Transsexual parishioner denied (restroom) facilities

http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?S=3324243&nav=6uy5ZfnB


OKLAHOMA CITY - There is a plea from an Oklahoma church member who says she is thinking of suing the church she loves. She claims that church officials are refusing to let her use the same women's bathroom that all the other female church members use.

Mary Ann says a pastor told him there were complaints and he wanted Mary Ann to use another lady’s facilities clear on the other side of the huge church. Mary Ann says that is discrimination.

I paid a visit to the church for their side of the story, but the attorney for the church said they could not comment on the issue because Mary Ann has threatened a lawsuit. The next day Mary Ann received an e-mail telling her to stay off church property and that they would help transfer her to another church.

I asked civil rights attorney Michael Salem if the church was discriminating against someone who has had a sex change. Salem, who opposes any discrimination, says the church may have the right to do so. "The first amendment gives them the right, if they so choose, to select their membership. I’m not sure what public law could require them not to determine who they want to associate with or not."

And, guys, we have closed locked stalls, so, heck, guys and gals could go and no one would be observed. That's why I think we should just have family restrooms and forget it.

I don't need more women yelling at me to put the lid down.

They don't close the top lid. We have four cats, who frequently jump on the toilet lids. They don't like when the lid is open.

:rofl:

She likes to splash around in the water. You don't close the cover and you are going to get one wet behind.

Who says cats don't like water? Crazy cat.

One toilet seat to another: "I like men more than women because men
never put me down."

:P

A little girl was recently raped and severely beaten in a bathroom in a public library, while her grandma was reading to other grandkids. And you think it's a good idea to actually have men and women using the same restroom?
:eyes:

there would have been a man in there who would have helped that little girl.

Think about it...One restroom for both sexes would double the possibility of someone walking in to deter an assault or a robbery.

One restroom for both sexes would double or triple or whatever the possibility of a woman or a girl being attacked and raped. There was also that little girl killed and raped in a restroom's casino. In fact, the killer's friend likely knew what was going on but didn't do anything. So, why didn't he help the girl? I presume another woman being in there could have helped that girl. Why does it freaking have to be a man to help the child?
:eyes:

in france, it is very common for public restrooms to be for both genders. if that is the case, the stalls are usually reserved for one gender or another. i dont know the difference in rape statistics, however.

in restrooms. It simply ain't so. If a criminal wants to accost someone in a restroom, they'll do it regardless of whether it's a men's, women's, or family room.

I have 2 boys, and neither of them went to a public restroom unaccompanied. When I'm alone with my 6 year old, I take him in the ladies room with me, because I'll be damned if I'll compromise his safety for somebody who freaks out by the thought of someone with a penis being in the next stall.

I always advised a parent to go with them - even if it meant a mom taking a kid into the women's (a boy), or a dad taking a girl into the men's (you can always get people's cooperationw while you go into a stall, etc).

The point is that ... in all of the instances that I was involved in ... the danger lay in a kid going ALONE into a restroom that was empty ... except for the perpetrator.

Your logic appears to be based on the idea that if given an opportunity, any man will turn into a sex-crazed psychopath determined to violate the nearest female orifice. Besides being ludicrous, this is also extremely sexist and grossly insulting.

Following your logic, all men should be locked into cages or castrated, because they'll fuck the first thing that they see. If that kind of 'logic' were applied to women, you'd be screaming bloody murder, but apparently it's okay not to treat men as fully intelligent equal human beings, eh?

If a predator wants to set something up, he or she will, with accomplices if necessary. The key is to never let your kid go into a restroom alone.

This is a crowded church; it is unlikely that anyone would carry out an attack there, especially this woman.

As to public restrooms in general, family restrooms would make things more safe, not less, because of the amount of people being around to help if someone cried out for help.

One should never use a restroom in an isolated area without other people being right there to protect them.

Just my humble opinion.

Oh, and I was a social worker for several years who had extensive conversations with predators. They don't care how the restroom door is labeled.

a Mother and son or a Father and daughter, given our social stigma against entering a restroom of the opposite sex. All-inclusive restrooms would make it easier.

