Taser victim dies: Stun gun was used 3 times on suspect

And PROSECUTE those who abuse them.

Taser use should be like the discharge of any police weapon, subject to an internal affairs inquiry about the circumstances. The mountain of paperwork plus the extensive interviews will discourage a lot of the cavalier overuse we have now, overuse that can be classified as torture in many cases.

People who are wigged out on meth, alcohol, crack, or PCP may require more than one discharge to be subdued, though. Unfortunately, all those drugs have cardiac effects that may be exacerbated by repeated shocks. They are a less lethal alternative to guns, but they are not 100% non lethal.

Personally, I'd prefer a police force that uses non lethal means to subdue people. I'd much rather have a mechanism in place to discourage the overuse that we've seen in so many cases lately, lethal overuse or not.

edited to add: tasers are less lethal, not nonlethal.

100% lethal, guaranteed, and cops are trained not to miss.

... officers to use a taser where they would previously have used a gun?

tasers are not considered to be in the same category as a firearm. A cop would be suicidal to use a taser in a situation where the use of a firearm is called for.

The purpose of a taser is to end the situation before lethal force is called for. For example, if an officer is confronted with a person weilding a knife, they can stay out of the effective range of the knife and subdue the individual without resorting to shooting the individual, which is what the response would be if the officer is within the effective range of the knife.

the problem is what other options are there?

Tasers combine the best of both worlds. They are generally safe and don't result in deaths, even if the people they are used on are "messed up" to begin with. And they can be operated outside of the range of many weapons that the individual might have and that lethal force would be appropriate if the range the officers had to confront the individual in were shorter.

Now compare this with the other options in the LEO's toolbox. There's chemical sprays, which basically just induce pain, and have a fairly short range. This can cause some people to comply, but if they are drunk or high, it's useless or worse than useless since the pain response is blunted by the intoxicants.

Then there's striking implements. These vary from what are basically plastic nightsticks up to metal batons, and include things like your average nightstick (which tend to be either wood, polymer, or metal), a PR-24, an Asp baton, or for the really old folks, Ye Olde MagLight (they didn't make them out of aircraft grade aluminum and with 6 "D" cells because that much juice was needed for the flashlight...they make excellent and highly deadly clubs, too, which is why so many agencies have stopped issuing them). These are range-limited by the arm of the officer and the length of the implement.

Then you get into "special" or "less lethal" options. These are called this because they generally don't result in death, but can, and are generally not "general issue" but are rather carried by supervisors. These include beanbag guns, tasers, "rubber bullets", et cetera. All of these can cause death, but rarely do. Of all of these, tasers are by far the most useful, since they are small, easily carried, and easily used. They also tend to work on just about anybody, regardless of what intoxicants the person is on, since they do not depend on pain to incapacitate, but rather upon disrupting voluntary muscle control. They don't depend on blunt force trauma, which is what beanbag guns and rubber bullets do (we've all heard of people being killed with rubber bullets, and there have been cases where beanbag guns fired into the sternum at close range caused people to die without even penetrating their clothing), so it's far less lethal than they are.

... to a hospital bed an beatin the crap outta him with a plastic nightstick cuz he won't give a urine sample (for example), or blastin him with a beanbag gun or rubber bullets, or fillin his eyes with pepper spray for the same reason, your advice is -- Whoa! We outta take a deep breath, and then reach for that friendly taser!

but when you have a guy with mental health problems who has torqued himself up with PCP while weilding, say, a cavalry sabre or a machete or just a Big Honkin Kitchen Knife, it would be better FOR HIM to tase him rather than to shoot him.

I've never heard of a jurisdiction that allows beating somebody with a nightstick for failing to give a urine sample....

.. fella without gettin in trouble, ain'tcha? Well, then, zap him with yer taser, cuz ya ain't gonna get called on that."

with a billy club. But wait, that can kill people as well. Might need to ban those too.

I agree with the previous poster that there needs to be the same restrictions and rules on Tasers as on Guns. Each use needs to have an internal investigation performed on it with FULL justification that it was necessary and their life was in danger.

These DEADLY TASERS are not the same stun-guns Law Enforcement used to use. These Tasers are DEADLY and have been proven to be misused and abused continuously. The officers use no discretion or caution when delivering jolts to a "suspect", resulting in frequent deaths or severe injury. Perhaps LE should return to the use of the less harmful stun-guns.
I stand by my statement to "OUTLAW DEADLY TASERS and PROSECUTE those who abuse them".

go back to stun guns or something similar.

