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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:05 AM
Original message
Elian Gonzalez thanks Americans for helping him return to Cuba
Apr 23, 2005

HAVANA (AP) -- Elian Gonzalez, the young Cuban castaway whose international custody battle ended in his dramatic seizure from a Miami home five years ago, addressed a crowd of thousands Friday, thanking Cubans and Americans alike for fighting for his return to the island.

Elian, now 11, read a speech at a televised event in Havana marking the fifth anniversary of the April 22 raid in which armed U.S. federal agents snatched him from his Miami relatives in the first step to getting him back to Cuba.

"Five years ago I returned to my dad," he said. "When I saw him, I became very happy. I could hug him, I could see my little brother. That was the happiest day of my life."

Though the Cuban boy frequently appears in public alongside his father, this is the first time he has given an address at an event open to the international press. President Fidel Castro was among thousands in the audience and many of the boy's remarks were sure to please the communist leader.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/F/FL_CUBA_ELIAN_GONZALEZ_FLOL-?SITE=FLPET&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=state.shtml

I bet Marisleysis will have a seizure when she reads about this.
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Flammable Materials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. So he was going to be a media puppet regardless.
Children need to be with their parents. I don't care if it's Colorado or Cuba, North Dakota or North Korea.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. He would never have ended up being a media puppet
if he had just been shipped straight back to his dad in Cuba as soon as he was well enough to travel. The behavior of people in this country and the prolonged drama was what made him a useful political football for Castro.

Still, if he's going to be a political football, it's best that he at least do it living with his real family.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. "Either send him back or allow the father to emigrate here."
That's exactly what I said to the TV when I first heard about Elian. Look up "no-brainer" in the dictionary, and you ought to find a picture of him.

By the way, Elian, you are extremely welcome--and I am extremely proud that common sense won out.

:headbang:
rocknation
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Only his father didn't want to emigrate here, even though
he was offered vast amounts of money to do it. A parent should have the right to live with their child in their own home country, whether we like the country's government or not. Otherwise you're opening a huge can of worms and there's nothing to stop foreign governments from kidnapping American children because they don't like our government.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. I wonder if we'll see Cubans burning American flags in Miami again
over this. That entire episode was one of the most disgusting things I have ever witnessed, and the media coverage of it was the first hint to me that something had seriously cracked in American journalism.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. It was loony!!
:crazy:

Absolute insanity. Every day I would wonder, can this get any worse, and it did. Day after day after day.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
204. Exactly how I've felt since first, the Lewinsky charade, then Bush 2000.
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 04:46 PM by Seabiscuit
It just keeps getting worse and worse, loonier and loonier. Day after day after day. It's a wonder we're not all in loony bins by now after almost 7 years of living admidst this insanity. How long can a sane person remain sane adrift on an ocean of insanity?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #204
205. Just when I think it can't get any more insane
they up it another notch.

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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
4. I would be happy to be with my family too!



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Atlas Mugged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. Oh, yeah!!!
Everytime things got dramatic Marisleysis was hauled to the hospital for "nervous exhaustion".

I've pretty much put this entire episode out of my mind. One of the stupidest "international incidents" ever, politicized by the far right for personal gain.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. The right didn't just polarize this event
they staged it from start to finish. Elian was not in the water hanging off an inner tube for more than 1 hour, tops. If at all?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. No sunburn, no dry, parched lips, nothing! After drifting in an innertube
for a day or two? Very strange.



First photo I saw of the two reunited. They should have never been kept apart by the drunken great uncle, his family, and the Cuban American National Foundation.
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nine30 Donating Member (593 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. Oh, he will back as Tony Montana
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
8. In those days five years ago, the freepers and the Miami crowd
were a five star comedy act. The Terri Schiavo thingy was a four star comedy show!
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reality based Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you Bill Clinton
and Janet Reno for your demonstration of sanity in a world gone mad.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
65. Janet Reno was partly to blame for the duration of the incident
She gave the Miami relatives lawyers (CANF lawyers) advice as to forum shopping to get a favorable decision to keep the kid in Miami. There were many opportunities for her to lay down the law but she kept backing off, until the end.

I'm glad that the boy was rightfully returned to his Cuban family, but Ms Reno was little help when it came to the trauma caused by the duration of the hostage holding by the Miami relatives.


I thank the Border Patrol and INS officers who conducted the rescue for not starting a shooting gallery, which was a distinct possibility.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. It was a possibility, wasn't it?
Makes you wonder if Marisleysis was coached to tell the Attorney General's office that "we have other things in this house besides cameras...." in order to instigate some rougher behavior, for which they were prepared with a professional photographer from the Miami Herald positioned in the bedroom where they were concealing the kid.

Someone has mentioned it would have seemed intelligent to have had an audio, or audio/video record of the event for better accuracy in recording the arrival of the federal agents. This way, when Marisleysis claimed the agents were shouting filthy language at them, there's no way you can prove it DIDN'T happen.

You'd call this selective documentation, it seems.

Oh, yeah. We folks outside Miami heard there were gunmen positioned in the neighbors houses. Thought I'd throw that in.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #71
136. Weren't there TV cameras there?
I could have sworn I saw the 'raid' on TV.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #136
141. Can't remember! I do remember onlookers called people on their cell phones
and people came tearing over there in time to get in the road, and stumble around a bit, and throw fits after it was accomplished. I believe some of that was on television.

They did have still cameras outside to document the agents as they tried to get the kid out of the house and into the car.

I've read that the woman carrying him received tons of death threats and had to leave town, and that a man who was spotted in the car was identified as a Miami policeman who was assisting them, and that he was fired as soon as word got to Crazy Joe Carollo, the Miami mayor.

Maybe someone else will have a clearer memory of whether there was newsfilm of the rescue.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #136
197. You did. It was on cnn live international. See my post #196 below.
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reality based Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #65
191. I debated whether to add Reno to my post
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 12:49 PM by reality based
remembering how Clinton was reported to be impatient with her dallying. But she finally did her duty and for that, in the crazy atmosphere surrounding this case, I am willing to give her credit. I do not extend that to Al Gore whose dissembling on this case was not admirable. He should have spent his political resources in Ohio and Tennessee instead.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. He should thank the dolphins, too.
He told reporters that dolphins helped buoy him in the sea while he awaited rescue.

I've always felt the decision to return him to Cuba greatly undervalues his mother's courage and sacrifice in trying to get him to the United States.

In 15 or 20 years I expect him to be the Mayor of Miami.

Dolphins in Biscayne Bay are grinning.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. His mother's courage and sacrifice?
Yeah, it took a lot of courage to steal him away from his father and chase dick across the ocean.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Uh, I don't think wanting a better life for her and her --
-- child is equivalent to "cashing dick across the ocean."

The parents, by the way, were separated.

The child was not "stolen." The father was not present. who knows where he was or what he was chasing himself, but in any case he was not living at home supporting his wife and children.

He became "a loving parent" when the Castro government decided to make it a public relations case and Reno caved.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. So if parents are separated
then it's okay to move to another county without telling them? (also refered as kidnapping)
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. If the father is not present a case cannot be made --
-- that he was an attendant parent.

Correct.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. So by not present, do you mean at the time she made this decision?
Just because parents are separated doesn't mean that a parent doesn't have rights. My neighbors are divorced, but that doesn't mean the mother can move to Canada without telling the father, it's called kidnapping.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. I understand the parents' rights argument.
I am arguing this among other points: that returning the boy to Cuba dishonors his mother's tragic sacrifice.

For that sentiment, which is echoed here:

-----

In the first story, Elian Gonzales has become a visible pawn in the fight between family factions. That he lost his mother has almost been buried in political ideology. Is it the father's right to parent his son as he sees fit or do relatives have the right, even obligation, to give Elian the life his mother died for? Whatever the outcome of this struggle, Elian will be the one whose emotional scars will be deep and probably remain for a very long time.

In the second instance, The Supreme Court will rule on Troxel vs. Granville or whether parent's rights supersede those of all others: in this case, the grandparents of the deceased father. However the court rules; it will be the children who will suffer. Either, they will lose the opportunity to have additional grandparents to love them or, they will be confronted with negotiating a confusing relationship interwoven with that of a deceased parent from their now long ago past.

(cite in above post)
---

-- I was greeted with Cat Woman's assertion that the mother was "chasing dick across the ocean."

I found that disreputably harsh.

If you are arguing legal technicalities, the boy was found in U.S. waters by U.S. officials. He was brought to a U.S. city and remained in the custody of U.S. citizens for the period of the debate over where he should be. The father appeared on the scene once Fidel Castro understood this to be a publicity gold mine for himself and a publicity nightmare for yet another American adminsitration.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. Okay
I agree the "chasing dick across the ocean" is harsh (and I don't think that's what the mother was doing).

The legal technicalities are that Cubans wishing to stay in the US, must make their way all the way onto land to be allowed to stay. If you are picked up by the Coast Guard, you didn't make it and are sent back. He was allowed to stay while this did play out, but according to what the rules are, he was sent back accordingly.

Also, if a biological parents is alive and willing to take the child, they are the first in line, not a second cousin twice removed or whatever the people in Miami were. He had never even met the cousins in Miami before this event, but obviously knew his own father.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Then you should have been pleased with Attorney General --
-- Reno's handling of the case, complete with high-powered rifles.

Castro played this one like a fiddle, to all sides. He wins in all these public relations stunts.

All of them.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. I was pleased that Elian was reunited with his father
You had a number of people living in a house, that had plenty of time to give up Elian peacefully. But that didn't happen. They wouldn't let him go back to Cuba and with his father.

No, I don't like the fact that high-powered rifles were used, but they didn't have any idea what was in that house.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #45
129. If I had a kid being held hostage by nutcases like that,
who might be capable of anything, and who had hinted they might have and use guns, I would have wanted him gotten out the same way.

In a case like that, overwhelming force by trained professionals is probably the safest most effective way to deal with it. It wasn't pretty, but I think the alternatives could have been way worse.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Would you refresh our memories on previous public relations stunts
which Cuba's President has won. I can't recall one.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
86. Some would list the Revolution itself. Any number --
-- of U.S. interests -- most of them not savory -- went down the tubes when Castro swept into Havana.

The Bay of Pigs. A HUGE public relations disaster for John Kennedy, arguably the lowpoint of his presidency.

The Boatlift. It was in a few of the papers.

Bebe Rebozo. President Nixon's good pal with his "interesting" connections to the Cuba issue.

The on-going hold Castro has on left-right politics in the U.S., playing the Cuban-American card like a fiddle while numerous U.S. administrations, including Clinton's, simply and flat-out lost the public relations war with Castro.

Elian Gonzales is just one in a long, long list.
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NeoConsSuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
57. That was quite a public relation stunt..
Castro put everyone on that boat and left it to drift at sea?

You don't need public relation stunts to make the right wingers look like a-holes.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #57
87. We agree that the right wing had a hand in the game but --
-- yes, Castro played that card with finesse.

No question about it.

And the public relations damage to the United States is still being felt.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #41
100. Elian was being used as a political
tool by his so-called loving Florida relatives, clearly. They were the ones playing the fiddles. The first natural law of humanity is respecting the rights of loving parents. If this weren't the case then Hitlerian politics still reigns. The pursuit of a 'better' life is meaningless to a young child. A normal child is happy and content in the arms of their loving/caring parents whether they are living a frugal life or not.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #100
107. lumpy, the child was being manipulated by all sides --
-- as you must agree.

Castro used him, the U.S. used him, the Miami relatives used him, his father used him.

That point is not in dispute here.

My charge against Castro stands, doesn't it? Do you believe he is not keenly aware of the public relations impact his actions have?
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. The Miami relatives had a gun to their head.
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 06:18 PM by Mika
Some of the family in Miami felt that the boy belonged with his father. But after the CANF and the dozens of anti Castro radio stations in Miami, as well as politicians at ALL levels started making a political case out of it (no more than one day after the boy was rescued at sea) the Miami relatives had no choice but sign on to the CANF party line. Or be destroyed.

If they returned the boy to his dad in Cuba (as is usually automatically done in these kinds of cases - where the only living parent and the child both reside in another country - as the 11th Circuit Court eventually ruled) they would have been excoriated and chased out of Miami IF they were left to live.

The Miami relatives were under duress from the radical factions in Miami. They could not return the boy. The only way for them to do so and not be demonized or killed by the radicals within the Miamicuban anti Castro community was to have the border patrol and INS raid the house to get Elian.

Reno knew this. She lived/lives in Miami. That was the deal that Reno arranged with the family. It was their only way out. Alive.


<background>

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-04-20/mullin.html
1968 From MacArthur Causeway, pediatrician Orlando Bosch fires bazooka at a Polish freighter. (City of Miami later declares "Orlando Bosch Day." Federal agents will jail him in 1988.)

