Parents seek to give Terri Communion

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050326/D892V1Q00.html
Even in Freeperville they are seeing this as a way to overturn the judges ruling by saying that once they feed her anything, it vacates the judges order.
Snip
To: wagglebee
Denying her Communion is a violation of her First Amendment rights and that makes it a federal civil liberties case.
Once the Priest gives her the sacraments and she swallows the body of Christ and drinks of the Blood of Christ then the Starvation ruling and Greer's idiocy just went out the window.

I LIKE IT!!!!


Snip

then she chokes on it and dies. Oh well.

... the Catholic faith teaches that even a particle of the host contains the Real Presence of God. In theory, they could simply put a piece the size of a dot on her tongue and it would probably dissolve. Or, they could dissolve the particle in the Precious Blood (which is called "intinction") and swap her mouth with a q-tip.

None of this would harm her. But, there's the matter of the court order. Plus the fact that she was already given Extreme Unction, which makes this extra sacrament unnecessary to her spiritual health. The parents need to let this go.

If she hasn't conscented to communion, it cannot be given to her.

Per hubby's Basic Catechism book:

WHAT IS VIATICUM?

Viaticum is Communion given to a person in danger of death. IT SHOULD BE GIVEN WHEN THE SICK IS FULLY CONSCIOUS

"All, even children who have reached the age of reason (Decr., "Quam singulari", præscriptio VIII, 8 Aug., 1910), are bound by Divine precept to receive the Viaticum when they are in danger of death, according to the opinion of theologians and the rule of the Church; though it is disputed whether one who is now in danger of death and who has within the last few days received Holy Communion is so bound by Divine precept. The obligation in the latter case is not clear, as the previous Communion in all probability satisfies the Divine law (Slater II, v, 1; Lehmkuhl, II, n. 146). St. Liguori says that according to the more probable opinion the obligation exists (VI, n. 285, dub. 2, sec. sent.). If a person becomes dangerously ill on the day on which he received Holy Communion out of devotion, it is disputed whether he may, or is bound to, receive it as Viaticum (Slater and Lehmkuhl, ibid.). Benedict XIV (De syn. dioec., VII, xi, n. 2) leaves the decision of this question to the prudent discretion of the priest, but St. Liguori (ibid., tertia sent.) thinks that the sick person is bound to receive it if the danger comes from an external cause, but not if he were already ill or if the danger already existed in some internal though unknown cause, as might be presumed in case of sudden illness, e.g. apoplexy and the like. Viaticum, like Holy Communion, out of devotion, may not be given to persons who are insane and who have never had the use of reason (Rit. Rom., Tit. IV, n. 10). To persons labouring under insanity from fever or other causes and at the time incapable of sentiments of piety, Communion cannot be administered; if, however before they became insane they evinced pious and religious sentiments and led a good life and it is apprehended that they will not recover their reason until they are dying, Viaticum may be administered to them in their delirium provided there be no danger of irreverence (Catech. of Council of Trent, II, vi, n. 64). It should not be administered when there is danger of irreverence to the sacrament from incessant coughing, difficulty of breathing or swallowing, and frequent vomiting. In all these cases, a little food or drink may be given first, to try whether the person can receive without danger of rejecting the Sacred Host. The same may be done in case of delirium also. Many recommend the trial to be made with an unconsecrated particle (O'Kane, "On the Rubrics" n. 782). Public sinners ("Publici usurarii, concubinarii, notorie criminosi, nominatim excommunicati aut denuntiati"-Rit. Rom., Tit. IV, cap. iv, n. 1) are not allowed to receive Viaticum until they have repaired, as far as circumstances will permit (the confessor must decide in each case the nature and extent of this obligation), the injuries and scandals of which they have been the cause. "

... "It should not be administered when there is danger of irreverence to the sacrament from incessant coughing, difficulty of breathing or swallowing,..."

Having already received last rites, I think most priests would have to agree that the circumstances wouldn't warrant communion (unless directed to do so by papal order).

Nevertheless, this seems yet another last ditch effort to stop the process. That, in itself, should give a priest pause--using communion as a legal tactic to overturn or defy a legal court order might be construed as irreverence to the sacrament, too.

Pretty sad, all in all, though.

... only a particle would need to be administered... and it could literally be a dust speckle sized piece.

