New Pope condemns Spain gay bill

"Pope Benedict XVI has responded firmly to the first challenge of his papacy by condemning a Spanish government bill allowing marriage between homosexuals. The bill, passed by parliament's Socialist-dominated lower house, also allows gay couples to adopt.

A senior Vatican official described the bill - which is likely to become law within a few months - as iniquitous. He said Roman Catholic officials should be prepared to lose their jobs rather than co-operate with the law.

The bill would make Spain the first European country to allow homosexual people to marry and adopt children.

Belgium and the Netherlands only allow same-sex marriages. It is also a dramatic step in the rapid secularisation of what was once one of the most devoutly Roman Catholic countries in Europe. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4473001.stm

I'm sorry I tried to give the guy a chance.

He blew it.

Tough titty!

His idea of reaching out would appear to be reaching out - for the other guy's throat. DAMN I am SO tired of this. WHEN will my church shed its Dark Ages mentality? Will I even live to see it? (Not holding my breath...)

"Fuck off!" but this works as well. All these people who ask why we should care if we aren't Catholic should think about this kind of interference in civic life.

to tell other people how to live their lives.

stop the presses

centuries of liberal and progressive doctrine, we now get this! I am shocked, I tell you, shocked!

What's religion good for if it's not preaching hate and oppression? Gotta make those homosexuals pay for loving each other, but gotta turn the other cheek for the priest that preyed on little boys that hate them.

Catholic Popes have been doing this for centuries.

To me its a "thou doth protest too much" kind of thing.

An organization which claims it's savior was an unmarried rabbi, in spite of the mores of the time which would cause laughter at such an idea.

An organization who's creator, Paul, was from his own writings either a sexist or an outright mysoginist.

For shame to ask such a question.

...and are happily fucking our brains out while they can only fuck their pillows!

I say FUCK the pope and pass out the condoms!!!

I dont like him already with this call.

Most Catholics will listen to him & do as they wish.

I'm a protestant and not accustomed to following the church's elders lead (faith alone and all that good stuff that Luther so eloquently wrote about).

Old Benedict should try and get his own house in order (rooting out the priest molestation issues in the US an elsewhere) before he turns outside the fold.

What part are you talking about? His writings on the corruption of the church or his hardcore anti-semetic writings?

This hypocrisy never fails to amaze me.

Church has its place, but without pulling out a treatise on Luther's theses and delving into microscopic detail, the crux was that you don't need church elders interpreting the bible for you and that you and I can read and interpret the bible ourselves (of course, you had to read latin during that time, and most folks couldnt) and acheive as much salvation that way as we could through the Catholic hiearchy that was in place during his time.

Catholics, too, were persecuted for centuries - by some people called 'Protestants'.

Excuse me if the Irish, Italians and Latinos in this country don't want to assimiliate to more socially 'acceptable' Anglo churches. Maybe it's because some of those Anglos were hounding them to death less than a century ago.

God damn if this doesn't sound like McCarthyism. It's not enough to disagree with the Pope anymore - you shouldn't be ethnic or set foot in certain buildings at all.

It's 1900 all over again.

Yea, during the late 1800s and early 1900s, they were persecuted. Of cours, for several CENTURIES the catholics persecuted a helluva lot of other people. And not just protestants. Now, they mainly target gays and women.

Listen to me very carefully. I don't give a shit if the pontiff thinks homosexuality is an abomiation. But when he uses his influence over the one BILLION catholics out there to encourage discrimination and bigotry, then he deserves the hatred here.

God, what is with you fucking christians. You can't force kids to pray in schools and suddenly you're a 'poor, persecuted minority'.

Try being gay for a little while. Then see if you still feel persecuted.

Do you know anything about me or my life?

Then why do you accuse me of unjustly 'feeling persecuted'?

One more question - how come you responded to something I posted yesterday?

This WAS a buried thread.