Both generally use the same voltage, the same amperage, and the same number of shocks per second. There's some variation because stun guns are manufactured by many different companies, but "police grade" stun guns like the XR-5000 (not the $29.95 knockoffs) are the model that tasers were created from. The only real difference is that the tasers propel contacts for up to 25 feet, and that tasers deliver shocks over a set amount of time (5 seconds), while a stun gun is more controllable as far as length of shock administered (from a fraction of a second to until the battery dies).

deaths from these things the last year or so. "They" keep saying they're safe, but the stories seem to be saying otherwise.

when, for example, batons were used?

Tasers have taken the place of a wide variety of weapons that were available to police officers. Here, local departments no longer carry things like the "skullcrusher" maglights and PR-24s, since the split between them have been taken over by Asps and tasers. Remember the whole "chokehold" death bit from years gone by? That's a relative rarity, since instead of clubbing and strangling people the cops taser them instead.

I haven't seen impartial research on this recently (and air-tasers only went "on-line" in '93...), but then again I've been out of the daily application of force business now for years. But it wouldn't surprise me if, as taser involved deaths have risen (and I don't think anybody would say that we've hit 500 such deaths yet), that other forms of officer-involved deaths that don't involve guns have decreased. If it saves 500 people from dying through the application of force by law enforcement officers at a cost of 100 people dying in part from being tasered, isn't using tasers a wise policy decision?

The Taser is a valuable tool. There are some cowboys out there that get attention from their poor choices when using the Taser ...But lets not forget, the criminal is always up to something that evokes the use of force.....there always is more to the story.

I'd March on Washinton to keep Tasers in the field. I do encourage use guidelines as well.

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...please disregard any rudeness, many posters here are friendly...

As was the case at that one football game where they were incorrectly used as crowd control devices?

What about when they are used on the mentally ill who are not really criminals at all, just people who are ill and not necessarily able to get the care and medication they need?

How about when they're used on children?

Since tasers have been used like this, I'm curious how you feel about them in these situations.

... on how police departments are portraying the Taser, and I say this as a police officer. How many times have we seen a picture in the newspaper or a "feature" on the evening news, showing a cop getting hit with a Taser during training? Great dramatic stuff, PR for the department. "Look at us, we have a new toy"... but this thing is NOT a toy, it is a WEAPON. We have specific policies that restrict its use because like every other use of force before it (baton, choke hold, even Mace), it involves risk of injury or death. We contradict that message by zapping officers, who then brush themselves off and tell the camera that it wasn't so bad. The public is then outraged because this "benign" device is implicated in the deaths of suspects.

...used to train students with stun-guns, jolting each other then firing their weapon to see if stun-guns affect aim. The students were always able to hit their target, the stun-guns felt like a bee-sting.
I am unaware of any similar training with these DEADLY TASERS, and I highly doubt that the students use the same amount of jolts on fellow students as they do on suspects.

if you compare it to a bee sting.

I practiced martial arts for a few years, we played with stun-guns like they were toys. They did not affect our co-ordination, speed, agility, balance, nor precision after being stunned.
I've never been stunned by these DEADLY TASERS.

that when you "played" with stun guns, you didn't use them as they are required to be used in order to be effective. It's one thing to be shocked for a fraction of a second on an extremety with a stun gun....it's quite another to be hit with a 5 (or 15) second burst on the side of the neck or upper torso. A stun gun, when applied correctly, requires, on average, a four second shock to incapacitate an individual. That's why Tasers automatically deliver a five second shock.

I've actually used stun guns (tasers, too) in "real-life" situations to subdue individuals. There's no way in hell that a person hit with a stun gun as required to produce incapacitation (ie in a location that is susceptible to them and for a sufficient duration) doesn't suffer from decreased coordination, et cetera...in my experience, it takes at least five minutes for coordination to return. During that time period, they can move, but not effectively. That's why they're useful...it gives the officer time to restrain the individual without their being able to effectively resist. And once you have them cuffed, they are no longer capable of effective resistance even after the effects have worn off.

It was always for at least a few seconds.

That is bizarre.

With Martial Arts Instructor Julius Chang, (I believe, and will have to check files for accuracy).

Thats a good way to get somebody shot accidentally.
I call Horse Shit, on that one.

we used to routinely have officers be shocked with both stun guns and tasers as a part of training. This still continues. Also, part of the training was that everybody got hit with the chemical weapon of choice of the day, so that they could both understand the capabilities of the gas and be able to not be incapacitated the first time they got hit with it "for real". We never, EVER tried to simulate firing a weapon immediately after being hit with these, even with just using red guns.

Have student attempt to fire a weapon? No way.

