How safe are U.S. military vehicles in Iraq? (Some lawmakers outraged)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7752483/

Military officials said Thursday substantial progress has been made in armoring United States military vehicles in Iraq — but given the increasing number and sophistication of those enemy roadside bombs, that is clearly not good enough.

It's a staggering new statistic. The Pentagon announced Thursday that 70 percent of American soldiers and Marines killed in Iraq today are victims of improvised explosive devices (IEDs).

At a House Armed Services committee hearing Thursday angry lawmakers were demanding to know why the Pentagon has not done more to protect U.S. forces in Iraq.

"And I come to this hearing with a sense of outrage,” said Rep. Curt Weldon, R-Pa. “I can’t tell you the number of homes I've sat in with soldier's families whose come home in body bags."

<snip>

Of the nearly 2,700 Marine Corps Humvees in Iraq, fewer than 500 — that’s less than 18 percent — are fully armored, while the Marines have suffered some of the highest casualty rates, in some of the most intensive combat of the war.

Do you think > $300,000,000,000.00 is enough to buy some damned armor for some damned jeeps to protect some damned troops ? ...

GEEEEZ .... WTF do you think: we are made outta money ? ...

After ALL the fancy fetes and billions of dollars in bogus contracts to our friends at Halliburton and Bechtel : there is nothing left for the troops ....

I tell you what : If YOU want armor for our young boys and girls who serve our nation faithfully and honorably: then :

BUY IT YOURSELF ! ....

..... oh .... You did ? ...

Well ... never mind then .....

....................

.............. now: What is up with that wandering bride thingy: is SHE weird or what ? ... Let's talk about her for, say, the next 3 months .....

<extreme sarcasm, dripping with angst-ridden irony>

Then Curt, why the Fuck did you vote to send them there in the first Place?

Oh I forgot, a lot of DINOs like Limpman voted to send them there ALSO

DAMNED US government WHO PUT THEM THERE has allowed..These service people have been made to appear as 'sitting ducks' and probably as decoy for that lame brain lame duck f*** in the oval office..

They are built to be lightweight, fast, and maneuverable.

DONT armor them ? ..

Stryker has proven to be a flop, why do you think that they're still using both armored and unarmoed Humvees for patrols.

The Stryker is a bitch to keep maintained because of the extras that they've had to put on it to make it RPG resistant, the tires have to be checked every day, mainly because they tend to go flat with all the added weight, and they are not very good in off road travel.

So, the troops are better off in an unarmored hummer, that can at least get them out of the AO, instead of an overweight vehicle that has a habit of being top heavy.

I haven't heard much about the Stryker lately. I'll have to go read up on it.

All this whining about armour misses the point....if all the troops moving around IraqNam have to be in tanks, the war is lost and we need to admit it and confront the reality of defeat.

originally was that they were never intended for general issue. Those Humvees were originally designed for light infantry divisions to be scout and TOW missile carriers. They possibly in that role get in harms way so they had a little more protection. The standard Humvee was designed to run around bases and safe areas. They made up the vast majority of Humvee built. Now the army has slipped up by not producing more, why is still up to debate. Still if you get hit by an RPG or a big enough bomb the armor is not going to save you. Now if we want to provide our troops quickly with far more safer vehicles than Humvees. Then we are going to have to go to South Africa and buy some vehicles. The South Africans for years were the only ones that designed vehicles to ameliorate and protect the crew and passengers from the effects of land mines. I am not sure they are still in production but they may have some surplus around to buy.

were supposed to be throwing at our soldiers.

380 TONS of Flowers in Iraq...

which had nothing but a canvas top to stop a bullet and no sides at all.

Everyone who kept aware of the war since the beginning (usually we anti-war people who are the real supporters of the troops) KNEW of this problem back in 2003. We were attempting to tell anyone who would listen of this problem TWO years ago. Just NOW congress is becoming aware of it??? NOW????
Article after article was available to these idiots, dating from 2003. WE knew, yet congress claims they didn't? :mad: :mad:

http://www.combatreform.com/hmmwv.htm
http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/print.php?story_id_key=5467

38 republicans voted NAY. Only 18 voted YEA.

ALL DEMS but 1 voted YEA.

To appropriate an additional $213,000,000 for Other Procurement, Army, for the procurement of Up-Armored High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles

NAY: 38 out of 56 REPUBLICANS.

Allard (R-CO)
Bennett (R-UT)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burr (R-NC)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Frist (R-TN)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Inouye (D-HI)
Isakson (R-GA)
Kyl (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Roberts (R-KS)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Thomas (R-WY)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)

ALL DEMS except 1 voted YEA.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00108

or about weapons in general. I think the safest, and the only decent thing to do is to get our people out of Iraq immediately. I realized that our brain dead, miserable excuse for a president doesn't know the difference between being showered with roses or stung by the hornets whose nest he stirred up, but that's the only thing that will stop some of the bloodshed.

Just in the time it has taken to read and respond to this thread, I can well imagine that Iraqi mothers have given birth to another generation who will consider the U.S. their sworn enemy. If we leave now, there is a chance that by the time they are grown, their country will have had a chance to heal.

getting some bradley's out of storage?

I know they are tracked, but they are MADE for this type of environment. Nothing short of a tank round or hellfire type missle will stop them.

:sarcasm: We've already paid for them. :sarcasm:

From what I understand there are M113's in storage in Kuwait. They've been there since the first Gulf War, they've been maintained,
they're armored better then a hummer, and they can take an RPG hit.

The M113 is already battle tested, granted it's an older vehicle but it still works.

Are there two models of them, one tracked and one with tires?

Soldiers will place them around the floor of the vehicle to absorb some of the blast. Which works better than you might think...(just no where near as good as armoring the under carriage would...which really isn't done at all..HMMWV's are built for speed and I think they're in need of a redesign ..stating the obvious, I know)


Soldiers tend to stamp the bags down (nervous feet) or they move them away for comfort while riding...which causes them to be less effective for absorption.

Sand bags saved a friend of mine. He was still injured but he was sitting on several sand bags and the bags took most of the IED blast. The driver died...hard to get sand bags on the floor of the driver's seat. My friend was sitting next to the driver. The others sitting behind were also on sand bags and they were also injured but not killed.

I'm not saying sand bags solve anything, though they do help and soldiers do use them ...I rather see armor..I'm just telling everyone what the military expects the soldiers to use while they're waiting on armor that may never come.

The Hummer was never designed to be a armored personal carrier. If you want an APC which by the way the troops need there are 750 M113's in the gulf region that can be rehabed for less then a thrid of what new stryker cost. The M113 is an old design, it dates back to the early 1960's, but it has two greatthings going for it. One it does the job well and two it is paid for.

The only difference between M113 and HMMWV is that when the first hits a mine - the guys inside look as good as alive - not like the minced meat when the latter hits the mine.

Th armor of the M113 is a lot more survivable then a Hummer.

ricochette around the interior of the APC. I doubt it would withstand
a 105mm IED, or even a 75mm IED.

Is the application of ceramic armor upgrades to the outside of the track. This helps greatly.