gibbs could win a case that numerous Florida courts have rejected.

more…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53153-2005Mar21.html

they think if she dies it will lead to the damnation of her soul?

do they believe in anyway? These are not Christians by any means. Where is the God of love and mercy?

is removed. I'd love to know the sick, twisted thought process that led them to that conclusion.

Her parents are, in my world, as spiritual as the mosquito that was flitting about my lamp. I swatted it.

for then surely not one of us has spirit indeed."

They're just holding to a poorly developed set of ideals.

"But I cannot know for sure, for I am not them."

an evil spirit intent on passing on illness and pestilence.

"Attorneys for Robert and Mary Schindler argued that allowing their brain-damaged daughter to die before the federal courts can review her case would violate Congress's will and lead to the "damnation of her soul" because it would conflict with her religious beliefs."

I am sure that doesn't even make sense theologically, let alone legally. It is hard to believe they could even get a lawyer to say the words.

that suggests how bereft of substance their lawyer's arguments were.

I just can't see this damn thing going anywhere. Appeals, sure, but dismissed every step of the way. There's not a fucking issue here, not one legal issue at all.

By the way, their lawyers are whores. I mean, REAL whores.

Wait. I take that back. Whores are honest working girls.

They're just fucks.

but do some attorneys actually turn down payment or publicity if they do not believe in what they are being asked to say?

The question just occurred to me, again no disrespect intended.

That's what I see in the Schindlers' future.

Hell, I'd say that the argument of their counsel teeters on the edge of a Rule 11 violation.

an unbaptised 6 month old baby boy was removed from the feeding tube so I imagine these "people" are okay if his soul goes straight to hell.

Where were they when it came to fight for his soul?

Every position they take is pure unadulterated BS.

My only fear is that if this judge rules against the parents, the neocons will point their twisted little fingers at him and say the dems killed her. Truth and ethics never get in their way.

Under no possible interpretation of Catholic dogma can a person be held responsible for the acts of another. It is, however, regarded as a sin to commit suicide - by refusing to eat. Thus, they have yet again admitted that it's Terri Shiavo's wish that she not be kept on life support.

associated with refusing artificial life support.

Let God's will be done is what I was taught.

'Refusing to resume her tube-feeding would "jeopardize her eternal soul," Gibbs said.'

That's some wacky jurisprudence right there.

Removing the tube means eternal damnation for -her- soul?

You know what.. this sounds like a case of projection to me. If they believe that taking her life is murder, then it's the ones who remove the tube who are damned.

This whole thing is so crazy and twisted, it's like a mess of tangled knots caught in a whirlwind.

Sue

...an exorcist.

For THEM.

:evilgrin:

theory does this happen? Besides the quaint fact of what is this religious line doing in a federal court or any other court

it's almost too stupid to address. She's incapable of taking any action which kind of rules out sin of the normal variety. I guess a wingnut here or there would view the health professionals removing the tube as killers, but that's their own lunacy talking IMO.

I wonder if anyone ever determined that Ms. Schiavo was a member of a Catholic parish and a regular church attendee. I've never seen mention of that anywhere.

very happy.

"Attorneys for Robert and Mary Schindler argued that allowing their brain-damaged daughter to die before the federal courts can review her case would violate Congress's will and lead to the "damnation of her soul" because it would conflict with her religious beliefs."

HER religious beliefs? SHE'S DEAD. She doesn't have any religious beliefs. Her parents are what they call 'out of touch with reality'.
They're fundamentalist whack-jobs. This is just sick, IMO.

It doesn't sound like Judge Whittemore is going to be none too friendly to the idea of keeping this woman alive just to satisfy her parents' cult dogma, either.

(edit to add comments)

it is being denied. Our constitution says we have a right FROM religion. Tooooooo confusing for me.

presumably lead to her heart attach. I had wondered by she had a heart attach at that young age.

updated link here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1331424&mesg_id=1331424