Minutemen Prepare to Lay Down the Law (rally coverage)

At a rally Friday in an airy building not far from the infamous OK Corral, politicians and activists lambasted Bush and vowed not to be intimidated.

"Since when did actually enforcing the laws of the land become a radical idea?" asked Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.). "If you don't know who is coming across your borders and for what purpose, then you cannot call yourself a nation."
The 200 or so volunteers roared their approval, a few shouting: "Tancredo for president!"

Conservative political pundit Bay Buchanan chipped in. "Mr. President, you have failed us, you have failed our children, you have failed those communities suffering from drugs coming across the border," she said. "Mr. President, you have failed America!"

Outside the hall, demonstrators pounded pots and pans with spoons, trying to drown out the rally. There were dancers in traditional Aztec dress carrying signs calling the Minutemen racists. Monitors in red and white shirts from the American Civil Liberties Union have organized themselves into groups that will follow the civilian patrols that officially begin Monday.
....
The number of Minutemen who assembled here Friday was not as great as had been expected. James Gilchrist, the Orange County activist who organized the event, had predicted at least 1,000 would show up.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-minute2apr02,0,6997810.story?coll=la-home-nation

Shouldnt they be raising their voices to declare: "Tancredo for President" ? ....

however I think that massing on the border to intimidate and possibly kill poor people simply looking for work or something to eat is NOT the solution to the problem.

The solution, of course, is to impeach BushCo, allow them to be judged before the ICC and restore our hijacked republic, IMO.

To fulfill ALL of there obligations. I think the Border Patrol is a relatively small agency and has their hands full. More funding is probably in order. I mean, the border is thousands of miles long, most of it in very inhospitable places.

Washington -- The law signed by President Bush less than two months ago to add thousands of border patrol agents along the U.S.-Mexico border has crashed into the reality of Bush's austere federal budget proposal, officials said Tuesday.

Officially approved by Bush on Dec. 17 after extensive bickering in Congress, the National Intelligence Reform Act included the requirement to add 10,000 border patrol agents in the five years beginning with 2006. Roughly 80 percent of the agents were to patrol the southern U.S. border from Texas to California, along which thousands of people cross into the United States illegally every year.

But Bush's proposed 2006 budget, revealed Monday, funds only 210 new border agents.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/02/09/MNGOKB837T1.DTL

Buh is not the least bit interested in our national security. I have been following this issue since the 9/11 attack. Since 9/11 the Border Patrol has been repeatedly begging Buh for money for more manpower and equipment so that they could do an adequate job of preventing undetected entries into our country, including terrorists that could waltz right across the border. Buh just keeps refusing to help the Border Patrol.

Then again, maybe Buh has new plans and needs another terrorist attack to happen soon and scare the American people into submission again.

who drive the demand for cheap, exploitable slave labor, I might say a few nice things about them.

As it is, this is racist grandstanding. They are attacking the victims of a cheap labor slave economy, not the ones responsible for it.

To really put a dent in the problem of illegal immigration, the government should seriously focus on and go after those who hire them.

These poor people come here looking for jobs. If there are no jobs for them, then there is no reason for them to illegally cross the border.

This will not happen under this misadministration. Their corporate fat-cat buddies want the CHEAP labor that they get from these poor immigrants.

It makes me sick when I hear the excuse: "They are just doing jobs that Americans don't want to do." I say BS! Americans WILL do these jobs if they are paid fairly. These corporation scream "free-market" as the solution to everything. Well, this market is telling them that they must pay their workers more money to do these jobs. (agriculture, janitorial work)

But do the corps do what the market dictates? Hell, no. They are willing to break the law by bringing in these immigrants who will work next to nothing by American standards. The hell with the market when the market tells them something they do not want to hear.

Again, the first step of solving the problem of illegal immigration is to go after the people and/or companies that hire those persons crossing the border illegally. When these companies get caught, hit them with penalties that really hurt them. Right now, there is very little consequence to firing illegals for pocket change.

Going after those poor souls who cross our border looking for a better life is like trying to damn a river with a piece of straw. The government is aware of this problem. When the focus those who are providing the jobs, then we will know they are serious.

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you look pretty weak when you question trajan's bonifides...he's been here a long time now...pretty sure he's no bush supporter...your logic is pretty weak too...by the way...

Let's see, Trajan suggests DUers who support stopping illegal immigration would support a Republican like Trancredo for president. Using the same logic, I suggest that DUers supporting open borders voted for Bush, the number one advocate of open borders. I fail to see how that logic is weak.

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"Where are the DUer supporters of the Minutemen .... Shouldnt they be raising their voices to declare: Tancredo for President"

They are, in fact, upholding the law and I support that.

The people who break the law are those who cross he border illegally.

I actually support what these people are doing. Don't like the immigration laws? Work to change them. If they're on the books, however, they need to be enforced as immigration is an important issue for any nation's government.

