NEW CBS NEWS POLL: No Democratic Front-Runner (Clark Ahead But Within MOE)

WHO DO YOU WANT TO WIN DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION?
(Democratic primary voters)
Clark 12%
Gephardt 10%
Lieberman 9%
Dean 9%
Kerry 8%
Moseley-Braun 4%
Sharpton 3%
Graham 3%
Edwards 2%
Kucinich 1%

WHO HAS BEST CHANCE OF BEATING BUSH?
(Democratic primary voters)
Clark 15%
Gephardt 14%
Lieberman 11%
Dean 8%
Kerry 8%
Graham 4%
Edwards 3%
Sharpton 2%
Moseley-Braun 1%
Kucinich 0%

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/02/opinion/polls/main576342.shtml

DTH

.

n/t

No flames from me, except this one:

:grouphug:

Just goes to prove. God don't like ugly.

maybe you should re-examine your ideology and ask yourself at which news forum you belong?

My proof is that Tucker Carlson was real nice about Dean today on Crossfire...said he should be the primary candidate.......but said it in a very sweet way....almost sincere.

I heard Rush admitting to coming on the internet to see what goes on with the dems....I wouldn't be surprised if many of them do. I believe that is how they get insight as to the pulse of the party at any given time.

What they've been reading so far tells them some Dems, especially those supporting Dean (who had to fight hard to get to the top) are suspicious of Clark's real intent (the guy who came out of nowhere and is doing remarkably well in most polls), based on the "republican till 25 days ago" routine. So now they are reinforcing suspicions by making nice to Dean. Since Dean supporters do not believe for one minute that Repugs want Dean to actually win, they believe that Repugs are using reversed Psychology....which makes Dean supporters believe that Repugs are actually afraid of Dean....and goating him on......which makes Dean supporters even more loyal and ardent to Dean.

At the same token, Right wing radio hosts are talking about Clark as though he just plain crazy....a real loony. They are not so much highlighting the party alliance issue...as that would be problematic for right wingers to think that Clark was a closet Republican...might make them want to vote for him if things get really bad with Dimsun....so on the talk shows.....Clark is portrayed as just a closet loony who believes in Time Travel. They also attempt to diminish his credentials by saying he's no Ike...He's Hillary's puppet....and He's Clinton's general.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/oct0301.html#100203302pm

So the right wingers are working both sides of the aisles....but manipulating Dean supporters into staying suspicious of Clark...to attempt stopping Clark prior to the Primaries....and discounting Clark as a loony on their side of the aisle in case plan A doesn't work and Clark makes it to the General election.

Although it's not a complicated strategy......their Dem assessments on the vibes from the internet (wouldn't be surprised if they came here often enough) gives them the idea that this may just work.

I strongly believe that we should stop bashing each other's candidate, and instead allow each of them to perform at the next debate. That debate will give us plenty of ammunition to discuss the issues and policy matters. From that point, we can run with the policy debates...which is what the elections should really be about any way.

Based on each individual's view of their conclusion on the policy debates, each should then vote for the candidate who he/she believes to be the best man for the job.....and hopes that man wins....and may that man beat Bush during the general!

:thumbsup:

DTH

I agree adults can refrain from making personal attacks on one another, even though we may have disagreements.

But, let's not call sharing information "bashing".

From usnews.com .. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/031006/usnews/6campaign.htm ..
Roger Simon on the campaign trail >> _Getting to know the General_
excerpt:
... "But in New York last week, at a big Democratic fundraiser following his first debate, Clark said he would prefer a different job. "I didn't go willingly from the armed services," Clark said, referring to his being booted out as NATO commander in 1999. "If I had my druthers, I'd still be in uniform." ...

This article does not portray the General in a negative way. I believe that Clark means what he says. That's why I'm committed to a candidate who knows that ONLY the American people can change this country.

This is expressed beautifully in _Acts of Hope Challenging Empire on the World Stage_ ..
http://www.oriononline.org/pages/oo/sidebars/Patriotism/index_Solnit.html ..
excerpt >
... "We achieved a global movement without leaders. There were many brilliant spokespeople, theorists and organizers, but when your fate rests on your leader, you are only as strong, as incorruptible, and as creative as he -- or, occasionally, she -- is. What could be more democratic than millions of people who, via the grapevine, the Internet, and various groups from churches to unions to direct-action affinity groups, can organize themselves? Of course leaderless actions and movements have been organized for the past couple of decades, but never on such a grand scale. The African writer Laurens Van Der Post once said that no great new leaders were emerging because it was time for us to cease to be followers. Perhaps we have." ...

This is an exciting movement to be a part of. I hope you'll visit http://www.deanforamerica.com/ sometime.

and I suspect neither do you.

I wonder if the poll referred to Clark as General as opposed to just Wesley? The word General does affect the poll numbers.

DTH

3rd in NH. I bet Dean would like to trade places with Clark right now. <zorry snap>

about NH and Iowa? Really. It's the beginning but not the end. Winning NH guarrantees nothing, nada, zip, zilch. Just ask Clinton or Bush for that matter.

BTW NH is months away. Don't get too cocky just yet.

