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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:41 AM
Original message
Castro signs pope's condolence book:Hundreds of Cubans have gone to the Va
Castro signs pope's condolence book
Hundreds of Cubans have gone to the Vatican Embassy
From Lucia Newman
CNN Havana Bureau Chief

Monday, April 4, 2005 Posted: 10:00 PM EDT (0200 GMT)



Cuban President Fidel Castro signs
condolence book at the Vatican
Embassy; he attended a Jesuit school
as a child.

HAVANA, Cuba (CNN) -- Cuban President Fidel Castro added his name Monday to the long list of Cubans who have signed a condolence book at the Vatican Embassy in Havana after the death of Pope John Paul II.

Dressed in a black suit rather than his usual olive-green uniform, Castro looked emotional as he read out his message: "Your departure pains us, dear friend. We wish with fervor that your example will endure."

John Paul II was the first pope to visit Cuba, and many observers speculated that the pontiff's trip would help spur political change on the island, as it did in Poland, his homeland.

Castro wrote, "The efforts by those who wanted to use your prestige and your enormous spiritual authority against the just cause of our people in their struggle against the giant empire were in vain."
(snip/...)

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/04/04/pope.castro/
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. More...
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/04/04/pope.castro/

"Cuba was officially an atheist country until 1992. While Cuba now permits greater opportunities for religious expression than in past years, there are still restrictions."

Castro sucks. He should be tossed out so people can have more religious freedom.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I dislike Castro too
I look forward to the day when he is out of power (though I oppose the embargo), but in recent years he has allowed more religious freedom for Catholics than is to be found in many Muslim countries, such as our "friends" in Saudi Arabia.
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patricia92243 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. When he is out of power, won't one of his sons take over ad nothing will c
change??
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I have hope that democracy will come to Cuba.
It's a historical inevitability that they will eventually be free, no matter how long the Castro family delays it.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. Free???
Free like Iraq? Or Afghanistan? the USA? Or Pakistan?
What exactly are you talking about?

Free to watch Fox-TV, eat Hamburgers, invade other countries and esp. free from Health-Care and other communist nonsense?


Hello from Germany,
Dirk
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. Free!
Free like Japan, Germany, Canada, France or the United States! Free like Poland, the Czech Republic or South Africa! Heck, I'd even be happier if they were free like Mexico or Brazil.

Yes, when they are free, some Cubans might choose to watch Fox News or BBC, MTV or Telemundo.

And please spare me the tired cliche that the health care trains run on time in Cuba. Choosing between political and economic freedom one one hand and having health care is a false choice. They can have it all.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Some Cubans have satellite dishes at their homes.
A DU'er who posts here who has been to Cuba MANY times helped one of his Cuban friends install one at his house.

Cubans also can receive American commercial tv from Miami, NINETY MILES AWAY. If you don't think it's possible, drive 90 miles from a large city with your portable tv and see if you pick up the signals from Florida, and other islands, Mexico, etc.

Of course they also listen to the radio from everywhere, as well as reading newspapers and magazines. A frequent DU'er poster discovered one of her Cuban friends who lives in Cuba is very acquainted with the names of all the columnists at the Miami Herald, etc. Very interesting.

Also, I believe it was either Senator Pat Roberts or Rep. Dennis Moore, both from Kansas, both of whom have been to Cuba multiple times, who said that he met a Cuba taxi driver whose knowledge of what was going on in our own Congress just knocked him out!

Duplicitous propaganda spinners dare to imagine ALL Americans have to buy their product. It doesn't work that way any more. You can't fool everyone. Just the stupid ones.



http://extras.journalnow.com/cuba/pages/fan.htm
http://extras.journalnow.com/cuba/pages/rasta.htm
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Here's info. on Cuban satellite dishes from a group of rightwing
propaganda pushers, advocates for Radio/TV Marti, which combine to form a black hole consuming around 30,000,000 American taxpayers' dollars YEARLY in order to crank out real crap and a load of devious and sometimes dangerous lies to Cuba:
http://www.bbg.gov
"We Will Succeed" -- BBG Chairman Tomlinson Announces Initiative to Improve Radio and TV Martí Delivery to Cuba
At a press briefing this morning in Miami, Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG) Chairman Kenneth Y. Tomlinson, joined by Office of Cuba Broadcasting Director Pedro Roig and fellow BBG Governor Joaquin Blaya, issued the following statement concerning Radio and Television Martí:

"We have been working diligently to strengthen the signals of Radio and TV Martí, to allow the people of Cuba access to uncensored news and information. As part of this effort, I am pleased to announce that we will soon undertake testing to see if TV Martí can be sent to the Cuban people by satellite. This would allow viewers in Cuba to receive the TV Martí signal via state of the art satellite technology through free-to-air reception. Free-to-air means that the satellite signal is not encrypted and can be viewed by anyone with a dish and an ordinary digital receiver. Radio Martí's signal would also be included in the transmission.

Hispasat will provide a powerful signal with a footprint that fully covers all of Cuba and nearly all of Latin America. Satellite receivers now on the island that are able to receive direct-to-home, free-to-air can be easily tuned to receive the signal. According to various commercial sources, satellite dishes are being used by more and more Cubans, and the numbers continue to rise. Moreover, we expect that as a powerful television signal with reliable, objective news and information becomes available to the Cuban people, it will inevitably find viewers. If we build it, they will come.
(snip/...)
http://www.bbg.gov/printerfr.cfm?articleID=90

(Oh, I forgot. The $30,000,000.00 figure was BEFORE they cooked up this latest scheme. That's bound to get pricey. Miami Cuban right-wing " "exile" extremists provide all the programming, and the staff and suck up all this pork, while cranking out absolute rot for the listening/watching enjoyment of Cubans.

