AFGHANISTAN: Woman executed for adultery

It is stories like this that make me despair for our future on this planet.

And here Laura Bush said things were getting better. :eyes:

change--if if if if .......

I can not even imagine the parents saying it is ok to stone their daughter.

She was all over the airwaves talking about the plight of Afghanistan women to help justify the war husband Jay was so gung-ho for.

we won in Afghanistan.:eyes:

OBL is still on the loose and this country has not changed. But we brought them democracy, huh?!? And then we invaded Iraq for the oil we can't even secure? Meanwhile 'The Great Horse Masturbator' (Bush: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3592890 ) pushes on as if he won and there's nothing wrong. :puke:

On edit for spelling.

accoding to chimpy.

along with forced marriage when they are still children, the often-fatal mutilation of "female circumcision" and many other unspeakable things. And even a "good" woman who becomes a widow young is marginalized and in many areas is functionally a pariah who has no way to earn a living and no hope for a second marriage because she is "damaged goods."

Recommended.

This stuff goes back countless generations. It's a tribal thing, reinforced by religion.

But don't give up on these people because some of their customs don't make sense to us! They have many talents people here couldn't begin to emulate - knowledge about animals, about living off the most marginal land. Their woven and embroidered art can be breathtaking - all done without patterns, passed from mother to daughter through countless generations. And Afghanistan has suffered so much the past few decades - since the Soviet war - whole tribes have been decimated, their precious flocks and treasured horses slaughtered by Soviet gunships. Many have fled across the border, selling everything they had - heirlooms of generations - just to make it to safety in a refugee camp. Many are in Pakistan, some in Iran; a few went to Turkey.

It breaks my heart. And the madrassas don't help - often they teach nothing BUT Koran, so there's no opportunity for people to learn about art or science, or about the outside world.

And, Afghanistan is a country where some 56 different languages are spoken. One tribe's customs may not be at all those of another.

The fact that the parents endorsed it exemplifies the crux of the problem - how can you change something that parents think they're doing for the good of their children? The same thing is true of FMG - the women think it gives their daughters a better chance of making a good marriage, meeting an acceptable esthetic standard, and also makes them "good girls".

I do think the Taliban made things MUCH worse in Afghanistan. They have made many strides there on behalf of women since we went there. I read something the other day, that some families will be allowing women to avoid forced marriages - whereas the Taliban wouldn't let women do ANYTHING, even work, wear makeup, even seek medical attention. So getting them out of power was a good thing we did, but things won't change overnight - especially since reverting to the most fundamentalist ways is sometimes seen as a badge of honor against Western culture.

That bothers me, since I do not see freedom for women as an evil thing, but as desireable - natch. Yet this very idea is regarded among some groups as personifying evil and threatening the very foundation of society.

Controlling women isn't the whole thing either - it's that MALE honor, even the honor of the tribe, resides in the behavior/control of the women. It's a very different world, impossible for us to really judge.

But I think it SUCKS. And it makes me very glad to be living HERE. We really are so very fortunate.

This is evil done in the name of religion. It is unspeakably cruel and wrong.

Maybe I misunderstood what you were referring to as "impossible to judge"?

the human rights violations against women APPALLING.

In fact, I would like to see more attention paid to this issue on DU. It's a terrible problem and it exists in MOST of the world - huge portions of Africa, Asia, even Europe and we're starting to see examples in the US - FMG, so forth. Although I must mention, idiots actually tried "female circumcision" here to try and "calm women down" back in the bad old days, and also slave owners did it too, on occasion.

But, to write off all these people in Afghanistan or the Middle East - as some were implying - that they weren't worth fighting for - because we don't approve of some of their customs, I find extremely short-sighted and judgemental.

They deserve a chance, we deserve the opportunity to get to know them. "White people" - westerners - have done some absolutely horrible things too, you know.

We've probably stacked more bodies higher than any other culture in history. Hell, one of our bombs killed 88,000 people OUTRIGHT. And what about the fire-bombing of Dresden? Or the Holocaust? And it was only 140 years ago that we outlawed slavery in our own country.

wrap it up in any cultural context you'd like, it's still horrifying and wrong. Period.

clarification.

I'm not a "cultural relativist" by any point. But I do react badly to implications that the people of Afghanistan - etc. etc. and so forth - are worthless or our efforts to help them are worthless - because some of their customs suck. And I do not think it is a bad idea to have some knowledge of their culture and their history under one's belt, do you?

What I can't agree with is that somehow their culture or customs in any way excuse such behavior. My any sane cultural standard, this is not acceptable.

And I'm betting at least 51% of the population would do far better were it treated like the crime it is. I wouldn't implicate all the people of the country, nor would I jumpt to the conclusion that this is practiced universally in the country. But I sure as hell would like to see the limited government there do something about this. And, for that matter, a few loud voices from the government of our country denouncing it.

very upset.