He is arguing for the repeal of a law voted by a democratically elected government. This law is designed to enfranchise a minority, to respect a human right. If he was only advising Catholics to not avail themselves of that right, it would be OK, but what he does is reject the existence itself of such right.

He can do whatever he wants with his "flock", he should leave the rest alone.

Cheers.

...government politics. It's not fair to the rest of us taxpayers.

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he isn't "commenting." He is speaking as Spiritual Leader of over a billion people, and instructing them to break the law.

And that's the problem with many of the Church's pronouncements. These guys are perceived to be in Positions Of Authority (ie - you hafta tell 'em all your dirty little secrets in private, since they're holding the keys to the afterlife). After a couple millennia of "do it my way or go to Hell," how many of their followers can possibly see them as just another guy with an opinion?

he is a head of state interfering in the democratically conducted business of another state, as well as being the leader of a religious denomination, and he should fuck the fuck off. Then he should immediately discontinue his church's obstruction of justice vis. the pursuit of child rapists in countries all over the world.

He should shut up. He is certainly welcome to spew as much hate as he wishes, but if that hate trumps the sovereignty of another nation he is stepping over the line.

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That's a good enough working definition for now.

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before the law.

Learn a little.

Besides - this thread is about SPAIN not the UNITED STATES.

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Yup and we still can say whatever we want about the Pope. Got a point?

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Enjoy your stay.

I left from work today and my message didn't have any replies. Now I got home, started checking and half the messages are gone. Did I miss all the fun?? Crap.. :-)

Can you give me a quick recap of the gist of the flame war? I don't like the message deletion thingy, I got one of my first messages deleted and didn't like the feeling.

Cheers.

...he says something you don't like, right?

of you! We're so grateful!

that's their choice.

Just wondering...you seem to be so certain for someone so new to the DU...

Enlighten us who are just meeting you on the DU to what your beliefs are...

BTW, we are talking about Spain.

You say you don't see anything in the Constitution that guarantees rights based on who you sleep with. So my question to you then is, why does Mr Straight have more rights based on the fact he sleeps with Mrs Straight at night. In the mean time, my partner isn't sleeping with anyone, including me, because she doesn't have the basic right of marriage, or immigration sponsorship.

I guess it depends on your definition of "hate." That fits mine.

and his bigotry.

I don't have a problem with him speaking out (just with his position).

When a pope, or other religious leader criticizes Chimpy and the war, or comes out against the death penalty, we generally view that as a good thing. I can't subscribe to the view that religious leaders should only talk about religion. I do subscribe to the view that when a religious leader advocates intolerance, he should be criticized loudly.

onenote

-- dishes out spiritual tyranny earns a sharper response. And he'll probably get it with this first big controversial condemnation of Spain's lawmakers.

If the Pope joined DU and typed his message to Spain's legislature on one of DU's boards, he'd be banned. This is a more progressive group by far than the general population and so the response on DU is likely to be more fierce.

But the remarks the Pope made have at their core a moralistic dismissal of a hell of a lot of human beings. He needs to be taken to task when he does that.

For standing up for what's right.

I love how the church is telling Roman Catholics in Spain, the whole country in other words, to break the law. Renegade Pope. Renegade church.

He was elected as head of the Roman Catholic Church, not the Holy Roman Empire. A common mistake, I'm sure.

Just what input did any pew-occupying Catholic have to this "election"?

None? Oh, so this isn't a democracy in the American sense? Right?

At first blush it more resembles a Parliamentary system, in which the leader is taken from the elected party members. But once again the comarison breaks down, since in a parliament, the members are elected from the grass roots by the people, and it's certainly true that none of the College of Cardinals were elected from the parishes.

No, they were all appointed by someone else in the power structure. So let me suggext that what we have here is basically an oligarchy.

What we have here is not an election in the American sense, but a CEO appointed by the Board of Directors.

WIR LIEBEN DICH PAPA!

And so THERE to you who said he was!

The Catholic church running away from Europe.