1972 Julio Iglesias, performing at a local nightclub, says he wouldn't mind "singing in front of Cubans." Audience erupts in anger. Singer requires police escort. Most radio stations drop Iglesias from playlists. One that doesn't, Radio Alegre, receives bomb threats.

1974 Exile leader José Elias de la Torriente murdered in his Coral Gables home after failing to carry out a planned invasion of Cuba.

1974 Bomb blast guts the office of Spanish-language magazine Replica.

1974 Several small Cuban businesses, citing threats, stop selling Replica.

1974 Three bombs explode near a Spanish-language radio station.

1974 Hector Diaz Limonta and Arturo Rodriguez Vives murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1975 Luciano Nieves murdered after advocating peaceful coexistence with Cuba.

1975 Another bomb damages Replica's office.

1976 Rolando Masferrer and Ramon Donestevez murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1976 Car bomb blows off legs of WQBA-AM news director Emilio Milian after he publicly condemns exile violence.

1977 Juan José Peruyero murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1979 Cuban film Memories of Underdevelopment interrupted by gunfire and physical violence instigated by two exile groups.

1979 Bomb discovered at Padron Cigars, whose owner helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

1979 Bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1980 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1980 Powerful anti-personnel bomb discovered at American Airways Charter, which arranges flights to Cuba.

1981 Bomb explodes at Mexican Consulate on Brickell Avenue in protest of relations with Cuba.

1981 Replica's office again damaged by a bomb.

1982 Two outlets of Hispania Interamericana, which ships medicine to Cuba, attacked by gunfire.

1982 Bomb explodes at Venezuelan Consulate in downtown Miami in protest of relations with Cuba.

1982 Bomb discovered at Nicaraguan Consulate.

1982 Miami Mayor Maurice Ferre defends $10,000 grant to exile commando group Alpha 66 by noting that the organization "has never been accused of terrorist activities inside the United States."

1983 Another bomb discovered at Replica.

1983 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1983 Bomb explodes at Paradise International, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1983 Bomb explodes at Little Havana office of Continental National Bank, one of whose executives, Bernardo Benes, helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

1983 Miami City Commissioner Demetrio Perez seeks to honor exile terrorist Juan Felipe de la Cruz, accidentally killed while assembling a bomb. (Perez is now a member of the Miami-Dade County Public School Board and owner of the Lincoln-Martí private school where Elian Gonzalez is enrolled.)

1983 Gunfire shatters windows of three Little Havana businesses linked to Cuba.

1986 South Florida Peace Coalition members physically attacked in downtown Miami while demonstrating against Nicaraguan contra war.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cuba Envios, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Almacen El Español, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cubanacan, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Car belonging to Bay of Pigs veteran is firebombed.

1987 Bomb explodes at Machi Viajes a Cuba, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes outside Va Cuba, which ships packages to Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes at Miami Cuba, which ships medical supplies to Cuba.

1988 Bomb threat against Iberia Airlines in protest of Spain's relations with Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes outside Cuban Museum of Art and Culture after auction of paintings by Cuban artists.

1988 Bomb explodes outside home of Maria Cristina Herrera, organizer of a conference on U.S.-Cuba relations.

1988 Bomb threat against WQBA-AM after commentator denounces Herrera bombing.

1988 Bomb threat at local office of Immigration and Naturalization Service in protest of terrorist Orlando Bosch being jailed.

1988 Bomb explodes near home of Griselda Hidalgo, advocate of unrestricted travel to Cuba.

1988 Bomb damages Bele Cuba Express, which ships packages to Cuba.

1989 Another bomb discovered at Almacen El Español, which ships packages to Cuba.

1989 Two bombs explode at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1990 Another, more powerful, bomb explodes outside the Cuban Museum of Art and Culture.

1991 Using crowbars and hammers, exile crowd rips out and urinates on Calle Ocho "Walk of Fame" star of Mexican actress Veronica Castro, who had visited Cuba.

1992 Union Radio employee beaten and station vandalized by exiles looking for Francisco Aruca, who advocates an end to U.S. embargo.

1992 Cuban American National Foundation mounts campaign against the Miami Herald, whose executives then receive death threats and whose newsracks are defaced and smeared with feces.

1992 Americas Watch releases report stating that hard-line Miami exiles have created an environment in which "moderation can be a dangerous position."

1993 Inflamed by Radio Mambí commentator Armando Perez-Roura, Cuban exiles physically assault demonstrators lawfully protesting against U.S. embargo. Two police officers injured, sixteen arrests made. Miami City Commissioner Miriam Alonso then seeks to silence anti-embargo demonstrators: "We have to look at the legalities of whether the City of Miami can prevent them from expressing themselves."

1994 Human Rights Watch/Americas Group issues report stating that Miami exiles do not tolerate dissident opinions, that Spanish-language radio promotes aggression, and that local government leaders refuse to denounce acts of intimidation.

1994 Two firebombs explode at Replica magazine's office.

1994 Bomb threat to law office of Magda Montiel Davis following her videotaped exchange with Fidel Castro.

1996 Music promoter receives threatening calls, cancels local appearance of Cuba's La Orquesta Aragon.

1996 Patrons attending concert by Cuban jazz pianist Gonzalo Rubalcaba physically assaulted by 200 exile protesters. Transportation for exiles arranged by Dade County Commissioner Javier Souto.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Little Havana's Centro Vasco restaurant preceding concert by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1996 Arson committed at Tu Familia Shipping, which ships packages to Cuba.

1997 Bomb threats, death threats received by radio station WRTO-FM following its short-lived decision to include in its playlist songs by Cuban musicians.

1998 Bomb threat empties concert hall at MIDEM music conference during performance by 91-year-old Cuban musician Compay Segundo.

1998 Bomb threat received by Amnesia nightclub in Miami Beach preceding performance by Cuban musician Orlando "Maraca" Valle.

1998 Firebomb explodes at Amnesia nightclub preceding performance by Cuban singer Manolín.

1999 Violent protest at Miami Arena performance of Cuban band Los Van Van leaves one person injured, eleven arrested.

1999 Bomb threat received by Seville Hotel in Miami Beach preceding performance by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes. Hotel cancels concert.

January 26, 2000 Outside Miami Beach home of Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, protester displays sign reading, "Stop the deaths at sea. Repeal the Cuban Adjustment Act," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.

April 11, 2000 Outside home of Elian Gonzalez's Miami relatives, radio talk show host Scot Piasant of Portland, Oregon, displays T-shirt reading, "Send the boy home" and "A father's rights," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.


____


Unless you have lived in Miami you have no idea just how violent the anti Castro miamicuban "exiles" are.

This is just a SHORT list of what I could track down in a couple of minutes.

1. 30325M Nibaldo Capote--3/20 Grenade- - - - - Albina Wolfe - - -5900 NW 37 Street

2. 41039M Albina Wolfe - - 4/14 Grenade- - - - - Nibaldo Capote- -1315 SW 19 Street

3. 42114M Student - - - - - 4/17-Pipe- - - - - - - University of Miami - 5602 Merrick
Revolutionaries- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dean's Office

4. 55040M Cubans - - - - - - 5/20-Dynamite - - - Lindsey Hopkins - - - 17 Street & NW
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Blue T-Shirt - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 22 PL

5. 63033M – - - - - - - - -6/7 Dynamite Cap- Henry Ritter - - - - -- 840 NW 144 ST

6. 88039M Machinists Union-8/11 Dynamite - - - - Adam Dalisin - - - 5891 West 10 Ave
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hialeah

7. 76805M Julio Perez Perez- 9/1- Clock, C4 - - - - Boulevard Drive-In - West Palm Beach
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --Batteries, Cap

8. 116433M Cubans - - - - - - 10/20-Dynamite, - - - Publications - - - - - -500 NW 22 Ave
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Note, Pipe - - - Distributors
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -& Fuse

9.116434M Cubans - - - - - - - -10/20- Dynamite, - - - WGBA - - - - - - - - 1301 SW 1st St
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Note, Pipe & Fuse

10. 132884M Salon, Llarena -11/30--Fingers, - - - - - General Electric - 1062 East 2nd St
& Considine - - - - - - - Timer & & Dynamite- - - - - - - - - Hialeah

11. 132688M Salon, Llarena - 12/1- Dynamite, - - - - Overseas Tire Co.-3355 NW 41 St
& Considine- - - - - - - Cap & Fuse

12. 134257M Salon, Llarena 12/1- -Dynamite, - - - - World Transport - 7040 NW 35 Ave
& Considine- - - - - - -Can & Cap


http://cuban-exile.com/doc_001-025/doc0022.html

2/16/75 My Cuba Grocery Miami, Florida Terrorist Bomb- high explosive

2/24/75 Channel 51 (TV station) 777 NE 79 St. Terrorist Bomb- high explosive

3/30/75 L. Magdaleno 3395 SW 28 St. Terrorist Dynamite

5/02/75 Dade Cnty Bridge SW 12 St. & 94 Ave. Non-terrorist (vandalism)

5/11/75 Bay of Pigs Monument SW 8St. & 13 Ave. Terrorist Dynamite

5/14/75 Carlos Gallostra Variety Hospital, SW 31 ST & 59 AV Terrorist Letter Bomb

5/23/75 Robert James Kenny 16480 NE 20 Ave. Non-terrorist Pipe bomb

7/04/75 Coral Park Sr. High 8865 SW 16 St. Non-terrorist Home-made device

7/26/75 Torch of Friendship NE 4 St & Biscayne Blvd Terrorist Rafael Gonzalez High explosive

8/26/75 Replica Magazine 2994 NW 7 St. Terrorist High explosive

8/17/75 Phillips 66 Service Station 490 NW 36 St. Unverified

9/05/75 Arturo Perez 711 NW 57 Ave. Non-terrorist Homicide

9/08/75 Mike Whalen 1950 W. 49 St., Hialeah Non-terrorist

10/03-75 Randolph Kout 2903 NE 103 St. Non-terrorist

10/06/75 Dominican Republic Consulate 1038 Brickell Ave. Terrorist Dynamite

10/17/75 American Lockers Miami Int'l Airport Terrorist Rolando Otero Time bomb

10/20/75 Dominicana Airlines 1440 Biscayne Blvd. Terrorist Time bomb

10/31/75 Rolando Masferrer 6765 SW 27 St. Terrorist Time bomb

11/12/75 June Higgins Dance Studio So. Miami Heights Non-terrorist

11/27/75 Bahama Airlines Miami Int'l Terrorist Castillo, Ruiz, Ortega Plastic explosive.

11/27/75 Perez Stable University of Miami Terrorist Rafael Gonzalez Black powder

12/03/75 Social Security Miami Office Terrorist Rolando Otero "El Condor"
12/03/75 F.B.I. Miami All pipe bombs with timing devices "
12/03/75 U.S. Post Office Miami " " sketch of bomber
12/03/75 Social Security Miami Office " "
12/03/75 Barnett Bank Miami " "
12/04/75 State Atty's Office Miami " "
12/04/75 Miami Police Dept Miami " "

12/09/75 Paul Array 6930 NW 180 St. Non-terrorist

12/12/75 Almacen En Espanol 1359 SW 1 St. Terrorist Time bomb

12/12/75 Almacen En Espanol 910 W. 44 St. Hialeah Terrorist Time bomb

12/16/75 Howard Singer 15300 SW 82 Ave. Non-terrorist

12/18/75 Ramon Donestevez Crandon Marina Terrorist (victim suspected) Dynamite

12/24/75 Roger Smith SW 73 St. & 57 Court Non-terrorist

12/31/75 F.P. & L. Station SW 130 St. & 98 AV Terrorist Rolando Otero Time bomb

1976

01/01/76 Soffla NW 178 St. & 82 AV Non-terrorist Acetylene gas

01/04/76 T.G. Barry's mailbox 13525 SW 69 Ave. Non-terrorist dynamited

01/05/76 Robert Ward's mailbox 781 NW 187 Dr. Non-terrorist bombed

01/08/76 Sergeant 21230 NE 14 Ave. Non-terrorist Mailbox bombed

01/26/76 Robert Schwartz 10561 SW 71 Ave. Non-terrorist Mailbox bombed

01/31/76 Frank Suarez 301 NW 39 Ave. Non-terrorist Powder in plastic bottle

02/01/76 Mario Escandar 275 Deer Run Non-terrorist Blasting caps (narcotic related)

02/08/76 Donald Wagner 8201 SW 62 Ave. Non-terrorist Molotov cocktail

03/75/76 Sebastian's Lounge 2490 SW 17 Ave. Non-terrorist
(suspected of being a homosexual hangout)

03/12/76 Ena Furniture 3400 NW 17 Ave. Non-terrorist Dynamite

03/31/76 Seacot 30 NW No. River Dr. Terrorist Dynamite/time bomb

04/03/76 Coral Gables Police car Univ of Miami Terrorist Dynamite & caps
Student Union bldg Univ of Miami Terrorist Gustavo Castillo, Orestes Ruiz Dynamite & caps

