Reservist: Knee blows that killed 2 detainees were approved

Is our country going to be viewed as modern day Nazis soon, if it isn't already? I really hate the neocons...

FORT BLISS, Texas - An Army reservist accused of killing a detainee in Afghanistan told investigators that the blows that caused the man's death were commonly used to deal with uncooperative prisoners and that his superiors approved of the technique.

Other soldiers testified at a hearing here that they were taught to administer the so-called "compliance blows" in an Army course covering non-lethal tactics and that the blows became an accepted way of dealing with detainees who were considered "combative."

The statement from Pfc. Willie Brand and the testimony from his fellow soldiers provide new evidence that prisoner abuse in Afghanistan and Iraq might have been the result of interrogation and detention practices adopted for the war on terrorism.

U.S. officials have insisted that abuse at U.S.-run prisons in Afghanistan and Iraq was the work of a few rogue soldiers. But human rights groups have charged that President Bush's February 2002 directive saying the Geneva Conventions didn't apply to members of al-Qaida or Taliban fighters led to pervasive mistreatment, first in Afghanistan and later at Abu Ghraib prison and elsewhere in Iraq.

Brand's statements were read aloud at a so-called Article 32 hearing intended to determine whether he should be court-martialed in the December 2002 deaths of two prisoners at Bagram Air Base outside Kabul in Afghanistan. Among the 11 counts facing Brand is one charge of involuntary manslaughter and one charge of maiming in one death. He also faces multiple charges of maltreatment and assault in the deaths of both prisoners.

Army pathologists said the two detainees, identified as Habibullah and Dilawar, died as a result of repeated kneeings to their legs. The men died Dec. 4, 2002, and Dec. 10, 2002, respectively.

more...

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/news/nation/11235395.htm

http://www.afghanchat.com/article3203.html

excerpt:

The unreleased Army documents detail US military investigations of the deaths of a man named Mullah Habibullah, about 30, and another identified only as Dilawar, a 22-year-old taxi driver with a 2-year-old daughter, according to Sifton.

Under US detention, the two men were chained to the ceiling in standing positions, one at the waist and one by the wrists, while their feet remained on the ground, according to the Army reports. One of them was maimed over a five-day period, dying with his leg muscle tissue destroyed from blows to his knees and lower body.

The Army has publicly acknowledged the two deaths and announced in October that up to 28 US soldiers face possible charges in connection with what were ruled homicides.

Sifton said the Army documents show that US military investigators are accusing intelligence officers and police guards of using severe, unapproved tactics on many prisoners at Bagram, not only the two men.

...more...

someone is lying....

is it the serviceman or the Pentagon?

hmmmm....

I pick ....

the Pentagon.

then obviously the leg blows were not needed to get them under control. Therefore, the only possible purpose for the blows would be torture. The torture was intended to "punish" these men. Puish them for what, you might ask. Obviously, to punish them for the crime of being Iraqis.

water. Definitely, this is systematic training, a Pentagon policy. My question is why.

It's just a very convenient excuse for the pentagon to disavow responsibility for the actions of any of its employees.

As for they whys, it's pretty clear-cut. Shurb hasn't delivered on curbing al qaeda, or middle-east violence, or pesky "regime elements" in iraq and they're getting desperate, confusing Iraqi civilian detainees with terrorists, and generally getting all bothered and paranoid.

n/t

and to think they have been hunting german soldiers going on 70 years for doing this kind of stuff

I read the linked article, and I understand how targeting a nerve in the thigh can cause extreme pain, but how can it lead to death? The story attributes the deaths solely to the blows, but shouldn't the fact that the detainees were hanging from the ceiling count as a contributing factor? It could have interfered with their breathing as they lost consciousness from the pain.

I'm not doubting the criminality and brutality of the abuse. I'm just asking a question.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I wasn't aware I needed to exhaustively investigate everything before daring to put a question on DU. Your accusations are uncalled for.

This type of torture until death is beyond obscene and inhumane!! The war criminals also sit in the White House and this includes all who support them including Rice and Rove!!!

How does kneeing of itself lead to death? I'm not denying that it does. I'm only asking *how* it does, or how it can, and asking if the fact that the detainees were hanging from the ceiling was an aggravating factor in their deaths. That in no way condones either kneeing alone or hanging people from the ceiling alone as an acceptable means of handling detainees.