There was an honor killing in Jerusalem the other day too - two sisters, dead - a third, the ambulance rescued. She'd drunk acid, trying to commit suicide. Who knows what those poor girls did? Probably nothing much. The brother was on the run, last I heard. He is apparently responsible. The parents have been arrested, since it happened IN THEIR HOUSE.

Women don't realize it - but they - WE - do have the power to change this. The hand that rocks the cradle!

But, in certain cultures and in certain religious schemes - they don't KNOW that - they're so buffaloed into thinking they're inferior, they're property, and that the whole honor of the tribe depends upon THEM - what about the MEN?

In Iraq, apparently there are two conflicting movements going on: the women who want equality and political power - and right next to them - the black veil contingent - who want to impose sharia law.

In American politics, you could say, here were have the feminists, who want to stand on their own two feet; and there, we have the religious conservatives - or not even the religious - who want to be taken care of by men, who do NOT want to deal with change and with economic challenge.

I think there are similarities, in that sense, between our two cultures. Women who are willing to accept economic responsibility and political power, creative power and responsibility outside the home, are running smack into women who DON'T want those things, and who indeed, fear them.

I agree with you too - we could use some very loud voices from here, about this stuff. I wonder, if those voices are muted by the conservative, anti-feminists among us? Or if they're just being "diplomatic"?

Another problem - the religious right over here, is being judgemental about women around the world, and withholding money for women's issues, because they don't approve of countries who allow abortion.

AAAARRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHH.

and I think it's probably both here: "diplomatic" and conservative, anti-feminism.

I remember years back, at the start of the first Gulf war, my local paper ran an op-ed (the editor's opinion) about our female soldiers in Saudi Arabia and that the Saudi's insistence on our women following their nasty traditions was just a sort of polite bowing to "cultural differences". I wrote a pretty darned good response, and heard from a lot of people about it -- many of whom surprised me with their positive responses... Anyway, that stuck in my craw then, and it still does. I don't give a hoot for your "cultural differences" if they cause harm to people -- particularly women or children. And I'd sure like to see my country stand in the forefront of those demanding true equality for women. But as you say, we've got enough to clean up on that front in our own yard... how long will it take, I wonder?

They were trying to bring the country into the 20th century but Reagan preferred the Taliban and their ilk (including Ossama Bin Laden). Ironic, isn't it?

You are sooo on-target. If the Russians had prevailed they would have erradicated the fundamentalist whackos.

Wow.

This is the first time I have thought of it that way.

Whoever controls Afghanistan has control over ALL the routes that the Caspian Sea gas and oil can traverse.
that's why bushco was negotiating with the Taliban until they failed in July 2001...in a Texas meeting.

country.

I suppose you could look at it, well, there wouldn't have been any fundamentalists - but there also weren't any SHEEP, or any horses, or any TURKMEN -

sheese.

Talk about radical surgery.

The Taliban CAME because of the Soviets. The Soviets so weakened the infrastructure - social, political, economic - that the Taliban were able to get into power. Also, that war fueled the fundamentalist flames in that part of the world.

Also, playing the Great Game, we armed the mujeheddin - like Bin Ladin.

Oh, the price of oil.

...to expel the Soviets. The Taliban did not COME because of the Soviets as you suggest. The Taliban CAME because of support from the USA.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550419.stm

Mullah Mohammed Omar was a reclusive figure even before his militant Taleban government fell from power and he was forced to flee into hiding.
It was Mullah Omar's backing for Osama Bin Laden which led to the US-led campaign to oust the Taleban.

Mullah Omar and Bin Laden go back to their time as resistance fighters against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan of 1979 to 1989.

Mullah Omar vigorously defended his friend against allegations that he masterminded the devastating attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, accusing the US of trying to cover up their own intelligence failures.

Bin Laden is believed to have at least partially financed the Taleban takeover of Afghanistan, from which Mullah Omar emerged as "commander of the faithful", a title with great resonance in Islamic history.

as long as it wasn't the Soviets. That would have been an extremely strategic location for either side. Fucking cold war :grr:

is fine.

It's beautiful the way Bush spreads democracy and freedom to these far lands.

A year ago I tried to tell a conservative friend that women in Afghanistan where afraid to leave their homes. He demanded docs, so I pointed him to a front page SF Chronicle spread. He just couldn't deal with the cognitive dissonance.

I haven't heard much about RAWA lately. And fear for the women of both Afghanistan and Iraq.

I made whatsherface from RAWA - the young lady that adressed Congress and the UN, one of the brave women that used to sneak the cameras into Talib-held Afghanistan film how it really was - cry. Not one of my prouder moments.

we can blather all we want from the West that we think it is barbaric and send all the money we want...BUT until the women and the men in those countries realize that it is repulsive they won't stop doing it.

How do some of the men in Afghanistan grow up to be misogynistic pigs? Because their mothers and their fathers and their community teach them that women are worthless, only breeding and caretaking entities.