04/14/76 Bay of Pigs Monument SW 8 St. & 13 AV Terrorist Rolando Otero M-26 grenade

04/30/76 Emilio Milian 1301 SW 1 St. Terrorist Dynamite

05/06/76 Adult Book Store 3458 SW 8 St. Terrorist Rafael Gonzalez, Jesus Blas Corbo, Gary Latham

05/11/76 Dade County 1305 SW 40 St. Terrorist

05/25/76 So. Miami Jr. High 6855 SW 56 St. Non-terrorist

06/15/76 Dade County (open field) NW 154 St. & 119 AV Non-terrorist

1977

02/18/77 Evelyn Schwartz 10561 SW 71 Ave. Non-terrorist (vandalism)
previous bombing incident at same location on 1/24/76, victim Robert Schwartz

04/11/7 Smith 11200 W. Golf Dr. Non-terrorist

08/14/77 Venezuelan Military Aircraft Miami Int'l Terrorist Luis Boitel Commando Dynamite

08/15/77 Frederico Boyd 52 NW 9 St. Non-terrorist

08/25/77 Coral Park Apts. 9856 SW 8 St. Non-terrorist (stairwell)

09/19/77 Dupont Plaza Hotel 300 SE Biscayne Blvd Terrorist Luis Boitel Commando
09/19/77 Four Ambassadors 801 So. Bayshore Drive All pipe bombs "
09/19/77 Fontainebleau Hotel 4441 Collins Ave. "
09/19/77 Eden Roc Hotel 4525 Collins Ave. "

11/14/77 Dade County NW 84 St. & 5 Ave. Non-terrorist (road)

12/23/77 Venezuelan Airlines Ticket Off 1600 Collins Ave. Terrorist Luis Boitel
Commando Pipe bomb

1978

02/08/78 Harold Schiffman "Pinky" NE 203 St. & 32 AV Non-terrorist (labor union dispute)

02/23/78 Marco Polo Hotel 19201 Collins Ave. Terrorist (El Condor)

05/10/78 Kaplan Const. SW 92 St. & 70 AV Non-terrorist (portable toilet)

07/18/78 Florida Power & Light, Turkey Point Plant Non-terrorist

08/28/78 Judy Klozewski 16035 SW 103 Pl. Non-terrorist
(homicide, by victim's husband, who also killed victim's mother and beat victim's brother)

09/05/78 Officer J. Carter, FL Game & Fresh Water 1003 NW 9 St., Homestead
Non-terrorist Blasting cap

09/13/78 Dade County Haulover Beach Marina, 10880 Collins Ave. Non-terrorist

1979

03/20/79 Coca Cola Co. 186 SW 1 St. (vending machine) Homestead Non-terrorist

03/24/79 Padron Cigars 1566 W. Flagler St Terrorist Dynamite

04/05/79 John Hill 14920 SW 74 St. Non-terrorist (vehicle)

07/26/79 Padron Cigars 1566 W. Flagler St. Terrorist High explosive

09/08/79 Rev. Manual Espinosa (church) Red Rd. & W. 18 ST Hialeah Terrorist Dynamite

11/02/79 Avant Const Co 84 Crandon Blvd. Key Biscayne Non-terrorist (Halloween vandalism)

1980

01/19/80 State of Florida 1361 W. 33 St. Hialeah Non-terrorist Dynamite cap

2/21/80 So Gear & Machine 3685 NW 106 St. Non-terrorist (possible vandalism) pipe bomb

04/04/80 Dade County 7290 NW 7 Ave. Non-terrorist (open field) Pipe bomb

09/04/80 Steven Forrestall 870 SW 129 Place Non-terrorist (vehicle) Pipe bomb

09/27/80 SW 152 St. & 235 AV Non-terrorist Powder bomb

10/10/80 Semasaro Market 11537 NW 27 Ave. ? Pipe bomb - PVC

11/19/80 Santiago Mena 7980 SW 34 St. Non-terrorist (possible Santeria nexus)
Residue: chlorate and sugar

12/30/80 American Airways 1840 W. 49 St. Hialeah Terrorist Omega 7 Dynamite/time bomb

1981

06/04/81 Unknown 10800 SW 106 Ave. Non-terrorist (narcotics related)

06/19/81 Sanford Burton Pumperniks Deli Non-terrorist (organized crime related) (gambler)

06/30/81 Pipe bomb on engine block of a construction crane 19600 SW 110 Ct. Non-terrorist

07/25/81 Falero Trucking Co. 6767 NW 74 Ave. Non-terrorist (labor related)

07/27/81 National Const. Co 12060 NW So. River Drive Non-terrorist (labor related)

09/11/81 Mexican Consulate 440 Brickell Ave. Terrorist Omega 7 High explosives

09/11/81 Replica Magazine 2994 NW 7 St. Terrorist Omega 7 Propane fire bomb

09/15/81 Eliecen Fernandez 505 SW 102 Ave. Unverified Pipe bomb

09/24/81 Luis Bato (mailbox) 211 SW 119 Ave. Non-terrorist (criminal mischief)

1982

02/19/82 Trans Cuba 2742 SW 8 St. Terrorist Omega 7 57 mm shell with explosive

02/19/82 Replica Magazine 2994 NW 7 St. Terrorist Omega 7 57mm shell with explosive

02/21/82 Padron Cigars 1566 W. Flagler St. Terrorist Omega 7 Molotov cocktail

02/21/82 Hispania Inter-Am Pharmacy 2085 SW 1 St. Terrorist Omega 7 Machine-gun fire

02/22/82 Manuel Lorenzo 2740 NW 16 Tr. Non-terrorist
(owns Majestic Travel Agency, 5574 W. Flagler St.)

03/03/82 Alvin Malnik (vehicle) Crickett Club, 1800 NE 114 St Non-terrorist

04/10/82 Dade County SW 144 St. & 67 Ave. Non-terrorist

06/01/82 Lucille's Market (Khaled A. Khalaf, owner) 9300 NW 17 Ave. ?

06/27/82 Lenny's Cash & Jewelry (Carl Stewart, owner) 810 NW 79 St. Non-terrorist

07/22/82 Cozzoli's Pizza 10734 SW 72 St. Non-terrorist

08/22/82 Anthony Angelos (vehicle) 21000 NE 28 Ave. Non-terrorist (organized crime related)

08/10/82 Yamis Callahan 19523 SW 118 Pl. Non-terrorist (victim believed to be perpetrator)

09/04/82 Venezuelan Consulate 100 Biscayne Blvd. Terrorist Omega 7 Pipe bomb

10/02/82 Bingo Hall (Peter Ruso, owner) 4686 NW 183 ST Non-terrorist (organ crime related)

1983

01/11/83 Replica Magazine 2994 NW 7 St. Terrorist Omega 7 Plastic explosive

01/11/83 Paradise Int'l 940 SW 5 St. Terrorist Omega 7 Plastic explosive

01/11/83 Padron Cigars 1566 W. Flagler St. Terrorist Omega 7 Plastic explosive

03/07/83 Bomb in stolen 9431 SW 4 St. Non-terrorist vehicle abandoned

05/30/83 Continental Bank (Bernard Benes) 1801 SW 1 St. Terrorist Omega 7 Pipe Bomb
06/13/83 Militant Book Store 1237 NW 119 St. Non-terrorist

--

-- May 1, 1987, a pipe bombing at Cubanacan in Miami;

-- May 2, 1987, a pipe bombing at Almacen El Espanol in Hialeah, Florida;

-- May 25, 1987, a pipe bombing at Cuba Envios in Miami

-- July 30, 1987, a pipe bombing at Machi Community Services in Miami;

-- August 27, 1987, a pipe bombing at Va Cuba in Hialeah;

-- January 2, 1988, a pipe bombing at Miami-Cuban in Miami;

-- May 3, 1988, a pipe bombing at the Cuban Museum of Arts and Culture in Miami;

-- May 26, 1988, a bombing at the residence of the executive director for the Institute of Cuban Studies in
Coral Gables, Florida, claimed by the AIC;

-- September 5, 1988, a pipe bombing at Bela Cuba in Miami;

-- September 18, 1988, a bombing intended for a leader of the Reunion Flotilla, a group which advocates that all persons hould be able to enter or leave Cuba as they please, in Miami;

-- February 24, 1989, an attempted pipe bombing at Almacen El Espanol in Miami;

-- March 26, 1989, a bombing at Marazul Charters in Miami; and

-- September 10, 1989, a bombing at Super Optical in Hialeah.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #111
115. I don't dispute your claims but would ask you if you --
-- know this as temporal fact or is it only a theory?

I'm not saying the theory is wrong. I'm asking if you know temporally that this is true or not.

While plausible to my ears, it may yet not be the only explanation.

In any case, the little boy said dolphins buoyed him, whether they did or not; the mother lost her life, no matter the motivation for coming to the United States; and I believe Elian will one day become the mayor of Miami.

The negative treatment Elian's mother has received in this thread stems originally from my making those three claims.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #115
120. Fact. I live in Miami and know the Miamicuban scene.
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 06:20 PM by Mika
I also know that the Miamicuban community is not a monolith. The radical mouthbreathers get the press, the pro normalization w/Cuba crowd get little attention by the US MSM. But, the radicals usually get their way - one way or another. Or they'll try to paint/taint anyone as a "Castro lover". (You might also have seen that here on DU.)

Look at the list of acts of terrorism I have posted (post #111), perpetrated in Miami by radical anti Castro factions - who were exploiting the Miami family and the boy. The Miami family knew what was up. They were ensnared by Alpha 66, Brigade 2506, and the CANF's snarling dogs.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. If someone has suggested that you do not live where --
- you in fact live, then you should correct that person's perception of your address.

That's not what's being discussed in this thread.

People may differ, may they not, on whether Elian Gonzales should have been returned to Cuba. I take Joan Didion's version of Miami as more reputable than ANYONE's, and I say this as a past resident of SE Florida myself.

People may differ, may they not, on whether the child was being fanciful or truthful in saying that dolphins buoyed him as he awaited rescue. There are numerous accounts of porpoises rescuing human beings, especially children.

May differences not also arise in discussing the motivation of any immigrant to the U.S., or would-be immigrant? Might a better life be among the motivations? Or do you take "dick chasing" to be a legitimate characterization of a human being? In how many venues that you frequent would the term "dick chaser" be regarded as approrpiate? My objection to that kind of slander I hope transcends the "Miami" question.

I evidently have to reiterate my prediction of Elian Gonzales' political prospects, should he choose such a path some years from now. Mayor of Miami or President of Cuba, perhaps.



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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #122
126. I wouldn't wish such a thing on anyone, let alone Elian
Mayor of "terror city", the most corrupt city in the US? :puke:



www.stopbolton.org
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #126
127. Many of us are in public service or take political careers --
-- or volunteer for campaigns, etc. because we believe in the people Lincoln referred to in the Address at Gettysburg. We are the of, for and by the people People he's talking about.

We can make a difference and while I typed that Elian may or may not become a mayor of Miami, the NYTimes columnist William Saffire was the first to posit the notion. Name recognition will not be a problem, for example. Same for fundraising.

Houston is also corrupt, yet it has a mayor. Chicago is notoriously corrupt, but it has one also.

He's 11 or so now. In 20 years I would say he is well-positiond to make a huge and positive difference in the lives of many people, whether in Cuba or in the United States.

And I still say we thank the dolphins.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #122
128. Can you post some of these "numerous accounts" of dolphin/child rescues?
Thanks.


I don't hold Elian's mother in high regard. Let alone that she had violated a legal joint custody agreement with her ex husband, she recklessly endangered her son by taking him on a human smuggling op on a leaky boat with a known bad motor, piloted by a known smuggler who had a violent criminal record in both Cuba and Miami, trying to cross the Gulf Stream without any life vest!

That screams for a competency/custody hearing, not an angelization.




Judi Lynn posted a link to an Ann Louise Bardoch doc. Read it.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #128
130. Mika, I don't want you to exhaust yourself on a Google search --
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 06:59 PM by Old Crusoe
-- so here's a little of your homework done for you.

** Dolphins prevent NZ shark attack **
A group of swimmers tells how dolphins protected them from a great white shark off New Zealand's coast.
< http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/4034383.stm >


===

Your tone is a bit bitter this evening, given the notion that a forum ought to be drawn widely enough to include differing views. You don't seem to respond very well to being disagreed with.

I stand by my comments on the mother of Elian Gonzales.

I'm sorry you DON'T like being disagreed with, but you ae in a discussion forum, after all.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #128
186. Yep, you really have the facts straight.
And the facts, as you say, point to his mother endangering her son's life. All of the fairy tales about the story fade under actual scrutiny and truth.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #111
116. Probably the most intelligent explanation I've seen on this. Thanks!
It might throw a kinder light on Marisleysis's trip to the hospital with anxiety problems.