When merely asking a question is met with hostility, DU isn't far from the totalitarianism it professes to oppose. I'm sure the problem isn't sitewide, though. This is the first time I've encountered it.

because you have disabled your profile - I can't tell how long you have been with DU or when you started paying attention to the news.

here is a link to an article that might explain the exasperation that you are hearing from other DUers

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/8885107.htm?ERIGHTS=-1688175550241986614miami::herald@miami.com&KRD_RM=9pppytqxsytsxyutrvqtpppppp|Milton|N

(free registration required or try www.bugmenot.com)

Posted on Thu, Jun. 10, 2004


PRISONER ABUSE


Report: U.S. can ignore torture treaties

A March 2003 Defense Department report asserting that the president needn't follow prohibitions on torture has widened a rift between civilian and military officials.

WASHINGTON - A March 2003 Pentagon report arguing that the United States isn't bound by laws and treaties against torture has worsened a rift between Bush administration officials seeking maximum leeway to question prisoners and military lawyers who fear reprisals against U.S. troops.

The 52-page classified memo, prepared for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, offered a sweeping assertion of executive power, declaring that Congress and the federal courts have no authority to limit the detention and interrogation of combatants captured in war if the president approves the actions.

''Any effort by Congress to regulate the interrogation of unlawful combatants would violate the Constitution's sole vesting of the commander-in-chief authority in the president,'' the report claimed.

Even though the administration was claiming the right to ignore laws and treaties against torture, officials say it has abided by them.

Specialists in military law expressed consternation at the report, one of a number of memos leaked in recent days that suggest that the Bush administration was exploring ways to circumvent international treaties and U.S. laws that prohibit torture and mistreatment of prisoners.

''They were trying to reverse a 50-year history of adherence to the Geneva Conventions and torture conventions, and it's very troubling,'' said Scott Silliman, a former Air Force officer who heads the Center on Law, Ethics and National Security at Duke University.

...more...

torture is condoned by this maladministration - if you cannot understand that all the "approved techniques" came from the highest level of our government, I don't know how to explain to you that bashing someone's knees and lower extremities over a 5 day period will cause extreme damage of nerves and blood vessels - causing clotting and potentially life threatening conditions (have you never known anyone that had a blot clot? - just asking - or read about them or known that if you have a blood clot that reaches either your heart or lungs can cause death?)

at all. Simply asking a question about kneeing shouldn't lead someone to jump to that conclusion. I've known people with phlebitis, which is a dangerous condition if not handled properly. If someone had just said that kneeing could lead to blood clots forming in the legs, I would have figured out the rest.

That was the case for one of the detainees. The other had coronary artery disease and apparently suffered heart failure as a result of the blows. In his case the blows could have been anywhere.

I'm not condoning kneeing. I'm not excusing it. I'm trying to understand how it could have been considered acceptable treatment for detainees to begin with. Of course it isn't.

"Rhabdomyolysis is a syndrome characterized by muscle necrosis and the release of intracellular muscle constituents into the circulation. The severity of illness ranges from asymptomatic elevations of muscle enzymes in the serum to life-threatening cases associated with extreme enzyme elevations, electrolyte imbalances, and acute renal failure." When the muscle is badly beaten it breaks down and releases proteins into the blood stream, and these basically overwhelm the kidneys. This also happens when people are immobile for a length of time (e.g., when elderly fall at home and are stuck on the ground for many hours). It is all too common to see in an ER.

and welcome to DU elizsan!

:hi:

In my younger, more self-abusive years, I used to get purple colored urine after playing congas for hours on end. Among percussionists, it's sometimes called 'the purple pees'.

Myoglobin (muscle proteins) were being passed and it colored my urine purple. I gave up touring soon thereafter, as it can soon cause renal failure.

can form blood clots

excerpt:

pi]Under US detention, the two men were chained to the ceiling in standing positions, one at the waist and one by the wrists, while their feet remained on the ground, according to the Army reports. One of them was maimed over a five-day period, dying with his leg muscle tissue destroyed from blows to his knees and lower body.

<snip> Dilawar died from "blunt force trauma to the lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease," according to an Army report dated July 6, 2004. <snip>

<snip> Habibullah died of a pulmonary embolism apparently caused by blood clots formed in his legs from the beatings, according to a June 1, 2004, military report. <snip>

From this story it's clear that repeated kneeings caused blood clots and a pulmonary embolism in one man and aggravated the other man's coronary artery disease to the point of heart failure.