Wonder what would happen if either Italy passes a similar bill or the EU passes a bill that enforces the same rights across the European Union.

How long before the Vatican decides that it is time to leave heathen Europe altogether?

Lowest birth rate in Europe? Italy.

Kind of like a GM executive's statement in the early 1980s - "We're doing great except for one problem area - North America."

Erik was my best friend in high school and he made that statement when a classmate of ours asked us what we thought of rumors of a JFK-Marilyn Monroe affair.

Erik's sentence is a bit coarse for some circles, but it's not a bad policy, and I would recommend it to the new Pope's attention.

If the Catholic Church wants to attract more people to its many empty churches in Europe, it might begin by arresting the impulse to tell people what to do with, and what not to do with, their genitals.

Pope Inquisitor has spoken, I tell you!

He means it, damn it!

(Don't mind me. I need a nap. Up way too early.)

he should stick to sheltering pedophiles and buying more gold chains and crosses big enough to choke a rap artist.

I guess that makes him "MORE HOLY"


Although his detractors think his sense of direction is hole-y or wholly without merit.

OMG that is FUNNY!!! And - yes, actually, he DOES have his "Mr. T Starter Set." Just issued. Probably real gold, too.

That's about it. A white guy with a Mr. "T" starter set.

hate gays??? Aside from alternative paths and certain splinter sects it sure seems like the leaders of the major religions hate gays. I just don't get it. If I was a member of any religion that showed even a bit of intolerance to gays, I'd recognize that the leaders are fakes and not enlightend and are still back in the dark ages.

Now this is the first time Ive said it, but because he finally did something as pope that sucks and is thoroughly reprehensible here it goes. The pope fucking sucks and is a bastardly bigot in the finest sense of tradition in terms of inquisitions and the Malleus Maleficarum.

For that matter, most cultures in general have loathed homosexuals until very, very recently.

This isn't exactly a surprise.

about equality and compassion out one side of their mouth and condemn a segment of the population to suffer ignoranace and prejudice and people still want to throw in their lot with a people who have an evil friggin' guy drunk on the power of holy scripture.

It just seems that in this day and age to wilfully support intolerance with your eternal soul is not gearing yourself toward any kind of enlightenment or ascension, a rather simple conclusion. How can a god be all forgiving bring forth a prince of peace and talk of compassion when that gods biggest representative insists that certain segments of the population must not only go to hell after they die but suffer the slings and arrows of hostility and intolerance whilst they live???

Sorry there are just some days I seriously think that compassion, empathy and tolerance are useless in the face of this kind of hypocrisy.

and not talked about. When you look at the history of the gay movement here in the US you will notice that it was openly accepted as long as it wasn't discussed- up until McCarthyism. Being brought up as a Catholic not talking about such things seemed like the underlying message behind that whole cult.

In practical terms, making people comfortable with their own sexuality would cut off a whole part of the population that would consider priesthood or sisterhood as a "calling". It would also probably not only expose the hypocrisy of the church, but would entice those in the clergy to pursue relationships formed in the church.

The church invented the "vow of chastity" to inherit capital from their clergy. With its teachings of promoting "family values", if such relationships were accepted then a consistent source of the church's wealth would come to a standstill- and Jesus wouldn't have want that! (:sarcasm:)

was founded in agricultural times, when the most important thing was to have plenty of hands to work the farm. Children are a luxury in an industrialized or an information society, that's why most folks in developed nations have only two or three.

Anything that did not value sex primarily for its procreation purposes was seen by the elites as damaging to the agricultural society, therefore, they banned masturbation and homosexuality. Religion is something that humankind has outgrown, but the vestiges of this last European monarchy still haunt colonized peoples in the Third World. That's why I'm for progress for South America, Asia, and Africa, eventually, they will throw off the yoke of Western religious "thought".

to be their own private territory and they don't want, um, lay people, er, horning in on the action.