An American Congressman from Colorado, David Skaggs called it what it is: a bunch of ####, and Miami Cuban "exile" Lincoln Diaz-Balart went balistic, told him that he would go after every project he had ever held dear and destroy it, and they did, and bragged about it through the Cuban American National Foundation's funding (some of it acquired, of COURSE, through U.S. taxpayers' generosity) which sponsored taking out ads in Colorado newspapers claiming David Skaggs had lost important projects, and he lost the next election.
These dirty, dirty people brought some filthy politics from the corrupt, overthrown, violent, brutal dictator Batista's government to South Florida, intact.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. "They can have it all." - How about the USA
Edited on Fri Apr-08-05 08:01 AM by Mika
Take a look that numerous threads here on DU revealing the cutoff of healthcare to the poor here in the USA, as well as the extremely low ed rankings here.

Cuba is poor, but Cuba has its priorities in order. Cubans (via their representative government) have chosen to develop their country's social infrastructue first and foremost. What prevents Cuba from expanding it overall wealth is its forced isolation from and by the largest trade partner in the hemisphere - the US. (Not to mention the extraterritorial nature of the US embargo of Cuba as codified by the US Helms-Burton law.)

Maybe Americans prefer their infotainment (Faux, MTV, etc) first, over their citizens health care & education & safety net, but Cubans don't.

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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. But why are books banned? Where are the opposition parties?
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. As I said, take time to educate yourself about Cuba
Edited on Fri Apr-08-05 09:38 PM by Mika
Post #25 is a good place to start.

___


http://home.nvg.org/~aga/bulletin43.html

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. Could you tell us more about the Cuban ban on books?Got a link?
Thanks for your conscientious contribution. The truth is somewhat important, isn't it?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Here's some information from a librarian who visited Cuba
National and Public Libraries


I also visited the National Literacy Museum and the Jose Marti National Library in Havana, provincial public libraries in Havana, Villa Clara, Sancti Spiritus, Ciego de Avila, Camaguey, Las Tunas and Holguin and a municipal public library in Banes. Brief notes, and photographs, of these libraries can be found at Appendix 2. What I found in every case were excellent libraries, staffed by dedicated librarians, offering relevant services to their communities.

Larry Oberg and his group also visited the Jose Marti National Library, as well as provincial public libraries in Havana and Santiago de Cuba and municipal public libraries in Matanzas, Cardinas and Varadero. Here are Larry's views about these libraries :

"The Cuban librarians that I met were, with a few exceptions, highly professional, talented and capable. They are committed to professional excellence and are clearly abreast of current trends in North American and European librarianship.

The Jose Marti National Library and the major provincial and city libraries are busily preparing for automation.

Most of the libraries that we visited have clear collection development policies and standards. The national library collects materials on all topics and does not limit its collections to materials that support the ideology of the Cuban government. They actively solicit, for example, copies of materials published by dissident Cuban authors who reside abroad.

Cuban librarians take their outreach obligations seriously and have invested heavily in bookmobiles and branch libraries in isolated rural locations. They are particularly committed to making library services available to rural Cuban children.

School libraries are ubiquitous in Cuba. Almost all elementary and secondary schools have libraries and librarians (we might compare this to the situation in the US). We spoke at length with a group of second graders in a Matatanzas elementary school who asked bright and intelligent questions of us."