Safety for the innocent bystander is the priority. The family called for the police to help them., thus were threatened.

I cherish the Taser myself. I'm glad that the officers have this resource tool to contain and defuse explosive situations. I'm sure this is not a popular opinion but it has been my experience...thus I will share my opinion. I hope others try to look at the event in it's entirety.

at least no one can say that tasers are harmless anymore.... it's just a damn shame someone had to die to demonstrate that.

103 between June 2001 and March 2005, 13 of them in the first 3 months of this year.

i hadn't heard of anyone else dying from it. these guys gotta get rid of those things! you may as well be shooting them!

... that told the story of an officer who was crippled when shot with a Taser during training? The author "forgot" to add that the officer suffered from osteoporosis, which was the likely cause of the bone fracture that occurred. As a member of AI, I asked them to explain this and never got a response. I don't take what they say at face value from now on.

I'm sure they probably missed some and their total was low.

that someone died from a Taser, or is suing over the use of one.
That SHOULD tell us something.

as a use of force tool. The Taser has been highly effective in defusing explosive situations that may not involve a gun but another form of attack. When an officer used a gun, they shoot to kill, the Taser provides an excellent option to not use his 9mm weapon, with a highly predictable fatal outcome, but to contain, control an assailant as safe as possible. People/innocent victims have died when a situation has not been contained..... The Taser alone does not kill them ....concider that many are "high as a kite" and have a history of substance abuse to their own body....

The Taser contray to popular belief also is a stun gun...however that requires up close and personal contact with the suspect. In most of the cases where a death has occurred usually some use of narcotic substances are involved. What is also strange is in most of the cases a family member called the police because the indivdual was out of control. What does that tell you.

They USED TO be trained to disable, not kill. They are specially trained to not use excessive force.
But for the past several years, police have shot unarmed men in the back, they have killed over 100 suspects with DEADLY TASERS, and use no discretion nor common sense when faced with an emergency. Perhaps trigger-happy police are not qualified for the job.

"They USED TO be trained to disable, not kill."

Please cite a SINGLE use of lethal force policy that directed police officers to disable instead of kill.

... shoot the gun out of the bad guy's hand?

Anyone heard of pepper spray. The cops seemed to have lost that one in their arsenal.

If you pay attention to DU there's been at least one death a week from Tasers posted here.

When an incident like Amadou Diallo (gunned down by police in NYC) happens everyone is outraged. Yet we still have DU'ers defending that cops have no alternative but shooting to using Tasers.

I don't think these Tasers were tested enough!

when you deal with people who are highly agitated and under the effect of foreign intoxicants, they can indeed die from that. If they are also tasered and they die, people point the finger at the taser and automatically assume that the taser killed them.

but I doubt at the frequency of tasers. Easily once a week I see one or more deaths from tasers. When pepper spray came in to popularity for use by police I saw only the occassional death from being sprayed. Maybe a couple a year at best.

If we were seeing people being beaten to death by police once a week I think there would be more outrage. I remember a couple of local cases of deaths caused by questionable physical actions by police that raised a huge stink.

The alternatives are batons, pepper spray/mace, or sheer force to knock down the suspect and cuff him/her.

No police officer is trained that the Taser is a substitute for a gun.

I know several police officers who directly attribute the rise in the numbers of female police officers over the past few decades with the increased availability of non-lethal weapons. In the "old days", when the police were required to use physical force to detain suspects (as you're suggesting) women were effectively prohibited from becoming LEO's because they didn't have the physical strength to engage a hostile suspect one on one. It was the introduction of pepper spray and stun guns, two devices which allow women to disable suspects WITHOUT physical effort, that has allowed female officers to assume more patrol duties.

Removing those tools will effectively relegate women back to desk jobs in much of the country.

in to patrol cars. And yeah, there was a big stink about it, up to wives of cops worrying what the hubby was doing with his female partner.

Women were in patrol cars about the time mace was just coming in to vogue, pepper spray wasn't even around then.

And if you ever saw cops back in the 70's most of the guys weren't all that much of physical specimens that they could go one-on-one with suspects.

The physical strength stuff back in the 70's was a way to keep women off the force. They had ways of keeping African-Americans off as well. It was a good-old boys club. And in some cases it still is.

authoritarianism on one person's part does not indicate criminality on another person's part

Published Friday, May 13, 2005

Two Are Charged In Taser Robberies

The Polk County Sheriff's Office arrested two Lakeland men this week for allegedly stunning men coming out of Wabash Avenue bars with Tasers and then robbing them.