There was so much tension there. I've read of two different people, one a man and one a woman who were set upon by the crowd outside the Gonzalez house, and had to have police personel rescue them when they indicated they believed the child belonged with his own father.

Sounds as if she was truly wise in the way she handled it. Don't doubt it a bit.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #116
124. There were heavily armed Alpha 66 goons at the house
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 06:38 PM by Mika
It is a wonder that there wasn't a major gunfight at the time of the rescue. Kudos to the Miami Border Patrol and INS in that regard.

The family was terrified. The Miamirelatives were so afraid of being tainted that they even handed the boy to Donato Darylrimple (sp) at the time of the raid so they would not be photographed or said to have handed the boy over themselves. Donato did the deed (the famous photos) because he was the man reported to have saved the boy (I know, I know) so he was the only person who could hand him back and not be demonized or killed. (Are you still wondering why Donato was there at the house that late (5 am) on that night?)


Here's the famous photo


Look at the box of B+D syringes in Marislysis' closet. Hmmm. I wonder what/who they were used for/on?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #124
131. Suddenly the DAWN! I surely wondered about Donato Dalrymple.
It all falls into place. You've given it a sense of balance, proportion, meaningfulness which was simply missing to me, otherwise. Amazing.



Didn't know what that box was. Thanks for the illumination!

(I surely remember that crowd insisting the Cuban doctor who came with the little cousin and Elián's schoolmates to the country home outside Washington was carrying drugs and doping up the lil' fella, as well the claim they switched him with another kid altogether for photo purposes, as he had longer hair than Elián!)
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #111
161. I remember when I first moved to Miami
walking down Collins Ave and seeing bombed out restaurants and businesses and most people didn't think it was a big deal. It was just those crazy Cubans killing each other again.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #107
144. His father "used" him? An ugly accusation. Care to back it up?
Also how did the US use him?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #144
158. Here's one bit worth considering:
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 08:06 PM by Old Crusoe
from evote.com:



Gore Questions INS-Cuba Boy Move



MIAMI, Jan 10, 2000 (AP Online via COMTEX) -- Vice President Al Gore today questioned whether the Immigration and Naturalization Service has the expertise to decide the fate of 6-year-old Cuban refugee Elian Gonzalez.

``I'd like to see the dispute adjudicated in our courts, where traditionally questions like what is best for this child are decided,'' Gore said in a New York interview on NBC's ``Today'' show. He added: ``This child's mother died in an effort to get her child's freedom.''

The INS ruled last week that the boy, who was plucked from the sea on Thanksgiving Day after his mother drowned while fleeing Cuba, should be returned to his father in Cuba by Friday. President Clinton and Attorney General Janet Reno have endorsed that ruling.

. . . .

``It's not clear to me that they (INS officials) have the experience and expertise to really address a question like that,'' Gore said. ``Due process ... requires that a question like this be adjudicated by those who have the body of law that applies and the experience in such cases.''

The vice president said Elian's father, Juan Miguel Gonzalez, ``has demonstrators paid by (Cuban President Fidel) Castro chanting outside his window. There is no evidence that he is expressing a sincere, genuine feeling about what is in his child's best interest.''

====
mondo joe, just an offer from me to you: why don't you just try to disagree with a point raised in a discussion rather than make the dispute personal? the Vice President (Gore at the time) outranks me considerably. I was IN Florida during the Gonzales matter and my opinion is equal to yours. Not better but not worse. "An ugly accusation" you write. Write to Gore and let him have it if you want. Both he and the INS conceded that the right to claim asylum did in fact belong to the boy by representation of his Miami guardians.

When you make it personal, you lose focus on the point.

Please argue the points. In this case, you can go over my head if you want to the public record of Vice President Gore.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #158
160. Again, please back up your claim.
I haven't said anything about you personally. I'm asking you to back up your accusation that Elian's father used him.

If you do that to begin with, I won't need to ask you to do so - that's my offer.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #160
167. In the piece I've given you about Al Gore's accusation --
-- of Juan Miguel and the paid demonstrators, you would be more than able to infer that many right-wing governments do this -- pay people to demonstrate in their behalf -- as witnessed even by Dubya and his cynical "controlled" town meetings of like-minded GOP flunkies.

The scale is a bit different but the tactic is the same.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #167
171. Are you suggesting Elian's father paid the protestors?
Again, I want to know just how his father USED Elian.

Thank you.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #107
194. Crusoe, I'd rather you not use
me to try and further your points. OK? The Miami relatives used Elain to try and further their agenda and outrageously exploited the situation going against US law as ordered. Of course Castro's reaction to the event was to be expected; in a sense, I guess you could say Castro 'used' Elian to prove a point that Cuban citizens have the right to determine were their allegience lies. The US used the law and public opinion to protect the rights of that child to be (rightly) with the parent and continue his Cuban citizenship. The father didn't 'use' Elian.what-so-ever. He, quite simply, wanted his son to be with him so the kid could have the security of a loving/caring parent.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
138. High powered rifles would not have been necessary if not for the nuts
trying to keep the child from being reunited with his father.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #138
151. The public relations damage done to the United States --
-- is the point.

Reno had a string of heavy-handed decisions -- the Waco, Texas incident, this, etc. The international impression was that a police state mentality had laid claim to the "land of the free and home of the brave."

The Far Right -- in Miami-Dade County and elsewhere -- were more than capable of orchestrating this to render the Clinton administration useless and ineffective, if not reviled. The effect, at the very least, would have been to consolidate Republican votes in Miami-Dade and to continue to use certain connections among the virulent Castro-haters as money sources and uh ... nefarious operations, not to put too fine a point on it.

In a post below, mondo joe, I give you this:
http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/11th/0011424opn.html

if you want to have a look at the original claim for asylum.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #151
152. The INTERNATIONAL impression or the national right wing
spiel?
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. keeping him here dishonored
the US, Family values, Fathers rights. The father appeared when he heard who was caring for him, Drunks and nuts.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. We disagree. Characterizing people as "drunks and --
-- nuts" because they were happy to see their young relative seems unfair to me.

The United States as it stands now is a wild mix of many ethnic origins. One more young man from Cuba would not have "dishonored" a damn thing.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. looks like they were drunk and crazy to me
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/717071.stm
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. I saw the footage and was in the city at the time.
You're on a bit of a hot streak, Cat Woman.

"Dick chaser." "Drunks." "Nuts."

Would you abide my neighbor from my childhood days, Dewey?

Dewey was a Kentuckian, transplanted to northern Cincinnati. Dewey believed that black people were "lazy." "Shiftless." And quite a bit more I won't type since this is a family paper.

I hear no difference in his slanderous and racist remarks from the vitriol that's been heaped on this little guy's mother.

She drowned, people. And you're throwing stones at her grave.

Jesus.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
102. Only happy to see their
young relative because they could use him in their unrestained desire to unseat Castro and bring further disaster to the Cuban people. Iraq is a fine example of how the distruction of societies comes about by outside influences and invasion to bring 'freedom and democracy'to the people. The more desirable evolution of sociatal changes is a slow process accomplished through education and awareness.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
193. Cat Woman is exactly right! Mom only used her son for a tool
for her own greed, not for his own good.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
60. Wrong. His father had custody.
His mother kidnapped him and risked his life by boarding that boat to America.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #60
105. Not wrong, Lindacooks. Incomplete. The kid's parents --
-- were divorced. The father had remarried and had kids by the new wife. There was joint custody but Elian lived with his mother.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #105
118. Nope, WRONG.
I don't care how many 'kids by his new wife' the father had. HE IS THE CHILD'S FATHER and THE ONLY SURVIVING PARENT and should be given custody. PERIOD.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #118
125. I'm real comfortable with 'incomplete,' owing to the massive --
-- controversy among international legal counsel in this case.

It was also a public relations hot potato, which overlaps the intent and effectiveness of law often times.

You will agree, will you not, that the case was not a finger-snap?

And also that it took the Attorney General of the United States and rifles to "solve" it?

It didn't occur as a black-and-white event, no matter how certain you are of your position.

It occured as an international controversy, over which reasonable people may differ in their opinions.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #118
133. It's my understanding that he WAS the custodial parent
when they were living in Cuba, and that Elian was concieved (deliberately) after the parents were either divorced or separated. They had had fertility problems and the mother had had 8 miscarriages, and they had finally gone to a fertility specialist in Havana, even though the marriage was already over.

The "father had married and had children with another woman" line sounds alot worse than simply saying that Elian had a stepmother and a baby half brother who were also part of his custodial family. It happens all the time in the US. People aren't considered horrible parents because of it. Anyway, the mother had a boyfriend who was a human smuggler and she's regarded as a saint. I don't get the double standard.

And yes, especially considering that he was already the custodial parent, there should have been absolutely no question about returning him to his father.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #133
147. Whether he was or not, the 11th Circuit determined that --
--< 8 > The INS concedes that Plaintiff is eligible to apply for asylum pursuant to Section 1158.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #147
154. Again, that has nothing to do with custodial rights of the extended fuck-
up family.

They have no say while the child has a living competent involved parent. Same as any other family.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #147
156. It was my impression that the courts determined
that a custodial adult, i.e his father, could apply for political asylum on his behalf should he so choose, which he didn't. I don't believe that any court ever determined that a six year old could apply on his own behalf, or that someone not having legal custody, i.e. the Miami relatives could do it on his behalf.

If I'm wrong about this, then why was their never any asylum hearing?
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #147
157. Then, the 11th CC went on to say..
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 08:05 PM by Mika
In this case, because the law -- particularly section 1158 -- is silent about the validity of Plaintiff's purported asylum applications, it fell to the INS to make a discretionary policy choice. The INS, exercising its gap-filling discretion, determined these things: (1) six-year-old children lack the capacity to sign and to submit personally an application for asylum; (2) instead, six-year-old children must be represented by an adult in immigration matters; (3) absent special circumstances, the only proper adult to represent a six-year-old child is the child's parent, even when the parent is not in this country; and, (4) that the parent lives in a communist- totalitarian state (such as Cuba),14 in and of itself, does not constitute a special circumstance requiring the selection of a non-parental representative. Our duty is to decide whether this policy might be a reasonable one in the light of the statutory scheme.



They did decide. They decided that the INS did exercise its gap-filling discretion in a reasonable way. Elian's dad represented the boy. Juan Miguel did not apply for asylum for Elian.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
61. Correction:
Elian's parents were divorced, and the father was remarried and had another son with his second wife.

The parents had joint custody, and Elian spent about half his time with his father.

The mother did indeed take Elian without his father's permission (custodial interference) and follow her boyfriend, who had been back and forth to the States several times.

My church happened to be sponsoring a Cuban refugee at the time, a genuine former political prisoner, and she was utterly scornful of the Miami relatives' statements, especially when they talked about Elian's mother "dying to give her son freedom."

"Half those so-called refugees just want to shop at WalMart," she said.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Thanks
I couldn't remember if they were divorced or just separated. Either way, she took him out of the country without the father's permission.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #61
88. You are correct on the joint custody but your church's --
-- refugee experience does not equal Elian Gonzales' mother's experience. They are not equal, but individual, and the jump from a question about why a Cuban mother might want freedom in the U.S. to the trivialization of her death with the WalMart comment is unearned.

I don't believe you believe that, LLC. Jesus didn't ride into town on the back of an ass for publicity and I do not believe this kid's mother came to the U.S. to shop at WalMart.
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lolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
70. Father was NOT out of the picture
The parents appeared to have some sort of joint custody.

Mom fell in love with a guy who wanted to come to the U.S., so she took the kid in violation of custody agreements. It never sounded as if love of democracy or capitalism was her main reason; she just wanted to be with her man; to heck with her son's safety.

The fact that she and her boyfriend died is tragic, but illustrates just how much danger she put this kid in.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. The debate as regards separation or divorce, etc. of --
-- parents, especially of young children, involves the emotional loss of the child rather than the "rights" of the parents.

The courts decide based on adult leverage and not always the child's well-being.

From http://www1.divorcenet.com/relations/otc-08.html

-- is this brief passage:

===

In the first story, Elian Gonzales has become a visible pawn in the fight between family factions. That he lost his mother has almost been buried in political ideology. Is it the father's right to parent his son as he sees fit or do relatives have the right, even obligation, to give Elian the life his mother died for? Whatever the outcome of this struggle, Elian will be the one whose emotional scars will be deep and probably remain for a very long time.

In the second instance, The Supreme Court will rule on Troxel vs. Granville or whether parent's rights supersede those of all others: in this case, the grandparents of the deceased father. However the court rules; it will be the children who will suffer. Either, they will lose the opportunity to have additional grandparents to love them or, they will be confronted with negotiating a confusing relationship interwoven with that of a deceased parent from their now long ago past.