In other words, the kneeings led to complications that caused the men's deaths. That's all I was asking.

you understand more clearly.

from what I've read about these incidents, the kneeings caused damage to tissues, and as a result of that lactic acid builds up and causes further damage, and the body kind of poisons itself.

that non-lethal meant not deadly. Silly me. Of course repeated "kneeing" can't do much damage..only a few bloodn clots now and then. And those tazers..well just don't be stupis and stand too close.
My head hurts!

It also means that there is no medical care or advocacy, no rest or recuperation between assaults, etc... these people are beaten on the knees until their knees are literally pulverized.

I suffered a serious knee injury - and it was mind-alteringly painful.

To undergo such an experience over and over again might just kill them from dread, despair, and shock... this is unacceptable, un-American, and exactly like the bamboo shoots beneath the fingernails that we so decried by our 'opponents' in WWII, Korea and Vietnam.

Please use this disgust and outrage to oppose this barbaric, inhumane war by this barbaric, inhumane administration.

I'm just sickened by this.

This is so sickening and shameful. For some time I have felt embarrassed to be an american. All of us have to bear the shame and disgust of these amoral people running the show. Sick.

I agree with NVMojo; this savagery is despicable.

come home. I, for one, plan to ask people, "Aren't you glad the trained killers are home now?" I mean, that's what they are.

And if you pay attention to the news coming out of Fort Bragg, they can't stop killing once they return home. You make an excellent point, there.

:)

Being that this occupation is far worse than Operation Little Penis I back in '91, there's bound to be more school shootings and violence as the killers don't know how to readjust to society or get turned down for VA applications one too many times.

And the veterans get turned down for a lot. Plus the meds are going to triple under Bush's new plan. He already trippled the price of meds plus some, now he hopes to do it again. Sick. I actually live with a veteran. That's why I know. She calls Bush "Bosh" like some of the arabs do. It means "nothing" literally. I like that.

There is a thread in LBN that says re-enlistment is way up in some divisions. I suspect the ones who can't get away quick enough are not the type that enjoy bloodshed. In fact I would be willing to bet a good portion are downright sickened by it all. The longer the rabid ones stay in the greater the chance they will obtain some wisdom as they age or eventually get sickened by it all themselves. There will be some mental cases though and they probably will do some very unpleasant things.

err on the side of life?

an MP when our base picked 2 dudes from each unit to go play cop when the MP force just about ran dry.

Anyway, it's something like the common peronneal nerve, the largest group of nerve endings in the body or some such statistic, when you've got a prisoner in the folded wrist lock, and they get 'froggy' -as our instructors called it- you knee the shit out of that area and people drop in an instant.

We all had it done to us repeatedly, and we all did it to others repeatedly - but then, we were all very healthy young 20 yr olds, and there wasn't much of a chance of clotting. Shit, after the PR24 training -when we basically beat the ever living shit out of the primary instructor with white lighter plastic versions (I think he got off on pain)- he came in the next day and dropped trou to show us his bruises from his thighs all the way down to his knees.

Sick fucker. But these tactics were to be only for our protection, it was never about torturing some poor farmer.

Marines BANNED a hazing practice called "Blood Striping" (it's a long story about how a shitload of NCOs lost their lives in some Mexican-American war, and that's why you'll see the red stripe down the sides of the pants of any Marine NCOs or above Dress Blues) that was the second part of the gauntlet on promotion to an initial NCO rank.

A typical gauntlet was walking through a 2 by x amount of dudes that were higher in rank than you, and you got punched in the arms as hard as each pair could dish it out, then you turned around and did the same thing but just backwards, 1 step at a time. Then you had to run back through the gauntlet, and everyone just beat the shit out of you.

The aforementioned banned practice was each step also involving a knee to your legs by everyone that had reached NCO level. It was BRUTAL. It was banned because two guys died during promotional ceremonies during Desert Storm (there was an entire base of people to get through) after clots went to the brains during repeated kneeings.

on edit: The 'striping' was still done, just back behind the company office or barracks, where the 'superiors' couldn't see

further edit: In short, being in the Marines was the dumbest 4 years of my life.