The priesthood of any religion, like the management of any corporation is primarily about maintaning and increasing it's power. That power is directly proportional to the number of their followers. Remember "Go forth and multiply"? More children means more followers. Gays fall far outside this admonition, so they are shunned by the priesthood.

<snip>

"He said Roman Catholic officials should be prepared to lose their jobs rather than co-operate with the law."

That says it all.

It's not like CATHOLIC priests will be mandated to PERFORM gay marriages.

for this comment?

"He said Roman Catholic officials should be prepared to lose their jobs rather than co-operate with the law"

I wonder if anyone has ever tried to invade Vatican City?

a "holy war."


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/466053

but seriously, what happens if the Vatican gets invaded?

Vatican City is a small remnant of the lands formerly ruled directly by the Pope. There have been numerous military events with Papal forces either attacking or defending.

In the unlikely event the Vatican were invaded, the Swiss Guard would fight & die, if necessary. Just as more than 700 died in a vain attempt to protect Louis XVI--here's the monument to that action:

It always makes me cry when I see that monument. There's nothing more tragic than the nobility of gallantry unto death for an ignoble cause.

Look, this thread is sounding even nastier and more juvenile than I generally manage. Please keep a few things in mind:

1. As of now, Catholic doctrine holds homosexuality to be a sin.

2. As Top Catholic, it is Pope Ratzo's JOB to tell people not to sin.

3. If Pope Ratzo were anti-death penalty, and Spain instituted a death penalty, he might very well make the absolute same comment about that: It is a terrible thing and Catholic officials should not take part. In effect, recommending civil disobedience.

Religious leaders have advocated civil disobedience on moral grounds to their followers many times. When we agree with their viewpoints, we say it's a noble and courageous call to action. When we disagree with the viewpoint, we get all bent about a religious leader doing what is one of the basic duties of a religious leader: Giving spiritual guidance to their followers.

Slang Ratzo off all you want to for his own complicity in keeping the Church's doctine in some bigoted neo-Medieval dark age, I'll happily join in.

But don't slang him off for doing his job. Speaking out on moral issues, giving guidance to his followers, is his job. What he says may be wrong. But simply saying it isn't wrong, it's his job.

When we keep bitching about the man doing his job, it starts to sound like bigotry. It's like saying "Fish shouldn't be wet all the time."

Disclaimer: I strongly disagree with the Catholic Church's doctrine on homosexuality and would like it to change. But I have studied the institution and its history, and expecting the Church leadership, even if they hadn't been deliberately subverted into neo-Medievalism over the last two decades, to wake up one morning and say, "Gee, we've been wrong and mean on homosexuality all these years, let's stop it," is like hoping for the sun to rise in the West tomorrow.

I'd be happy if they'd just stop going backwards for now, which, apparently, isn't going to happen under Pope Ratzo.

Oh, and it's also absurd to criticize the Church for being "undemocratic." It's never claimed to be a democratic institution. Very few religious denominations are.

helpfully,
Bright

Thats great that he's doing his job so diligently. I suppose thats how a lot of volk climbed the ladder within the Nazi Party: pulling gas chamber switches diligently, quickly and as instructed.

well he's fast out of the blocks, i'll give him that.

There are many objections to his life & works, but they escape you.

His parents were married.

And he's a serious intellectual & former professor of theology.

and professor of fairy tales, seldom go together in my mind.

Jay

Or, at least, buy a thesaurus.

I'm appalled at the lack of verbal creativity here.

i'm appalled at the lack of your verbal creativity.

not all knowledge comes from one discipline, and ignorant really does apply in this case. comparing medieval world view and thought to an enlightened age filled with wonders beyond the dark ages comprehension, not only within technology, but in social structure, and world view, is really impossible -- one is just better, by any measure. and saying his desperate clutch to backward ideas is anything but ignorant because it is mitigated by his educational background is laughable. bush is ignorant in his approach to the world, the proof is in the results; is it mitigated because he went to harvard and yale? no. he's still an ignorant boob who has squandered america's future. one can have a full lifetime of schooling and still be ignorant in a whole world of things; and some can have the best in education and still be willfully ignorant of any of the lessons.

papacy, rapidly approaching irrelevancy. there's prophecy of this being the last pope; not wholly convinced, but wouldn't be much surprised either. he isn't exactly trying to usher the office into the modern times like previously recent popes.