...gave to your ancestors when they illegally off loaded their asses on to this continent. Oh, ain't got none? Then perhaps you should pack your shit up and head back where they came from then.

Don

Even those who have entered the country illegally.

Did the indigenous people who were already here make that rule? Or was it the people who came here and slaughtered the indigenous people and put them on reservations think of that one? Kind of like the chicken and the egg thing.

Don

Look what happened to them.

You may not like it, but it's truye.

None of my ancesptrs came to this naiton until years after the civil War, let alone at an ealier date.

They are vigilantes (or potential ones anyway). The enforcement problem is a funding problem. not enough agents. But that doesn't mean that a bunch of yahoos can get out there and do the job instead. They will start a border war if we let them continue this.

"They are vigilantes (or potential ones anyway). The enforcement problem is a funding problem. not enough agents. But that doesn't mean that a bunch of yahoos can get out there and do the job instead. They will start a border war if we let them continue this."

I'm not sure I follow your thinking. Why don't tey have a right to walk around in the desert if they want to. They may be wrong, but I am not for restricting their right to be wrong.

And the enforcement problem is not a funding problem. It is a political problem. Anyone politician that tries to control the border is immediately called a racist and that is total BS. I mean, how often are we supposed to fall in line like little lemmings every time some group throws around the racist label.

What some people want are wide open borders because they do not believe in world boundries. But they don't have the courage to say so. So they call people opposed that idea racist and vigilantes.

We don't have the political will to enforce the laws for a variety of reasons. But I was trying to state that part of the problem is not having enough enforcement agents so that this vigilante idiots think they can fill the gap.

Personally I do not believe in open borders. But I don't think these so-calles Minutemen are the answer either. They are grandstanding and someone is liable to get hurt. What I want to see is curbs on illegal immigration (if someone wants to come and work they need the proper paperwork to do so). But to do that will require helping the Mexican economy that is so dependent on the money these workers send back. And severely fining companies that use illegal immigrants. I mean fining them so much they go out of business. But neither of these is likely to happen so the situation will only get worse.

"We don't have the political will to enforce the laws for a variety of reasons. But I was trying to state that part of the problem is not having enough enforcement agents so that this vigilante idiots think they can fill the gap. "

Yep, exactly correct. If the border was properly controlled these yahoos would not feel the need to be out there. By the way, did you see what their first encounter produced. They found a guy that was dehydrated and lost and helped him. Kind of ironic. Here the open borders people have been saying that we should not be letting people die in the desert and the group they are opposing has just prevented exactly that from happening. This is fun to watch.

Unless there is, they are within their rights.

Sit on the border with cell phones and binoculars. You see somebody crossing and you call the INS.

What in that requires any special authority? If I need special authority to report a drime, no criminals would be prosecuted.

They are not vigilantes, they are proivate citizens reporting crimes in progress. Everybody in the country is a potential murderer. do we put everybody in tha nation into prison because of the poitential for mischief?

If we want that much immigration from Mexico, then it is pretty simple to get it done. Set up an office there and start processing the paperwork to give them legal entry.

The problem is not people coming here, it is them coming here illegally.

CHANGE THE FUCKING LAW!

that Buh should have done after the attack on 9/11 attack is hire thousands more border patrol agents to seal our physical borders - not to protect us from Mexican folks seeking work, but from potential terrorists entering the US completely undetected. This is just pure common sense and logic.

The very fact that Buh did not take this obviously very necessary step to insure our national security at that time, or at any time since then, reinforces my belief that he was somehow complicit in allowing the 9/11 attack to occur in order to implement the PNAC agenda. Instead of protecting our borders after 9/11, Buh attacked Iraq. Doh! Just like the PNAC had been wanting to do for years.

Anyway, literally thousands of terrorists could have crossed into our country on foot since 9/11, (because tens of thousands of Mexican folks seeking work DID cross into our country undetected), but Buh did absolutely nothing of consequence to protect our borders, despite repeated pleas from our border patrol for more manpower, equipment, and funding.

Now, I have to admit, I personally do have a problem with illegal immigration, and even legal immigration right now, and it is pure selfishness on my part, I guess, maybe....but it just seems to me that we already have too many people in the US, and we don't need any more. Period. It also seems to me that we have way too few jobs and too many people out of work in the US right now, and we don't need any more competition in the labor market.

I grew up in a rural agricultural area, and when I was younger personally lost jobs to illegal laborers, saw my power as a laborer become zero due to the increased job competition from illegal labor, and also saw wages held at a near standstill for 10 years due to the influx of illegal workers.

No apologies here, I believe in American resources for Americans first. The days of "give me your poor, etc." are long over. Resources are becoming scarce, land is becoming scarce, jobs are becoming scarce, and, IMO, we need to put a 5 year moratorium on ALL immigration, assess what we have left and figure out how to use it most efficiently, and then review the moratorium and see if we want to, or can afford to, lift it or not.