For further information about Larry's trip, contact him at Mark O. Hatfield Library, Williamette University, Salem, Oregon, loberg@williamette.edu.
(snip/)
http://www.cubanlibrariessolidaritygroup.org.uk/article15.html
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Tired of reading? Here's a 4 yr. old photo report: literacy & computer lit
Here's a song which you can find at the bottom of the page of the link: I'm putting it here for easy access:
~~~~ link ~~~~

Here's the interesting site concerning Cuban literacy and early steps into computer literacy on a small national budget:

http://www.communitytechnology.org/cuba/photos.html
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #45
56. Here's an interesting article about a new party in Cuba
which is being developed by former Cuban "exile," Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo, IF Bush will get off his butt, and leave him alone:
Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo threatened by US for living in Cuba


By Anthony Boadle | Reuters

A U.S. resident who had spent 22 years in a Cuban prison for opposing communism and returned to the island to work for democracy now faces a U.S. jail threat for violating travel restrictions.

Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo, a Cuban exile who returned in 2003, has been warned by the U.S. Treasury Department that he could be fined $250,000 or sent to prison for 10 years for staying in Cuba in violation of sanctions intended to isolate the government of Fidel Castro.

"They don't understand: I am not a tourist in Cuba, I am an activist working to establish a legal space for an independent opposition," Gutierrez Menoyo said on Tuesday in an interview.
(snip)

But in August 2003, Gutierrez Menoyo announced on a visit to Cuba that he was staying in Havana to try to open an office for his political group, called Cambio Cubano, and build a moderate opposition to what he calls Castro's "socialist dictatorship."

The Cuban government has not legalized his status, but it tolerates his presence and invited him to a conference on Cuban migration. It renewed his Cuban passport and allowed him to travel twice to the United States.

U.S. authorities did not take lightly to Gutierrez Menoyo's return to Cuba, and froze the bank account of his Miami-based political group.

In November 2004, the U.S. Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control, which enforces sanctions on Cuba, warned him in a letter that he could face prosecution for violating restrictions on travel to Cuba.
(snip/...)
http://havanajournal.com/politics_comments/A3011_0_5_0_M/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. Thank you Judi Lynn!!!!
I welcome and appreciate your research on Cuba. There are a lot of misconceptions about the politics and culture of Cuba, fueled by the right wing Cuban population in Florida.

I Like the fact that Castro has endured so long in this small communist country 90 miles of our borders.

He has survived assassination attempts by the CIA, embargos, end of aid from the Soviet Union, and overt hostility from the USA throughout all these years.

I think of him as the mouse that roared.

Also, I have read that the national parks in Cuba are among the most beautiful and pristine in the tropics, with many species of animals and plants that have gone extinct elsewhere from pollution and development.

I would love to visit them.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Hi, zippy890. Very apt, "the mouse that roared."
I've heard some of the same things about Cuba, too. Not long ago, they discovered a small marsupial in Cuba which doesn't exist anywhere else. You probably remember that, as well as crocodiles and the world's tiniest frog, hummingbirds, and so MANY extraordinary things.

I learned in the last few years there are still a few native Cubans left from the time before Colombus went to Cuba. It has been thought by people outside Cuba that they were ALL killed by disease or abuse, but a few managed to make it to the mountains where they live in a small colony, and are respected and not bothered by the rest of the citizens. Amazing. (I have read that a man who went there to do a study of their culture managed to steal some object(s) which was important to them. How rude and stupid was that?)

I've heard from enthusiastic Canadian visitors to Cuba that they and people from Europe who vacation there really wish it would stay as it is, without Cuba's being overtaken by fast-food joints, trash in the streets, polution, etc. they would have possibly if Cuba's doors were blown wide open when America ends the travel ban.

I've also heard, however, that the Cuban government would be planning carefully for increased numbers of visitors, and would try to stay right on top of things. They really welcome American visitors, contrary to some of the propaganda we've heard: visitors are forced to stay right on the same tourists' roads, not talk to Cubans informally, etc., etc., which is a massive, shameful lie.

Now that many of us are watching Cuba news, we know that the subjects of the travel ban and the embargo come up at least twice a year in Congress, and each year the number of people favoring a better relationship with Cuba increases. It may not be as long as we fear, if Bush is ever pried loose, and carried whining and threatening out of the White House. Jimmy Carter put aside serious travel restrictions, and Ronald Reagan put them back. Bill Clinton eased some restrictions, and Bush tightened them almost completely shut. If the Congress gets a veto proof majority, it won't matter what Bush plans to do about Cuba! :woohoo:
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. No....
Don't mistake a civilized country like Cuba for the U.S.A.
George I, Georg II, Jeb 1,5....

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Come on, you can do better than that
surely there are less quaint reasons why he 'sucks'?
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. How about this report from Human Rights Watch?
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. That is somewhat better
although one might note that with the length of HRW's section on the US, your annoyance is better focused at cleaning up your own house. But no matter, I would like to know how many rights you think you'd have if your country had been under an armed embargo by the world's only superpower for 40 years (which had tried to invade you in that time)? Or is the idea that other countries have the right to govern their affairs free of outside interference and free from being subject to some arbitrary standards imposed by the West so frightening to you?
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. "Only superpower for 40 years" - Inaccurate.
The Soviet Union was a superpower which gave economic subsidies, training and weapons to Cuba in exchange for Cuba becoming a Soviet military colony and a Soviet missile base. The Soviet Union continued to exist until 1991 and that was only fourteen years ago. For the U.S. to be the only superpower for 40 years, the Soviet Union would have had to stop being a superpower in 1965 or so. That would have been fine with me, but that's not the way it turned out.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. Except it ceased being a misslie base or a military
colony long before '91 - around the early 60s in fact. On the other hand, the threat of US invasion was very very real throughout this time period.

9/11 => Patriot Act, so 40 years of blocade => ?
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. Soviet forces were present in Cuba until 1991.
Gorbachev ordered the withdrawal of Soviet forces in 1991.

http://usembassy.state.gov/havana/wwwh0017.html

Cuba's missile capabilities have declined, but Cube has had one of the most advanced air forces in Latin America, thanks to the Soviet influence in Cuba. Cuban MiGs could be in US airspace in minutes. This has actually happened. At least one defector has flown his MiG to the US. Also, the MiGs were used in the 1990s to shoot down civilian aircraft in looking for refugees lost at sea in international waters.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Soviet forces withdrawn from Cuba? Is that right?
Why was it termed a "small contigent of troops?" What about the U.S. forces occupying Guantanamo throughout?
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1991/29/29p17.htm