He's also trying to control politics so that means his church should start paying taxes.

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because he called my sexuality an intrinsic moral evil and a disorder, without even an introduction, which makes him rude, also.

see you around, I'm sure.

because he dresses up his loathing of oh, me, for example, in vaguely theological language, such as 'objective disorder' or 'intrinsic moral evil', i.e. he dares to question the foundation of my being, and right to respect (and all that flows from that), I, or people like me, should watch our vocabulary? How dare you. In a perfect world, of course, we would hold nothing but reasoned discussions. News, lady: this ain't a perfect world, and this is atime for outrage, which if it takes intemperate form is hardly startling. I've just heard about this, and I'm angry, angry, angry (but not so much surprised, surprised, surprised); you really don't want to hear everything I've said out loud in the last half an hour, but if I chose to share it here, well, that would be absolutely proper. (Correction in that I used fuck twice in a post on this thread 2 minutes ago).

Can we really respect a person that has been arguing that homosexuals are mentally ill and their behavior inherently evil?

I find it truly difficult.

Moreover, theology is NOT a serious intellectual endeavor, at least not when undertaken by someone that "knows" the final answers.

Cheers.

as an intellectual and theologian, surely he must know he is using the language of violence against gay people and that makes it all the worse.

"If the Pope joined DU and typed his message to Spain's legislature on one of DU's boards, he'd be banned. This is a more progressive group by far than the general population and so the response on DU is likely to be more fierce."

Nothing changes. An old, irrelevant German bureaucrat replaces an old, irrelevant Polish bureaucrat.

He's a bigot. That's what bigots do. They hate it when those whom they despise get any kind of recognition or rights.

Particularly not the new Pope, I guess. I'm looking forward to seeing more "iniquitous" legislation coming out of the EU in months and years to come. As Nelson Muntz would say, "Hah hah!"

Repeat with me this happy refrain:

"The gays in Spain stay mainly on the plain!"
"The gays in Spain must be loaded on the train!"

Those guys in Rome spend too much time alone.
The hope for Pope rests mainly on this fascist dope.


CALLING CTHULHU! CTHULHU, COME HOME!

DXS

The job of Spain's leaders (who were elected by its people) is to run Spain. Homosexuality may be a sin to some, but it's not a crime.

:headbang:
rocknation

How surprising that his first condemnation would be this. :eyes:

or the Country? What an egomaniac.

I don't buy the criticism being levelled at the Pope that suggests he exceeded the bounds of his authority by criticizing the Spanish government. If the Pope had criticized Chimpy's war and announced that Catholics should refuse to fight, this board would be filled with posts commending him.

That being said the content of the Pope's message -- his ignorant, intolerant, hateful position on homosexuality is unacceptable and he should be roundly condemned for it.

onenote

A Pope trying to monitor people's penises and vaginas is quite a bit more personal, patently unwelcome, and in this case, specifically contemptuous of a democratically-elected government.

"Don't kill other human beings" is not the same as "Don't have same-sex relations with other human beings".

Popes can make that distinction if they want to.

if its for anything other than procreation with the opposite sex"...

I'm tired of these religious rightwing freaks and now Pope Rightwinger telling who can do who and under what circumstances...

Maybe he should focus his time issueing statements this strong about priests who rape young kids in the church and anyone who helps them cover it up...Maybe he could start with telling Cardinal Bernard Law this and what a sinner he is...

the Church is not theocratically in control of any nation. What happened to the big stink about divorce? One might as well cool the rhetoric about secular governments and worry more about life death and freedom issues. The Vatican has drawn the lines in all the wrong places and has tried to exert influence the wrong way too much echoing the days of tragic entwining Church-state realtionships. When the methods are bad in this way even trying to get at the issue is impossible.