I think that we all clearly recognize the undeniable fact that Buh has severely weakened our nation in his tenure as our national buffoon, and if we are to ever recover we need to get rid of that fucking asshole *yesterday*, and implement practical constructive measures that strengthen our country from within, take care of Americans first, and especially stop throwing our money in giant holes like we are doing in Iraq.

So if these "Minutemen" can force Buh into doing what is best for the American people (that would, indeed, be a first) without hurting anyone, well, good for them, and good for us, too.

what a fuckin joke.

and they won't last long once the temps soar into triple digits. it won't be so "romantic" when the sun is beating down on your head at 120 degrees

subscriptions to soldier of fortune, flopping like fish in the mid-day sun. tough talk and hitching up your britches is easy to do in the air conditioning. let a few of 'em die from dehydration and this whole thing will go away.

In the bar.


Where, I assure you, a lot of the tough talk takes place.

what a buch of poser punks these assholes are.

Redstone

of the future Gestapo of Amerika. I hope they issue the black uniforms in time for the 100+ degree temperatures in southern AZ.

of amusement to watch Bay Buchanan railing against the Shrub on TV last night. She ranted for a full 10 minutes because he had called them and their movement a name (sorry didn't catch the offending title) but boy was she pissed and couldn't say enough nasty things about Chimpy. The opportunity for a few minutes of entertainment watching the repugs eat each other is not to be missed. Will be interesting to see her next week on the telly exalting the Dumbassness again when it is not her ox getting gored.

I saw her go off the right wing looney handle when she appeared with Donna Brazille on CNN about Terri Schiavo. I have heard a lot of crazies since the case hit the news but she may have even surpassed Tom DeLay on the wacko-meter this past week.

Rp

is starting to fall apart. The fundies are outraged at Bush for not doing enough in the "water the dead vegtable" debacle, many true conservatives are pissed at him and congressional Repugs for trying to do too much in that same case, and now these para-military, militia-wannabe, super-patriots are bad-mouthing his nibs. Wait until these vigilantes start getting arrested and have their guns confiscated.

Next up in the Bush-bashing line: the NRA! LOL

how much money does mexico send to US every day? millions? billions? If anything, the US should be sending money to mexico (arizona, california, new mexico and texas still belong to mexico)

The US farmers in the Rio Grand valley would have appreciated Mexico abiding by the Mex-US water agreement. Mexico's failure broke many US farmers.

Your assertion Texas is part of Mexico is as ridiculous as the "Republic of Texas" militants claiming Texas is still an independent nation. Get real.

in georgebushamerica real is a multi part scheme to cause someone to react just like the news as brought us by the MSN....i was of course being provocative with the 'calif etc belong to mexico' (hoping to upset a freeper lutker so much he maybe spill his cocoa!)...lol. I recall something about the 'water agreement' and don't doubt innocent people were victimised; it's just unusual that in that case they were american farmers!

It was a BIG deal in Texas and YES, Mexico's disregard for the treaty financially ruined a number of US farmers.

Got anything to back up your statement about the Mexicans breaking the water treaty?

We're DYING to see how you can back up such a ridiculous claim.

And while you're at it, how about a little bit of honesty as to the source of your hatred for Mexicans?

Redstone

REDSTONE, BEFORE YOU SPOUT OFF, WHY DON'T YOU USE THE INTERNET?

Source: Copyright 2005, LA Times
Date: March 11, 2005
Byline: Chris Kraul

MEXICO CITY — Amid recent strains in U.S.-Mexican relations, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice announced Thursday that the two nations had settled an acrimonious water dispute and took pains to emphasize Mexico's help in the fight against terrorism and drug trafficking.

snip

The water accord could end several years of cross-border sniping, especially from Texas farmers who accused Mexicans of hogging water in violation of terms of a 1944 treaty governing distribution from the Rio Grande, its tributaries and other rivers.

Under provisions of that treaty, in which the two nations share water from their rivers, Mexico owes the United States 716,000 acre-feet of water, down from 1.3 million acre-feet in late 2002. (The measurement refers to the amount of water needed to cover an acre to a depth of 1 foot.)

According to the U.S. State Department, Mexico has agreed to send enough water to the U.S. to clear up the deficit by September.

Drought on both sides of the border had intensified the dispute. However, heavy rainfall over the last two years has improved water supplies.

September 17, 2004
Valley growers target
Mexico in water dispute By Tom Nicolette
Director of Media Services

A claim has been filed by 17 Texas irrigation districts, 29 independent water rights holders and the North Alamo Water Supply Corporation in the Lower Rio Grande Valley against Mexico for up to a half billion dollars in damages. The $500 million claim addresses Mexico's failure to deliver more than 1 million acre-feet of Rio Grande River water to the Texas Valley between 1992 and 2002.

"By diverting claimants' water to Mexican farmers, Mexico dramatically increased its irrigated agricultural production on the Mexican side of the Rio Grande. (Meanwhile) the crops of United States farmers in the Rio Grande Valley shriveled," said Nancie Marzulla, counsel for the claimants.