What significance are you trying to establish?

Concerning the shootdown of the Brother to the Rescue Cessna planes, which had previously flown OVER HAVANA dropping leaflets, religious medallions, and in other times, GRENADES, Jose Basulto, the founder and leader himself being a Cuban "exile" who had been a member of the Bay of Pigs invasion, and a continuing terrorist against Cuba, having himself straffed Cuban passenger trains, they had been WARNED REPEATEDLY. The Cuban government had tried to get the U.S. to reign these bastards in, and forbid them to continue invading Cuban air space. Lots of DU'ers are very aware of this history, and you won't be able to fool them.
Brothers to the Rescue was founded in the early 1990s, when large numbers of Cubans began leaving the island on rafts headed for the US. The group of volunteer pilots patrolled the waters around Cuba looking to rescue the immigrants. But since an agreement between the US and Cuba stemmed the flow of immigrants last year, Brothers to the Rescue has focused on more overtly political actions against the Cuban government. On Jan. 9 and 13 of this year, small planes from Florida dropped leaflets over Miami; an official statement published in the weekly trade union newspaper Trabajadores warned that any future flights would meet with a stronger response from the Cuban government. According to Inter Press Service, Brothers to the Rescue leader Jose Basulto admitted at the time having distributed half a million pamphlets over Havana urging residents to take "nonviolent direct action" against the government of President Fidel Castro .

Retired Adm. Eugene Carroll of the Center for Defense Information said on the night of Feb. 24 that during a visit to Cuba 10 days earlier, Cuban authorities asked him and others in his group how the US government would react if Cuba shot down exile planes that violated Cuban airspace. Carroll said he took the question as an indication that Cuban military officials were considering such an action. He said he told the State Department and the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) about it when he returned.

Carroll was in Cuba Feb. 5-9 leading a delegation of four former US military personnel and two civilians, including former US ambassador to El Salvador Robert White, now with the Center for International Policy. A key focus of their trip was a tour of the partly-finished Juragua nuclear facility in Cienfuegos province. Carroll told the press: "There is nothing in Cuba that threatens US security," and said he and the other delegation members "did everything possible to convince that there is no possibliity the US will invade Cuba."
(snip/...)
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/046.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From Pastors for Peace, an organization of American ministers and laypeople:
  1. A SINGLE WELL-TIMED ACT OF PROVOCATION HAS PUT THE ISSUE OF CUBA RIGHT BACK INTO THE CENTER OF WASHINGTON POLITICAL DEBATE. In this new context, the Helms/Burton bill is being rushed to a vote in Congress. It is clear that the majority of the Senate considers the bill excessive, unenforceable, and an affront to both the U.S. business community and our international trading partners. But Congress will likely pass the bill anyway, given the current climate in Washington. The newly-strengthened version of the bill will make the U.S. blockade of Cuba even harder to lift. We pray that the bill will be defeated, and we urge all possible work to this end.

  2. WE DO NOT CONSIDER BROTHERS TO THE RESCUE A "HUMANITARIAN" ORGANIZATION. It was founded in the office of the notorious Cuban American National Foundation. It is directed by an "ex"-CIA agent who was involved in the Bay of Pigs invasion and the contra war in Nicaragua. Along with Radio Marti propaganda, it helped to stimulate the exodus of thousands of rafters who risked (and often lost) their lives to leave Cuba.

  3. THE FLYOVER ON FEBRUARY 24 WAS JUST ONE IN A SERIES OF 1700 MISSIONS OF VIOLATION OF CUBAN TERRITORY BY BROTHERS TO THE RESCUE. Their flights have been part of a tradition of hostile penetration of Cuban territory that goes back 33 years. In 1971, a Cessna flew over Havana scattering grenades that killed eight people. Cessnas from Miami have sprayed phosphorus on sugar fields; bombed sugar cane mills and tourist hotels; dropped off weapons, explosives, and infiltrators on Cuban territory; scattered leaflets urging people to rise up against their government; buzzed parks and residential neighborhoods to intimidate common citizens. All these attacks were carried out by mercenary Cessnas, not by military planes.

  4. Every attack on Cuba since the Bay of Pigs has been made by so-called "civilian" vehicles. Cuba has submitted reports on 25 specific incursions from Florida into Cuban territory in the last 20 months. These have been reported through all appropriate diplomatic channels, to both the U.S. government and the International Civil Aeronautics Agency. The U.S. government has been well aware that planes from Florida have been violating U.S. aviation regulations and international law. But nothing has been done to stop or sanction the violators. The U.S. government has a responsibility not to harbor terrorists. But Brothers to the Rescue is still being allowed to operate from the U.S. -- even though it has broken national and international laws and regulations. Up until now, the Cubans have reacted to these repeated violations with restraint. The incursions have continued and increased. Cuba might well have assumed that the U.S. was tolerating an escalation of terrorism, since nothing was being done to stop it. The Brothers to the Rescue pilots chose to ignore repeated warnings -- not only that they were in Cuban airspace, but that they were flying over a restricted military zone. (Public records show that a military airport and a naval base are in the area. How many times would a foreign and hostile Cessna be allowed to fly over a U.S. military base?)

  5. CONFUSING CAUSE AND EFFECT. According to international law, any nation whose territory is violated has the right to self-defense -- in the same way that an individual has the right to say no to a molester. We are not unconditionally defending Cuba's actions on 2/24, and we deeply regret the loss of lives. But we feel strongly that if Brothers to the Rescue had not violated international law on 2/24, pilots' lives would not have been lost. If there were no U.S. economic blockade of Cuba, then Saturday's events would never have happened. If relations between our two nations were normalized, there would be no pretext for fly-overs or other terrorist provocations. The U.S. is not at war with Cuba. U.S. citizens are not well served by letting our foreign policy be dictated by the special interests of a small number of self-interested provocateurs in Miami.

  6. WE ARE CALLING ON CHURCHES AND RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS, AND ALL PEOPLE OF GOOD WILL, TO JOIN US IN A VIGIL OF PRAYER, REFLECTION, AND FASTING DURING THIS LENTEN SEASON. We are praying for reason in Washington; we are asking our leaders not to be consumed by this new wave of vengeance. Matthew 17:21 says that there are some kinds of evil that only come out by prayer and fasting. We are deeply conscious of the suffering which has been inflicted on 11 million Cuban neighbors by our government's meanspirited policy.
    (snip/...)


http://www.cubasolidarity.net/planes2.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


New York Times Letter to the Editor: An Illegal Action?
"The Cuban Shootdown" (New York Times, Feb. 27, 1996) cites unspecified "civil aviation conventions" as authorizing the penetration of Cuban airspace by low performance aircraft chartered by Cuban political activists.

But the Chicago Convention of 1944, Article 3, not only excludes "state aircraft" from its purview, but says that aircraft used in military services "shall be deemed to be state aircraft."

I know of no other international aviation convention that is even arguably pertinent. It is possible to argue that dropping political leaflets and supporting a foreign country's political dissidents is not "military," as the term might be strictly construed, but neither is it "civil," as that term might be equally construed.

The intent of the parties to the convention was to encourage air transportation by "general aviation": corporate executives, vacationers and so on.