Expect a lot more of this. If it makes the left stronger in Spain, ironically it would be good for the Church in the big picture in a certain way.

Liberalism and gays...like kryptonite to Pope Neocon.

Imagine that being very first issue the pope felt he had to address in today's world. :eyes:

:evilgrin:

One minute you're covering up your priests' sexual abuse of young boys, next thing you're telling consenting adults what they can do to each other......Hmmmmm........

So what's his beef?

Since it is readily apparent that you have almost nothing in common with Rome, just when are you going to separate? I Think it's time there were three catholic churches: Roman, Greek Orthodox, and American Radical.

At least we have something in common. First "Lucy" and now this.

What a coincidence!

<< The head of the Vatican's Pontifical Council on the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, denounced the legislation as profoundly iniquitous. >>

FUCK THAT SHIT!

we are all so very wicked! IT'S OPEN SEASON NOW! That's it... I refuse to pretend any propriety about this hateful, evil man.



:eyes:

You are the boss of nothing but a flock of sheep. Collect your wool and be gone.

If he wants to influence political decisions, let him pay for the Iraq war and the dividend tax cut.

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Pope Flip-Flopper I

And murdering tens and thousands of innocent people? Or presiding over 150 plus executions as governor of Texas?

Gays are a safe and easy target. It's ok to kill, just don't have sex unless you have it according to our guidelines for your personal sexual behavior.

Fucking "compassionate conservative" hypocrites.

Nothing but modern day Pharisees.

When Bush went to war he was out there calling it unjust and wrong.

IMO, to condemn gay marriage so strongly but basically skirt the war issue and the fact that Bush is solely entirely responsible as an individual for ordering the war is incredibly hypocritical.

The Pope should come out and denounce Bush and the war, at the very least, as "iniquitous". Because it certainly is by the standards of any decent moral human being, and certainly should be by the heirarchy of an organization that claims to be the original and continuous church begun by Peter and the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

Why is gay marriage so much more "iniquitous" than the wholesale slaughter of innocent people for oil and profit?

No matter how you spin it, this is hypocrisy of the most "iniquitous" type.

Gay folks can't really do much to fight back against the Pope and the Vatican, and trashing gay folks is kind of popular among all of the conservative shitheads of the world on any given day anyway, so gays are a safe, easy, and perhaps profitable, target.

Bush and the neocons are dangerous fascists and the Vatican has been very reticent regarding neocon actions which are so blatantly contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ, despite the UNSPEAKABLY WICKED nature of their lies and actions regarding the unjustifiable bloodbath in Iraq.

He has been in office just over a year and has advanced Spain by centuries. His domestic violence law & policies R great. There is a fantastic article about his first year in the current 'American Prospect'.

'...Socialist Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero took office a year ago making it clear he intended to remove what he called the church's undeniable advantages and make Spain a secular state.

There are likely to be further tensions with Pope Benedict XVI. Mr Zapatero has made it clear that he intends to streamline divorce law and even to relax the conditions placed on abortion.'...

Hey, Pope, don't worry about the tens of thousands of people dying in Iraq! Just worry about those gays!

he should keep his nose out of where it does not belong. Please sir, minister to your flock and leave the rest of us the hell alone! I do not want to convert, I do not want your advice, you have no business telling any government what to do (hey, think about the last time Spain let you run the show...remember that...the Inquisition ringing a bell?. Just shut up, run your little city, tend your devoted flock, and otherwise, we do not want to hear from you.

Who did it?

wonderful art, to see more, take a look http://www.lava.net/~artbeat/main.html

And to Pope Benedict XVI:

Shove it.

Let him rant all he wants; he'll lose respect quicker than you can say "oh!"