Mexico thus treated the investments of U.S. growers less favorably than it treated its own investors, she added.


snip

Under the terms of a 1944 treaty, Mexico was allocated two-thirds of the water from the Rio Grande River and the U.S. was allocated one-third. The U.S. has complied with the treaty provisions while Mexico has not since 1992. Beginning 12 years ago, Mexico systematically failed to deliver the average minimum annual amount of 350,000 acre-feet of water it was required to give to the U.S. By the end of a 10-year period (1992-2002), Mexico's total water debt escalated to 1,476,181 acre-feet.


snip

"The state has long been frustrated that there has been no legal remedy for us to directly challenge Mexico for their failure to comply with the treaty. Yet, Texas and the individual water rights holders of Texas are really the only entities directly impacted by Mexico's failure to comply with the treaty," said TCEQ Chairman Kathleen White.

One of the claimants is Hidalgo County Farm Bureau member Jimmie Steidinger.

"My losses from 1992 to 2002 just on 180 acres of citrus was a little over $200,000," said the Donna producer, who subsequently had to lay off his workers because of the water shortage.

Overall, the Rio Grande Valley has sustained a loss of 30,000 jobs and $1 billion in decreased business activity related to the failure to receive more water from Mexico.

Another claimant is Cameron County Irrigation District Number 2.

"We've already suffered sufficient damages. We have to put a stop to it so that it won't continue. I think we have gotten to the point where we have lost too many farmers, and we can't afford to lose any more," the irrigation district's General Manager Sonia Kaniger emphasized.

Satellite aerial photos of Mexico show the country does have sufficient water right now to make repayments to the Valley claimants.

"Mexico owes us today 737,000 acre-feet (of water). Their storage volume is increasing dramatically. The question for anybody is, why aren't they paying?" said Texas Agriculture Commissioner Susan Combs.

for a very long time. and it did hurt many US farmers. i don't remember how it was resolved, though.

broke the water treaty.

than what ever your babbling about!

Obviously, Texas farmers and US workers are not high on your list of concerns.

Spend a few minutes searching, "Water dispute Mexico". It is hardly propaganda.

I've read all your slanted links, and had to laugh!

Okay, the stories- and plenty of them- did come from the MSM. I guess American farmers just aren't worthy of your concern.

Just the ones that fit your agenda,'eh?

If the US were in a position to take every drop of that water we would and you know it.

How many "treaties" has the US walked away from when it suited us?

Face facts, water is going to be a big issue and there are not going to be a lot of robin-hoods involved.

I've lived in Texas for over 20 years and that's the FIRST time I've ever heard "no blab, just fact". Yea, I can REALLY tell you're from Texas.

Mexico did in fact violate the treaty as stated in the articles. That was not propaganda but FACT. Apparently the situation has been resolved now.

Yes, I am a native Texan and I don't appreciate your low-brow carping. Oh, and my daddy can beat up your daddy. So take that.

not the Rio Grande, which is what we are talking about. There are other dams on the Rio Grande though.

It is a major part of the economy. Mexico's government does not want to lose this source of income (and US companies want cheap labor) so nothing actually changes.

these minutemen are all wound up. it's making them nuts.

it might improve their attitude!

...featuring Latino men and white women. That would be inflammatory, and would just get even more people killed.

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=38934

Gaffes hamper Minuteman kickoff
By Le Templar, Tribune
TOMBSTONE - The first volunteers for the Minuteman Project arrived before 8 a.m. Friday, eager to be part of a civilian campaign seeking to discourage illegal immigration and highlight the porous nature of the U.S. border.
But they didn’t get within 30 miles of Mexico, as project organizers struggled throughout the day with a rash of equipment failures and a crush of state and national media that threatened to outnumber the volunteers.

Confused and sometimes overwhelmed, leaders of the Minuteman Project provided incomplete or conflicting information to supporters and observers alike. Most volunteers left the first day’s briefings without a clear idea of how or where they will be assigned to watch for illegal migrants walking north.

Still, the Minuteman Project registered more than 200 volunteers in Tombstone on Friday, much higher numbers than previous attempts in Arizona to gather everyday people for a task normally associated with the U.S. Border Patrol. Several volunteers said they would be patient.

of Freeperville.



dp

We do need a realistic border control policy, with proper documentation. I don't understand why I have to be nearly strip searched to get on a plane (to find finger nail clippers) but people of all walks can stroll on into our Country with a little know how.
This is a potential for disaster. These drug runners pack serious fire power a lot of the time and more importantly they are so far outside of the law that they aren't afraid to use that firepower. If these people are so concerned about their cause why don't they camp out on the White Hose steps with some signs
Oh yeah where the hell we're they at during the election? Didn't hear them then.

What's wrong with you?

Taking your shirt off in front of airport screeners and lines of passengers and letting them cop a feel is a procedure designed for your own security.