On the other hand, I can certainly understand that women like to have a safe haven from men (at least the 99.9% that respect the little dress-wearing stick-figure on the door). Besides, how would they do all that girl-talk if men kept walking in on them? ;)

No one is bothered by it.

In fact, it's probably wisest for adults to avoid going alone in certain circumstances.

a stick-man-with-a-dress sign on the door doesn't magically keep predators out. . .

really, the argument against 'family' bathrooms comes down to the wait... women go to the bathroom in herds making the line at the women's restroom out-the-door. I don't want to spread the wait.

as men go into. As for the transsexual woman, I guess you think she should not have a problem if the church told her to use men's restroom?

the ladies' room is always long at a crowded event. It's because men plan the buildings and they erroneously believe that it takes women no longer to urinate than it does men, so they don't allow for enough toilets in the ladies' room while the men's room has both urinals and toilets, adding up often to more than the toilets available to the women across or down the hall. WHY no one seems to realize the differences in anatomy and therefore the differences in needs is beyond my understanding.

Women may indeed chat with each other in the ladies' room, fix their makeup or hair, and "go to the bathroom in herds" to use your delicate phrase, but those are red herrings used by men to explain the long lines women must endure.

Even if a woman simply goes in and takes care of business it will take her longer to do so than it will a man. It's an anatomical difference that's often made worse by women's clothing -- women often have to wiggle out of pantyhose or girdles before using the toilet; no one-zip access for us. Women also menstruate and a certain percentage of women will be having to change tampons and/or sanitary pads while they're in the toilet stall, too.

Demand that women have enough toilets in the ladies' room if you believe in equality of the sexes. And try having some understanding of women's needs in restrooms and how they differ from yours.

That's very considerate of you.

Ultimately, I think it'd be best to design and supply adequate facilities for all. But that'll happen the same year a woman is elected president.

in Italy, I'd have no problem with uni-sex restrooms. But when there's a large gap at the bottom of the stall and the stall wall is low enough that someone can stand on the toilet in the next stall and peer over, I don't want men using the ladies' restroom.

He/she should be allowed to use the lady's room?

Did you read the article? Hell, did you read the headline? This is a woman trying to use the women's room. :eyes:

Sounds like it could well one of those intolerant ones. And if that's correct, I really have to ask Mary Ann, "Well, just what did you expect?" I'm not speaking rhetorically here.

God isn't allied with a particular denomination. She should go find another more understanding church.

if I were her.....

Nothing like loving a church that doesn't want you. Why do people love going where they are not welcome. A place that makes them feel like evil people just for being who they are. I don't get it.

didn't people have to do that to get off the back of the bus?

when they kicked me out I needed to be approved by my family's church family. It was wierd I couldn't and cant explain the emotion. All's I know is that I really resent the catholics that kicked me out for not taking pictures of woman entering clincs. I was so upset I lost my voice for three days. Funny thing is my family still attends that church and I just feel so angry that I cannot attend mass because I am a very vocal liberal. Christmas is a very angry tense time at my house.
Just remember changing a church is not like changning a suit or a house or one brand of christianity for another. It's entering on an entirely different spirtual path. For me it was and is still a traumatic thing to do. I litteraly thought that catholicism was the be all and end all of christanity..
Fortunately my friend larry took me to the Episcopal church it was very warm and welcome. It nice to know some people that dont care about ones orientation party affiliation or stance on reproductive issue. I love the Epsicopal church though in a wierd way I miss catholic mass. Anyone need a Latin tutor jk?

God isn't a catholic.
I'm in the process (mentally) of making the switch. I don't want my kids to have no place to worship, but I'm fed up with the hypocrisy and exclusivity the Catholic church preaches.
I'm looking at the United Church of Christ - they're the ones whose ad wasn't played because it was "too controversial" - they wanted to send the message that they welcome everyone - including gay people.
Good luck with your transition - and wish me luck as well!
Peace.