Anyway, having watched the Brother during the latest press conf, it sounds like it was indeed a ploy. They asked for permission for the sacraments with full knowledge that it would be denied... which would open up another loophole... Jeb being able to intervene on the basis of a civil rights violation.

... but still think that the liturgical arguments will be as tangled as the legal ones, especially if there's an attempt to intertwine the two, as seems to be the case right now.

Ah, well, ugly business all around, and made more so by people in and out of government trying to capitalize upon it. *sigh*

Can she be given Communion (assuming it won't kill her) after she's received the Last Rites? Kinda defeats the idea of "last" rites, I think. Any knowledgeable Catholics on the board that can shed light on this?

but for anyone who is seriously ill, whether it be physical, spiritual, or mental illness.

I had no idea the sacrament was so inclusive.

renamed the sacrament "Anointing of the Sick". There used to be a lot of doctrinal confusion about what was to be done with those given Last Rites who then proceeded to not die. During certain periods in history such people were after that denied communion, etc., and there was some debate as to whether or not they could continue to take a hand in earthly matters. Vatican II clarified (some might say altered) the purpose of the sacrament so that this was no longer a concern, and so that people might legitimately receive the sacrament multiple times. For more information, http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Sacraments/Anointing.asp

that's very informative, precisely what I wanted. . . more so, in fact, but all of it of interest.

And welcome, too, as you Begin on DU.

Thanks :-)

A big hello and welcome to DU. Glad you're here.:hi:

When Michael and the hospice care givers see the signs that her death is imminent, she will be given Communion and the Last Rites will be administered, one last time. The hospice chaplain will do it.

Mrs. Schiavo was given Communion via the feeding tube BEFORE it was removed.

The parents know that, and are jerking everybody around.

Just another pathetic grab at more attention, more pity, more opportunities to smear Michael Schiavo.

dp

okay, i see that's already been done.

Terri chokes (gets it caught in her windpipe, etc) and her folks get charged for her murder.

And since the body has been in a state of grace for weeks, and the mind for years, this is just sick. The priest should put his foot down and say enough, already, but the Church is too busy watching the Pope die to worry about anything else.

that not being able to swallow means you can't swallow.

Welcome KennedyGuy

But I don't believe the First Amendment has ever been used to allow one person to force another to take communion.

if they give her communion, and since she's unable to swallow (meaning her swallow reflex AND gag reflex are totally non-existent), she aspirates the wafer/wine and asphyxiates...are they willing to be held accountable for her murder?

Because anyone with even a cursory knowlege of human physiology knows that when you aspirate something (goes into windpipe instead of down throat), you either die immediately from suffocation, or you die from complications of aspiration pneumonia.

"Please...help our daughter live" indeed, Ms. Schindler.

and eat his body and return to the land of the living.

dons some rollerskates and does a triple backflip down the halls of hospice

what that will do for the righties? (I am sorry)Because of the timing the poor woman is already becoming a martyr for them. What a bunch of sickos to turn this into a circus!

and reading the stories of family members of other hospice patients who have to walk by signs that say MURDERER and KILLER...how absolutely disgusting.

These people in NO way represent the life that Christ led. NO way in hell would Jesus have suggest that hundreds of people line up outside a place of solace and comfort for the dying and protest. Be full of hatred.

What ever happened to that whole thing about judge not....love your neighbor..all that good shit>

And consciously consenting to take holy communion????

Unlike last rites which I notice they are not asking for?

to Terri in the hospice, and poured water in her mouth.. this would all be over because she would choke and drown! These stories and ideas are based on misinformation.. which should surprise no one, seeing as how a freeper quote is being used. Get facts.. go talk to your community.. we all need to reach out the real world around us and help fill the truth void we are in. 4th estate is dead, the MSM is infotainment and practically useless for real information. Worse still is the massive propaganda effort underway in this country, and we are the resistors! .. so .. if you didn't know this already.. welcome to the resistance!

...the surgical opening in Terri's abdomen? She can't swallow and pouring wine into her mouth will gag her and she'll suffocate. That would possibly be homicide by the priest and conspiracy to murder by those who requested the communion be administered since they know the consequences. She can be given last rights I'm sure.

I may be a "collapsed Catholic" (my own phrase for it) but I still remember my parochial school training.

To receive Communion someone must at least be able to know that it is Communion, understanding that it is the presence of Christ, and must choose to receive it. If those conditions are not clearly present, Communion is not to be administered.