Read this (I'm sure you have a copy lying around somewhere):

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. --Jesus of Nazareth (Matthew 3:3-5, NIV)

In memory of the children your priests have caused to stumble, and of Federico Garcia Lorca of Spain whom your spiritual antecedents assassinated.

He injected himself into American politics by putting pressure on American priests to not give communion to anyone who is "pro-abortion" during the last political season.

Expect any candidate who's not opposed to women's rights to be treated similarly, next time around.

and PM Zapatero also intends to cutoff state subsidies to the Catholic Church that date back to the days of Fascist dictator Francisco Franco.

This is one government that the panzerpope will not be able to coerce!

Maybe it's time to start reminding people what this new Pope stands for.

Monday, April 18, 2005

Holocaust case against Vatican Bank revived

A federal appeals court Monday reinstated a lawsuit brought by survivors of the Holocaust who allege the Vatican Bank accepted millions of dollars worth of their valuables stolen by Nazi sympathizers.

The Vatican Bank, the financial arm of the Roman Catholic Church, denies allegations that it stored the looted assets from thousands of gypsies, Jews, Serbs and others who were killed or captured by the Nazi-backed regime that controlled Croatia during World War II.

A federal judge had dismissed the 1999 case, but the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said the survivors should have their day in court in an effort to be compensated for their monetary losses, and to be given an accounting of what money, if any, the bank received from the Ustasha regime.

An attorney for the survivors and their beneficiaries said the decision, combined with a new pope expected to be chosen soon, could lead to an out-of-court settlement.

"A new pope might be more energetic than the old pope in these matters," attorney Jonathan Levy said. Cardinals began meeting in Vatican City on Monday to pick the successor to Pope John Paul II, who died April 2.

Church officials were not immediately available for comment. The bank's attorney, Jeffrey Lena, did not answer repeated phone calls. He told the court in October that the allegations were "tenuous."

In 1998, Swiss banks agreed to pay as much as $1.25 billion to Nazi victims and their families who accused the banks of stealing, concealing or sending to the Nazis hundreds of millions of dollars worth of Jewish holdings and destroying bank records to cover the paper trail.

In reinstating the monetary claims against the Vatican Bank, the appeals court overruled a lower court judge who said the lawsuit could upset "governmental negotiations and diplomacy" toward resolving claims originating from World War II.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Vatican%20Bank%20Lawsuit

I'll assume ya'all already knew about the Hitler's Youth thing.

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...can kiss my rainbow flag draped ass!

Main Entry: in·iq·ui·ty
Pronunciation: -kw&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle English iniquite, from Middle French iniquité, from Latin iniquitat-, iniquitas, from iniquus uneven, from in- + aequus equal
1 : gross injustice : WICKEDNESS
2 : a wicked act or thing : SIN


I assume our "new Master of morals is referring to definition #2.

Yes, wicked.......the devil an' all the hobgoblins are surely out to get us ALL.

making a list and checking it twice, and he's going to be issuing a long list of horrible proclamations - he's been waiting to do it.

So now he is telling a predominantly Catholic country to choose between his acceptance as a "true" Catholic and who knows what kind of spiritual punishment to behave like a caring human being. For the gays themselves, of course, there is no concept of "Christian charity" at all.

It's going to be like this until he is gone, I'm afraid. He will issue ultimatums and threats based on his very narrow view of what is "moral."

If he serves 2 years I'll be surprised. Wotyjla (spelling) was young when he was elected, but Ratzenberger most certainly is not. Time waits for no man.

Is Spain supposed to get down on bended knee and quake with fear?

he sure talks like one

you are nothing but a shriveled up, bitter, old, hate-filled, evil son of a bitch who now thinks he has the right to preach to the world's BILLIONS who never bought the Catholic Church's load of crapola to begin with. Take your child-raping "religion" and SHOVE IT, gold-hoarding greedhead.