===
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
80. Nice to meet you. Apparently we are tag team posting CANF agents.
God forbid liberals don't all post in lockstep here at DU. How dare you not join in the 5 minutes of hate directed at Cubans in Miami. :sarcasm:
I am sure we will disagree on some other thread. For now, I think your posts have been fair minded and rational.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #80
89. MollyStark, hello, and sorry for the tardiness in responding --
-- but a friend faced a bit of a personal crisis and I had to zoom out the door.

I'm back now and am checking the boards on DU.

Thank you for your comment. It was getting to a point where I assumed that to offer a lyrical and contemplative response to this topic was the same as shooting someone's dog.

My points really were easy, I thought. Elian should thank the dolphins which he himself said buoyed him in the water; the loss of the mother through her sacrifice is dishonored by return of the child to Cuba; and subsequently, a defense of one woman from Cuba who has been accused of "dick chasing" and wanting to sate her craving to shop at WalMart.

Good god almight there sure is some strong feeling out there on this little boy's mom.

I appreciate your post very much & hope to run into you again on DU.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
139. It is my understanding that American family law
does not recognize any custody rights at all for great uncles and second cousins. They would have no more claim to custody than a completely unrelated person.

If people want the law changed to give distant relatives potential custody claims on children then the law should be changed. I would be very cautious about making such a change however, unless you want distant relatives, who may be richer than you and able to give your child a "better life" to be in a position where they might be able to grab custody of your own children against your will. I don't believe most American citizens want child custody law to be changed in that fashion, but I suppose anyone has the right to advocate for it.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
140. To answer the question: Fuck the relatives. They have no say
while Elian's actual parent is alive and involved.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #140
149. The 11th Circuit Court begs to differ with you.
http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/11th/0011424opn.html


and in particular:

<8> "The INS concedes that Plaintiff is eligible to apply for asylum pursuant to Section 1158.

(Elian Gonzales and assigns are 'Plaintiff')
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #149
153. To the contrary - the 11th doesn't differ with me at all on the point
of custodial rights of the extended family.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #149
172. Actually, the 11th CC begs to differ with you
In this case, because the law -- particularly section 1158 -- is silent about the validity of Plaintiff's purported asylum applications, it fell to the INS to make a discretionary policy choice. The INS, exercising its gap-filling discretion, determined these things: (1) six-year-old children lack the capacity to sign and to submit personally an application for asylum; (2) instead, six-year-old children must be represented by an adult in immigration matters; (3) absent special circumstances, the only proper adult to represent a six-year-old child is the child's parent, even when the parent is not in this country; and, (4) that the parent lives in a communist- totalitarian state (such as Cuba),14 in and of itself, does not constitute a special circumstance requiring the selection of a non-parental representative. Our duty is to decide whether this policy might be a reasonable one in the light of the statutory scheme.




They did decide.

They decided that the INS did exercise its gap-filling discretion in a reasonable way. Elian's dad represented the boy.

Juan Miguel did not apply for asylum for Elian, and therefore had the right to take him back to his home & school & friends & family in Cuba. Which he did.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
200. Hi, CatWoman! Found something which appears to substantiate
what you wrote Saturday, in a book by Ann Louise Bardach, who was a reporter for the New York Times, and thoroughly researched the Elián Gonzalez story. She went to Cuba and talked to friends and relatives, and looked up friends and relatives of people in Miami.

This passage (I haven't read it all, just skimmed until I ran into this area which looks like what you've said already!) refers to a letter the author saw at the home of the boyfriend "Rafa" Munero's aunt and uncle in Miami. They had given it to the CANF, who never released it, as it didn't bolster their claims about her.

From the book:
The central argument of the Miami lawyers was that Elisa had died to bring her son to freedom, but they never offered any evidence to support their claim...
(snip)

Indeed, the letter seemed to undermine the lawyers' case that Elisa had given her life to bring her son to freedom. It made no mention of such a desire or even a passing reference to any troubles in Cuba:only that she wanted to be with her boyfriend, wherever he might be. In fact, the letter supported the contention of Elisa's friends and family-namely that she had risked and lost her life for love.
(snip)
From the book, in a visit to her friend, Lisbeth, in Cuba:
Nor does Lisbeth believe that Elisa wanted to bring her son to America so that he could have more opportunity. "That is a bunch of lies that 'the boy should go to the land of liberty,' she huffed, "beacause those thoughts were never expressed by Elisa. They were never her ideals nor her thoughts. I can say that for sure." And she was certain that her friend told no one of her plans-not a friend, a relatiave, not her mother and certainly not Juan Miguel, who she says would have taken immediate action to stop her.
(snip)
Pages 24,25
Cuba Confidential
Ann Louise Bardach

Also, on the first page of the first chapter, "The Shipwreck," it says:
All of the fifteen aboard had their own reasons for leaving, their own expectations, their own dreams. Some were seeking more opportunity, some were fleeing a spouse or family in Cárdenas, and some loathed Fidel Castro and communism, and some wanted better clothes and a better house. But the glue that bound the group together was love and family: the love of a spouse or a sibling waiting for them in America-the dream of family reunification.
This passage would confirm what you wrote yesterday, also.

http://www.randomhousemondadori.com.mx/Bardach,%20Ann%20Louise.jpg

Ann Louise Bardach.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Some stories later said the idea of the dolphins came from the fact
Sam Ciancio, the man who got Elián Gonzalez out of the water, and Dalrymple, his cousin, were out FISHING FOR DOLPHIN, as in the dolphin fish when they found the kid.

Lunatic hysterical drama queens took the word and ran, just like they also gibbered that the Virgin had appeared in the bathroom mirror in Lázaro Gonzalez' house.

The mother, Elisabeth Broton took the child without the father's permission. They had joint custody. She was travelling here to be with her ex-con common law husband, who had made trips back and forth, and was also bringing some of his family members, as well as some he was charging a fee for the ride.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. The child expressly indicated dolphins had buoyed him --
-- as in porpoises, not the separate species called 'dolphin.'

Whether the account is actual is anyone guess, because the mother and others died at sea, drowned. Elian may be right -- there are such accounts of porpoises rescuing humans. He ma be telling a wild tale, too. It's a tough guess when the witness is 6 years old and he has just lost his mother.

The Cuban-American community in Miami was rightly invested in this story and accounts there -- I was working in Miami at the time -- are clear about the father not living with the mother in Cuba.
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Johnyawl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. No, Elian's parents were not living together, they were divorced

and living apart, but in the same town in Cuba. His mother was living with her boyfriend, who died with her on the raft. His father was remarried, and living with his wife and their son, Elian's half brother, the brother that Elian expressed so much happiness at being reunited with. Which made it pretty clear to me that his father, like so many of us divorced fathers, was trying to maintain a presence in his sons life.

I utterly detest what the Maimi Cubanos did with this story, the way they twisted it to slander the father, and make a saint out of the mother. It was just a pair of divorced parents going their own way, struggling to lead their own lives, and some poor kid is caught in the middle.

To me, this was always about father's rights, and god bless Janet Reno and the courts for recognising, and enforcing, that father's inherent right to raise his own child.

Had that been the father dead on the raft, and his MOTHER in Cuba demanding her child be returned to her, not even the most rabid anti-Castro Maimi Cubano would have denied her.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Right on, JY
right on!!!

:hi:

again, the level of disinformation around her astounds.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Cat Woman, I must say that your characterization of the --
- child's mother "chasing dick" acrosss the ocean has not particularly assisted the problem of misinformation.

Rather it has encouraged it.

What a slam on a woman's character.

If the male mayor of Miami had insisted the child be returned because all his mother was up to was "chasing dick" across the ocean, I believe feminists would have strangled him in broad daylight, and properly so.

Your characterization is a slam, and a needless slam at that.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. whatever.
because that's exactly what happened.

plus, she had absolutely NO RIGHT kidnapping that child.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. A male responding with "Whatever" would be excoriated --
-- by those same feminists.

Your comment dishonored a woman. That's all I'm saying, and that's the only point of view I raise with you..

Was she a saint? Well, I hope not. Because I'm far from it and if she had lived, she would show me up big time.

But she was the child's mother. He doesn't know about the technical and legal questions raised by his experiences. He only knows that his mother drowned at sea.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Good thing I'm not a male, I suppose
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 01:08 PM by CatWoman
however, that was my choice of words.

I'm not backing away from them, either.

on edit:

Elian Gonzalez, the six-year-old Cuban boy who is at the heart of an
international custody or kidnapping row since being rescued from the sea
off Florida, is still being used by the rightwing in the US to score cheap
political points with no consideration for the mental anguish of his father
or the effects of this prolonged psychological abuse on the boy
himself.

Elian's parents in Cuba were divorced, his father having custody. His
mother remarried, to a man Fidel Castro said "never worked a day in his
life!"

Her new husband illegally entered the USA and lived there for three months
before returning — again illegally — to Cuba.

Arrested and jailed, he promised to find work and was released, but instead
he built a flimsy boat and charged other would-be immigrants to the USA
US$1,000 to join him on the boat.

It is believed he was the driving force in persuading Elian's mother last
November to take the boy from his father and make the run to the USA. The
boat went down off the Florida coast in bad weather. Elian's mother, her
husband and nine other Cubans drowned.

http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve1/985cuba.html
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. The kid's mother drowned, Cat Woman.
That was my point.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #44
81. drowned because of the Cuban Readjustment Act
which gives Cubans the wet foot/dry foot option that is not given to Hatians or Mexicans.It is totally unfair and an insult to all the other carribea anf Latino immigrants who are unceremoniously deported. It should be repealed immediately. I just don't buy the "freedom" from communism story.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #81
91. You aren't required to buy it but you are asked to consider --
-- it as a possible motivation, perhaps a likely motivation.

You are also asked to reconsider the characterization in this thread of a would-be immigrant as a "dick chaser" and a craven WalMart shopper.

That's slanderous and low-rent talk no matter to whom it's directed and suggests a stubborn point-of-view and unwillingness to consider the maximum number of possibilities.

The woman drowned and a child was left motherless. Nevertheless, some folks on this thread don't feel she's been properly disciplined and have taken it onto themselves to perform the task.

It's needlessly punitive and it's bad form.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. At no time did I claim that Elian Gonzales' parents were --
-- living together.

Indeed I expressly stated that they were separated. Divorced. Not living together.

Thus the argument of the custodial parent.

As the Miami HERALD reported, the Cuban-American community did in fact exert much pressure to keep the boy in Miami but the father did not appear on the scene until after meeting with Fidel Castro's representatives. It became just as manipulative for the father and Castro to be using the boy as for anyone else to be.

My initial response was that Elian should thank also the dolphins as well as those who brought him to safety, and that I thought he would perhaps one day become the Mayor of Miami.

I also suggested that the loss of his mother was entirely neglected in terms of her loss of life and sacrifice in seeking a better life. The Cuban-Americans who are hate-Castro thinkers can sometimes be one-dimensional in that hate, but they are quite right to suggest he is a repressive asshole. Cuban prisons accounts attest to this and Amnesty International concurs.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
43. Exactly
If it had been the father bringing him over to the US, we would have gotten a full lesson on mother rights and kidnapping.

Taking a child without the permission of the other parent is kidnapping.

If Elian hated his father, there was nothing holding him back from saying so while he was here (and I'm sure the relatives in Miami probably would have encouraged him to speak up).
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
145. This baby brother?


And evil stepmother?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. Who told you the Elian said anything?
Do you speak Spanish? Were you there? If not then you have no idea what he said. But I can tell you this, there were no dolphins. Elian was NOT at sea in an inner tube for any length of time. The whole kidnapping had been arranged by his mother's SO and was a staged event. Yes, people died. The poor Cubans who paid this guy to take them to Miami probably didn't know what he was really up to and that they were about to get screwed.

This isn't a story about freedom loving Cubans giving their lives to get a boy to Miami, it is about money, greed and politics and how CANF helped Bush become president. That's what this was all about.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Your take on my remarks is careless.
If you read my initial response to your post, you'll see that no clinical, temporal evidence is posited in favor of the presence of dolphins.

I am quoting Elian as quoted by the Miami Herald and ABC. I heard him say this to Dianne Sawyer on national television.

I speak a respectable traveler's Spanish, yes, and I know 'delfino' in context.

And I would surprised indeed to learn that you were there and witnessed the event.

If you were, then you could enlighten all of us. If you were not, your absence is not lesser or greater than mine or anyone else's, and so my take on this is as good as yours.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #38
54. Because your take on it is based
on having to buy the party line and there is overwhelming evidence that the party line is based on bullshit.

Of course, I wasn't there nor have I ever met Elian in person. However, I lived in Miami for many years and I was a live aboard for a a part of that time. What I do know for a fact is that this child was not in the ocean for 4 hours no less 24 - 48.