Children and adults who have not been instructed, as well as the unconscious, the insane, and unbelievers, are unable to examine themselves. They cannot, therefore, receive Holy Communion.

This is outside of the medical issues why this would be an ridiculous thing to attempt.

pg 99
HOW SHOULD A PERSON RECEIVE THE EUCHARIST?

a person should receive the Eucharist with faith, reverence, and love.

We shouw our faith by answering "amen" after the preist, deacon, or lay minister has said "The body of Christ". We show our reverenc by the respectful way we receive communion

We show our love by talking silently with Jesus after we have received Him, and by carrying His love into our daily actions

WHAT IS A VIATICUM?

Viaticum is Communion given to a person in danger of death. IT SHOULD BE GIVEN WHEN THE SICK ARE FULLY CONSCIOUS (emphasis mine)
---

So, based on the Catechism, Ms. Schiavo cannot receive communion because

1) she can't say Amen
2) She can't talk Silently with Jesus
3) SHE IS NOT FULLY CONSCIOUS

drink could kill her outright! There are procedures, at least in other churches to give communion withoue actually administering any solids or liquids. If that is what is being considered, it will give some comfort to the parents. If they try to put something down her throat, she could choke to death.

God forgive me if I am wrong.......

they force the wafer/wine in and she chokes and dies...either immediately or from infection

they'll tell themselves it was "god's will", the nutcases will go home, and the other families can see their dying loved ones in peace...


..and we can go back to unimportant matters like illegal wars, illegal Presidents, unconstitutional laws like the Patriot Act, a bad economy,
people being held in INS detention centers w/o due process,war crimes,piss poor health care system,anorexic dollar..and so on and so forth...

...she doesn't need the tube reinserted. She can just have somebody pour Ensure into her mouth at regular intervals.

Right?

specially designed casket that gives her water and nutrition at regular intervals. Depends(tm) would handle the other end. Then they could dig her up two days later, and depending on the mood of the country they could say she'd clawed her way out or they could keep her alive forever in an undisclosed location - kinda like Dick Cheney.

/evil maniac

You're bad! and that's a good thing!

She comes out.

Sees her shadow.

Runs back inside.

Six more weeks of winter.

Right?

She appears out of nowhere, she walks the blessed Earth, she IS God's Child, she walks on water, she springs out of her casket like Uma Thurman in Kill Bill Part II, and knuckles her way out of her dirt box.

When the long-haired dude came back and tried that "walking on water" thing, he sank.

Those holes in his feet, you know ..............

and I'm a guy that likes to think he always thinks of everything

Well, there's always a bigger Jesus Fish :7

The order is for tube feedings to be discontinued, not to starve her to death.
There is a big difference. If Terri could chew and swallow, this would not be an issue.

give Communion to a person who couldn't swallow. When the priest came to administer the last rites to my father he did not give him communion because he was unable to swallow. I pray that it will be over soon for this poor woman. What a nightmare this has been.

I heard that the hospice clergy would do any rites and they would allow the priest to be present.

Last Rites is the sacrament of the dying. Actually, anybody who is gravely ill can get Last Rites. I was told they gave it to me when I was in a coma for 24 hours. They certainly wouldn't have been able to give me communion too in a coma. Communion is optional depending on the condition of the person. As somebody said, they will give Last Rites to a dead person and they certainly won't be taking Communion either. So if the parents are upset that she is being denied Communion, it is well, bs, and play for sympathy.

grandmother...but and I emphasize that BUT all he did was dip his finger in the chalice and rub her lips with it. I believe went through the body part and either touched her lips with the communion wafer or just went through the motions. I can't remember. I could not watch and I'm not sure any of my other family members could see through their tears at that moment either. We had just made the decision to bring her home to die.

Priests do know how do do this. They've been doing it for 200 years now and MANY of their parishioners have died this way. I can't believe there is so much controversy over this issue! It is so ridiculous and morbid and WRONG to spend so much time obsessing over what the latest group of nut cases are whining about!

I have to admit, I am drawn to every one of these stories just to see what they will do next.

Terri is close now. I hope her her death brings a little peace and quiet back to this nation before the next crazy event!