You can change the laws and you can advocate outlawing the practice but until the people in the villages realize that raising women to equal status with men will benefit them economically as well as advancing their culture...this will continue.

It saddens me to say this but it is true.

Funny thing about culture, it sometimes makes you do things "just because". I recall having my baby daughter's ears pierced and one of the nurses in the doctor's office just kept beating my ear about how barbaric it was..."she's only a baby"....but it is a custom that my people brought with them from Europe...and I wanted it done....granted it is a minor issue in comparison to the women in Afghanistan but when that nurse was berating me...I felt like she was slamming my cultural background and I got really pissed and defensive.

I only hope that Afghanistan experiences a peaceful period where they can reflect upon their more barbaric cultural issues and they stop them.

adultery.

how sad

I find it totally repugnant that public stonings and executions still take place anywhere on this planet.

of her ankle, and therefore he couldn't help himself. It was definitely her fault.

Halleluyah! God's will has been done. "Freedom is on the march!"

Gyre

As a human being and a woman I'm enraged.

I am very upset by the tone of some of these letters.

First, they totally disregard the fact that a great deal of progress is being made in Afghanistan, since the Taliban has been driven away.

Secondly, a culture that has been in place, with its good and its bad aspects, for THOUSANDS OF YEARS - isn't going to change in 2 or 3 years.

Thirdly, we are living in a very comfortable, post-tech world. We do NOT have the equipment, unless we are extremely empathic, to see into the hearts of those people. On the other hand, we should respect the fact that they are NOT one-dimensional woman beaters.

They know things we couldn't even dream of. Some of the men in that part of the world hunt with golden eagles. The women can take down an entire house - a yurt - in a day, pack it on a couple of camels and put it back up, miles away. They live in a drought-stricken world from the work of their hands and from the animals that they nurture from birth. They use the wool from those animals to create their homes and works of art of great beauty - rugs, hangings, bags, and articles of clothing. And they've been doing this, for the past 30, 40 years, while dodging flights of missiles, Soviet helicopters, crazy-ass fundamentalists, bunker-buster bombs, and the US military.

You're DAMN RIGHT they deserve our help.

This is NOT a lost cause. But it takes more than a couple of years to change a wartorn land that is older than most Americans can even imagine.

Afghanistan was old in Alexander's day. And THAT was hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus.

I ask, not that we lose our anger on behalf of the women who are being hurt all around the world - but a little compassion for the people of that world - and a healthy dose of humility.

We CAN help; we must help. And, shouldn't we realize that we aren't perfect EITHER?

I just don't.

I guess am bigoted....against murderers.

fullness of their humanity, and in the context of their world.

And, I would like to see more of your kind of anger about the treatment of women globally, especially in Africa and big chunks of Asia.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Who said, hate the sin but love the sinner?

These people honestly think they are preserving the integrity of their tribe by stomping out behavior that threatens their social structure. And no - that doesn't mean I personally think it is right. I think it SUCKS.

Their provincial government doesn't think it is right either - a BIG CHANGE from the Taliban, who believed 100% in this stuff. I'm just trying to put some context here, and to make a point that Americans can, and must, lend a hand when we have the ability to do so. We have already made a difference in Afghanistan - let's not chicken out now because progress is slow.

and Afghanistan is full of poppy fields now. We have hardly improved things there.

http://www.afgha.com/?af=article&sid=48634&newlang=english

where the hell did you get the impression that the taliban left?

stop such practices?

thousands of years. We need patience!

Mission (not exactly) Accomplished:)

:wtf: I read everyone of your posts and I disagree. Many parts of their culture and values are admirable. But the justifiable disgust and rage on this thread is righteous. Their is nothing to justify throwing stones at a woman buried in sand until she dies two hours later. The man gets 40 lashes. That's wrong, period.

Patience won't change this but rage and help to Afghanis trying to change this will.

I hope so!

And if they run out of stones, we have the Rocky Mountains in reserve!

nt

Freedom and Democracy are once again on the march. :sarcasm:

Barbarians. This is beyond EVIL and even more evil are the backwards, religious idjits responsible for this. :grr:

Hey Pickles, hows that again about things getting better in Trashcanistan? :shrug:

The news release makes it clear that the government had nothing to do with her killing and in fact has charged one of the killers with murder.

This is just a small town lynching that happens to be in another country.

(sarcasm)

I do think we should be in Afganistan-I thought the war in Iraq, along with being wrong in general, diverted our resources from helping the country that really needed our intervention.

fuck her.

that the countries we "liberate" (Afghanistan and Kuwait) are some of the most reactionary, and remain so even after being "democratized" (women were recently prevented from voting in Kuwait -- AGAIN). Yet the countries we destroy -- like Iraq -- had very progressive attitudes towards women until we went in. Now the fundamentalists are taking power over there as well. We seem to do more harm than good.