Italy, U.S. Disagree Over Agent Shooting

that a preliminary report from a joint U.S.-Italian investigation has cleared the American soldiers of any wrongdoing and provides new details into the shooting?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1393255

Not that I can really know obviously... but it's a stab...

"Sources tell NBC that a preliminary report by __________ has cleared American ________ of wrongdoing in _________."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/12/60II/main687555.shtml


<snip>

Let's take this piece by piece," says Pelley. "Vehicle was speeding."

"No," says Sgrena.

"Attempted to warn the driver by hand signals," says Pelley.

"No," says Sgrena.

"Arm signals. Flashing white lights," says Pelley. "Firing warning shots."

"Nothing at all," says Sgrena.

"What you’re saying in this interview is that none of those things happened?" asks Pelley.

"Nothing. No," says Sgrena. "I'm sure."

...and the Italian journalist whose life was almost snuffed out and whose college was assassinated by American troops were apparently lying. Ok, we can all move along now.:wtf:

prevent the Italians from examining the car is because the evidence will blow the US version out of the water. I am betting it was riddled with bullets.

Two questions:

1) WHere is Calipari's cell phone?

2) What does the driver say? I have not heard a word about him.

To hide the key piece of evidence in this case is a red flag.

It seems they have hidden ALL of the evidence.

Italians did get the phones back. The absence of the car is
of course telling, and the absence of any reason for the absence
of the car. And the absence of testimony from the other two
parties in the car who are supposed to be alive still (besides
Sgrena). Most investigations would focus on those things. What
we seem to have is an ongoing stalling operation pursued in the
hopes that everybody will lose interest.

but in the beginning of the 60 minutes interview, they said that no one knew calipari until he died. maybe their missions are secret. that was my first thought.

they did check the calls on his cell, i remember.

i wish someone could get photos of the car. we are such cowards (and worse!) for not releasing the car, the truth. it's embarrassing.

Italy, U.S. Disagree Over Agent Shooting

1 hour, 47 minutes ago Europe - AP


By AIDAN LEWIS, Associated Press Writer

ROME - Reluctance by Italian investigators to accept the U.S. version of the killing of an Italian security agent by American troops in Iraq last month is holding up the conclusion of a joint inquiry into the shooting, Italian newspapers said Thursday.

Also Thursday, the U.S. State Department said the investigation was ongoing and denied an NBC report that the U.S.-Italian commission had completed a preliminary report clearing the Americans of any wrongdoing in the killing.

The security agent, Nicola Calipari, was killed March 4 at a temporary U.S. military checkpoint on the road to Baghdad airport when soldiers fired on the car in which he was bringing an Italian hostage to freedom. Another intelligence agent and the hostage, journalist Giuliana Sgrena, were wounded.

"Anyone asserting that conclusions have been reached, or anyone claiming that conclusions have been reached, and they know what they are, must be misinformed," State Department press officer Thomas Casey said.

Casey noted that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had said on Wednesday after a meeting Italian Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini that the most important thing was to do the investigation right, not to do it fast.

(more)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050415/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq&cid=518&ncid=1480

I don't believe Giuliana Sgrena when she said in the 60 Minutes interview that she didn't see any warnings to stop or slow down.

Maybe she didn't see the warnings, perhaps she was too busy talking on her cellphone?

It just doesn't make sense, anybody that is in a car driving toward the Baghdad airport has got to know that there are roadblocks and there is no express lane.

Of course I'm just guessing but I think there is something more to this story that we don't know. Furthermore, I think the soldiers are right to fire on a the car that won't stop.

Giuliana Sgrena is lying, IMHO.

-Fergus

that you are missing in your simplistic post here. I think you will find that what you posted has been debunked many times. A little search and read before posting will go a long way in credible posts.

Simplistic post?

Anyway, I watched the 60 Minutes interview, thats all, and based on what I saw and heard, I don't believe her. That's my opinion.

Again, it doesn't make sense that if you are driving to the Baghdad airport you wouldn't expect to stop or be stopped.

-Fergus

The car was on a secured road to the Baghdad airport--there was no reason for them to fear stopping. Where is the car? And where is the driver?

:shrug:
rocknation

Okay, I admit it, I've never been to the Baghdad airport.

I think the airport is a pretty secure place, there must be checkpoints and roadblocks on the road leading up it? Of course there are because that's where the shooting took place.

Why wouldn't the car stop at the first checkpoint? That's what doesn't make sense to me.

-Fergus

Green Zone to the airport, there was a tank on the side of the road that opened fire. Pretty straight forward.

So now it's a tank that opened fire on the car?

The Italian agent was killed by a shell fired by a tank and not by a bullet from a gun?

Who said a tank opened fire on the car? Where is the evidence?

Not trying to be a disrupter here, I just don't believe the Italian reporter. I think she is lying.

-Fergus

Tanks have machineguns mounted on them that are used to destroy smaller targets, such as unarmored vehicles. An M1 Abrams tank typically has a 7.62mm coaxial gun along with it's .50BMG up top.