I am getting tired of reading and witnessing the backward Christianity movement in this country. Schizos case has seemingly pushed the entire lot of them back to the dark ages! I expect to see them taking to the streets on horseback and dressed crusader style smocks, burning and pillaging "villages" and throwing all of us into the dungeons any moment now!

Her empty shell doesn't get the significance, so what's the point? She's already had last rites and it isn't as if wafers have a sell by date and must be ingested within hours of deasth or something.

This whole case would've gone so much faster if her parents actually paid attention to the teachings of the church instead of being dumbasses who want to assert thier own interpretations and daydreams about the RCC's teachings on thier daughter.

a "spiritual communion" can be made. TS Freepers. Learn your Catholicism before you abuse it!They also miss used "mortal sin". I think the Schindlers and their lawyers are disgusting people. Now they are willing to blaspheme and prostitute their religion to make their point. They also had no problem having the lawyer and Terri's sister perjure themselves. They are SICK!

and that the sacriments were delivered via the tube in her abdomen. Mr. shiavo (sp?) attorney explained this earlier today on CNN it was all done according to the courts instructions.

rights? (and good TV in the meantime)

serves me right, you give last rites to a dying person. Sheesh this is /has gotten way ridiculous.

Michael's lawyer, and I could have sworn he said she was given last rites and communion before the tube was pulled? I remember thinking they must've mooshed up the little wafer in water and sent it through her tube.

SHE CANT SWALLOW

after he was dead. He had a heart attack at home and the para medics couldn't save him. Someone called the priest. He got there after he found the person whose car was blocking the rectory garage.

If it makes the parents feel better, let it happen. I can't see much point in deny it.

Mz Pip
:dem:

or did they just anoint him and do the holy water blessing as they did with my father because he was unable to swallow.

what they did. I think it was just Last Rights. It was kind of ironic since he hadn't been to church in years. He wasn't a practicing Catholic by any stretch of the imagination.


Mz Pip
:dem:

she can't swallow. That's why she was fed by a tube. Are they planning on choking her with the Communion?

placed into the feeding tube for it to count.

Her husband made sure that it was done precisely that way.

The Schindlers are just doing whatever they can to get more attention.

For the comfort of all Catholics to whom this matters, Mrs. Schiavo will die in a State Of Grace.

made more sense then...

So she didn't take the host into her mouth?

That would be futile, since her ability to swallow is gone, and she'd simply have choked.

... I think it would be a worthwhile gesture on Michael Schiavo's part to allow her to have holy communion if her parents wish it so. Yeah, he may have the right to say now, but is that a good idea. Letting it happen would go a long way to dispel some of the character bashing that has been done to him.

He has won the battle, and Terri will pass away. (Which I think is ultimately for the best)

Allowing her to have communion.. just a tiny speck, and maybe a drop of the wine from an eyedropper would suffice. It would go a long way to help her parents who are really hurting right now.

If nothing else, other than that, it's a good idea.

Heyo

They are HOPING she will choke.
If she chokes, then EMS will be called and they will start an IV because that is protocol.
Thus she will be rehydrated.

They are a relatively new sect, based in Idaho.

This was made clear at the time. George Felos said today that she will be given Last Rites by a priest in hospice when she dies.

If there is a transcript on CNN, that should have it.

...the wafer through the tube until it finally reaches her stomach and

POOF !

Heeeeere's Jesus!
:9
If only God were smarter and had more powers and could reach this lady without having to be eaten and drunk. {sigh...}

Ha. Ha. Ha.

Making lame "jokes" about the Eucharist, the central part of the Catholic liturgy. You're just a bundle of laughs, not to mention a beacon of tolerance and acceptance.

for some of our colleagues?

It is truly sad and pathetic that this sort of thing is done with barely a whisper of disapproval.

What was that thing that the polls showed after Election 2004? Something about the Democrats losing ground among Catholics and Jews...

The fact that the snarky remarks about the Body and Blood of Christ come on Easter Sunday is an especially nice touch.

Wake up, folks, we aren't going to get past the "Values Thing" when people's deep-rooted religious and spiritual beliefs are used as fodder for cheap attacks. When you make snippy remarks about Terri Schiavo receiving the Eucharist, you are using religion as a political cudgel, and you lower yourself to the level of cynical nitwits like Tom DeLay and Randall Terry.

Grow up and knock it off!