--hardly Christlike at all. If it's any consolation to you, or a potential solution--not all Catholic churches are so obsessed with abortion. Same goes for most of the mainline denominations of Christianity and all the political hotbuttons of the day.

The individual church's "personality" is often a function of either its leadership or its congregation. The Catholic church I grew up in for my early childhood was hardly political at all, and in fact, was one of the best at living the good parts of their faith - charity to the poor, care of each other, compassion for the sick, etc. But the church we transferred to when my parents moved out to the 'burbs was the same Catholic mass, but completely focused on money, money, money, and intolerant of anyone out of their idea of "norm," which was pretty narrow.

My parents ended up shopping around for yet another Catholic church. For me, even returning to the old church didn't make it stick :) but that was more of a theological decision rather than a political/social one.

taking pictures of women entering clinics"?

I realize parishes differ but the Roman Catholic Church does not require anyone to take pictures of women entering clinics and certainly would not excommunicate anyone for refusing to do so. It sounds like an activity of a pro-life group but no Church-related pro-life group that I know of does any such thing. (I would hope that no Catholic group does, but we have seen many times that some extremists can ruin the reputation of any group.)

I'm guessing some misguided people in your parish kicked you out of their little group, and I'm very sorry that happened to you. It obviously hurt you a lot. Shit happens in any church or other human organization. It's particularly sad and unnecessary when it happens within a church group but churchgoers are not perfect people. They should be working toward holiness but not all are working as hard, perhaps, as they might.

I hope you can find peace in the Episcopal Church OR find a Catholic parish that suits you better. Never expect that there will be no problems in any church, club, etc., though; you just set yourself up for disappointment if you do. People's human weaknesses are the problem.

Peace be with you! :hippie:

The pro life group at my church runs just about everything. Thank you for your support and no I dont blame all the catholics just the ones that did this.

Are these women who complained afraid Mary Ann will molest them?

This is just more meanness from the self-righteous.

How could that pastor ask her to use a different restroom instead of counselling the complaining women about their irrational fears?

What a prick!

Trust me there coming. It's just a matter of time.

whatever his name was "before", and they are not comfortable sharing a bathroom with someone who was a man/ boy most of his life, just as they wouldn't be comfortable sharing a bathroom with men in general.

Why can't Mary Ann give a little, understand their confusion and fears, and use the other ladies' room until the women are more comfortable with the idea of her being a woman?

If people were otherwise being accepting of Mary Ann, why make this a big issue?

And why can't those upity negroes just be glad we let them ride the bus at all and not complain about being in the back of the bus.

After all, pure, innocent white women are "uncomfortable" if they have to sit next to a negro.

Couldn't Rosa Parks just give a little?

her brand new pussy... I mean come on, she identifies as a woman, she is not a threat to other women.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.21272015

So how does it get such fucked up churches?

I wouldnt let that stop me :evilgrin:

Is this what is meant by Holy Shit?

He is an pre-op, pre-T FTM trannyboy. Let me give you a visual on that: my partner looks like a female in her mid 20s with short hair, a suit, and a tie. He was escorted out of the ladies room by security.

Security was very confused by the woman who was screaming "there's a man in here!" because they knew my partner was biologically female, but they escorted him out anyway.

This sounds like a situation of a stealth transwoman (a transwoman who never brings it up and always passes for a genetic female) being outed.

Ah, the joys of trans living. It will be fun for us what with the new REALID card.

Please tell your friend I am truly sorry he experienced that kind of humilation. Please give him a hug for me. When will the madness end?

For some reason, it's always the people that don't know any transgendered persons well (or don't realize that they do!) who are the most judgemental about it. I have a number of TG and intersexed friends; most use the restroom of the gender they appear to be outwardly. However, there are some, particularly the pre-op and pre-hormone folks, who still are somewhere in between appearance-wise, and there are still people that somehow think that makes them some kind of danger to others. Most of the TG folks I know wouldn't hurt a damn fly, and the vast majority are celibate while transitioning unless partnered; the whole sex thing is just too confusing during the process.

