New pope's ex-students express skepticism

Tuebingen, Germany -- In the cafeteria at Tuebingen University's theology department, students swapping lecture notes on a rainy Wednesday weren't preoccupied by their looming exams.

Instead, they were concerned about where their school's most famous former professor would take the Roman Catholic Church as Pope Benedict XVI. And they didn't exude optimism.

"It's going to be interesting to see what he does," said Thomas Burchard, a 20-year-old Protestant studying for the ministry. "He's very conservative and, like the Catholic Church, he goes against what the Bible says."

(snip)

Ratzinger had a few things to say about Tuebingen as well in his memoirs. He departed after left-wing student upheavals rocked the campus, and his classes were at one point interrupted by sit-ins.

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http://salon.com/news/wire/2005/04/20/pope/index.html

"It's going to be interesting to see what he does," said Thomas Burchard, a 20-year-old Protestant studying for the ministry. "He's very conservative and, like the Catholic Church, he goes against what the Bible says."

:eyes:

(How DO some Protestants get so misinformed about and brainwashed against the Catholic Church?)


The headline is misleading, BTW, as I am quite sure 20 year-old Thomas Burchard was never a student of Joseph Ratzinger, who has worked in Rome for more than twenty years.

However, some within our faith TOO often mix our blessed Catholic Faith with Politics. I'm referring to the "slimy" letter distributed a week before the Presidential Elections from our Bishop, not direct BUT implying that we were NOT good Catholics if we vote for Kerry.

We need to lessen Abortion - not by Conservative preaching but good works with our youth. That is, setting an good example and being there for our children. It is hypocritical for Catholics to preach that "Laws be passed" to BAN all abortion without addressing the ENTIRE issue. That's NOT our role. Our role is to address all the issues of being Pro-Life NOT just the easy ones that make us look "all knowing and self-righteous.

Yes, I'm saddened that the Cardinals selected such a right wing man for our Pope, but many of us Liberal Catholics in the Franciscan and Jesuit beliefs are biding our time.

Both Conservative and Liberal Catholics share the EXACT same beliefs regarding issues of "Pro-Life" but we profoundly disagree on THE SPECIFICS of how to pursue this noble goal.

I know by raising and teaching children, all you get when you FORCE (pass laws) people to behave a certain way, you are not converting their beliefs and sentiments ... you're only fermenting resentment.

Edited to improve (somewhat) grammar and clarity.

in the U.S. saying that Catholics should consider ALL issues in deciding how to vote?

Not all the bishops acknowledged this letter but mine sure did, issuing a letter of his own reiterating that and saying further, just as Ratzinger did, that it was only a sin for a Catholic to vote for a politician who had supported legalized abortion (or legalized euthanasia) IF the Catholic voted for the politician specifically because he or she had voted for abortion or for euthanasia and for no other reason.

As I say, my bishop issued a letter repeating what the Vatican had said, and he had been one of those threatening to withhold Communion from pro-choice candidates and people who voted for them.


I personally don't know any Catholics who want to outlaw abortion. Everyone knows that won't solve the problem at all. We need to work to decrease the demand, decrease the need, for abortion.


Cardinal Ratzinger wasn't my favorite of the papabili but he was John Paul II's favorite so I expect the papacy of Benedict XVI to be much like his predecessor's. I pray for Benedict to be an excellent pope.

I gave to some nitwits and abortion was this their issue (even though one was in menopause and shouldn't be having sex with her husband since they can't procreate anymore) others said yes: No war, no capital punishment, social justice should outweigh the abortion issue.
There was even the Catholic Bishops' sit where you could take a survey and find out your position re the Bishops, Bu$h and Kerry. The bishops leaned more to Kerry re the positions. However, some renegade Catholic in California was visited very often and had money to distribute phamphlets to churhes. I am ashamed to say that idiot Sheanon (SF NM See) said nothing much although I don't go to church nothing much anymore.

Sorry, my friend.

Reducing abortion has nothing to do with the proper concerns of the Democratic Party. It's none of our business whether there are one or one million abortions performed this year. Fighting abortion is a concern of yours, obviously; I wish you bad luck, however, with it.

This party will keep abortion legal, safe and shame-free. Regardless of Howard Dean's taste for appeasement, we are simply not going to kowtow either to the right wing or alleged "liberal" Catholics.

noble goal to decrease the demand for abortion. No, I'm another so called "false Catholic" like John F. Kerry according to that "nasty man" Donahue on FOX news. I'm in good company of fellow practicing Catholics when I say this veracity that "I personally" do not support abortion (like Kerry) BUT that does not mean that IF SELECTED or VOTED to represent a "secular government populace" that I would set my beliefs aside and represent THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY.

Come to think about it - Isn't this also what John F. Kennedy also attested to?

Contrary to our Bishop (you should have seen how smarmy the wording of the letter was a week before the Presidential election. :P) and other Right Wing (INAPPROPRIATELY mixing Church and State affairs) Catholic leaders, the way to live the "New Testament" teachings within the bible is not to FORCE your will upon the government.