MzPip
:dem:

and then you bash.

and you wonder why people on this forum compare post by clarkies and about clark to Repugs and freepers?

I no longer wonder...

There is still a ways to go...the next debate should be interesting....then maybe we'll all discuss the real issues and policy difference on DU instead of personal attacks.

FAVORABLE VIEWS OF THE DEMOCRATS
(All Registered Voters)

John Kerry 13%
Senator John Kerry 21%

Dennis Kucinich 7%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich 3%

All of the others, Wesley Clark vs. General Wesley Clark, Howard Dean vs. Dr. Howard Dean, Joe Lieberman vs. Senator Joe Lieberman, were about equal with or without the title.

But what's with Kerry and Kucinich? Why do people react more favorable to "Senator John Kerry" and less favorably to "Congressman Dennis Kucinich"?

Polls are weird.

John Kerry is a pretty bland name, so some people might not realize who that person is. But when you identify him as a Senator, something clicks, and they remember it's that John Kerry who's a war hero.

Actually, I have no clue. :-)

DTH

More people have a negative opinion of him than a positive. 70% aren't familiar with him, but he's been campaigning for two years now. Revolutionary campaign my ass. This guy is a bomb waiting to go off, and the explosion won't be pretty. His best chance in a general election against Bush would be for Bush to lose, not for Dean to win. There are better candidates out there.

Dean's been under heavy fire from nearly all the candidates. Clark has had to undergo very few attacks. I don't think that Clark has the ability to withstand political attacks, especially the way that Dean has.

And they still have *nothing* on Dean.

Clark has been the focus of hatred for weeks now from the right wing hate machine. He hasn't blinked. I have to wonder what planet you've been living on the last few weeks.

But I admire your good spirits.

Howard Dean is all.
Howard Dean is downward tall.

Who's been the focus of attacks again?

Gov. Bush takes verbal swipe at candidate Dean in Tampa event
http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031002/APN/310020719

They shouldn't be worried knowing that they're in the lead!!!

Such a farce!!!

singing Dean's praises. Why do you think that is? Clue. They really DO want him to win the nomination. So they can win in a landslide election.

Bush team considers Dean formidable Republicans admit they underestimated Dem candidate

By Judy Keen
USA TODAY

WASHINGTON -- Republican Party officials and political advisers to President Bush admit that they underestimated Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean and say they now consider him a formidable potential adversary.

Some Bush allies say he reminds them of another insurgent candidate who once bedeviled Bush: Arizona Sen. John McCain. His wins in Republican primary elections in New Hampshire and Michigan rattled Bush's 2000 campaign.

''There is something going on there, and I tell you, if we don't pay attention . . . we're making a big mistake,'' says Tom Rath, a Republican strategist and Bush adviser in New Hampshire.
…
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030908/5477666s.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=103020

No, that's the mem they're pushing and that you're falling for, Kahuna.

WHO HAS BEST CHANCE OF BEATING BUSH?

Howard Dean 8%

Dean still on top of money race

WASHINGTON, Oct. 1 — In the surreal mind-set of the campaign expectations game, psychology can get twisted at the end of every quarter. Democratic front-runner Howard Dean’s campaign publicly set $15 million as its goal for fund raising for the third quarter, which ended at midnight Tuesday. According to Dean’s Web site he raised $14.8 million, with last-minute contributions still being counted.

DEAN HAD dramatically exceeded fund-raising expectations in the second quarter by collecting $7.6 million. Is his $14.7 million a wee bit of a deflating result for the third quarter? Only if you live on the plane of surreal expectations.

EXTRAORDINARY MONEY MACHINE

Dean’s extraordinary money machine is still far more efficient than anything Missouri Rep. Dick Gephardt, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, or the other Democratic contenders have working for them.

Dean is on course to have enough money to air television ads and hire operatives in states where fund-raising laggards may not be able to during the hustle-bustle of primaries that will take place in February and the first week of March.
…
“We do believe it is an important decision that we’re going to have to make, because in the end Bush is just raising this money.... They’re going to raise $200 million and spend it against the Democrats between April and August when we go to the convention.... If we make the decision, it would be to compete with Bush. We’ve already proven that we can compete with the other Democrats.”

Simon Rosenberg, who heads the centrist New Democrat Network, put the Dean bounty in perspective by noting that in a 10-candidate field the former Vermont governor was able to raise 50 percent more than Bill Clinton raised in the best quarter of his 1996 re-election effort. Rosenberg called Dean’s feat “almost miraculous” and added, “We have to recognize that the Dean campaign is the best-run campaign we’ve ever seen.”

Taking the party-wide view, Rosenberg pointed to what almost no one else has noticed: Based on the preliminary estimates for the third quarter, the 10-person Democratic field collectively will have outraised the Bush campaign, an indication of how fired up Democratic donors are.

“If Bush is this supposed fund-raising king, then this so-called ‘weak’ Democratic field — to use Karl Rove’s word — is outraising him,” Rosenberg said.
…
http://www.msnbc.com/news/974339.asp
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=52916

with 17% negatives, 12% positive, and 70% unfamiliarity. He'd better start spending his money, and praying to whatever God he believes in that some of the lies he likes to tell finally stick.
:shrug:

Clark's negatives would be much higher than Dean's are with Kerry, Liberman and Gephardt ganging up on him.