One of my dearest friends, an FTM, is still referred to as "it" by his girlfriend's parents. What in the holy hell are people who say that kind of pointlessly mean shit THINKING?

Who CARES whether the woman in the stall next to you used to have a penis, or perhaps still has one? All I care is that I be allowed to use the toilet in peace. I've never had a transgendered person trouble me in a restroom, but I sure as hell have had a lot of little kids crawling around under stalls and peering up dresses; you don't see me agitating to have children banned! This is just so damn illogical. WHAT, precisely, are people so afraid of? Why are people so squicked by TGs and intersexed persons? If you're not going to have sex with them, what earthly difference does it make to anyone else?

I see by your avatar that you are a UU -- no problems there, as I know from my sojourn with them. We chose to raise our kids as Unitarians and would do it again because of the deep sense of ethics, tolerance, and commitment to social justice. However, I'm a lover of ritual and always missed it in our local group -- but that's a story for another time.

DanCa expresses it pretty well when he says how much he misses being a Roman Catholic -- and a lot of Southern Baptist gays (for instance) feel a deep sense of loss at being rejected by their home church. If your family raised you up in a particular religious community it ends up permeating your very being, just as your family does. Every part of it says "home" -- even if that home is dysfunctional in some fashion.

Hekate

I have no problem with a transexual using the women's bathroom at any facility-the mall, the church, the office, etc. I had a ts friend at my church until she moved out west. She is a lot of fun to be around and is a very nice person. She's obviously a transexual-I suspect she was a fairly masculine-looking man before her surgery.

1) You should not be able to sue a church for things like this. Separation of Church and State protects them in this instance.

2) It only feeds into their alleged fears that they will be sued to be forced to recognize gay marriage. Maybe if we can make them realize that there is a wall between Church and State that protects them, then they will leave us alone about things like gay marriage.

3) I feel that while transgendered people deserve equal bathroom rights, there is still a compelling need to protect women from penises. A transgendered person without a penis should be allowed to use whatever restroom makes them more comfortable. I in no way mean to imply that a transgendered person is any more likely to commit rape. Because of the possibility of rape, women deserve to feel safe from being raped when they're alone in a restroom, and it is damn hard to rape a woman unless you have a penis. The women's room should be a penis-free zone.

On edit:

If she has no penis, then I feel the church is ethically and morally wrong, but the wall between church and state protects their decision.

However, out in the non-church rest of the world, as long as she has no penis, she should be allowed to use any restroom she wants.

You're saying that the state cannot enforce a law in this instance because a church is violating the law?

Would you likewise argue that the priests who molest children are immune from prosecution because they work for a church? Guess we can't enforce that law without violating the separation clause.

Should churches be allowed to dump raw sewage in rivers and streams? They must be protected by the separation clause.

Can the church suddenly decide it's African-American parishoners have to use the out-house over the hill?


This has NOTHING to do with gay marriage nor the creed of the church. The church never suggested that a transexual member violated their faith or creed. There is no Biblical rule about a transexual using separate toilet facilities. In fact, the parable of the Good Samaritan (among others) teaches Christians the opposite.

The church accepted Mary Ann, accepted her contributions and later decided to segregate her for the "comfort" of some complaining parishoners.

Enforcing the laws about discrimination and public accommodations is not an example of the state interjecting itself into the church's free exercise rights. The church has already accepted Mary Ann.

Understanding that, I also think it's ridiculous to sue. The only thing the suit has accomplished or will accomplish is to reveal the meanness, ignorance and hypocricy some so-called-Christians are guilty of.

church are going to rape them at this church? What the hell kind of church is this? It's between Sunday School and the preaching and Mrs. Brown has to go to the bathroom, but she is afraid that one of the male members (hehe) of her church will come into the bathroom and rape her? I'm sorry, but I don't think this has anything to do with a fear of rape. This is pure bigotry based on the "otherness" of this unoffensive transgendered person. That's how I see it, anyway....

the transsexual woman should just use the men's restroom?
Why would that be a problem?

not protection. Men can get into any restroom they want to if they want to. Women and men in our society simply feel embarrassed and uncomfortable using the same bathroom with persons of the opposite sex. This transgendered woman in question is a woman - so what is the problem? And are women who are members of this church really at risk of being raped at church by other members of that church? Are these people supposed to be Christians?