I wish my fellow practicing Catholics would remember that there have been many atrocities done when our leadership gets control of governments.

Separation of Church and State is my motto and I'm sticking' with it. :-)

Finally, I will not let tyrants like Donahue of FOX news own the faith (Catholicism) that is so precious to me. Our time will come (Those of us Franciscan practice oriented.)

Reducing abortion has everything to do with the concerns of the democratic party. Effective education, available social services, healthy communities and a society that fosters caring, respectful and equitable relationships--all of these things are values of the Democratic party. All of them, when realized will reduce the number of abortions.

I am vehemently pro-choice, but I do not see how anyone could think that abortion is a good thing.

It was sickening, but then I live in the south where the Catholic church in general is much more conservative I have found. I can not tell you how irritated and annoyed I am by the Pro-life bumperstickers on the Deacon,s car right next to his bush/cheney 04 bumpersticker! They just don't see the irony.

He just seems to pick the parts he likes. This guy covered up papal abuse in the 60's, sided with Bush, wants to rid the planet of birth control, hates gays (how ironic) and won't let women have any say in the church. I wonder how long it will take before we hear any kind of speech about the poor and downtrodden. Nothing so far.

I just look at this as an opportunity to finally open peoples' eyes to the Catholic Church's hypocrisy.

fall on deaf ears. However, in an address to the cardinals the morning after his election, Benedict XVI said:

"From this full communion with Him comes every other element of the life of the Church, in the first place the communion among the faithful, the commitment to proclaim and give witness to the Gospel, the ardor of charity towards all, especially towards the poor and the smallest. "

Later in the speech, he spoke more about making the world better:


With this awareness, I address myself to everyone, even to those who follow other religions or who are simply seeking an answer to the fundamental questions of life and have not yet found it. I address everyone with simplicity and affection, to assure them that the Church wants to continue to build an open and sincere dialogue with them, in a search for the true good of mankind and of society.

"From God I invoke unity and peace for the human family and declare the willingness of all Catholics to cooperate for true social development, one that respects the dignity of all human beings.

"I will make every effort and dedicate myself to pursuing the promising dialogue that my predecessors began with various civilizations, because it is mutual understanding that gives rise to conditions for a better future for everyone.

I will give the man a chance.

even coined the phrase "compassionate conservative". Should we give this new pope a chance? Yes. Is talk cheap? You betcha.

Julie

that His Holiness has made such lovely pronouncements upon his promotion.

You'll forgive me if I find it difficult to reconcile these latest comments with the fact that he referred to me and all gay people as "intrinsically evil" in his previous position as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

I'm willing to give Ratzinger some time to see if this leopard can change his spots. BUT, I am not willing to forgive all and join his fan club based on some newly spouted platitudes.

I guess the same way some Catholics get so misinformed and brainwashed against the Protestant denominations.

in my experience as a Catholic for the past 15 years, Catholics DON'T rag on Protestants except when Protestants display ignorant bias against Catholics. Catholics are usually interested in learning about other people's beliefs, too, as long as the conversation doesn't start out with the other person telling them they aren't saved.

When I was a Protestant, and my experiences are with five denominations, I found that Protestants DO rag on Catholics and have a lot of ignorant bias against Catholicism -- like this young man asserting that Catholics don't follow the Bible.

As a kid, I was always suspicious of the way people at church (any church!) talked trash about Catholics, blacks and foreigners, so I made a point of getting to know personally some Catholics, blacks, and foreigners, learning experientially that there are many good people in each group. Many years later, I became a Catholic myself, and I continue to be astounded at the bias against Catholics exhibited at this "liberal" forum. Many self-proclaimed "liberals" could stand a lot of education on this issue.

Protestants throughout my 12 years in parochial schools or at mass. Now Jewish people? That is another story. When I was little I was told they were not going to heaven because they did not believe in Jesus!:eyes:

Many friends who went to Catholic School (like my SO) say that as kids, they thought world was divided not into Catholic, Protestant, Muslim and Jew, but into Catholics and "publics" (who were all going to hell).

My SO claims I wasn't raised Catholic because I went to public school! I did go to CCD, though, after school at the local parochial school, and we public school Catholics always enjoyed "borrowing" pencils and erasers, writing on their desks, and re-arranging their stuff.

We hated you CCDers going through our stuff! lol! I just remember being told that Jews would go to hell because of the Jesus thingy. I even told my very best Jewish friend down the street that she was going to hell when I was about 7 or 8! My Mom was mad at me. The good news is after 41 years we are still bestest friends! :)

that there are practicing catholics like you who are interested in learning about what others believe instead of simply wanting to convert them immediately. In the interest of fairness, I will add that the same is true of the protestants I know. Nearly all of them want to share their faith with me, not being at all interested in my sharing my faith with them.

She thought I was a fellow Protestant (I sort of am, now) and she said it's horrible that Catholics "don't allow the Bible in their Churches - it's not allowed to be there unless a priest in interpreting it for them".