So is allowing untold thousands of anonymous foreigners to cross our borders. Don't you know America is the land of the free? It doesn't matter if these non-citizens are breaking the law in coming here --

SLAVE LABOR IS GOOD FOR AMERICA and you just better get used to it!

<sarcasm off>

and it's a bloody street battle, who will they call to help them? Yes, "the cavalry", the old U.S. government, you know, the one that those "self-made" types like to tell people to get off their backs.

Good luck with that one, tough guys. And I've seen what passes for these amateur "militias" -- usually fat, white, old middle-aged men who spent too much time in front of gasbags like Limbaugh and Hannity. They'll get wiped up by pro Mexican street gangs. But have it, tough guys!

Or are they his undercover army?
I point out the fact that no right wing militant organization was included in the Homeland Security list of threats.
Are we about to see the privatization of law enforcement?
Or worse, anarchy from the wacko wannabees!
In any case the fact that * has not openly condemned this act of treason puts him in cahoots with these freaks.
In either case he has lost control!

Enforcing the laws by an authorized agent of Government is not a radical idea. Allowing civilian military wannabees to parade around and intimidate local citizens is quite radical and I might say not very American as America always stood for Law and Order. It is illegal I believe for a citizen to take the law into their own hands. I know we have a thing called citizen's arrest but that is for an immediate crime. It isn't for people going out and hunting up a crime so they could arrest someone. This is just plain insanity. Someone is going to get seriously injured and I would not be a bit surprised if this Representative could not be held liable as he has authority and yet encouraged this illegal operation. I think a law suit should be pre-emptively filed against this person for incitement. IMHO Law Enforcement Agents should immediately disband these vigilantes and send them back to their home states or counties.

This isn't much different than a neighborhood watch program. I wouldn't call these guys vigilantes unless they were the ones actually rounding up the illegals and sending them back. From what I hear, they only plan to inform the border patrol of anything they see that needs attention. The way these people are being characterized is wrong. They aren't racist, and in fact some are of the same ethnicity as the Mexicans that are crossing the border. President Bush's largest failure on this matter is not pressuring the Mexican Government to do something about this. Mexico is not a poor country, and with some internal reforms, they can help spread the prosperity that is there. Hopefully, these "minutemen" people won't cause so many problems that the already strained border patrol has to worry about these clowns as well as the ones hopping the fences into the US.

Sure Hoss. My Neighborhood watch group patrols the neighborhood with firearms and 10 gallon faux-cowboy hats too. Uh huh.

So when's the Block Party?

:eyes:

RL

If you house was on the border, you would have a gun handy. Those people there have been overrun. You would not need to wear a 10 gallon hat though.

yeah, right, by the same people currently cleaning your palm springs pool, manicuring your palm springs lawn, and washing your palm springs BMW's.

(Well, maybe not yours specifically, but maybe so...)

RL

"yeah, right, by the same people currently cleaning your palm springs pool, manicuring your palm springs lawn, and washing your palm springs BMW's.

(Well, maybe not yours specifically, but maybe so...)"

Not sure I get your point. I understand you are talking about the Mexican gardeners and pool cleaners but I don't see how that has anything to do with people living along the border that are having their property overrun.

(And definately not mine specifically if you are asking if I have an gardener or pool person. And I definately do not have a BMW and would not want one).

Hang on, it is about to get really, seriously rough for us all.

See you on the other side of the dollar.

as being nothing but a bunch of racist, gun-happy rednecks:


......Gilchrist emphasized to his troops that no one was authorized to touch or detain any illegal immigrant, but that they should report them to the Border Patrol — which has said it doesn't want the help. "The rules of engagement are that there is no engagement," Gilchrist said.

Gilchrist, a 58-year-old Vietnam veteran and retired accountant from Aliso Viejo, said that white supremacist groups such as the Aryan Nations, which urged people to volunteer for the Minutemen, were not welcome.

"I have found in the last three months that hate groups come in all colors," Gilchrist said, explaining he had been threatened by a Latino gang and various individuals. "I have had … probably 12 actual death threats.".....

Buddy Watson, a former prison guard, carried a .40-caliber pistol. He said he had reread the Constitution before coming here from Bentonville, Ark., to make sure he didn't violate anybody's rights.

"We have been threatened, so I am carrying a gun," he said. "I have no intention of having to use it."........


Of course, no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary, many Du'ers will still label and denounce the Minutemen in ways the fit there preconceptions and prejudices.

The Minutemen are patrolling on public land on OUR side of the border in OUR country. For the DU'ers who think we should be the slaves of the corporate elites in Mexico and the United States and let the border leak like a sieve (destroying wages and the social safety net in the process), that's just too damn bad.