If it were construed to allow political overflights, Cuban aircraft would presumably be free to drop electioneering material in, say, Wilmington, N.C., when Senator Jesse Helms is running for re-election.

There are many other legal factors to be weighed before taking as firm a position as you seem to encourage.

For example, if the United States knowingly allows its territory to be used as a base for "irregulars" to commit acts of armed force against Cuba, questions of "aggression" under a definition adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1974 would have to be discussed.

The "inherent right" of self-defense has often been argued by the United States to rest on international practices accepted as law since 1837, when a British anticipatory incursion into New York State provoked diplomatic correspondence.

The United Nations Charter's apparent limitation of that "inherent" right to cases of an "armed attack" might even be met in the Cuba case; and if not, questions of the authority of the United Nations Security Council would be raised.

An analogy to the Soviet downing of Korean Air Lines Flight 007 in 1983 is not appropriate, since that aircraft was a clearly civil aircraft, while the Brothers to the Rescue flight was one in a series of political actions, and its flight plan was deliberately false. It is too early to condemn the Cuban action as illegal, just as it is too early to support it.

Alfred P. Rubin
Prof. of International Law Tufts University Medford, Mass.
Feb. 28, 1996

http://www.cubasolidarity.net/planes2.html
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. Guantanamo
Nice cut and paste. Thanks.

The 1934 treaty that FDR negotiated to lease Guantanamo was a major achievement for FDR. Castro is trying to undo FDR's legacy, which another reason why he sucks.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #29
38. So you actually think Cuba is a threat to the US?
You really really think Cuban MIGs could attack the US? Considering that their most advanced attack plane is the Mig-23, that is pretty funny stuff.
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. My searches on the internet find that Cuba had MiG-29s.
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Cuba's main threat would be from missiles, WMD or terror.
Without the Soviets' support, their conventional military is much less of a threat to the US, Africa and the Caribbean.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. Africa and the Carribean????!!
You mean the Africa and Carribean that has for years now been the recipient of Cuba's generosity and goodwill when it comes to medicines and doctors? ROTFL!
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. I mean Cuba's dangerous military adventures.
In Grenada and Angola for example.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. For DU'ers who'd like to look at the history of the U.S. in Angola
Edited on Sat Apr-09-05 02:16 PM by Judi Lynn
this is a helpful site:
  • Castro decided to send troops to Angola on November 4, 1975, in response to the South African invasion of that country, rather than vice versa as the Ford administration persistently claimed;

  • The United States knew about South Africa's covert invasion plans, and collaborated militarily with its troops, contrary to what Secretary of State Henry Kissinger testified before Congress and wrote in his memoirs.

  • Cuba made the decision to send troops without informing the Soviet Union and deployed them, contrary to what has been widely alleged, without any Soviet assistance for the first two months.
(snip)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Testifying before Congress in 1976, Kissinger stated "We had no foreknowledge of South Africa's intentions, and in no way cooperated militarily." In Years of Renewal Dr. Kissinger also denied that the United States and South Africa had collaborated in the Angolan conflict; Gleijeses' research demonstrates that they did. The book quotes Kissinger aide Joseph Sisco conceding that the Ford administration "certainly did not discourage" South Africa's intervention, and presents evidence that the CIA helped the South Africans ferry arms to key battlefronts. Contrary to what Kissinger alleges in his memoirs, the first Cuban military advisers did not arrive in Angola until late August 1975, and the Cubans did not participate in the fighting until late October, after South Africa had invaded. The book also reproduces portions of a declassified memorandum of conversation between Kissinger and Chinese leader Teng Hsiao-p'ing to show that China had refused U.S. entreaties to continue participating in Angola because of South Africa's involvement, not because the U.S. Congress refused to allocate further funding for the covert war, as Kissinger claimed.
(snip/...)

In assessing the motivations of Cuba's foreign policy, Cuba's relations with the Soviet Union, and the nature of the Communist threat in Africa, Gleijeses shows that CIA and INR intelligence reports were often sophisticated and insightful, unlike the decisions of the policymakers in Washington.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Summaries of the Cuban documents, and several declassified U.S. records relating to Cuba and Africa, follow......
(snip)
Document 4

December 3, 1975, White House Memorandum of Conversation with Chinese Officials, “The Soviet Union; Europe; the Middle East; South Asia; Angola” (Document obtained by National Security Archive, from National Archives Record Group 59. Records of the Department of State, Policy Planning Staff, Director’s Files (Winston Lord), 1969-1977, Box 373).
This conversation between President Gerald Ford, Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and Chinese Vice Premier Teng Hsiao-p’ing demonstrates that high-ranking Chinese officials refused U.S. entreaties to continue their participation in Angola because of South Africa’s involvement. Vice Premier Teng states, “As I mentioned to you just now, the primary problem is the involvement of South Africa. If you can get South Africa out of Angola as soon as possible, or find some other means to replace South Africa on the southern front, this would be good. We are in no position to help except in the north through Zaire.” Kissinger later argued in his memoirs, Years of Renewal (p. 893), that the reason behind the end of Chinese involvement was the U.S. Congress’ refusal to continue funding the covert war.


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB67/gleijeses4.pdf

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


As DU'ers know, in this situation, the U.S. under Ford, fought on the side WITH South Africa. Nelson Mandela has praised Cuba with absolute gratitude for aiding the people struggling against Apartheid, and assisted them in securing a semblance of freedom from that tyranny.



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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. Ollie North, Reagan, apartheid, and Jonas Savimbi of UNITA just LOVED
each other
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. You might find this David Corn article a stroll down Reagan memory lane
David Corn: 66 (Unflattering) Things About Ronald Reagan

David Corn, in his blog at http://www.bushlies.com/blog/ reprints his article from The Nation, 6 June 1998



The firing of the air traffic controllers, winnable nuclear war, recallable nuclear missiles, trees that cause pollution, Elliott Abrams lying to Congress, ketchup as a vegetable, colluding with Guatemalan thugs, pardons for F.B.I. lawbreakers, voodoo economics, budget deficits, toasts to Ferdinand Marcos, public housing cutbacks, redbaiting the nuclear freeze movement, James Watt.

Getting cozy with Argentine fascist generals, tax credits for segregated schools, disinformation campaigns, “homeless by choice,” Manuel Noriega, falling wages, the HUD scandal, air raids on Libya, “constructive engagement” with apartheid South Africa, United States Information Agency blacklists of liberal speakers, attacks on OSHA and workplace safety, the invasion of Grenada, assassination manuals, Nancy’s astrologer.

Drug tests, lie detector tests, Fawn Hall, female appointees (8 percent), mining harbors, the S&L scandal, 239 dead U.S. troops in Beirut, Al Haig “in control,” silence on AIDS, food-stamp reductions, Debategate, White House shredding, Jonas Savimbi, tax cuts for the rich, “mistakes were made.”

