China rocked by second day of anti-Japanese rallies, Japan protests

I have no sympathy for the Japanese in this matter. What they did to the Chinese and the Koreans from the late 1890's through the end of the 2nd World War is one of the most barbaric acts in history. However, as far as China is concerned, their government is no better. Their treatment of dissidents, of the People of Tibet and their attempts to try and lay historical claim to Korean land, both North and South is just as outrageous.

from the imperialist countries of the 19th century. All of the Euro-American empires used force to keep their reluctant subjects in line

Europeans came along and without their help. One only need to look at the way Japan attempted to subjegate the Koreans in the 14th and 15th Centuries. The Japanese brutal repression of Korea in the early 1500's that ended for a brief period at the end of the century courtesy of their defeat at the hands of Admiral Yi Sun Shin in 1597 is legendary in eastern Asia. I live in Korea. Japanese (Chinese and Mongolian) repression pre-date the Europeans.

that lasted for more than 200 years. They were quite content to stay out of everyone's way, from the 1630s until the time Matthew Perry came and opened up the country in the early 1850s.

And what was the world like in the 1850s? America was claiming "manifest destiny" in gobbling up as much land from indigenous peoples as possible. The British were busy selling opium to China after having "won" the right to do so in the previous decade, and were merrily adding to their empire on every continent. The French were wanting to relive the "glory days" of the first Napoleon by installing his grandson as their emperor to replace the Second Republic, and build their own empire that would rival Britain's. The Dutch had their empires in the East and West Indies, and were not too popular with the locals, especially in the East (Indonesia). Russia (or "the Russias") was also busy building its own empire with brute force.

After Perry's meddling with Japan, many Japanese realized that in order to avoid the same fate that had befallen China, they had to play the West's modernization and empire-building games. Starting in the late 1860s, they brought in numerous Americans and Europeans to teach them the "ways of the West". Then in 1894, a year after American businessmen had ousted the Queen of Hawaii, Japan embarked upon its own empire building with the first Sino-Japanese war of 1894-95.

If I am reading correctly what you are writing, you seem to be essentially blaming the west and it's influence for the atrocities committed by the Japanese -- as if they learned them from the west.
If this is the case, then I must vehemently disagree with you. The Japanese military (the Chinese Government and the Mongols) had been committing attrocities on this continent long before they had any interaction with the west.
Probably one of the best examples of Japanese aggression against Korea occurred throughout most of the 16th Century, culminating with their utter devastating defeat by the Koreans during the "Seven Years War." The murder, kidnapping and raping of thousands of civilian Koreans in an attempt to intimidate Koreans into surrender is just a small example of the many crimes committed by the Japanese from 1592-1598.
The Japanese are no better, or worse, in their treatment of other Asian societies than the west has been toward other western societies. I don't blame western society for what the Japanese did, I blame the Japanese. And I find abhorent their attempt to deny the crimes they committed from 1910-1945 and their attempt to spin the facts from being a ruthless aggressor to a benevolent patriarch.

Japan never controlled Korea until the late Meiji era (1868-1912). There were Japanese pirates who were causing trouble until the beginning of the Joseon Dynasty in the 1300s, but after they were put down, three trading ports were opened to the Japanese fuedal lords. The brutal rulers of Korea during this period were the Koreans themselves.

It was not until the 1590s that Japan actually tried to invade Korea, after first seeking Korea's help in invading China. It was a half-assed effort at best, hardly what one would expect from a country that had "mastered the art of empire-building". The Japanese did, however, destroy a lot of things in Korea during Taketomi Hideyoshi's invasion. But when Tokugawa Ieyasu took control of Japan after the Battle of Sekigahara in 1600, he sought peaceful relations with Korea and the Joseon Dynasty

http://www.korea.net/korea/kor_loca.asp?code=A030701

http://www.korea.net/korea/kor_loca.asp?code=A030702

For all intents and purposes, the Tokugawa rulers left Korea alone. Instead, they turned their attention to the Europeans who were coming in increasing numbers to not only trade, but also to proselytize. The Portuguese and Spanish were the worst at this, but the British were also getting on the Shoguns' nerves. Moreover, the Japanese were afraid that the Europeans were going to try to turn their country into a colony. So in 1638 the Shogun declared that Japan would be closed to the rest of the world. An exception was made for the Dutch, but even then they were limited to two sites off the coast of the island of Kyushu. This self-imposed isolation was to last until Matthew Perry opened the country in 1854.