Since you obviously have no sense of humor at all--especially about something as absurd as giving communion through a feeding tube to a woman who hasn't been sentient in 13 years--perhaps you will equally despise MIT Math Professor Tom Leher's classic:

The Vatican Rag

First you get down on your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!

Do whatever steps you want if
You have cleared them with the Pontiff.
Everybody say his own
Kyrie eleison,
Doin' the Vatican Rag.

Get in line in that processional,
Step into that small confessional.
There the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original.
If it is, try playin' it safer,
Drink the wine and chew the wafer,
Two, four, six, eight,
Time to transubstantiate!

So get down upon your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!

Make a cross on your abdomen,
When in Rome do like a Roman;
Ave Maria,
Gee, it's good to see ya.
Gettin' ecstatic an' sorta dramatic an'
Doin' the Vatican Rag!

"this would end the stay...!" Huh?

I think the person is thinking of a protection order, whereby if a person (who has the protection order) willingly sees the other person, some judges will rule the inititial order null. That is the only situation that I (not a lawyer) am familiar with to which this freeper could be refering...

Either that poster is an idiot - or I am missing something.

I heard the report on CNN that her parents asked that ash be allowed to receive communion. My question is HOW? I keep hearing that all Terri can swallow is her own saliva, andthing else would cause her to choke to death. I've been a Catholic all my life, and as far as I know, you couldn't administer Communion through the feeding tube. I believe it would be considered sacriligious as you would have to disolve the host in something.

Has anyone heard how they could possibly accomidate this request?

They did administer Communion to Terri today by placing a small drop of wine on her lips...no host was used.

There was an earlier thread discussing Terri's parents requesting Communion: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1344503



story: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050328/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_7

just in 7 mins ago... sorry couldn't resist...

I think M.S. did the "right" thing, both politically and "religiously".

Politically: He's taken away the radical's argument that the horrible man wouldn't even allow her to have communion on this "holist" of days.

Religiously: She *is* a Catholic, and as I understand it, communion on "high holy days" is important.

So -- it was the SMART .. and right .. thing to do.

I also think it was the right thing to do.

... but changed his mind for today.

I think he should have let it happen on Friday (but understand the pressure he was under) -- and think, as stated, that it was the SMART - and RIGHT thing to do today.

Sheesh. This is humiliating. I have never seen anyone cheer at Communion.

if not, why not?

He told me have gave last rites quite often to people who were not able to swallow. Basically, he touched the Host to their mouth and then took it away to be disposed of properly. A lot of people who receive Last Rites can't swallow.

complete story: http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=327962005

Seriously, where is the sanctity of marriage?

an autopsy that may show that she was physically abused. I cannot think of anything more cruel than the claim of this man that it was Terri's wishes (sounds familiar?) to be cremated and to be buried in Pennsylvania.

:eyes:

I'm so sick of this. If you are so damn convinced that he abused her before her collapse, why don't you and all the other people smearing him organize a thorough investigation of him. It can be done. Or would you rather engage in innuendo and baseless character smears?

Geez, it wouldn't occur to anyone that she said she wanted to be cremated, right?

And btw, bodies CAN be autopsied before cremation, it happens all the damn time.

immediately after Terri dies.

Schiavo's attorney said yesterday that his client will obey the court order about the cremation, he failed to mention that the court order was in response to a motion by Michael Schiavo to have Terri cremated.

There is a lot of mendacity on both sides, and there is an innocent woman being starved and dehydrated to death, all of it under the color of law!

process that would have occurred if the feeding tube had never been place...

It just ain't polite.

Don

Mr. Schiavo need to educate themselves.

so bizarre to you? As for Mr. Schiavo, I think you need to find some real sources; this man has done nothing wrong IMO.

But her "saintly" husband now claims that she asked to be cremated and for her ashes to be interred in Pennsylvania. That same "saintly" husband presented a motion to Judge Greer requesting just that, and Judge Greer issued an order granting that motion.

Now for all of you that are convinced that Saint Michael is following Terri's expressed desire to be disconnected from any form of life support, how can you explain this remarkable claim by the "loyal" husband that Terri also wanted to be cremated and her ashes to be buried in another state?

Do we have a suspension of disbelief in here?

Edited to add: LINK?

This "belief in Michael" mantra is quite a suspension in disbelief!

It was my parents decision.

I didn't have a problem with it nor did my other sisters with that decision.

If she had specified a specific means of burial in a will or other legal document then it should be honored unless it is illegal.