Tuesday, deputies arrested Alexander Williams, 31, of 1025 E. Memorial Blvd. No. 642, for burglary with an assault or battery and two counts of robbery with a weapon. Michael Whistman, 18, of 5530 Christine Road, was arrested for burglary with an assault or battery and burglary with a weapon.

Whistman was being held without bail Thursday night at the Polk County Jail. Williams remained in jail on $45,000 bail.

The robberies happened on March 6 and March 27, according to court records.
(snip/)

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050513/NEWS/505130367/1004

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Officer Suspended For Using Taser Inappropriately

POSTED: 5:14 pm EDT May 21, 2005
UPDATED: 10:40 pm EDT May 21, 2005

LAKELAND, Fla. -- A police officer at a high school was punished for twice using his Taser inappropriately, including one time when five school baseball players asked him to shock them and he obliged.


The 29-hour suspension against Officer Michael Branch was issued Friday.

It came after an internal affairs investigation determined Branch erred in shocking the five Lakeland High School players and stunning two students who wouldn't get out of his way as he tried to break up a fight.

Branch was suspended for 21 hours for the baseball player incident and eight hours for the second.

However, because the internal affairs investigators felt there were "mitigating circumstances" during the second incident, the eight-hour suspension will run concurrent with the first -- meaning Branch loses 21 hours of pay, amounting to about $524.
(snip/...)

http://www.wesh.com/news/4515862/detail.html

:sarcasm: See now we can execute people and at the same time bypass a death penalty trial!

eom

(First, I turned the sarcasm on mu original post within the edit limit)

My fear is since Tasers are potentially lethal, are they really judiciously used? Looks like lately, it's kill the suspect, forego a trial.

I was digging around on Ebaums world and saw a video of a guy getting tasered. Turns out he was drunk, high on numerous mind-altering substances, and was driving. He posed not only a significant threat to those on the road, but to both himself as well as the police officer. Such is the case with a fair chunk of these taser deaths.

I'm sorry. I don't agree with killing anyone at all, but when it comes down to self defense and completely off-the-wall-unruly behavior, I gotta take the side of the cops.

C'mon, Childruns, you know the rest....


"Thanks, Murka! keep my retirement money coming!"

Or at least heavily invested in stock? (I think he's the owner). Bush's first choice for Homeland Security or some other farce?

That came out when he was being vetted after the fact as Tommy Timbertoes replacement.
Not sure if he's an officer of the company or not.

He's slime. Fucked around on his wife, spent a lot of time on the public dime in his manhattan lovenest, shady dealings....Just like Rudi....

Or? He did not accept the Homeland Security position due to having an illegal immigrant nanny or housekeeper, and tax evasion, if I recall...
These hypocrite, corrupt, criminal Republicans that are above the law APPALL me.

This one happened last year some time -- a grand jury didn't return any indictments, if I got that part right. BUT the grand jury didn't get to see the video, which was gruesome to me. The SCLC wants to know WHY the Grand Jury didn't get to see the video.

Apparently the guy killed -- 31 year old black man -- was having a seizure during a domestic disturbance.

Sure seems that way, since so many more black men than white men die from it.:sarcasm:

That is a pitiful shame.

these DEADLY TASERS need to be outlawed, and officers who abuse them need to be prosecuted.
Contrary to popular belief, police are NOT above the law.
And any cops who defend these deadly weapons should recall one of the first things taught in Police Academys is "just because they are a cop, doesn't mean they are a GOOD cop".
Perhaps law enforcement should be retrained to handle emergency situations, and taught negotiating skills.

You hit someone with them more than once and you'll likely kill them.

http://stargate.myfreebb.com/viewtopic.php?t=21

We need to get the Asgard to help us get rid of the Goa'uld parasites in power here now!

show them this

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/tasers/deaths.shtml

deaths are rising exponentially. 1 in 2000, 39 last year. And I note there seems to be at least one death a week posted here in 2005 - do the math. Disturbing as well that 20 deaths are in the 18-29 range and 26 in 30-39.

I think Tasers need to be studied and cops need to be trained that this weapon is only to be used if very serious injury is likely to happen to the cops or if it's the last resort before shooting the suspect.

I think they are using Tasers way to early in their escalation of force. If you don't think so, watch several episodes of newer episodes of Cops on Saturday night on Fox. I've seen several instances there where they go to Tasers instead of physical restraint.

...and these DEADLY Tasers need to be regulated or OUTLAWED, and Law Enforcement needs to be held accountable for misuse or abuse of Tasers. Perhaps if LE could get sued over every death or injury, it would be a deterrent for brutality.

before the Taser Police come for us. BAN them!