Oh, there are plenty of rules that prevent some individuals from doing exactly as they please, wherever and whenever they please to do it.

Clearly, there's a balance to be struck in these things, and I wouldn't automatically discount the importance of cultural norms and the senitments of the whole society. Remember that there are cultural rules whose support crosses all barriers of class, race, ethnicity, and region: people really do feel that their lives are made pleasanter, safer, and more wholesome by such norms.

The women of this church understandably don't want a man in their bathroom. Apparently, they have known this person to be a man, and they do not view him as a woman.

I'll bet anything that most people in our society find will their objection reasonable -- just as some of us on this board also do.

at one time were used to enforce restrooms for varying skin colors. That still doesn't make bigotry right.

... the support for the sort of cultural rules that bar men from women's bathrooms -- or that force people to wear clothes in public, etc -- is overwhelming, and crosses boundaries of race and social class. The point of these laws is to prevent individuals from doing things that deprive others of a certain measure of the privacy they might reasonably expect (as in this case), or from doing things that disturb the peace.

The intent and effect of the Jim Crow laws was to make pariahs of an entire ethnic group.

These things are not remotely comparable. People who want to support this man's right to use the women's bathroom really should stop trying to appropriate the black experience in lieu of making an argument.

You and others incorrectly calling her a man does not help. And yes, this is discrimination (and this is coming from a black guy).

Historically, women are probably 99% more likely to be raped by someone who has a penis.

Yes, I pulled that number out of my hat, but I think you get the idea.

did you read the article?

If she has no penis, then she should pee anywhere she chooses.

I still think the Church is protected by the first amendment to discriminate on religious grounds.

I think it sucks. I don't like it. It pisses me off. But I think it's their right.

Now, if only they would leave everyone else alone OUTSIDE their church, I'd feel much better about it.

But this is what they're scared of- us telling them how to run their church.

I think we have to let go of that if we're going to convince them that their church shouldn't tell US what to do.

As always, I'm open to suggestions and/or revising my ideas.

I quite agree, this is bigotry and fear of the unknown.

:rofl:

I want protection from sociopaths.

I know that you are not implying that anyone is more likely to commit rape; however, perpetrators of violence (abuse) come in two sexes ... male AND female.

The key is that they have no capacity to empathize with others, and are habituated to violence, and to engaging in violence.

By the way, the individual who physically abused my daughter (and that's as far as I'd like to discuss it) ... was a .. WOMAN (before she was placed with .. and adopted by ... us).

Would He turn her away? Somehow, I think NOT....

There's yet ANOTHER House of The Lord where The Lord doesn't live. I really do not know what is happening to the so-called Christian community...

:cry:

vagina and all

this is a sex discrimination issue as I read it

The problem in this country is they see people as a "lifestyle" or a label, and not a PERSON. If they considered those different than them as HUMAN BEINGS, things would be a lot different.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.21272015

because of ignorant people.

Then I would give a verbal tongue lashing to those ignorant fucks who allowed their ignorance and fear to get the better of them...those cowardly mean spirited pieces of shit would know exactly what I thought of them.

the cripples and other unwanteds.

(note, landover is a satire site)

as long as it's not done for purely political reasons. ala waynesville- i would think that a church has a right to accept or reject as it pleases.

Choice didn't even enter the equation for that person... Should they not be allowed to use restroom facilities on church property either?

Maybe they should both go someplace around the church (near a bush outside, etc.) to protest.

is nothing illegal here. This exact thing is what gets church people all in a frenzy about gay marriage and stuff. They think they'd be forced to have it in their church--and they aren't. They can tell people to leave for being black or white or green or gay or man or woman or anything they want.

them for bigotry and discrimination.

with their sphincters so wound up? Anybody with children should have had that supposed "shame" of sharing bathroom facilities long since buried.