In this case spouse has the say unless the state has belief that there is foul play involved or other reasons stated in state law.

are you buying into the misinformation the extreme right has been drooling all over the airwaves? There is credible information--court transcripts--that can be read online.

If there was abuse, then the hospice staff would have to be covering it up, along with Michael Schaivo. So would the police have to be, if you're to believe the incredible stories the nurse keeps trying to peddle. Do you truly believe they put their heads together and kept serious abuse hidden?

If I hadn't seen your posts here for a very long time I would be wondering if you had dropped in from Freeper Neverland because you've become as unreasonably emotional as they. I don't recall seeing you post such wild accusations before this. Perhaps I've missed something.


edited to correct spelling

was only as an adult that she moved to Florida, after her marriage. Why wouldn't it be appropriate for her to return to where she spent most of her life?

and he went to the trouble of motioning Judge Greer to issue such an order. We are being asked to believe that Terri told Michael, his brother, and his brother's wife that she wanted to be unplugged. Now we are being asked to also believe that Terri told Michael that she wanted to be cremated and her ashes buried in another state.

We are being asked to believe a lot!

I mean, really, how many wives tell their husbands that they would not like to be maintained as vegetables?? UN-FRIKKIN-BELIEVABLE!!!

and it is also SOOO hard to believe that a wife might mention that if she were to die she'd just as soon be cremated. there are valid reasons for doing so, you know.

sounds like you need to head down to Pinellas Park and join the rest of the sanctimonious buttinskis who seem to know better than her own husband what kind of care and final disposition of her body she would want or would be appropriate. I take it you were one of her best friends? :eyes:

but it's damn near impossible. I think perhaps you might want to look into a little background on this. Her "hubby" for years went to great extents to help his wife. Probably above and beyond the call of duty, or at least more than many people would have done. So many people are left in nursing homes and visited once a week if they're lucky. He visted daily, and still does I believe.

He annoyed the hell out of nurses and caretakers if he felt they weren't taking proper care of her. She never had any bedsores, mainly due to his daily visits. You really should read up on how much he has done, first to try and get her better, and then, after he accepted that she wasn't going to get better, STILL visiting everyday, turning her, etc. He went to nursing school or something similar to learn how to best take care of the woman. Before you condemn a man, you really should read a bit of the background here. It's easy to find. I really don't think it has been a picnic for him.

After recently reading about the lengths Mr. Shiavo had gone to to help and care for his wife, I was quite touched. I don't know if I would be capable of doing as much. I believe he has proven, at least to the courts, that he wants what is best for her. If he hadn't, he would not have won EVERY court case. Perhaps he hasn't proven it to you, but he doesn't have to. It's not Your business, and it's not My business.

So that part of it hardly seems remarkable.

Didn't think so at first but with all the data and she said/he said from the last couple weeks; watching how the families interact...NO WAY, that guy is a cold blooded snake.

Reminds me of my former narcissistic son n law; all charming and docile to one group of people; mean, contemptable, and egomaniacal as catshit behind closed doors. Fiercly unable to EVER concede a defeat,. I won't go into it but this whole thing with "Prince MS" just "smacks".

Sounds exactly like the Schindlers.

*

considered for libel/slander action on behalf of Michael Shiavo.

which is what will happen if there is a federal civil claim, which is what will happen when there is a diversity of citizenship among defendants.

courts, where all the evidence has been presented, but obviously SOME PEOPLE who have never seen the documentation think THEY know better and want to OVERTURN the courts' (that's a plural possessive) determinations.


JHFC




Tansy Gold

Again more unfounded and unproven accusations being thrown around even though there has been thread after thread and link after link showing these allegations have been repeatedly investigated and disproved.
The simple minded and repeated refusal to look at the truth of this situation proves that certain minds are mired in certain ways of thinking regardless of the truth. Some people are hopeless.

If there were signs of abuse don't you think they would have been found at some point during the thousands of tests this woman must have gone through the last 15 years?

:eyes:

it was litigated and he was found innocent.

after stealing my daughter's children and keeping them from her and the rest of our side of the family. We gave eye witness testimony that he was an abuser, a cheater on my daughter, a liar and had a history of drunkeness (where immigrants died by his drunken driving}...guess what? His BROTHER is on the police force! Daughter was freaked out and had to run from the house, he held the kids back from her.