Michael Deaver’s conviction for influence peddling, Lyn Nofziger’s conviction for influence peddling, Caspar Weinberger’s five-count indictment, Ed Meese ("You don’t have many suspects who are innocent of a crime"), Donald Regan (women don’t “understand throw-weights"), education cuts, massacres in El Salvador.
(snip/...)

http://www.spectrezine.org/resist/reagan.htm
(third article, around half-way down the page)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Looking around for more info., found this article, containing some points I'd never heard:
Monday, 25 February, 2002, 15:32 GMT
Obituary: Jonas Savimbi, Unita's local boy

By Chris Simpson
Former BBC correspondent in Angola

Fighting against an Angolan Government which deployed thousands of Cuban troops and enjoyed strong support from the former Soviet Union, Unita's cause was taken up by apartheid South Africa and by the United States under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush senior.
(snip)

Savimbi formed Unita after failing to find common ground with other nationalist movements, notably the Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA).

Savimbi's critics say Unita's military campaigns against the Portuguese regime were fictitious and later published documents linking Savimbi to Portuguese intelligence, suggesting he was a paid informer.
(snip)

Savimbi, once a self-proclaimed Maoist, described Unita as having embarked on its own "long march" at this point, recovering slowly from defeat and betrayal to rediscover itself as a movement, drawing on the courage of a few dozen survivors.

But Unita's survival owed much to its alliance with South Africa, which remained at war with Angola for much of the next 15 years, and to the US.
(snip)

Unita drifted back to war following the 1994 peace
The conflict which followed was infinitely worse than anything which had gone before, with thousands of civilians perishing.
(snip)

A former backer in Washington once conceded ruefully: "Savimbi is probably the most brilliant man I've ever met, but he's also dangerous, even psychotic".
(snip/)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/264094.stm



Moxico, Angola Jonas Savimbi One of Africa's most
notorious traitors, a cia backed counter-revolutionary
, terrorist and murderer of hundreds of thousands of African
Peoples is dead, and not far from where he was killed, he
was buried.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #53
61. A grimly amusing reference to Reagan's grand adventure in Grenada
......when Hezbollah terrorists struck and murdered hundreds of American marines in their sleep in Lebanon, the TV warrior ran away like a whipped dog ... then turned around and invaded Grenada. That little Club Med war was a murderous PR stunt so Ronnie could hold parades for gunning down Cubans building an airport.
(snip/...)
http://www.spectrezine.org/resist/reagan.htm

As Bill O'Reilly would ask, cocking his Idaho baking potato-shaped head: What say you?
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #53
66. Great research, Judi Lynn
Most excellent indeed.

Most Americans are unaware that Cuba went (alone) into Angola after the US. On the side of justice, I might add.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. I've got your Grenada story.....
Edited on Sat Apr-09-05 02:28 PM by Judi Lynn
No evidence was found that there was a terrorist training base on Grenada or that Cubans intended to take over the island. Reporters who examined the warehouses cited by the president said there were Soviet-made weapons and ammunition but that the warehouses were no more than half full and many of the weapons out-of-date. Whether the Americans were in danger remained in dispute after this war of a few days was over. A New York Times report stated, "Several assertions offered by officials as evidence that the danger justified the invasion have proven to be inaccurate." (New York Times, 11/6/83)
(snip/...)
http://www.teachablemoment.org/high/callsforwar.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Dangerous, all right. Dangerous clowns with too much time on their hands in the Reagan administration.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #29
41. U.S. ex-C.I.A. agent,Phillip Agee touches on the illegal flights over Cuba
Seeing the obvious, that the U.S. government was not taking action to stop Miami-based terrorism, the Cubans opted in the 1990's to send their own intelligence officers to Florida under cover as exiles to provide warnings on coming terrorist actions. There they infiltrated some of the exile groups and were reporting back to Havana, including information on planned illegal over-flights of Cuba by Brothers to the Rescue.

>>>Still, the Cuban government hoped that the U.S. could be convinced to take action against Miami-based terrorists. So in 1998 Cuba delivered to the FBI voluminous information they had collected on U.S.-based terrorist activities against Cuba. But instead of taking action against the terrorists, the FBI then arrested 10 members of a Cuban intelligence network whose job was to infiltrate the terrorist organizations. Later the 5 Cuban intelligence officers running the network were tried in Miami, where conviction was guaranteed, for conspiracy to commit espionage and for not having registered as agents of a foreign power. They had never asked for nor received a classified government document or classified information of any kind, yet they were given draconian sentences, one of them two life terms. The inhuman treatment of these unbending prisoners ordered by Washington, designed to destroy them mentally and physically and turn them against Cuba, sets world records for sordid, deranged punishment. Demand for their freedom is the main political topic in Cuba today.<<<
(snip/...)
http://www.wicuba.org/ageearticle.html

I think the man probably knows what he's saying.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. So, you want a theocracy for Cuba, I see.
Religious freedom? There is in Cuba.

Been there. Seen it.






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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Theocracy? No. Democracy? Yes!
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Maybe you should take time to educate yourself
Its easy to regurgitate US propaganda about an island that our own government bans us from seeing freely. Not so easy to accept that Cuba has moved forward while the US moves backward.


Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm
This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.


--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo
1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.


The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books



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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Favoring democracy over theocracy is "US propaganda"?
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. No. Your comments on religion and democracy in Cuba is. n/t
Edited on Fri Apr-08-05 07:48 AM by Mika
You continue to claim that there is no democracy in Cuba. You claim that there is little religious freedom in Cuba.

Neither is true.

Take as much time to educate yourself about the real Cuba as you have researching US based sources of anti Cuba propaganda.

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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
52. Same leader for decades = no democracy.
His election results are about as relevant as Saddam Hussein's or Mubarak's.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #52
65. That's some educating you've done for yourself
ROTFLMAO!

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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #65
67. You are so blind to reality!
I laugh at you!
:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. I've actaully seen Cuban elections in person.
Edited on Sun Apr-10-05 08:33 AM by Mika
I've been to Cuba many times (legally) for long durations, including during the entire 1997-98 election season.

Go ahead and laugh all you want, but it is a laugh based in your own blind ignorance of the subject of Cuban politics.

To suggest that the Cuban people are not capable of determining their own future, and/or that one man has ruled Cuba with an iron fist for 40+ years against their will, is outright ignorant & blatantly bigoted.