Gaffes hamper Minuteman kickoff
By Le Templar, Tribune

TOMBSTONE - The first volunteers for the Minuteman Project .. didn’t get within 30 miles of Mexico, as .. organizers struggled .. with a rash of equipment failures ... Confused and sometimes overwhelmed, leaders .. provided incomplete or conflicting information to supporters and observers ... Most volunteers left the first day’s briefings without a clear idea of how or where they will be assigned ... Supporters .. say a good turnout might persuade President Bush to drop his proposal for a guest-worker program ... U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo. .. joined a handful of state lawmakers ... Gilchrist said leaders aren’t discouraging volunteers from carrying firearms ...

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=38934

"Immigrant Spotters"? Sounds like vigilantes to me.

NACO, Arizona (Reuters) - Scores of volunteers waving flags and chanting "Close Our Borders" rallied in Arizona on Saturday, kicking off a month of "citizens' patrols" against illegal immigration across the Mexican border.

Some 150 protesters from the Minuteman Project demonstrated outside the U.S. Border Patrol in the town of Naco, at what they say is the federal government's failure to stem the flow of undocumented immigrants.

"We want the government to secure the border which is right now uncontrolled," Pennsylvania hotel operator Greg Sheehan said as he joined volunteers mustering in cars and trucks for the curbside rally.

Organizers of the Minuteman Project, which takes its name from American Revolution militia, say 1,200 volunteers will stake out a 20-mile stretch of the border with Mexico throughout April, and report illegal aliens to the Border Patrol.

more: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=8068800

I think this is another mess waiting to happen.

Walk like, talk like, quack like..

Redstone

He also calls them vigilantes. I wonder, do you characterize members of neighborhood watches as vigilantes to?

Frankly, I can't think of another time I have, EVER.

It's a hell of a leap from a neighborhood watch to traveling across the country and setting up your own unregulated, lawless posse to enforcethe laws.

That's what we have border patrol agents for; they are trained and legal.

These are just a bunch of freepers getting their jollies dressing up as tough guys.

While we do have a right to secure our border and regulate the number of non-citizens entering the country, it is a job for law enforcement, not weekend warriors. If these folks run loose, it is only a matter of time before a tragic incident happens.

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the sky is blue, that makes me...whatever it is that you're implying?

Ohhhhkay.

Second, neighborhood watches (at least around here) are people who live in the neighborhood, not people coming from other parts for the country, and furthermore don't strut around packing .40-caliber pistols.

Next dumb statement?

Redstone

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I'll make a blatantly racist and patently untrue one, though I'll have to borrow it from you:

"The vast majority of them, in addition to entering the country illegally, commit crimes such as rape, murder, robbery, drug trafficking, prostitituion, etc (not to mention driving without insurance or a license)...

Got any stats to back up that "vast majority" claim?

Redstone

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it's your responsibility to back it up with numbers, not mine.

And when was it, again, that your ancestors immigrated to America? I didn't notice a post where you told us that.

Redstone

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

YOU made the statement. YOU provide the numbers to back it up.

Show 'em if you got 'em. Otherwise, fold.

Redstone

wrong message to reply to!

Same sort of labels many conservatives use to describe peace protesters, without trying to understand their motivations. You are in good company.

If a liberal tried to protest openly wearing a gun, do you think conservatives would be trying to 'understand their motivations'?

http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?ei=UTF-8&p=Minuteman+Project&c=news_photos



Tim Donnelly of Twin Peaks, Calif, right, carries a pistol as he and other demonstrators protest outside of a border patrol station, Saturday, April 2, 2005, in Douglas, Ariz. More than 100 supporters of the Minuteman Project, which will use civilians to patrol the Arizona-Mexico border for illegal immigrants and smugglers, picketed the station near the border. (AP Photo/Tom Hood)


Two armed volunteers with the Minuteman Project look for potential illegal immigrants coming north from Mexico while they stand on the U.S. side of the border in Naco, Arizona, April 2, 2005.

:(

A good many coyotes are not known as being very conscientious with their "goods."

Poor people are victimized by "friend" and foe:(

Considering that the media and ACLU monitors outnumber them, and MS-13 promising to ambush and kill them, what could go wrong?

just like some of them want..Shoot 'em up ..:( The first US person to die will be martyred and we're off to the races:(

... it's a recipe for disaster.

Every piece of store bought veggie or fruit that you eat that grows in the southwest is picked by one of them "damn wetbacks"


They passed Prop 200 out here by a wide margin basically the state of Arizona overall supports making federal employees ALL federal employees (teachers ect) instruments to investigate if any illegals are making use of government functions.

This is exactly why the girl and I are moving from Arizona asap. I can't live in a state where someone would willingly or be forced to conduct investigations or question someone of my heritage.

As far as I'm concerned Arizona I understand you hate my kind despite that this state once belonged to us and it is our kind that picks your fucking vegetables and cleans your yards and your homes and patrols your streets as cops.

Wanna curb illegal immigration? why not go after those middle and upper class Republicans who hire Mexicans as cheap labor? why not pull up in your pick ups to their places of business and rally and protest?