He never broke her bones, he never put her into the hospital..his machinations were mental, emotional intimidation. The religious, male dominated court, in this case, favored the abuser.

We send the kids gifts..he throws them into the garbage. He remarried about two months after dumping my daughter. His new wife hates our grandchildren but calls them "HERS". She is the mommy already. My daughter was just a surrogate for his seed, the son in law says.

He gets to court with hat in hand and butter wouldn't melt in his mouth.

:(

personal situation/tragedy with your son-in-law, but I think your transfering your feeling of him on to Michael Schiavo....I don't believe there is any comparison and I'm sorry that you and your daughter and grandchildren have had such an abuser in your family, but I really think that to say that Michael Schiavo is the same way is just plain wrong.

If I didn't respect your posts so much, I wouldn't actually have bothered to respond to this one. But what is interesting is that when I read your first response about him, my first reaction other than "huh? why would Sugarbleus who is a very rational person say this, the second thought I had is - there must be some personal stuff going on for you here"....Sure enough - about six postings down, I saw your story about your son-in-law....

I just think that before you buy into the right wing garbage about Michael Schiavo, you should familiarize yourself with the entire case, the entire court documents and testimony and know the great lengths this man has gone through for his wife over the last 15 years and know that not one single court ever found any of these so-called "allegations of abuse" to be credible. In fact, the Judge specifically has called some of the allegations "incredible"....meaning they are too fabricated to even be believable...

:hi:

But call me intuitive, whatever. I have a gut feeling about some things. Haven't you ever done/felt that?

But mostly what I'm concerned about is disability rights and the stigma (apparent "phobia" maybe is a better word) about becoming disabled. I'm worried and disturbed about the language used by so-called progressives towards those with serious disabilities: Vegetables, house plants, "lives not worth living", such as that. It smacks of Hitleresque cleansing. It's very scary to us.

I have a disability, not as severe as Ms Schiavo but painful and limiting. My husband is also physically disabled--25 years from a head injury. His symptoms are stroke like. We've had a devil of a time getting adequate care in recent years. Perhaps the establishment is just tired of dealing with him?

Pach, I don't look at this as a religious right wing issue. I look at it as a human rights issue...disabled human rights; an issue that should stand on it's own merits. Believe me, it's very awkward to be associated with the hard right that I'm in otherwise total disagreement.

In the absence of a medical directive, with such a young couple who weren't married all that long...and with a family who still sees "value" in their daughter's life, I prefer to give the vote to the woman's family. Let Mr. Schiavo go on and enjoy his life with his new family. As a mother, a grandmother, a caregiver to a disabled person, a person who champions the civil moral and ethical rights of disabled (and poor) people everywhere..I could not, in good conscience vote to end Ms Schiavo's life. She was just too alive in my opinion to be allowed to starve to death.

Thank you for your respectful and gentle reply.

Very best to you...

If she had been abused, there would have been some kind of marks on her. If there was a shred of evidence of that, the hospital the Michael Schiavo sued over their misdiagnosis of his wife would have pounced on it during the discovery phase.

Also, it's been noted that Terri Schiavo never had a bedsore and that was due to her husband's vigilance in demanding excellent care for his wife. Christopher Reeve, who had access to the best care money could buy, was done in by a bedsore. Michael Schiavo studied nursing to learn to care for his wife.

After ALL these years of being tube fed, and now the ensuing stoppage of the ARTIFICIAL feedings...there WILL be organ damage.
What exactly do you want them to find?
As far as taking her to his family plot?
He knows her family will make a theme park right next to Disney World and charge admission to see her.
I applaud that he is taking her to a private place where she can rest in peace.

The facts belie what you are saying and they will continue to do so no matter how many times you post this smear.

Judge would have no say in refusing an autopsy.

avoid the parents suing to have her exhumed after burial, and also to keep the religious nuts from digging her up on their own or trampling all over her grave.
This way he can be at peace God bless him. I only hope my family respects my wishes like he has hers.

By the way, a broken leg and broken back such as alleged, would hardly be missed by any doctor and would have been put into the medical records. It's a bunch of bull hockey.

stating she just received communion?

sue the nuts off half this idiot country. I would prefer cremation and he is her husband. He has the RIGHT to do things for her.