A child this age, even after just a few hours in the water would be showing signs of severe exposure. Within 24 hours, he would be dehydrated, his skin would be blistered and he probably would have had 2nd to 3rd degree burns on the exposed areas of his body. His lips would have been blistered and swollen. Elian exhibited none of these symptoms as is clear in the above picture.

Under these conditions, Elian should have required hospitalization and at the least IV fluids for a period of between 24 - 48 hours. The fact that Elian was released from the hospital on the same day he was found and that the INS was able to ID him and find relatives to take him in in such a short period of time is beyond belief. At the least, the hospital should have required an over night stay and you would think the INS and the DCF would have wanted to do a background check before releasing any child in their custody.


Here's a link to a report that you won't see in the MSM, that has a lot of information in regards to the Elian story that you might find interesting.

http://www.nutshellnotes.com/Cuba%20Folder/ElianGozales.htm
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #54
66. The link you posted disputes your own story
How long does it say he was in the water?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #54
103. What party line are you talking about? Reno's?
I do my own thinking on things, DYEW, as I assumed you do.

But the bitter tongues directed at this kid's mother in this thread suggest to me a level of dismissal I rarely see anyplace, at least among adults.

She was a "dick chaser." That went unchallenged but for my lone objection.

The feminist argument pertains. So does the racist argument. So does the anti-immigrant-0no-matter-what argument.

Do they not?

The kid told Dianne Sawyer dolphins buoyed him. I have no idea how long he was in the water -- five minutes, five hours, two days -- I'm not interested in the lips and skin exposure issues -- a physician checked him and he survived, unlike his mother.

And it's his mother who is the question here.

Why would you let it stand that she was a craven soul risking her son's life just to come shop at WalMart, as one poster has suggested? Or that she was here to "chase dick" ? Where and in what other circumstance would you permit that kind of slander?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #103
109. After reading various accounts
that have been published by the people directly involved, Elian's mother didn't sound like much of a prize. I don't think she had any yearning for freedom and democracy. Her current SO wanted her to take a dangerous trip and despite her better judgment she went anyway and endangered the life of her own child. Sorry there are other ways, though difficult, to leave Cuba if you are so determined. I personally know 100's of Cubans in Miami who got here through legitimate means.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #109
112. Unless there is some hardcore and immutable account --
-- that the woman is a "dick chaser" or a craven retail-hungry WalMart wanna-be-shopper, I believe a Cuban woman has been savagely mischaracterized here.

I see no justification for that, either from accounts in the Miami HERALD, in subsequent coverage by various other news sources, and I object to it on grounds that it is slanderous.

None of us knows what sort of "prize" anyone is. That's between the two people involved, is it not?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #112
119. I don't consider known felons
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 06:14 PM by DoYouEverWonder
to be prizes, sorry.

It seems Elian's mom didn't have the best choice of partners the second time around? Most people who make bad choices in relationships, make bad choices about a lot of other important things too.

The company you keep says a lot about a person, don't you think?

Most Cubans I know don't associate with this class of people.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #119
123. Not so. You do not speak for "most Cubans." Nor do you --
-- speak for most Cuban-Americans. Nor do you speak for anyone else but yourself. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Others may do their own thinking.

Including Elian Gonzales' mother. She chose that partner and her choice of partners, if I may say so, is noen of your business, now or ever.

You don't have to like the choice but you have no choice but to respect her right to make it.

I hope that isn't too liberal a position.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #123
132. You sure like to attack
people on a personal level. Would you like to try to discuss the fact or should I just start to ignore you?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #132
135. My statements were facts. You speak only for yourself.
As such, you are not less, or more, qualified to voice an opinion on this matter than anyone in this thread, on DU, or anyplace else.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #135
155. Coming from someone
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 07:58 PM by DoYouEverWonder
who believes that the dolphins came to help Elian proves you don't have a firm grasp of any facts.

You are no more qualified to voice your opinion on this subject then anyone else around here. If you don't like it, there are other forums that may be more receptive to your POV.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #155
164. You have a wrong perception of your own stated point.
Dolphin rescues occur. They are documented. A post below lists one such.

My grasp is good enough to follow the point without becoing territorial, as you have. Your original post staked a claim to a viewpoint, not a point. You were playing to the crowd. You stoked the bias.

Then when you were disagreed with, the vitriol came out. You had opportunities to consider the points raised, but because they didn't fit your bias, you refused. You refuse to this moment.

The vice president of the United States at that time believed that the mother did in fact seek freedom in the United States. Take it up with him if you want. I agree with him, but of course that has no place in a discussion with you in it, does it. Would you tell Al Gore that Elian's mother was a "dick chaser"? Just asking.

If you have a personal reason why you won't consider alternative views, other people's takes on a point, state it. If not, we're left to assume you're just inclined to be dismissive.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #164
168. really? How many kids each year are rescused by dolphins ?
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 08:22 PM by mondo joe

Heck, I'll even take teenagers and adults into account.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #164
182. Your link was not a rescue. It was dolphins attacking sharks
Maybe to protect their own babies, and because they were in close proximity to humans, the humans -typically- think it was all about them.

:shrug:


Still your link proved no rescue, just some statements by scared humans feeling lucky.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #132
137. It's so simple. If you don't agree with right-wing Miami extremists
you are inflexible, rigid, low in nature, and probably a commie!
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #137
143. Judi Lynn, here's an offer. Order a used copy of Joan Didion's --
-- book MIAMI from Amazon or Alibris or one of the other on-line book dealers -- you can usually get it for well under 10 bucks -- read it -- then PM me.

If you do not believe she is the best going observer and that her research on the Cuban-American question is top-drawer, I will refund you the cost of the used book plus shipping.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #54
195. Correction of the above link
I posted the wrong link. Here is a clip and the link that I was really looking for.

MADNESS IN MIAMI by Michael Lopez-Calderon


It was 4:30 a.m. Sunday morning when Lazaro Rafael Munero Garcia, 24, clambered aboard a 17-foot aluminum "boat" powered by an Evinrude 50-h.p. motor.6 Crowded into the craft were fourteen other passengers that included Arianne Horta Alfonso, her five-year-old daughter, Esthefany, Elizabeth Brotons Rodriguez and her then five-year-old son, Elian.

Absent was Juan Miguel Gonzalez Quintana, 31, the father of Elian and estranged husband of Elizabeth. He was not informed of the planned escape.

Engine failure caused the group to return to Cuban shores within an hour of departure. They would attempt their illegal and dangerous journey the next morning minus one five-year-old child. Arianne Horta Alfonso realized the great peril involved and decided to leave Esthefany with her grandmother in Cardenas. A question that too few have asked and one that so desperately needs an answer: Why didn't Elizabeth Brotons Rodriguez follow Ms. Horta's example and spare her own five-year-old child from the dangerous journey to the United States?

Few have dared to question Elizabeth's judgement now that she has been elevated to near sainthood status. We have heard much from the two adult survivors of that fateful journey. Both Arianne Horta Alfonso and Nivaldo Vladimir Fernandez Ferran have traveled to Washington, D.C., the tab picked up by the Cuban American National Foundation (CANF), and addressed the national media with melodramatic accounts of Elizabeth's last words: "Make sure Elian makes it to America, to freedom." However, they have provided little account of a dialogue that must have taken place that Sunday morning of November 21, 1999. A dialogue that we reasonably can assume included the following pleas: "Elizabeth, why don't you leave Elian on the beach with Esthefany? Arianne's mother will take him back to Cardenas. This journey is just too dangerous." Or perhaps: "Elizabeth, he's too young to make this trip. If he drowns, how will you ever live with yourself?" Any number of persons in the "boat" surely must have uttered comments similar to the above. Thus far, Ms. Horta and Mr. Fernandez have offered little that would help uncover the truth.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000916025617/http://www.geocities.com/michael_calderon/madness.htm
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #195
199. I read an article on the two after they had been in Miami a while.
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 02:27 PM by Judi Lynn
They got jobs through the Cuban community, with Nivaldo working for a car dealer. They rented an apartment. They were quoted in saying that they worked hard all day, and had so little money they could not afford a car, had to stay in a very small apartment.

The man claimed to have worked as a chef in Cuba, and also claimed the house he had lived in was far larger, with a marble floor, or something similar. He sounded burned out.

They both indicated they were looking forward to having lived here one full year, as it would allow them the opportunity to travel back to Cuba, (as in a visit, I assume) taking some small gifts for their relatives.

Here's a photo of them which appeared in a Miami newspaper.



Arianne and Nivaldo
in front of Elian's
second cousin,Georgina
Cid. I believe she is
the one with the violent
twin felon brothers.
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
63. Can you prove there were no dolphins?
Can you prove that he was only on the ocean for an hour?

One of the things this was about was freedom loving Cubans risking their lives to get to America. People don't risk thier lives like this because Cuba is paradise.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. There were no dolphins
because he was not in the water on an inner tube, except for the rescue by the 'fishermen'.

I live in this part of the world and I've spent 100 hours out on that water. Strange things happen out there but it was humans not dolphins who transported Elian to Miami.
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. That's not what the link you provided says
It says he was in the water for a few days. I might have missed a paragraph or two. :shrug: Did I?

You have no idea if there were dolphins. Many of us have lived in florida. There are dolphins in those waters and there are stories of dolphins saving or protecting humans. It could have happened.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #67
85. I did not say that my link pointed to this information
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 04:56 PM by DoYouEverWonder
I base my conclusions on the visual evidence, which apparently one of Elian's MDs who examined him also confirmed.

I can tell you that the first time I saw a picture of Elian on the stretcher, I knew the story about him hanging on an inner tube for one to two days was a bunch of bull. I base this upon my experience from living and traveling on sailboats in the FL Keys and Miami. In four hours an adult with darker skin would be fried. Any child after 12 hours would require hospitalization.

The dolphin story was a nice fantasy that played right into the beliefs of the Cuban Santerias in Miami. It was part of turning Elian into a saint.
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. Elian went into the water on the 23rd and was resuced the 25th
What did I miss?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #69
113. Prove it
n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. People risk their lives like this and lose, by the hundreds, annually
trying to cross the desert, or the water between Mexico and Texas west to California. That number would include many South and Central Americans who come through Mexico to get here, just as the Cuban "exile" terrorist, Luis Posada Carriles claims he entered the States the last time after he was released from prison in Panama.

Also, hundreds die annually trying to come from both Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, etc., etc. in the water. Haitians have to travel, in some cases, over 700 miles. When all of THESE people arrive here, they are returned to their countries after getting caught, instead of receiving instant work visas, Section 8 Housing, immediate legal status, free medical treatment, financial assistance for education, food stamps, etc., etc. like the Cubans, under the Cuban Adjustment Act.

Can you imagine how many people would die between here and those islands or between here and Mexico if we offered these inducements to others? Oh, yeah. Something hs been added. More American fools will be showing up on the border to do some patriotic shooting at the "illegals."
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. No shit
I knew all of that. What does it have to do with anything I said?
Shark infested waters off of Florida are scary for both Cubans and Haitians the treatment they get is unfair. I doubt that people crossing the desert think it is quite as dangerous though it may be.
That doesn't change the fact that people risk their lives to escape Cuba.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. They know exactly how dangerous it is. Why wouldn't they?
Would you suggest they are a bunch of Hellen Kellers who are totally unaware of the THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of people killed trying to get across? Maybe their friends and relatives are unable to hear or see, as well, and couldn't warn them.



More immigrants on the move.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. You failed to understand what you wrote, apparently.
Here's the text:
One of the things this was about was freedom loving Cubans risking their lives to get to America. People don't risk thier lives like this because Cuba is paradise.
People don't leave all their homes in Latin America and the Caribbean, risking death as they do because their own homes are "paradise."

A lot of newspaper stories are starting to refer to Cubans as "immigrants" for the last few years, by the way, as opposed to "tormented, terrified refugees."
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #63
82. nor do "Freedom Loving" Mexicans and Hatians
freedom loving indeed
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. They had joint custody, and the father took the child to school
and picked him up, as well as taking him on weekends. At that time the child had his own room and his own air conditioner, as well as his toys, etc., not to mention his cousins, aunts, uncles, four grandparents, neighbors, and school friends.

The mother, Elisabet was living with a criminal, Lázaro Muñero, who was known to have beaten her. It was stupid of her to bring the child to live with that convict in the States.

A letter to PBS from Florida, concerning Elián:
Dear FRONTLINE,

A splendid program...fair, balanced & accurate reporting of an issue heretofore dominated by passion, propaganda & self-serving deviousness.

As a physician working in Miami when Elian was plucked from the Gulf Stream I too was amazed at his remarkably good physical condition when first seen at the Hospital. I was even more impressed when his pediatrician reported to me that the boy was neither dehydrated nor sun-burned despite the report of being at sea for several days & in the water for 48 -72 hours!