The Cuban people have proven, historically, their ability to quite readily overthrow any government of Cuba, including the brutal, fully US government and US organized crime backed Batista. To think that Cubans have just sat back after the revolution and allowed themselves to be dictated to is absurd. And an insult.

Does Castro force one of the best education systems with the highest literacy rate on Cuba's children? Does Castro force one of the best universal health care systems on the Cuban people, resulting in the lowest infant mortality rate and the highest longevity rate in the West? Does Castro force the Cuban people to submit to a representative parliamentary democratic system?

If you believe that Castro forces this on the Cuban people, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.


Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to do so. Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to do so, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.



Again, post #25 is a good place for you to start some real investigation.

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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Edited on Sun Apr-10-05 09:34 AM by James T. Kirk
I'm laughing I'll I want!

Let's check back in a few years when Castro is dead. Then we'll see that the whole world reconginzes that he was bad - just like the Russian commies, the Romanian commies, the Albanian commies, the East German commies and the Polish commies.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. Great argument.LOL
Edited on Sun Apr-10-05 09:47 AM by Mika
I'm basing what I say on both personal experience and a great deal of research on Cuba.

You seem to be basing what you say on conjecture, red herring and straw man arguments (most of which have been shot down on this very thread).

Oh well. :shrug:

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. You forgot Uzbekistan!


January 17 / 18, 2004

Meet Our New Saddam
Introducing Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan
By SADIK H. KASSIM

Introducing Islam Karimov, one of Washington's most recent allies in the War on Terror. The neo-Stalinist autocrat presides over Uzbekistan, a vast mineral and oil rich country strategically located in central Asia. A country where dissidents are boiled alive (1); where having an Islamically sanctioned beard can get you arrested (2); where torture is widespread. In short, a country where human rights abuses are occurring on "a massive scale," (3) financed in part by the American taxpayer.
(snip)

Uzbekistan's cooperation with Washington has not gone unrewarded. In March 2002, Messrs Bush and Karimov formally met for 45 minutes in the White House. The meeting produced a five point strategic partnership between the two countries. Among other things, in exchange for continued use of Khanbad, the agreement granted Uzbekistan $500 million in aid and credit guarantees (6), $25 million for military assistance, $18 million for "border security assistance", and $1 million in policing assistance (7). These concessions were made to one of America's "foremost partners in the fight against terrorism (8)" despite the State Department's own declaration that, "Uzbekistan is an authoritarian state with a very poor human rights record (9)."

According to the Human Rights Watch (HRW) 2003 World Report3, the Karimov led government violates, on a systematic level, basic rights "to freedom of religion, expression, association and assembly." HRW notes that Karimov has used the pretext of the "War on Terror", to pursue a campaign whose aim is to squelch opposition. Specifically, the government has arrested and tortured thousands of independent Muslims, including minors. HRW and other human rights organizations estimate that there are between 7,000 and 10,000 prisoners held on religious and political charges. Most recently, forensic evidence has been revealed suggesting that Karimov's government boiled to death two Muslim prisoners after they refused to stop praying.
(snip/...)
http://www.counterpunch.org/kassim01172004.html



Want to see how people tortured to death REALLY look? Take a long GOOD look:

http://www.thenausea.com/elements/uzbekistan/tortures.html
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Thanks! I'm always fogetting about Uzbekistan!
Those neo-Stalinist are total wankers, but we were allied with the actual Stalinists at one point. I'm glad that alliance with Stalin and his murderous regime to defeat a greater enemy was shortlived. It was a wise and hard choise for Roosevelt to make.

But, as long as were all agree Stalinists are bad. But wait...wasn't Stalin buddy-buddy with Kruschev and then wasn't Kruschev in cahoots with that Castro dude back in the day?

:-)

So, if Karimov is a bad guy, wouldn't Castro be one too?
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
51. Don't Confuse Religious Freedom With Religious Power Games
Missionaries don't just save souls, they open up markets.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
6. Funny really, considering their record
One of them funds the fight against AIDS and helps Africa free of charge: http://www.iacenter.org/cuba_aids.htm

The other actively enables the catastrophe: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1451484,00.html

no prizes for guessing who's who!
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Thank you...(i don't have to guess, i know)
some have swallowed, some purposely perpetuate. again, no prizes for guessing who's who.
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MileHiStealth Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Keep in mind too ... Bill Clinton's foundation .....
fights AIDS on an international level , while
the Bushie's Carlisle Group .... hmmm ....
profits from wars, death and destruction ...
It's a Culture of Life thing ...
I just don't understand ...
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
7.  Castro attends Pope funeral Mass
(Not actually the funeral Mass but a Mass in Cuba)

President Fidel Castro has made a rare visit to the Catholic cathedral in the Cuba's capital Havana to attend a funeral Mass for Pope John Paul II.

He praised the Pontiff as a "tireless fighter for friendship among peoples" and a friend of the poor.

He said the Pope would be remembered by Cubans for speaking out against the US trade embargo of the island.

Cuba, which was officially atheist until 1992, has begun three days of national mourning.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4411773.stm
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. It is important to remember that the Pope
is not just a religious title, he is also a Head of State, and it is a state that is older than many in this world. It may be small in size, but it is massive in influence, and stretches all round the world.

Where people see "hypocrisy" I see basic, simple government-to government protocol. Also, the Pope took the time to visit Cuba, he wasn't a total asshole to Castro like some, many Cubans are Catholic, and ole Fidel is simply acknowledging that fact.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Its a fair point
and it bears remembering that the Cuban Catholic church expressly refused to agitate against Castro when offered US funds to do so...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. That's really too much! Tried to bribe the Cuban Catholic church, too!
Well, they've surely spent megabucks similarly already on the pretend "independent journalists" and "librarians" who rake it in by the millions, with the U.S. taxpayers' unknown blessings!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. The Pope is getting his revenge
Chimpy is going to be seated close to President Khatemi of Iran at the funeral mass. And he has NO SAY in the seating decision. If he doesn't like his seat, he can go stand out in the piazza!

Might just ruin all those swell shots he was hoping to make hay on...!

I love the smell of irony in the morning!
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Someone knew what he was doing. Outstanding. Hope there will be photos.


I wonder if he'll act this strange as he passes by President Khatemi. He looks as if he's afraid the other will pull a knife or gun on him. He truly looks as if he thinks Chavez will nail him. Guilty conscience!

I wonder if there's anyone outside the States who REALLY can stand him?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I think 'someone' may well have been the Pope himself