If they give her the host and the wine they can say that she can swallow and then back to court. She had the last communion given to her 10 days ago through her feeding tube. There is a priest available should she slip further into death. He can give her the last rites. You would think if the Schindlers were really concerned they would be sitting by her bed and praying, singing and telling her stories so that she can go in peace. She will be ashamed when her release from this earth comes and she walks into the arms of her savior. Those right wing jerks should have their souls burn in hell.

She was given a drop of wine, but no wafer.

Her mouth was too dry and she couldn't have swallowed it anyway.

either the Host (wafer) or the Wine (blood) with the Priest taking the other part is acceptable. In a standard Catholic Communion the people partake of the Host and the Priest the Wine. I have been to a number of RC weddings and funerals, and in the Weddings the newlyweds partake of both, but the congregation partakes of just the Host. Having been raised in the Anglican Tradition (before I left the faith - Anglicans and Episcopalians partake of both) I saw this as very weird, but my RC friends deemed it as normal.... we both agreed that the Methodist use of Grape Juice instead of Wine was the very wierd practice.....

in a standard Communion, Catholics take both the host and the wine, though not many people do the wine (I guess because it's not that sanitary, maybe). I've never seen the wine not be offered to the congregation at large, and I've been to more Masses by now than I care to count. :P

I always thought the grape juice thing was a little strange too. :hi:

I was thinking the same thing earlier today when I first heard about the funeral arrangements. In fact, I was wondering from the beginning how that would be handled. I think it would be best for them to have separate ceremonies; the Schindlers can have the Catholic funeral they want and MS can have the service he wants. It's obvious that they simply cannot be at the same service together, anyway.

Solomonic, but messy. ;-)

:hi: Hi LH!

:hi: :hi: Where in the heck have you been?

This place depresses the hell outta me!

What a mess. I hope that woman rests in peace.

Michael Schiavo will never see a day's peace while the Schindler clan is existant. They are a bunch of vindictive assholes, who care NOTHING for their daughter as a person. Terri Schiavo is just a possession for them and probably was always treated as such. No wonder Terri had an eating disorder...

JB

Even better than a real daughter for control freaks like the Schindlers, since she doesn't do all those uppity woman things like think for herself or talk back.

a blow-up doll.

She's totally quiet and needs protection. Is this the fundies' ideal woman?

There's a higher incidence of eating disorders in females with obessive compulsive personality characteristics who are raised in a controlling family environment with high moral expectations and pressures to excel.

Schiavo's parents with their hyper-religiosity and constant controlling attempts with the husband Michael appear to fit the bill.

You have to wonder if their reticience to let her die is due to a deep-seated guilt that they ultimately caused her death (i.e., bulimia).

JB

life. Whether or not he dies, I don't know. But there'll be right wing nutjobs ready to kill him for Jesus.

Schiavo's relatives in row over funeral

Parents attack husband's plan for cremation, as woman lies dying

Richard Luscombe in Pinellas Park, Florida
Monday March 28, 2005
The Guardian

With the legal battle to keep Terri Schiavo alive all but over, her husband and her parents are now disputing what should happen to her body.
Michael Schiavo, who won his fight to have his wife's feeding tube removed by court order 10 days ago, has made arrangements for her to be cremated and her ashes interred in his family's plot in Pennsylvania.

But Bob and Mary Schindler want their daughter, a churchgoer until her collapse in 1990, to have a Roman Catholic funeral service and be buried near their home in Clearwater, Florida.


snip


George Felos, Michael Schiavo's lawyer, said his client had already won a judge's backing for his wishes to be carried out.

"Her ashes will be interred in the Schiavo family plot in Pennsylvania, where Terri and Michael grew up," he said.



snip



http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1446623,00.html

If Terri is buried in a marked grave, that grave will turn into a pilgrimage site for all the wingnuts like those loonies in the Schindler "posse" outside the hospice. If she's creamated, her grave can't be used for anyone's agenda.

an apparently they are never going to get it. It must be tough going through so detached from reality.

Can you possibly imagine the spectacle that would ensue if the Schindlers and the RW fundies planned the Funeral?

... why don't the Schindler con artists give it up already?
they've gotten more than 15 minutes of fame--more like half an hour--and they'll get their book deals, so they can stfu now. even after she's dead they have to be in control.

god this is pathetic. EVen after she's dead, the litigation will continue....

the stupidity of freepers astound me...