After the Meiji Restoration of 1868, Japan set upon an aggressive program of modernization and militarization. Japan did not want to be subjected to the same fate as China, and decided to play the West's game of imperialism. Americans and Europeans were invited to Japan to teach about new technologies and military tactics. In the 1870s, Japan once again showed an interest in Korea, and was encouraged by the United States to pursue an "open-door" policy with that country. Eventually, especially after its success against China in the 1894-95 war, Japan began to increasingly consider itself as having "special interests" in Korea, and even signed an agreement with Great Britain in 1902 in which the two parties pledged mutual defense of their respective interests in China and Korea.

http://www.russojapanesewar.com/ang-jap.html

Since I live in Korea and am using the National History Museum for my sources I think my history is quite sound.
To begin with, they had been harassing the Koreans throughout most of the of the 16th Century, beginning around 1520 (Source: Korean National Historical Museum).I'll give that one to you. Because it does not directly say the that the Japanese Government launched these harassing attacks, nor does it ever say they tried to invade. But, it is clear from Admiral Yi Sun-shin's journals that he felt these harrassing attacks were an attempt to systematically weaken the Koreans ability to defend against an actual invasion.
As to your assertion that the Japanese invasion was half-assed at best, I would suggest you check your history.
A brief note about the Korean Victory over the Japanese, "On September 16, 1597, he (Yi Sun Shin) led 12 salvaged ships against 133 Japanese ships in the Myongnyang Straits. The Koreans sank 31 enemy ships and forced a Japanese retreat."
The navy admiral of Chosun Dynasty (now Korea) who led the battle of Hansando; one of the four greatest naval battles in history prior to the World War I. The other three battles include the battle of Salamis; led by Greek admiral Themistocles against Persians in 480BC, the battle of Calais; led by British admiral lord Howard against Spanish in 1588 and the battle of Trapalgar led by British admiral lord Nelson against French-Spanish alliance in 1805.
Victories in half-assed attacks don't make the list of greatest military victories.
And I might add you still fail to address my original point: The Japanese are responsible for their behavior. The DID NOT learn how to be barbaric in war from the Europeans. They had perfected that long before the Europeans arrived.
http://www.yisunshin.info/
I will give you the last word if you choose to reply. This has been fun for me,but I feel this kind of discourse is better handled in discussion rather than through a bulletin board style room. It has been a pleasure. You are obviously a well-informed, articulate person. Thanks again.

but you seem to know absolutely nothing of Japanese history during the all-important Meiji era. Please read about the Meiji era before making specious claims that Japan relied upon failed home-grown 16th century tactics in establishing its 20th century empire.

but interesting.

Memories die hard, and often become distorted in the process.

China will be the biggest and baddest player in the region if Japan doesn't change course. I think Japan should change their constitution and arm up. They have done their time for WW2. The current policy is unsustainable because it requires the US to protect them which is becoming increasingly difficult. They have to deal with NK and China too (I guess), not us.

...Washington isn't the center of the world.

Any attempts to delimit Chinese influence and power in the Asian region will have consequences. They are not going to stand idly by as Russia and India have been.

This is a China with far more resources at its disposal than in 1950. I pity the poor fool who engages in conflict with this country.

A chinese guy protesting the Japanese with a sign written completely in English?

:wtf:

What the Japanese did to their neighbours during WW2 was truly dreadful.