Now it may be convenient to invoke dolphins & God's miracles to explain this absence of physical evidence of exposure. It is more likely this boy was in the water a an hour or two at most. Indeed, rational folks may wonder if this whole story may have been a staged event by the Cuban-American, anti-Castro group of "exiles" to gain several months of Front page news & priceless TV time. Oh, do they love a conspiracy!

Thank you Janet Reno to see that justice & common-sense prevailed!

S. J. Peerless MD
punta gorda, florida
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/elian/talk/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


As to what he did or didn't say to the propaganda-minded, criminal family members with whom he stayed, or to the CANF authorities whom are known for having sponsored bombers to conduct terrorism against Cuba for over 40 years, about DOLPHINS is truly anyone's guess.

Someone may have decided they needed an IMAGE to stir their feeble, superstition-driven minds in a way to cause them to stampede over to the drunken great-uncle's house and set up such an uproar there was ALWAYS so much noise going on outside the family could hear them around the clock.

Who will ever forget the fact they deprived that child of his normal sleep and kept him up until the morning hours coaching him and taping him until he produced that revealing bit of tape telling his dad he didn't want to go home! Shame, bitter shame on those heathens.
I think it was local swine power politician Armando Gutierrez who came waddling out to inform the crowd which just HAPPENED to still be milling around well after midnight that they had a TAPE! B.F.D. and SHAME.





And WHO can forget the city-wide temper tantrum/riot they threw when it didn't go their way?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Please read Joan Didion's MIAMI.
She harnesses your points without the hyper-emotional theater you are using in your post.

I prefer her style in agreeing with the points. Your post up there is essentially an assault.

My agreeing with many of its points is eclipsed by the hysterical tone of your writing.

A civil tongue would go a long way.

Again, I refer you to Joan Didion. She nails it and she nails it good.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. I would recommend a book by former N.Y. Times reporter,Ann Louise Bardach
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 01:57 PM by Judi Lynn
CUBA Confidential
Love and Vengeance
In Miami and Havana

She and another Times reporter were widely read in their joint interview of Cuban "exile" bomber/terrorist, Luis Posada Carriles.

Here's what she had to say about the Elián event:
The Cast of Characters in a Family Melodrama
The Los Angeles Times | Sunday, January 30, 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By ANN LOUISE BARDACH

MIAMI--Wednesday, the two grandmothers of Elian Gonzalez, the 6-year-old Cuban shipwreck survivor, finally got to visit their grandson. The 90-minute meeting took place only after the Immigration and Naturalization Service ordered the boy's Miami relatives to comply in making Elian available--under threat of losing their temporary custody.

But strict conditions were imposed on the visit at the insistence of the relatives, who remained waiting in the next room. The boy was not even allowed to be alone with his grandmothers. The visit was conducted under the watchful eye of Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, whose home in Miami was used for the visit, and two other nuns. Wearing a large gold cross on his plaid shirt, Elian arrived for the meeting in a blue Lexus of the public-relations consultant retained by his Miami relatives and was greeted by anti-Castro pickets outside the house. One sign read, "3 Kings, 3 Children--Moses, Jesus & Elian," reflecting the quasi-religious frenzy that seems to surround the boy's every move in Miami.

The myth-making about Elian began within hours of his rescue on Thanksgiving Day. It was said that the "miracle child" had been saved by dolphins, who circled him and kept away sharks--though the fishermen who found him said they had not seen any dolphins. Some began to speak of him as their Moses. "The daughter of the Pharaoh took in Moses and this changed the history of the Hebrews," wrote Miami columnist Jose Marmol. "Moses lived to lead his people out of slavery in Egypt to the promised land of Israel, an exodus that lasted 40 years--about the same as our exile from Cuba."

In fact, so precious is Elian, say his Miami relations, that the worst thing that could befall him would be to return to his extended family in Cuba. In addition to his father, Elian has a baby half-brother, a stepmother, four grandparents and a great-grandmother there. It is an argument that baffles 70% of Americans who, in polls, have consistently supported his reunion with his family. But the Miami relatives argue that to live in Fidel Castro's Cuba is a form of child abuse.
(snip/...)
http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~border/list_articles/0130_latimes_cuba.html
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #52
90. With due respect, no one on earth has Miami nailed like --
-- Joan Didion.

Nobody.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. Don't read a lot of fiction anymore, but I looked up her name and "Miami"
This sounds interesting:
It is where Fidel Castro raised money to overthrow Batista and where two generations of Castro's enemies have raised armies to overthrow him, so far without success. It is where the bitter opera of Cuban exile intersects with the cynicism of U.S. foreign policy. It is a city whose skyrocketing murder rate is fueled by the cocaine trade, racial discontent, and an undeclared war on the island ninety miles to the south.

As Didion follows Miami's drift into a Third World capital, she also locates its position in the secret history of the Cold War, from the Bay of Pigs to the Reagan doctrine and from the Kennedy assassination to the Watergate break-in. Miami is not just a portrait of a city, but a masterly study of immigration and exile, passion, hypocrisy, and political violence.
(snip/)http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0679781803
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. Didion's MIAMI is not fiction. It's non-fiction.
You might want to give it a try. She is an absolutely master of diction and her research is clarifying.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. Thanks for steering me right. I have never read her work. n/t
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
74. Do you know any Cuban refugees?
They may have a particular point of view that I don't agree with. But they are good people in about the same percentage as any other group. Calling them criminals and characterizing them as throwing temper tantrums is rather bigoted.
They look at the world from a different perspective. It is not helpful to characterize any group of people as villians.... Cubans, Republicans, Christians... Jews, Haitians, Muslims....
Not helpful at all.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. That won't work.
Perhaps you have some newspaper stories which indicate the things indicated by my sources DID NOT happen. Otherwise, I'd tend to believe what I read, and what was covered on tv.

I also read that one of Elián's other great uncles, who did NOT approve of seperating the child from his father was taken to the hospital with a mild heart attack when he was harrassed by a group as he tried to walk into his bank.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
148. What I don't understand is how the presence or absence
of dolphins has anything whatsoever to do with a pretty clear cut custody issue.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #148
173. You see, if there are dolphins it means God wants it to come out
a certain way. And since there is no longer a separation of church and state...
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #173
176. Oh, I see.
Yes, that does make some kind of sense.:)

Actually, I remember thinking at the time that maybe they should set up a special governmental department for determining the will of God in cases like this where there has obviously been some sort of miraculous intervention.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #173
187. Yep, that's the easiest answer.
That requires no thought or investigation.

God did it!!

No need for any inquiry! Technology - not needed!! No investigations wanted here - God did it!!
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
12. I can't believe it's been 5 years
It really was a no-brainier though. He should be with his father. Just because we don't "like" Cuba, doesn't mean that his father terminated his rights as the father.

I'm sorry his mother died trying to bring him here, but in the end Elian was returned to his immediate family.
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. He Could Have Been Forced...
I mean, many of the people who fought for him to stay here would never believe anything other than that he was compelled (by Castro) to make that statement.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I wonder if they also
believe that that smile of joy on Elian's face when he saw his father was also coerced by Castro.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. At least he lives an otherwise normal life
which his wacko relatives in Miami would have never let him have here.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
93. I wanted him to go home
And still don't believe that he has any real idea of what he's saying. He's too young. I also think it highly unlikely Castro would let him suffer any economic distress, so he may never fully appreciate the struggles some other Cubans face. We have the same thing here, when somebody is singled out and treated particularly well, then stands up and praises capitalism, freedom & the USA.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
46. An interesting viewpoint on the Elian Gonzales matter --
-- is here:

http://www.hope.edu/pr/releases/showpr.cgi?page=0304/cuban.02Sep2003


It's an informative background by an estalbished scholar.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
47. Democratic DU'ers might appreciate this site:ELIAN'S STORY FOR DUMMIES.
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/elian.html
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. I ask in all seriousness, Judi Lynn: Are you really that --
-- opposed to Cuban-Americans that you would hold them up to scorn and ridicule as you've done here, or is it just the Miami community of Cuban-Americans?

Surely you would acknowledge their point that Fidel Castro's treatment of dissidents is inhumane? And Amnesty International's claims of torture and prisonier abuse?

They vehemently oppose Castro and have a few good points.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Would you provide Amnesty Internatiotal quotes of torture of dissidents?
Need some specific remarks.

Have you read what Amnesty International has to say about Bush's prisoners? Are we going to pretend they don't exist?

Have you not been aware of the long-standing habit of Republican right-wing Congressmen to arrange to contribute large chunks of change, as in millions annually, to Cuban "dissidents?"

Were you not aware the "dissidents" had been carefully watched for years by Cuban agents who had infiltrated them, including the personal secretary of Marta Beatriz Roque who testified, providing dates, names, amounts of money going to Cuban "dissidents" from the U.S.?

This practise, were it conducted by American "dissidents" accepting money from foreign governments is strictly ILLEGAL and punishable by fines and prison RIGHT HERE. Apparently you don't know or would prefer we forgot about it.

I saw in an earlier post to someone you were attempting to steer the conversation away from Elián and to the Cuban U.S.-supported "dissidents." You can check google quickly to see an interesting Jesse-Helms-Joe Lieberman creation from a couple of years ago which conspired to send MILLIONS - as in ten or twenty - to them. Big, big bucks. That would go a long way in the Cuban economy.

DU'ers who try to see the reality have done reading on their own, as they must if they're going to get past all the baloney prepared by the U.S. propaganda spinners, like Otto Reich.

Oh, another stupid trick right-wing Cuban "exile" posters do: accuse Democratic posters of being prejuidiced against right-wing Cuban-American extremists. They attempt to portray this awareness and disgust at their violence and historical record as being anti-Cuban, or, when they get fired-up, COMMIE LOVING!

I've seen it all before, believe me. It's never pretty.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Judi Lynn, I think it might be time
to put our friend here on ignore. He's doing everything he can to turn this into a flame war and get this thread locked. Can't have people reading the truth about Elian now can we?
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Sage advice n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. The thread did take a strange turn, didn't it?


Big puzzle!


I've been reading the article with your post #54.

Excellent illustration of what you were saying about Elián in that photo! I've never seen that one before, although I've seen ones taken from farther away when he was taken to the hospital.

He really does NOT look like someone who was out there for a couple or more days. A couple of full days in one's own backyard could burn you to a crisp.....
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Lets see what the same anti-Cuba folks say about this thread below
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1417233

Get ready for the sound of crickets chirping.

Don
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #59
75. Here's what they'll say..
Castro did it! (Or Clinton's pecker, for that matter.)


Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that
this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that




www.stopbolton.org
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #58
83. I love you Judi lynne
some great posts.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Jeez, thanks, so much. It's just amazing when you start seeing behind
the lies for the first time, isn't it? Holy moly.

The turning point for me was when I read that the drunken Miami great uncle, Lázaro Gonzalez, had actually gone to Elián Gonzalez's house on VACATION, and had stayed there, sleeping in the Juan, the father's own bed, while Juan slept out in his car, to accomodate him.

(He spent his days fishing, and went to the hotel bars at night to drink. What a guest!)

I was SHOCKED because I had always simply accepted what I heard as the truth without question. I thought: "Wait, a minute. If it's so hard for them in Cuba, why do they go back? If they have to ESCAPE, aren't they afraid they'll get thrown in the slammer?"

Once I passed through those questions I KNEW I couldn't go back. Once you start doing research you become astonished at how we've been taken.

So cool to not be duped anymore, right?

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #55
73. Sometimes you can get tag-team posting, too!
When one wears out his welcome, another steps in.

They used to do that all the time at the old CNN Cuba/US Relations message board. Quite predictable.

Many posters believed they were being paid by the C.A.N.F. because they all kept saying the same things. They also refused to read the information people posted to answer them, and repeated either the same charges, or variations of the same things. You start feeling you're sensing an echo effect.
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. Wow
Maybe people just don't agree with you. Did you ever think of that?
You don't even bother to curb your prejudice, you lable all Cubans with the same quick shot lable gun.

Having known many Cubans in my life, some who were dear friends (and some even liberal BTW) I have a problem with your black and white, simplistic retelling of the situation in Miami regarding this case.

But no, you figure it all out... we OC and I are tag team CANF employees even though I have never seen his name on the board before this thread. :rofl:
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
92. My points were benign.
Your group of so-many appear unable to consider other views.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #92
104. oh, calm down
join me in chasing some dick. might make you feel better.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #104
108. They were the words you used to characterize a woman.
I didn't introduce them to the discussion, Cat Woman. I love your energy but you have no leave to call any other woman a dick chaser. None at all.

I'm calm to the point of sadness because I have enjoyed your posts before and was very surprised to see you slam this woman, this late mother of a then-6-year old kid, in such a manner.

You've got too much on the ball to do that.