I'm not really surprised, and can't see why anyone else is. It's a
Catholic Pope, for God's sake, of course he will be a bigot. Fuck you, Ratzinger, you're no Christian. I refuse to go to church anymore... damn these bigots, hypocrates, and scum bags in our church. No, if anyone is "damned to hell" it is them, and it is because of their intolerance, bigotry, and foolish hatred of what they cannot understand. If it wasn't for men like Greeley, I would've converted long ago. But now, maybe it's time to start considering it.

I'm so fucking tired of supporting this church. Hell with it, if they aren't following the teachings of Christ, I refuse to follow them. I'll find another path, my faith in God has NEVER been dependant on the church. Hell with it.

Yeah... I need some more coffee.

There is a book written by Catholic/Christian Theologians called
EMBODIMENT ...

perhaps he could start by reading that book.

And, as much as I believe that ratzinger's understanding of human sexuality seems to be based on antiquated christian theology and that makes him someone who is not pallatable to our more progressive tastes... i have to say that i like ratzinger the man...although ratzinger the pope, the theologian, the speaker on and of human sexuality has much to learn.

;)

I live in Northern Maine, a small community. A very... conservative community. I can't help but grimace when I think back on all of the things I was taught as a young child. Homosexuality is a sin? But, it's ok if we go around bombing other Countries. It's perfectly alright if a vast conspiracy within our own Nation brings down the World Trade Center and we go on the march to bring "Freedom to all the darkest corners of the world." Ugh, I think I'm going to be sick.

Yeah, GWB is a good "christian man"? Pfft. All of these neocons up here love him. Freedom is on the march, they tell me. What a crock of shit. Before we start spreading the light of freedom all around the world, perhaps we need to do something for our own Country!

Nope, I guess I'm just not a very good Catholic. Nah... I'm the AntiChristian heathen. It couldn't possibly be that their bigotry and prejudice go against the teachings of Christ. No... it wasn't Jesus who said "Love thy enemy as thy neighbor", or "thou shalt not kill"... nope, must've been one of those "evil liberal heathens".

Yeah, it's perfectly alright to bomb abortion clinics, you're doing God's will, right? What the hell is wrong with these idiots? Damn them, damn them all. Let them rot in their own "hell" that they have for hundreds of years tried to force others into fearing.

All I can do at this point, is apologize for supporting an organization that has proven itself to be, not a religion, but perhaps one of the greatest support systems that "true evil" has in this world today.

It's time for a revolution... if none of the other Catholics in my community will stand up and speak out, then I will. Let them ex-communicate me. I'm not afraid, I will make a stand for the truth. Am I going to convert? No, I'm going to try to convert these idiots that I have to put up with each and every day. Not to another religion, but to a higher spirituality, Jesus is my Lord, and Ratzinger is a fool.

My most heartfelt apologies go out to anyone who is a homosexual. My church has, in it's own ignorance, made an enemy of some of the best people in the world today. I will combat it the only way I can.. with my words, with my actions, I will combat it by leading by example. Somehow, I will teach them something.

They can take away communion, they can take away the robes, the churches... they can even take my life. But they'll never take my integrity, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let them turn Jesus into Satan.

The new Pope is pure evil.

This is where they will get their new converts and new centers of political power.
Next Pope will be from one of those Continents to ensure their loyalty.

They miss the good old days when they controled Europe and told the kings how it was going to be or else. Since Europe has moved away from the catholic church it has been pissing it off ever since. You see the church misses Pennochet, Mussolini, and Franco. Those said people made the church a lot of money because their religion was shoved down the people's throats. Because those days are long gone and will never come back again, they set their sites on this country. You see they don't like the fact they're losing money from all those pediphile lawsuits so they back Bush hoping to get his "Faith-Based money" and Tort reform so they won't lose anymore money. Then after that they can continue to poison minds by supporting a giggling killer instead of a quite catholic man.

nazi pope is already coming out againt the pesky gays.