But that was then and now relations between the two countries have thawed considerably. However some people might not want them to thaw any further, just in case they start acting in unison on issues of common concern such as the dollar, or security.

This "much ado about a (very sparsely used) textbook" is a smokescreen for something else. The Chinese are upset because Japan has sided with Taiwan, an island which the Chinese covet because it would give them unfettered access to the Pacific. At the same time, there is a growing chasm between the haves and have-nots in this ostensibly "communist" country.

Interesting that the NHK (Japan) news reported today that the Chinese ambassador to Tokyo was summoned to the the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but there was not even a handshake offered before the discussions began. The Chinese are insisting that these were "natural" (that is, spontaneous) demonstrations. Yeah, sure.

...Autralia when they told they told the Aussies to review their military treaties with the US. It's all designed to leave Taiwan isolated when China makes their move.

Without the gov't getting involved.

There were demonstrations in China when the U.S. bombed their embassy in Yugoslavia and it was not government sponsored - That is what my freinds at the univesity told me. They only let the students protest march in a three block area near the university and then shut it down very quickly. I know my boss who is American was very worried at that time. He came to work but then after work just went home and stayed in his apartment and did not go out. <P>For Japanese in China now, it is the same. Besides the protests, there will be open shows of agression on a one on one basis towards anyone in China that is Japanese.

They are in a tough part of the world surrounded by assholes (NK). It's time to arm up and protect themselves. Right now, we are their only protection.

and the NK "threat" is as overblown as the Iraq "WMD threat" was.

As far as "arming and protecting themselves", do you realize that Japan already spends more on military than everyone except the US, Russia, and mainland China? What else should Japan do? Start a draft? Build nuclear bombs? Both of those would go over like a lead balloon filled with concrete.

that Japan secretly has nukes already. I am sure that Japan has many secret projects and a nuke project would not surprise me at all.

If the Chinese government is not behind these demonstrations then they are sure the heck thinking about how they are going to deal with the situation. They definately would not take well to the type of organization that mobilized demonstrations in so many cities over the course of a week.

They will be thinking what if the means of organization one day are used against the Chinese government like that are now in protest of Japan.

And what a pandora's box they would be opening if they were behind it. That would lead me to think they are not.

This started with the smashing of store fronts and merchandise of Japanese owned department stores in Chengdu and Zhenzhen a few days before the demonstrations in Beijing. It is coordinated.

as a second language are much more common than speakers of Chinese as a second language.

If you want your message understood in 100 countries, you write it not in Chinese, but in English. Not even in French or German.

Chinese and Japanese tend to work best.

The poster was implying that the demo was for external consumption.

is clearly homemade. Typically this sort of staged event would include signs distributed for the event by the government. Odd picture.

However, the big banner in the background is certainly not handmade.

Also, the most likely reason why this particular sign is written in English is because most products exported by Japan to other countries say "Made in Japan", in English.

What do you find so significant about a sign written in English? Of course they are going to write some in English as well as in Chinese. What would you do if you were working the protest?

I don't get what point you are trying to make.

under 70. Just as young Germans tend to not feel much guilt over the Holocaust--because they have no guilt in the matter--I personally don't think Japanese not responsible for Nanking, etc., should feel responsible.

Apologizing would be dishonorable. You don't positive face cheaply; you don't assume negative face cheaply.

China continues to dwell on how incredibly victimized they are by invaders crushing their superior souls under the Nazi bootstrap of Japanese and Euro-American domination for apparently millennia (leaving out their many millions dead in last 60 years at their own hands, or the genocide committed millennia ago by their esteemed ancestors, and the current racism and oppression they enforce elsewhere in their demesne). Slighting your own flaws and emphasing your own glory and merits while focusing on how horrible everybody else else, how they humiliate and have humiliated you, and how threatening they are is always a good way of distracting the masses.