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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #108
188. I call them like I see them
if you're offended, that's not my problem.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #92
192. Your posts are seldom
...benign.
Your malignancy sometimes leaves my chest constricted.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #53
101. I am sad to be able to provide you with this report from --
-- Amnesty International, from 1998. Note that it is but one year's report; there are many more, including each year's annual report. You could have found this almost effortlessly on your own, but chose instead to doubt that organization's noble efforts to relieve detention of political prisonerss punished for their political beliefs, including by torture and death.

The AI report for 1998 is here:

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aireport/ar98/amr25.htm

and you can follow its leads and links to a hundred-fold more incidents. Castro is not all bad. He is not all good either, and the Amnesty reports hold considerable weight at the United Nations.

You might focus on the points being discussed, just for the sake of clarity and emphasis.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #51
95. You're spitting in the wind, friend
No common ground whatsoever with some of these folks. Cuba is a paradise, end of story.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. Hi, sandnsea. How could I have missed that obvious point?
I will simply have to change my mind on every single foreign policy issue there is, including especially, Cuba.

Mothers don't count. How could I have imagined differently?

Kids don't need mothers, so grief over mothers' loss is fiction.

Mothers generally who immigrate or try to immigrate are "dick chasers." Questioning this paradigm on sexist grounds prompts further scorn.

Wait -- the mother was not only a "dick chaser," but simply wanted to shop at WalMart. Thus she risked her life and lost it to come to Florida.

etc.

I've rarely seen such closed minds on DU. This is really something.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. Please post a DU link where Cuba is claimed to be a "paradise"?
You frequently show up on the Cuba threads and make that claim but have yet to back it up.


Please post a DU link where Cuba is claimed to be a "paradise"?



www.stopbolton.org
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. Oh puhleeze
95% election turnout. World class free education and health care. Complete freedom of speech. I can't remember all the statistics you've thrown at me. What could Cuba possibly be missing to not qualify as a paradise???
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. In many ways
it's no worse than leaving in Little Havana and Little Havana has a lot more crime and drugs.

BTW: I lived on the Miami River in Little Havana and worked at Jackson Memorial, so I know what it's like better then most people around here.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #110
114. And that has to do with what?
:shrug:
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. That is where Elian's relatives lived
so I assume that if they had gotten custody of him, that is where they were planning to raise him. Unless of course, they got rich off of selling him and his story?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #117
121. Sorry, not tracking
I don't have a problem with Elian living in Cuba. Maybe you missed that post way up above. For the most part, kids should live with their parents unless it was a country that was selling kids into slavery or something.

I have a problem with people who defend Cuba to the point of absurdity. Just like I'd have a problem with a right wing nut that would defend America and "streets paved of gold", to the point of absurdity.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #121
159. I see. No link to the "Cuba is paradise" claim - again.
Once again, you lob the same ol' accusations at fellow DUers and have no link to back it up.


:banghead:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #159
166. Accusations???
Nobody has defended Cuba's 95% electoral turnout? Their free speech? Health care and education? YOU haven't? Are you seriously sitting there telling me, YOU haven't said any of that??? Seriously??? Implying I'm lying that those comments have been made?? And that ANY argument about freedom, democracy, living standards, speech, dissidence, isn't shot down immediately??? YOU??? You're denying this???

Mika, come on, you're going to end up looking a little silly to anybody who knows you.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #166
175. I implied no such thing
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 08:49 PM by Mika
Nobody has defended Cuba's 95% electoral turnout? Their free speech? Health care and education? YOU haven't? Are you seriously sitting there telling me, YOU haven't said any of that??? Seriously??? Implying I'm lying that those comments have been made?? And that ANY argument about freedom, democracy, living standards, speech, dissidence, isn't shot down immediately??? YOU??? You're denying this???


You are all over the map, and attacking me and distorting in an unreasonable way, sandnsea.

I asked you to back up your repeated statement that there are DUers who claim that Cuba is a paradise.

You haven't. You can't.


You have come on these threads and repeat this over and over.


I think that it might be you who believes that Cuba is a paradise, after all, you are the one who seems to be saying that a country that has what Cuba has (freedom, democracy, living standards, speech, dissidence) is a paradise.

I have never said that, but the closest I've seen here is from you right here,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1416561&mesg_id=1417546
"95% election turnout. World class free education and health care. Complete freedom of speech. I can't remember all the statistics you've thrown at me. What could Cuba possibly be missing to not qualify as a paradise???" - sandnsea
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #175
178. That's NOT a paradise???
Or the closest thing we've got on this planet?

"freedom, democracy, living standards, speech, dissidence"

What's not a paradise about that? :shrug:
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #178
180. I see, it is you who believes that Cuba is a paradise.
Not me. I've been there.


Cuba is a great place. Paradise? No.



Now, maybe you can put that old cunard to rest (y'know, the one about certain DUers, other than you, who state that Cuba is a paradise that you keep bringing up).


:banghead:
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #121
162. So where exactly was Cuba defended "to the point of absurdity" in this
thread or by anyone in this thread?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #162
163. Mika knows better
And anybody who has paid remote attention to Cuba threads knows better too. Must be a praise Cuba thread at least once a week.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #163
165. Sorry - I don't know what you're talking about. Can you back up your
claim or not?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #165
169. I'm not playing
This is wild. Cuba apologists who won't let a negative utterance about Cuba pass, now claim they're not Cuba apologists.

People who attacked Cuban Liberal because he was happy his grandmother finally got to come here from Cuba.

Now want to play victms? :crazy:

No, not going to play.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #169
170. So you'll make accusations but not back them up? Some game.
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 08:26 PM by mondo joe
And you're definitely playing.

Too bad the rules of your game are so unfair.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #170
174. What is your malfunction?
Please show me where one of these people have said anything bad about Cuba.

Did Mika deny anything I said???

The 95% election turnout is proof of democracy? There's complete free speech in Cuba? Dissidents can come and go? The people have world class free education and health care? They don't suffer? Elian couldn't possibly have been coerced? He couldn't possibly just not know any better?

Is that what you think? If it's what you think, isn't that as close to paradise as anything you've heard of on this planet?

What's the problem with saying so?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #174
177. So if they don't say something BAD about Cuba they think it's a PARADISE?
This is the first DU thread I've ever participated in that had anything to do with Cuba.

What I've seen is you saying others think Cuba is a paradise, but a refusal to back up the allegation.

I haven't seen anyone else suggest Cuba is a paradise.

So if that's a malfunction, that would be mine.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #177
179. First Cuba thread
Experience a few, then get back to me.

Notice you didn't answer any of my questions on what you think about Cuba either.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #179
189. So not being in enough Cuba threads is MY fault for you not backing up
accusations?

Funny.

As to what I think of Cuba, the answer is: not a lot. I think it's a lot better place for most residents than a few other options, like Haiti, and a lot worse place than, say, Canada.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #177
181. Typical red baiting
mondo joe, you'll see a familiar pattern of red baiting and tainting DUers as "Castro lovers" on the Cuba threads, then you'll see links provided by posters who have been to Cuba and/or have spent a great deal of time researching and debunking US gov/neocon propaganda. No one has said that Cuba is a paradise here on DU (except sandnsea, who accuses other of doing so).

Please, stop by the "Cuba threads" as they turn up and you'll see.


:hi:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #181
183. rotfl
Now I'm a red baiter??? I've yet to hear you say anything bad about Cuba. At least, nothing bad that a change in US policy won't fix. I've given you ample opportunity to rebut specifics in this thread, but you don't. Can't figure out what's not paradise from what you've said so far.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #183
184. Found that link yet? (The one where DUers claim that Cuba is a paradise.)
That is, other than you?


I didn't think so.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #184
185. Have you denied anything I said?
No, didn't think so. Cuba is still the great democracy with 95% voter turnout, freedom of speech, freedom to travel...
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Boo Boo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
134. Blast from the past
:popcorn:
http://www.collegehumor.com/media/movies/elian.swf
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #134
190. Thanks I needed that
n/t
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
142. Here is the text of the case in the 11th circuit:
http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/11th/0011424opn.html

Of interest:

<8> The INS concedes that Plaintiff is eligible to apply for asylum pursuant to Section 1158.


It appears that the legal basis was there all along for the relatives of this young man to fight for his staying in the United States.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
146. Break time. There are some excellent views expressed here.
Really great food for thought.



And, there were others, as well.....
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #146
150. Take my offer from an above post, Judi Lynn. You may ---
-- stand to gain.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #150
198. It is over and done with.
Common decency and rationality was the winner in this case.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
196. That is good news!
Don't get me started on the Elian Gonzalez drama. The way those idiot republicans behaved was ridiculous! You'll remember some republican majority committee wanted an investigation started but dropped it like a hot potato when they saw that most Americans thought it was asinine. They tried and tried to turn the American people against Janet Reno and Bill Clinton for this episode but they failed. Yeah sure, some say that is the reason Gore lost Florida because of the cuban-americans voting Bush but we all know that Gore actually did win Florida. Bush stole it from him with the help of the USSC.

Atty. General Janet Reno became a hero, that early morning for me. and I can't forget the federal agents with the INS! It was a superb planned out rescue. I remember it well....It was the eve of Good Friday and I stayed up late that night discussing the Elian drama on a message board, I finally retired for the night but had my tv on, it was tuned to CNN international. And just when I laid down in bed to watch tv and fall asleep, CNN came on with their breaking news blip and I quickly hit record on my vcr (it just so happens I had a blank tape in). It was about to happen. I didn't know what was going on and neither did the anchor woman. But they just cut to the scene in Miami where the little boy was staying. You could see the white vans lined up and all these federal agents scattered all over the place. The crowd there looking stupified and all. The female agent runs out with little Elian in a blanket. You see the fisherman run out of the house yelling and screaming. I quickly logged back on to cnn message boards to inform them what was happening, and there were a couple of posters that already did. So I was watching tv and posting as it was happening. I had such a great time that early morning that I couldn't sleep. We discussed the rescue for hours (until I finally crashed LOL!) I still have that tape somewhere. Now I will have to go find it and watch it and reminisce!
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #196
201. That's right! People were expecting the government to move
because they had gone well past the deadline to hand the kid over. They were standing in defiance of the U.S. Government. Right!

The drunken great uncle got off what he thought was a witty remark by saying, "I'm not taking him to Opa-Loca, or any other Loca." :silly: They were challenging the gummint to do something about it.

Thanks for the "Good Friday" reference. That slammed it all back into view at once. Yeah, I remember I was staying up watching it, too. Had forgotten about that. That WAS fun. :woohoo:
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #201
202. Looks like our GOP operatives
have Sunday's off?

That was ridiculous yesterday.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #202
206. Damned determined guys. Stubborn. Can't be slowed down with facts.
Undoubtedly we can look for them bright & early Monday!



Undoubtedly you noted that when you provide material which voids their arguments they simply ignore those posts! It's an old, old pattern. They simply ignore the evidence. I have NEVER seen one back away or admit he/she was even slightly misled, or confused, dead wrong, or LYING. Now THAT is rigid, inflexible, and not LIBERAL.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
203. These words might have been written
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 04:48 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
by a Christian, but they were, I am told, written by Ghandi:

"The things that will destroy us are :
Politics without principle,
Pleasure without conscience,
Wealth without work,
Knowledge without character,
Business without Morality,
Science without humanity,
Worship without sacrifice".

I wonder who the apologists for the Cuban mafia and their "class" consider score the highest points in relation to the above: their sybaritic friends run out of Cuba (or for that matter, the incumbent US government and its friends)? Or Castro and his government?

I think the best comment I heard at the time of the Elian abduction was in the form of a question: How could they think that a young child of Elian's age needs free-market capitalism more than he needs his father and the rest of his family?










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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #203
207. Thank you. Perfect observation. Took your Gandhi thoughts to google
and found a sermon at Unitarian Universitist in Vermont which focused upon them, mentioning Gandhi was an inspiration to Martin Luther King, Jr.

http://www.barleywinegraphics.com/hartlanduu/sermons/gandhi.htm

You may be amused to know that a couple of Miami Cuban "exile" terrorists, Ramon Saul Sanchez, and Jose Basulto have both claimed they have started trying to emulate Gandhi's teachings in their lives. Hmmmmm.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #207
208. What a nice post
in response, Judi Lynn.

Intriguing and heartening, also, to read about the Miami Cuban gentlemen. We know how much we can be influenced by our own culture, don't we? Whether for better or worse. Now it's for the better, and all credit to them.

I don't think any of us like to apply a broad brush to a group of people, even if they seem barely quasi regular Joes. I love the Cubans period, I suppose. So I'm pleased when nutters turn good guys.

And I don't want to trivialise the business, but I'm sure they must regret any loss of like they or their compadres caused, and pray for their families. It's such a mixed-up world we live in, and full-blooded people sometimes make bigger mistakes.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #208
209. I didn't really mean I like Cubans, period,
Judi. I should have said "generally", of course. I don't like evil so-and-sos, watever their nationality. (Though I may sometimes have to try and love them in a Christian way, If you get me).
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