I laughed at her and said "uh, no, that's wildly untrue". Not only is there a Bible on the alter, but I explained that when i was a kid, I carried my little missalette to Mass with me every week - it had with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John right there in black and white, and we Catholics were actually allowed to read it for ourselves

Is the whole Bible, including the old testament, available in every pew like it is in many Protestant churches (but certainly not in all denominations)? No. But the Gospels, at least, are everywhere, and every Catholic family I knew had a Bible at home.

Although the one thing I do agree with them on is that the "no married priests" thing isn't really Biblically based, especially since the Church allowed it for a few hundred years until the Church started warring with priests' families over their estates, and it was fairly common for the first 1500 years.

But then again, I did say I'd never defend the Catholic church after they picked Rat, who supported the Holocaust and Hitler (as a Nazi Youth). But, I'll make a short exception for the Catholic church as it could have been.

Hitler Youth and then the army? The two brothers had no real alternative. I suppose they could have refused to serve and gone before a firing squad but that's not a real alternative, in my view.

If Congress passed a law that required us to serve in the military, fighting in Iraq, or be shot, how many of us would really refuse induction and take death instead?

Not everyone shares your indulgence of these ex-Nazis. In fact, their neighbors don't.

Only a few hundred yards from where they lived, neighbors hid a resistance fighter. Indeed, that was while Ratzinger worked the anti-aircraft battery outside a factory that used slave labor.

It's true that courage is needed to resist totalitarianism. Some had it; others, plainly, didn't.

See this London Times piece for criticism of the brothers by one of their contemporaries, debunking the mythology you hope to spread:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667_2,00.html

sorry, when did some news corp propaganda outlet become a quality source of information? this thing should manipulate my emotions, shouldn't it?

I'd rather hear him explain why he felt Opus Dei founder Josemaria Escriva was worthy of canonization.

From Rabbi Lerner's piece at Common Dreams:



You can find the rest here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x120678

Enjoy your new Pope.

but in many ways he does not follow the teachings of Jesus.

As does every other church.

follows parts of the Bible better than others, but I don't know that any deliberately go against it.

Maybe some Bible cults do but I'm pretty familiar with Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and Quaker theology, and with the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as with Roman Catholic theology, and I can't think of a single example of any of them deliberately going against the Bible. There's a wide range of beliefs, certainly, and some rather strained logic applied sometimes to get a particular interpretation from a particular Bible verse, but not one example of a church going against the Bible.

Obviously NOT one of Ratzinger's students because of his age, he states the obvious. No, the Catholic Church is not "Bible-based" in a way to please fundamentalists. So, once again, a generally anti-Catholic statement is interpreted as meaningful about a man the kid never met. (It was not Ratzinger's vendetta that disallows Lutherans from receiving the Eucharist; the Catholic church interprets the sacrament differently than protestants do.)

Meaningful thinking appears further down in the article. Hans Kueng, a theologian in trouble with the Church (who has still kept his job) remembers a more moderate Ratzinger. "But we must wait and see, for experience shows that the papacy in the Catholic Church today is such a challenge that it can change anyone," Kueng wrote. "Let us therefore give him a chance: as with a president of the USA we should allow a pope 100 days to learn."

Odd that the quotation chosen for the OP is a bit silly--but the one by a respected, controversial theologian who actually knew the Pope is neglected. However, the latter comment shows he's willing to give Benedict a chance.

our Parish.

I find it amusing that because most folks are Baptist here in No VA, the biggest ambiguity that I have to clear up is: To explain that we pray THROUGH the Saints to God. They're (Saints) intermediaries NOT deities. We honor Mother Mary but do not worship her.

It cracks me up how many right wing protestants still insist that us Catholics worship Saints. Too funny - some folks just refuse to learn (willfully ignorant). ;)

up in St Anthony's Parish. The only thing I knew was different was a story my Grandma always told.
She was raised Methodist in the southern hills of Ohio.
Whenever they would go into the city , they had to walk completely out of their way so not to walk past the Catholic Church. They were told we worshiped statues and had other Gods.
She was scared to death.
She married and converted to Catholicism

The one little guy told my mother he wasn't allowed in her yard (they live next door) because my parents "worship statues" and there's a St. Francis in her garden.

His mother is the same fundie witch who, when asked by my mother if she was Catholic replied "No, I'm Christian", which didn't win her any points from the get-go

from fundy relatives. Catholics seem to be especially evil for them - worshipping statues and Mary and saints. It would be funny if it weren't so sad. I actually took the classes and converted to Catholicism after that. Worshipping statues and saints was not part of the lessons. This part of the family looked at me with pity because they knew I was going straight to hell for statue worship. I never could understand why they had this statue thing that absolutely did not apply to their pictures of their blue-eyed, blond-haired Jesus and that they could not tell that there was no difference between pictures and statues.

P.S. About the saint and Mary worship, when I tried to explain that Catholics believed that God would allow the saints and Mary to hear our requests to pray to God for us, they just couldn't equate that to asking a neighbor to pray for us. They are so black and white in their thinking that they couldn't grasp the concept and the similarities.

The Brits aren't that impressed, either.