On edit: I think it was a Bradley armored vehicle that did the shooting, not a tank. I'd have to re-read some of the articles about what happened. In either case, both sport machinegun mounts.

The reporter was very specific.

On edit: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/25/1516242&mode=thread&tid=25

Thank you very much for the link and the information on the tank and the Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

The interview was fascinating too, thanks again.

This is a little off topic but I want tell you both that I appreciate your replies and your constructive help.

I'm looking forward to reading the American/Italian joint investigative report, we'll most likely all learn something.

Thank you again,

-Fergus

who interviewed her in Italy. Maybe a week to 10 days ago? It was posted in a thread at DU, too. Sorry, don't have the link handy.

But I do remember the reporter describing her wounds as quite severe because not caused by small arms fire. She gave the measurement of the (ordinance? is that what it's called?) and my brain won't retrieve it. But the woman is not in good shape.

So, the evidence is right there, in her wounds. Sad to say.

since you seem to be genuinely interested:

New York Times, March 12, 2005, Saturday

Italian Was Killed at Iraq Checkpoint Set Up for U.S. Ambassador's Trip

"To provide security for the trip, American soldiers set up what they call mobile checkpoints - usually clusters of Humvees armed with .50-caliber machine guns on top - and one such detail opened fire on the vehicle carrying the agent, Nicola Calipari, killing him and slightly wounding the journalist, Giuliana Sgrena."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/12/international/middleeast/12iraq.html?ex=1268370000&en=d867decded048cb6&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland


A well documented summary on the incident can be found at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliana_Sgrena#fn_2


From "Iraq Checkpoint Killings Unchecked" by Jeremy Scahill

"The checkpoint where Calipari was killed had been set up for the trip of U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte to a dinner that night with Gen. George Casey, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq. To provide security, U.S. soldiers established 'mobile checkpoints'­ clusters of Humvees armed with .50-caliber machine guns on top. It was one of these details that opened fire on the Italians' vehicle.

Shootings like this happen almost everyday in Iraq. The Sgrena case happens to be receiving media attention because of who was killed. But it indicates the degree to which Iraqis are subject to violence by U.S. forces. Their deaths and injuries go uncounted at numerous checkpoints. The occupation has been rife with these questionable checkpoint shootings, explained away by the military with variations of the same mantra -- 'failed to slow down,' 'failed to stop' or 'failed to respond to signals.' The Pentagon has not admitted culpability in any such deaths.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8362.htm


What I find most interesting with respect to the latest disclosure of "preliminary findings" (which are, of course, still disputed by Sgrena, the Italian investigators and the Italian government) is how far even the US members of the investigation team now have been backpedalling from initial US Army statements, such as the following lie:

"The U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division, which controls Baghdad, said in a statement that the vehicle was "traveling at high speeds" and did not stop at the checkpoint, despite a number of warnings. The military said U.S. soldiers only opened fire after the car ignored the warnings.

(...) according to the senior U.S. military official, the car was traveling at speeds of more than 100 mph. The driver almost lost control several times before the shooting as the car hydroplaned through large puddles, the official told ABC News. The car had not gone through any previous checkpoints, the source added."

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/International/story?id=563069&page=1

Ambushes are set up from the SIDE of the road.

A review of "known facts" for those who are not up to speed.

The US claims that after warning shots and signals, they "fired into the engine block". We have seen pictures of the front of the car, no bullet holes except for 1 or 2 in the windshield glass.

The car carrying the Italians had passed all "established checkpoints" and had been cleared into the "Airport Security Area".

The US troops that fired on the car "from the side of the road" were a special detachmernt assigned to protect death squad Negroponte.

The car had slowed and had just negotiated a 90degree turn on the airport approach road (so much for speeding).

The Italian reporters version fits the KNOWN facts.
The US version contradicts the KNOWN facts.

Sgrena is telling the truth, the US is lying. The US will not let the Italians examine the car, why not? The US was informed ahead of time that Sgrena would be going to the airport, there was an aircraft there waiting to take her back to Italy and who controls the airport and would know why the aircraft was there and would have approved the landing? The US.

and top officials. No checkpoint.

And oh yeah - they were shot from behind.

Naomi Klein, from a Democracy Now interview:

"One of the things that we keep hearing is that she was fired on on the road to the airport, which is a notoriously dangerous road. In fact, it's often described as the most dangerous road in the world. So this is treated as a fairly common and understandable incident that there would be a shooting like this on that road. And I was on that road myself, and it is a really treacherous place with explosions going off all the time and a lot of checkpoints. What Giuliana told me that I had not realized before is that she wasn't on that road at all. She was on a completely different road that I actually didn't know existed. It's a secured road that you can only enter through the Green Zone and is reserved exclusively for ambassadors and top military officials. So, when Calipari, the Italian security intelligence officer, released her from captivity, they drove directly to the Green Zone, went through the elaborate checkpoint process which everyone must go through to enter the Green Zone, which involves checking in obviously with U.S. forces, and then they drove onto this secured road. And the other thing that Giuliana told me that she's quite frustrated about is the description of the vehicle that fired on her as being part of a checkpoint. She says it wasn't a checkpoint at all. It was simply a tank that was parked on the side of the road that opened fire on them. There was no process of trying to stop the car, she said, or any signals. From her perspective, they were just -- it was just opening fire by a tank. The other thing she told me that was surprising to me was that they were fired on from behind. Because I think part of what we're hearing is that the U.S. soldiers opened fire on their car, because they didn't know who they were, and they were afraid. It was self-defense, they were afraid. The fear, of course, is that their car might blow up or that they might come under attack themselves. And what Giuliana Sgrena really stressed with me was that she -- the bullet that injured her so badly and that killed Calipari, came from behind, entered the back seat of the car. And the only person who was not severely injured in the car was the driver, and she said that this is because the shots weren't coming from the front or even from the side. They were coming from behind, i.e. they were driving away. So, the idea that this was an act of self-defense, I think becomes much more questionable. And that detail may explain why there's some reticence to give up the vehicle for inspection. Because if indeed the majority of the gunfire is coming from behind, then clearly, they were firing from -- they were firing at a car that was driving away from them."

What does your sense of smell tell you about American authorities refusing Italian investigators permission to examine the car?

Thanks for posting that.

I haven't heard that American authorities have refused Italian investigators to examine the car.

I'm still not convinced that the soldiers made a mistake or there was a conspiracy to kill the hostage.

-Fergus

First of all, they were not on the ordinary road to the airport, but on a secure road reserved for VIPs that connects the Green Zone in Baghdad to the airport. Obviously, noone would be on that road without having been cleared by the appropriate authorities. Just to get into the Green Zone requires driving through multiple checkpoints.

Secondly, the shots came from the right side of the car and behind, according to Sgrena. This is consistent with the photos we have seen of the car, showing the front and left side, conspicuously lacking in bullet holes. They were certainly not shot from the front.

Both the Italian foreign minister Gianfranco Fini and the premier Silvio Berlusconi have presented this account, based on interviews with both Sgrena and the driver, an Italian intelligence agent. It is clear that they were travelling at a slow speed and were not warned. You would think the driver, at least, was paying attention.

Sorry, but it is you who are wrong.

on the road they claim she was.

Also, can we see the fucking car please?

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/25/1516242&mode=thread&tid=25-

according to some accounts. Ambassador Negroponte was supposedly meeting with the US General Casey in the airport area. There had been bad weather in Baghdad that night and Negroponte was traveling by ground transportation. The US forces had allegedly set up an improvised "checkpoint" for Negroponte's security. The setting of the "checkpoint" seems to have been at a curve in the road according to Italian accounts. That would, if true, enhance the possibility of a "mistake". I have seen no detailed information about precisely where the incident occurred and where Negroponte and Casey were at the time. The Democracy Now report is a very interesting revelation. The failure of Italian and US forces to agree on the basic facts (the Italians are "reluctant") certainly merits further investigation. Of course there are the usually ignored details about the US displeasure with the Italian practice of negotiating for their hostages' release. Tinfoil hatters don't just have to adopt the theory that Ms. Sgrena was the target. If Berlusconi's government falls, the US Government will have even more "'splainin'" to do.

Something may have been lost in the translation, but I find "reluctance" to be a curious choice of word. It implies that the Italians know the Americans are "right," and are refusing to admit it. On the other hand, unless they've been able to examine the car, or interview the driver, this report is premature anyway--unless it was meant to embarrass the Italians into playing along.

:headbang:
rocknation

was probably the fact that the Italians -- from the beginning -- have consistently claimed, or believed what the witnesses consistently said (Sgrena and the driver), namely that the vehicle was travelling at the speed of 40 - 50 KILOMETERS per hour, not MILES.

"Anche perché, rispetto alle diverse versioni fornite nei primi momenti dagli Stati Uniti e dai protagonisti italiani, almeno una è rimasta in contrasto: gli americani continuano a sostenere che prima degli spari che uccisero Calipari ci fu l’avviso di fermarsi, gli italiani negano. Gli Usa, invece, hanno dovuto riconoscere che la Corolla non andava a forte velocità - come sostennero inizialmente - ma intorno ai 40/50 chilometri orari dichiarati dal funzionario del Sismi."

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Esteri/2005/04_Aprile/14/calipari.shtml


The US Army, OTOH, initially claimed the car was speeding at an irrational 100 MILES per hour. So there may be some reluctance on the part of the Americans to go all the way and admit this was just a brazen lie?

That's about one third of 100mph and half of 100kmph (60 miles). Why would they be going even 60mph on a secured road barely a mile from the airport where a plane was waitng for them? The truth, at least, is getting lost in the translation.

ON EDIT!!! I ran the web page you posted through the Google translator. As I had feared, I ended up with sentences like, "The representatives of the United States insist in wanting to insert a declaration of substantial acquittal of the soldiers who talked nonsense in place of block on the road towards (the Baghdad airport)." But check out this bit from the headline: "Our representatives do not sign the conclusions. The Power of attorney protests: give the car to us."


:headbang:
rocknation

sometimes say, "we are reluctant" when they mean, "you lying scumbags are full of it." :eyes:

fwiw
B.