It's because you hate us but have no problem supporting criminals whose every actions go against what you claim to be against.

It's because you're a fucking racist hypocrite who thinks it all comes nice and easy with no work and no sense to be made.

I fucking hate you too and can't wait to go north and away from your filth.

"Wanna curb illegal immigration? why not go after those middle and upper class Republicans who hire Mexicans as cheap labor? why not pull up in your pick ups to their places of business and rally and protest?"

I agree. This should be the next thing the Minutemen do.

car wash near my LA area home. Needless to say, the guys who dry the cars are all illegal immigrants who aren't officially on the payroll. This point was driven home as the manager came out and announced it was "payday." The manager then sat behind a folding table and doled out cash to each and every worker right there beside the gas pumps. It couldn't have been more brazen. But no one was complaining.

Thousands of Southern CA employers depend on this cheap, steady supply of immigrants willing to work off-the-books while the government looks the other way.

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to press an extra button on the phone.

My sympathy.

Redstone

"get out of his country."

Tell you what, you do that, and come to my country...you'll be more than welcome here, no matter your ethnic background.

My country is called America. It was built by immigrants, and there's still plenty of room. Come on in, and make yourself at home.

Redstone

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I'm sorry to be impolite, but it won't bother me to see you go.

You can go ahead and leave; I'll stay here for a while to fight racism. Like a good American.

Redstone

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Are you sure you're in the right discussion group?

I'd suggest www.freerepublic.com ...you might find more support for your positions there.

Redstone

have ever employed an undocumented worker as a gardener or housekeeper or babysitter? Any bets on whether the hotel operator has ever hired an undocumented worker as a housekeeper, janitor, cook, or busboy?

If all of the "illegal immigrants" left the US at once, who the hell would work in the fields, the slaughterhouses, the fast food joints, and car washes? There would for sure be a major crisis in Southern California where we have come to rely on these workers to wash the dishes in our restaurants, clean our homes and offices, mind our small children, cut our lawns, do the backbreaking labor at construction sites, polish our cars, stock our shelves, etc....

Repukes love to bitch about "illegals," but they sure do love the economic benefits of a steady supply of low wage workers to be exploited.

I think it was called "A Day Without a Mexican."

All the benefits, none of the guilt.

Don't these nitwits read?

the felons?

is it pure prejudiced, or, Labor, making way for some of those $8.00 an hour, jobs to become, available to the, American, public? For, instance, some of those, American households, that work 3-4 jobs? Perhaps some of those very appealing Hotel cleaning jobs. Or, perhaps, one of those nice, fruit, picking jobs?

some get paid as low as $3.00 a hour. There are two problems: 1) Mexico is run by the rich-white Mexicans due to their separation of class. 2) US supports it, likes it and exploits it. Mexican government is no different than Saudi Arabia.

Funny thing is that the open gateway to illegals, mostly high class criminals, comes from white race Canada. These bunch of charlatans are only looking for brown skins. You can legally carry a gun in AZ as long as it is not concealed.

and a dump to live in without water or power. (Cotton fields) Most Mexicans making three dollars an hour are extremely lucky.

A lot of us could take a lesson from their willingness to put their actions where their words are.

The arguments here against their efforts would carry more weight if these clowns weren't simply trying to get authorities to enforce existing laws. I heard very few here criticizing Judge Greer et al for enforcing the law earlier this week.

If you disagree with the law, work to change it. Hurling insults at people who have the courage to buck Shrubco and the ruling elite does nothing except remind us that hypocrisy isn't limited to the Repugs.

And he HAS completely ignored border security while "taking credit" for not having more than one 9/11 -- there is absolutely NOTHING stopping anybody from anywhere who wants to do harm here, from just walking in, that's one of the reasons the "killing terrorists in Iraq" thing is so bogus.

This is a tough situation because most of us can see both sides of the issue. The extreme poverty that is driving Mexicans here in the first place to work IS being exploited by * & Co and their business cronies who'll do anything to keep wages down and more profits in their pockets. Meanwhile, a myriad of other issues have sprouted up as a result like the border problems in Arizona, the lack of security from the threat of more terrorism, and issues in California where schools and hospitals services are strained by the influx of people who have not and will not be paying into the system for services.

This problem has been ignored for far to long and to be honest, I don't see a racial issue here at all, but more of a practical one. To frame it as purely a racial issue is ignoring the issue as a whole. Frankly, it's gotten to the point where this problem must be addressed. The Minutemen are trying to shine a light on the issue and promote change. After all, isn't this EXACTLY what we've all been complaining about for months around here? That no one will step and do anything concrete to promote change?! These people ARE-which is more than can be said for the rest of us.

What worries me is that this whole thing could get very ugly, because there are Mexican forces in place. President Fox is buddy buddy with * and no doubt they are on the same side on this issue. We should all delve deeper and be asking what do the two of them want the outcome to be....that is the question. :scared:

Is anybody more exploited than the Mexican worker?? Bush's vision is for us to be at about the same level. You know, "rugged individualism" and all that, why saddle the employer with minimum wage, health care issues or anything else?