Clark has yet to endure anything near what Dean has. And, I don't think he could.

Clark's name recognition is equal to Dean's. All the polls I've seen have their unfamiliars very close. Dean polls where he does because people don't like him and his whole angry man persona, which he only trots out, by the way, for the faithful.

I wonder how much positive name recognition $15 million can buy, or if he'll instead use the money to do what Dean does best: slime the other candidates, since he himself has so little to offer.

But, Clark has you and Liberman, Kerry and Gephardt to slime candidates for him by insinuating things that they've never done.

So far, he's chosen to slime via interviews, but when that medium becomes too small, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see some attack ads from the good doctor. Sliming is what he does. Besides, he's angry. Very angry. And attacking his primary opponents provides him with katharsis.

Dean has never run an AD attacking other Dems, but he most certainly HAS attacked other Dems, repeatedly. And if you think that's not true, then you really have drunk way too deeply of the Koolaid.

Dean crabs about Gephardt allegedly "comparing him to Gingrich", when it is really Bush who is the Republican Right Boogieman, and Dean has repeated the "Bush-lite" contention - which is MUCH more of a "comparison to" than what Gep did - about all of the other Dems, whether it fit or not.

His characterization of the Senate Dems voting "for Bush's tax cuts" was a lie, and anyone who understands the process knows it. But it doesn't keep Dean from repeating it.

Dean's refutal of Gep's contention is getting a LOT of play. But not because he has actually refuted it. Every article I've read, except of course here at DU, follows up the Dean quote of "That is false" with, "It is true." Even his latest "I was in favor of what Clinton signed."

His allegation that Clark was a "Republican until 25 days ago." is getting very bad play as well. In things like this, it is important to be precise in your language. Yes, Clark did vote for a few R presidents, and he attended an R fund raiser. But that does not make him a Republican, and his registration is Independent. The other candidates seem to be questioning Clark's commitment to the Democratic Party, but they don't do it by lying outright like Dean has on the issue.

I will admit that Dean has a marvelous fundraising scheme going, and that it took a risk that the other candidates weren't willing to take - by putting out the goal and the march toward the goal back in late June. He has also done something else that was unusual - he asked supporters to DO something - even little things - that makes them feel involved in the effort to oust Bush. Almost everyone who has been paying attention on the Dem side, and a number of Independents, are horrified at what is happening in this country, and they wish the election were tomorrow. They are impatient to recoup this country from the radical right and the neo-cons, and giving them something to do has been a wonderful spirit lifting and inspiring thing to do. Kudos to the Dean campaign for this.

However, Dean got where he is by taking risks. He has captured a great deal of support, initially from the anti-war (ok, anti-IRAQ-war) crowd and angry partisans. That base has expanded. Lately his surge has plateau'ed somewhat with the Clark entry, and the Dean camp now has do react to that surprise much the way the other candidates had to react to Dean.

It will be interesting to see where it goes from here. There are, IMO, 5 viable candidates at this point.

old Howie has .... peaked? Maybe a little too soon to nail the coffin shut but he seems to be trending down, not up.

When your media darling starts raking in the dough and supporters that Dean has...we'll talk. Until then your living in a dream.

you call this heavy fire??

I think Clark would pull the lion's share of supporters from the non-Dean candidates if they were to drop out. In the general election, I see Clark as someone that the Dems can enthusiastically vote for. I think Clark could even create a substantial number of "Clark Republicans."

People have seen through Bush at last. He can't hide for four years. The ivory tower, secret society BS has run its course. No one is fooled by it any more.

I certainly wouldn't say "no one". I think folks make a big mistake by thinking that 2004 is going to be an easy win. If they can, the Right Wing Machine will make National Security a HUGE issue in 2004, and if the Dems run ANYONE who hasn't got that nailed - we could be looking at another 4 years. THAT is why Gen. Clark is soaring in the polls right now. Because National Security in a Bush v. Clark race would be a non-issue.

EQUALS NOTHING!!!!!

Stop obsessing over these unecessary polls--at least until we have one candidate!


rocknation

I hope they are both on the ticket no matter whose first and whose second...I'm supporting Dean in the primary, because I am not a DLC fan, but Clark is a great guy also, if he wins the primary, I will support him 100% in the general...

dont bash our guys...I know, we are democrats, so we think instead of mindlessly voting for whoever the big honchos say to vote for...but, in this case, we MUST defeat W in 2004...remember that...

this ticket would likely be a slam-dunk, either Clark/Dean or Dean/Clark. Either of them may also be able to win it on their own (without the other), but the combination could be killer.

just like every other poll...

Just like the best seller list for Michael Moore, Al Franken
and Hillary Clinton...........

Dean's money raising says it all!!!

LOL!!!!!

How the Media has lost trust with the puplic!!!!

LOL!!!

Let's break that down:

42 said Clark
35 said Gephardt
32 said Lieberman
32 said Dean
28 said Kerry
184 said somebody else/undecided

Yeah, that's really telling, isn't it?