Like other heads of state, the Pope started working on his own funeral about a year after he was elevated to the Papacy. Over the years, they on occasion pull out the plan, dust it off, update it, make changes, and so on. I can't help but feel the Papal hand on the seating plan, probably revised the last time he came out of Gemelli.

Imagine, having to sit so close to the leader of a nation that he termed a charter member of the AXIS OF EVIL. Pity Kooky Kim from North Korea wasn't attending, they could have made an AXIS sandwich!

I think this is the Pope's way of saying, from the grave, that words matter!
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
39. Don't forget the CIA & the Catholic Church's op - Pedro Pan
Operation Peter Pan
http://www.media-alliance.org/mediafile/19-5/peterpan.html

Church and States plot with Cuban children
http://republican-news.org/archive/1998/January20/22worl.html
(scroll down the page to see this story)

Cuban-Americans struggle with memories of childhood airlifts
Operation Pedro Pan left many stranded in U.S.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9801/12/pedro.pan/

Operation Pedro Pan, Then and Now
http://www.eyelandpub.com/eyelandpub/pedropan/index.htm

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Imagine! Your first link mentions Americans have been kept in the dark
about Cuba:
Because the U.S. embargo is not only a blockade of food and medicine but also a stranglehold on the transmission of information, I was suffering from a similar sort of ignorance when it came to the lives of these Cubans. Together we created impromptu information exchanges. And through these friendships I learned of a Cuba rarely covered in the U.S. media. I met people who had volunteered in the 1961 Literacy Campaign when one hundred thousand Havana residents moved to the countryside to teach the peasants to read. Several volunteers were murdered by counterrevolutionary peasants who, most Cubans believe, were paid by the CIA. I heard a trova or political folk singer criticize Fidel Castro at the National Symphony. I met a doctor who had been living in Africa along with thousands of other Cuban physicians who offered free medical care to the poor. And I learned about Operation Peter Pan. This story has parallels to the Elian crisis and perhaps at one time could have elicited similarly strong emotions, but it is a story that even today, nearly 40 years later, remains locked away in the confidential files of the CIA.
(snip/...)
http://www.media-alliance.org/mediafile/19-5/peterpan.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


A lot of ground was covered in a small space in that article.
People aren't going to learn more about Cuba until they learn they don't know much, actually, if they are going on the propaganda fed us since childhood.

I know what that's like. I bought it all, too, until I started paying attention!

Thanks.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
15.  Castro Praises Pope for Defense of Poor
Castro Praises Pope for Defense of Poor

Tuesday April 5, 2005 9:46 PM

By VANESSA ARRINGTON
Associated Press Writer

HAVANA (AP) - President Fidel Castro's praise of Pope John Paul II and his attendance at a Mass in the pontiff's honor - a rare sighting of the Cuban leader inside a church - filled the front pages of the island's state-run newspapers Tuesday.

Roman Catholic officials in Cuba have expressed gratitude and even surprise at the communist government's response to the pope's death. Anniversary celebrations for political organizations and baseball games were canceled and all bars and nightclubs closed as the government observed three days of mourning.
(snip)

The Cuban president, dressed in a dark suit and tie, later traveled to the Havana cathedral for the Mass celebrated by the island's highest-ranking Roman Catholic prelate, Cardinal Jaime Ortega.
Thousands filled the towering cathedral and an adjacent plaza for the elaborate ceremony, which lasted nearly two hours. Ortega shook hands with Castro before approaching the pulpit to deliver the homily for John Paul.
(snip)

Cuba never broke ties with the Vatican, even when the island was officially atheist after the 1959 revolution that brought Castro to power. The government removed references to atheism in the constitution in 1991 and allowed religious believers to join the Communist Party.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4915733,00.html


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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
18. Say what you will
What Castro wrote of the pope was very nice and very respectful.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 05:47 AM
Response to Original message
22. Little known facts about the Pope and Mexico!
Just ran across them in a google search:
His first trip outside the Vatican as pope was in early 1979 to Mexico, which for more than half a century was ruled by vehemently anti-clerical regimes.

Under pain of prison, nuns were forbidden to wear habits and priests could not appear in a cassock and Roman collar outside what church property had not already been confiscated by the government. But when hundreds of bishops and priests began arriving at Mexico City airport from other countries in clerical garb, the local clergy took courage from some of the first words the new pope had uttered from St. Peter's balcony: "Be not afraid."

They suddenly appeared on the streets in full religious regalia _ "prayerfully defiant," as my college classmate Bishop John McGann from Brooklyn quipped _ and the government did nothing. Except for some police, who cautiously blessed themselves when the pope passed, just as police did some years later when John Paul II set foot in former altar boy Fidel Castro's Cuba.
(snip)
http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=1015351&tw=wn_wire_story

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Pope in Mexico
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
30. My favorite Castro quote...
"To deny the poor is to deny Christ" yeah, Fidel gets it. So did JP II....

both came out of "liberation theology"... I seem to remember John Paul II saying to his flock of Cardinals something to the effect of "Marxism has many good points that should not be forgotten..." Anyone know the exact quote?
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
33. Is it just me or has Castro mellowed with age?
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #33
57. Not surprising...
he certainly isnt a young man anymore.
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hector459 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
46. Castro is one of my public heros. I'd take him over Bush any day.
Sorry.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
49. Good article some DU'ers might find interesting.....
Couple of worthwhile snippets:
...criticism should never ignore the fact that Cuba's primary service to the world has been to provide living proof that it is possible to conquer poverty, disease and illiteracy in a country that was grossly over-familiar with all three. That is a pretty big service. The fact that it has been delivered in the face of sustained hostility from an obsessive neighbour makes it all the more stunning.
(snip)

Those who think that Cuba will roll over and be trampled on when Castro eventually goes are, I believe, grossly mistaken. Cuba will continue to evolve pragmatically, as it has done beneath the rhetoric for 40 years, in order to defend the integrity of its achievements. The tragedy is that the evolutionary process - not least in regard to the liberal freedoms - could be so much more rapid and comfortable, if only the US would learn to co-exist a little more graciously.

Given Florida's status as a hair's-breadth deliverer of Republican power, that is probably a vain hope. Yet the contradictions of the US position, in terms of its own rational self-interest, are so extreme as to demand reappraisal. Even the Bush administration has had to ask itself how, while engaged everywhere else in its holy war against terrorism, it can sustain the outrageous Cuban Adjustment Act, which gives haven as political refugees to anyone, including hijackers, who reaches American shores for any reason from Cuba.
(snip/...)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/cuba/story/0,11983,1030632,00.html
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