The situation in Mexico is what happens with unbrideled pro-monied class policies...very desirable to the top 4% but even for them, not sustainable, sooner or later people will say, ENOUGH!

As usual, instead of a moderate amount of control at the border, our republican pals and the Arizona developers who give generously to their Patron, El Presi-chimpo, we have a look the other way policy.

The Arizona developers want the labor. If it was not for the tidal wave of illegals, what do you think the average hourly reate for a home framer in Phoenix would be?

The underground economy of illegals and people paying them is staggering.

Mexico knows that this is a political nightmare for El Chimpo, so they have become rather brazen in their retoric, knowing he has no where to go on the issue.

The border should be controlled, and then an agreed number of day labor and short term monthly labor numbers agreed on. We have a mess now, and the developers profit from it, so you will not hear a thing about it from them.

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Been to Nebraska lately?

And, by the way, exactly which Indian tribe do you belong to, and how pure is your bloodline in that tribe, that you can feel so righteous to be so opposed to immigration?

I'm sorry that I can't, because only half of my family was here before 1492. The other half is Irish and they immigrated in the 1920s. I'm kind of glad they did, even if they were met by a bunch of "no Irish need apply" signs.

Redstone

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commotion in here.

:P

silly bunch of flamers ;)

Natives on both sides of the border are pulling up their camp chairs and watching this side-show. This is better than when Pancho Villa and his army were shooting across the border in Nogales and Naco. Citizens on both sides of the border viewed it as entertainment.

Meanwhile the border-crossers only have to change their route to cross the border. And note that these brave vigilante's are only staying on the border, within the comfort of their campers and motorhomes for a 30-day period, long before the temperatures reach the 100+.

The media vans of the major networks have been sidetracked because of the Pope's death and the selection of the new Pope. This will take up most of the 30-days and the internment/spreading of the ashes of Terri Schiavo. If this isn't a tradgedy of comedy, I don't know what it it. Delay and the fundies are running around, pulling thier hair.

Ya gotta be here to really appreciate the humour of it all.

Earlier, I read this article off Yahoo.

<http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050403/ap_on_re_us/border_volunteers>

I posted this earlier, but this thread touches upon the same subject, so I'll add it here, too.

My view is not about one's right to protect their country or property. I looking at it from a standpoint of the reality of what can potentially go wrong here. While many here may have the good intention of merely reporting illegal immigrants, there are many people in this country who have a slightly more aggressive opinion.

While some may not be carrying guns now, there are already groups out there who are. The more people who form groups and do this, the more it becomes acceptable, the more people jump in and then, control is lost. WHo knows what will be going on out there, in the desert, at night where very few people are?

My first thought; what happends when a Mexican (for example) is running across the boarder, is given an order by one of the new volunteer boarder patrol guards to stop running and they don't understand the command. Remember the road block in Iraq? The family didn't understand to stop and the parents were killed in front of the children? WHile our media basically ignored this incident, the foreign press covered it thourally. Do we really want to be putting people in this situation time and again?

What if a "minuteman" accidently kills a child? How will that person ever live with themself?

They were talking about this very same thing on Air America the other day (or last week. I can't remember exactly.) And this is not the first time a group has 'monitored" the boarder before. There have been plenty of dead illegals left in the path of other groups just out to "protect us from the illegals." I can recall hearing of similar groups over the past decade or so.

They say they are simply reporting. The corporate media says they are just reporting. But the potential of a wild west style shoot out against illegals among the NRA set has happened in the past, in Texas I believe, several years ago. This is just a new round.

Out there, in the desert, few witnesses- it just has potential to lead to accidental shootings of people who aren't actually illegal and people who are illegals. Children could be killed. Why would we want to set up that situation?

This whole idea just sounds really bad to me. O am for general gun control, but I believe that law abiding citizens have a right to carry licensed guns that are not concealed.

When will these watchgroups move to other places, like perhaps the innercity? There are illegals there. How will they patrol that? And when will be simpoly become target practice for those who simply have biggotry in their hearts?

The whole thing just doesn't sound like a safe thing to enourage and it terrifies me. Directly from the article, I quote the following:
"It's an exercise some law enforcement authorities and others fear could lead to vigilante violence."

they saw somebody breaking the law....

it was much more likely that the Cops who were KKK would call other KKK people to deal with the problem...that's what happened with the Schwerner case, yes?

It makes it easier to spot the bigots around here.

Don

when the irrational and the hyperbole hit the fan???

I was reading the LAtimes at breakfast this AM and was stunned (not really) to see the official flag of this group being 2/3rds made up of the Confederate Flag. WTF is that about?

Why would a group claiming to defend US borders choose to incluide intheir flag, a flag of a group that wanted to break apart the United States?