We usually call that jingoism.

to apologize for and make reparations for what it did in the 30's and 40's and continues to prohibit any attempts to glorify or justify the nazi regime. Japan has never come to terms with its war crimes, and continues to gloss over and rationalize and distort the history of its activities in the same period. Fuck the dishonor part, they killed millions of Chinese, and they have yet to account for their actions. For example google 'rape of nanking'. Also, the history of Euro-american domination ran from the early 1800's until WW-II, not 'millenia'. Prior to the 1800's the Chinese were only vaguely aware of the barbarians to the west and certainly were not dominated by them.

However I do agree that the current protests are certainly government sponsored, as is just about anything political in China, and that it is an attempt to generate nationalist, jingoist, fervor. The real questions are why, and why now? What's up with China that they feel the need to get something going?

I viewed this report this morning as one more disturbing data point in a picture who's totality I have yet to fully comprehend.

Possibly more than any reasonable person should expect.

The Chinese government--like all other governments--is playing a game with Japan and the world. The usual name for it is "politics". They udnerstand the roles of traditional Chinese and Japanese cultures, and the elements that make it up. They understand how to play off of these concepts. And China understands how this can manipulate their own citizens and also world opinion, i.e., cultures without the same cultural underpinnings. Culture can be a weapon.

While I think the older generation of Japanese should apologize, I don't expect the younger generations to beat themselves senseless out of recrimination and remorse, any more than I expect younger Chinese to put on sackcloth and ashes because of the millions killed under the Cultural Revolution. Simply put, it's not their job, although a factual account should be in their textbooks, in both cases. However, I think I understand why they need to scapegoat or gloss over events, and why visits are appropriate to the Shinto shrine in which, among others, some Japanese war criminals are interred. I respect the cultural sensibilities of other peoples, even if I don't agree with them.

China, I think, slights its own history in many, many respects. China during the time of Western imperialist expansion was fairly rotten from the inside. They overdo the western imperialist claims a bit, for the same reason they focus on the admittedly horrible actions of the Japanese, while focusing, as any people usually does, on their past greatness and glory. Regardless of what that greatness was based on. Since the Chinese people are innocent of all wrong doing, and always have been, I engaged in apparently unrecognizable hyperbole. Although the Indo-Europeans obviously discomfited the Han at some point fairly early in their history, I don't lay claim to that being Western Imperialism.

As for the Westerners being barbarians, I'll take that to mean "not speaking Mandarin" (mimicking classical Greek usage of the term), or as sardonically parroting vocabulary that the Chinese elite would have used at the time.

...plays the same game you attributed to China:

"Slighting your own flaws and emphasing your own glory and merits while focusing on how horrible everybody else else, how they humiliate and have humiliated you, and how threatening they are is always a good way of distracting the masses."

our own distorted view of history - ie: Vietnam, and US backed coups everywhere...

and thanks to our own state run media 56% still think Iraq had WMD's. Who needs text books when you've got Time Warner/Disney/General Electric/Viacom and Sinclair

They have been lobbying for support from Bangladesh and other Asian countries. It appears that Chinese do not want them elected.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0411/p01s04-woap.html

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-04/10/content_2809640.htm

I actually thought of you when this came up. What do you think is going on?

out of this. I pity any country that tries to fight in any armed conflict with any Asian country. They have way more fodder for the human meat market that war is and they will NOT hesitate to use it. Just look back to Viet Nam. Think the Iraq situation is a hotbed? Asians kick ass. And I'd hate to see any Americans get killed in the crossfire between China and Japan. Mercy.

I will say this. While Japan did some really atrocious things 60 years ago, China needn't throw any rocks around in it's glass house. Neither country is clean in the matter of the atrocities of history. Neither is our own for that matter. It's all bad. Is anything ever going to be good again? Usually there is some good news to go with the bad, isn't there? Or is that just in Hollywood?

Here read this you scum sucking dirty lying murderous red communists chinese bastards!

http://www.taiwandc.org/tpetimes.htm