Arsenal Found in Elderly Couple's Home (Yipes performed illegal abortions

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Elderly-Couple-Guns.html

June 2, 2005
Arsenal Found in Elderly Couple's Home
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 4:12 p.m. ET

RIDGEFIELD, N.J. (AP) -- A day after police escorted a disoriented elderly woman to her home, they returned with a search warrant and found a massive cache of weapons and gunpowder.

Nearly 500 guns, including AK-47s and high-powered rifles, 500 pounds of gunpowder and 100,000 rounds of ammunition were taken Wednesday from the home of Elizabeth and Sherwin Raymond, both 82.

Sherwin Raymond, a former physician and known gun enthusiast, has twice spent time in prison: in the early 1970s for performing illegal abortions and later that decade for selling silencer-equipped submachine guns.
... cut....

Police guarded him Wednesday at a Hackensack hospital while he received dialysis treatment...

..more at link....

OK I can understand liking and collecting guns... BUT 500.... Yipes...

But I would feel the same way about 500 matchbook cars too....

Mmmmm ....... :evilgrin:

besides sounds better than ShoeAddict

... for a millipede. :evilgrin:

a collection of shoes that hurt. Hope all of yours feel good!

has the shoe fetish. He's collected about 4000 (yes, that's not a typo!) pairs of high heels over the past thirty years. His wife is very short, so she always wore them with stiletto heels, and his interest began growing after that.

Maybe the civil war cannon and cannon balls sitting in a pyramid in the living room. lol

when they took the woman home. That's a lot of guns, but I'm wondering if it is illegal to have them. I've forgotten the laws in NJ, but if it is legal to keep 1 or 2 guns, I don't know why it would be illegal to keep 500. If he was selling them without a license or had plans to start a revolution, that would be different, I guess. I had a very good friend, since deceased, who was a gun collector, and if he could have afforded 500 of them, he would have had that many. He did have about 25 or 30 and he WAS licensed to carry - he was an armed security guard.

has criminalized even THINKING about owning a gun. So I'm sure SOMETHING was illegal...

Sounds like this guy was against prohibition and stupid laws....abortion, guns, it didn't matter to him.

you know, one of those states that isn't filled with ignorant yokels and shitheads...

Too bad trigger-happy loonies feel so threatened by public safety and sanity....

"Sounds like this guy was against prohibition and stupid laws...."
Sounds more like he was bottom-feeding scum who peddled guns and exploited women...you're welcome to him.

are "bottom-feeding scum who exploit women"?

I think that most female posters on this board might take umbrage at that statement, Bench...

Most sane people take umbrage over the sort of scum who peddles submachine guns with silencers and keeps an illegal arsenal, endangering public safety....

"I think that most female posters on this board might take umbrage at that statement"
Of course,you also were pretending that New Jersey was a tyranny...

:eyes:

but we've known that they're crazy as shithouse rats....

to be "pro-lifers." Point up the hypocrisy and inconsistency of the RW milieu.

I collect curio and relic firearms, and own a lot of them. I'm as liberal as anyone else on DU forums on most social issues including reproductive choice.

Owns lots of guns AND has performed abortions. Something to piss off just about everyone.

:evilgrin:

P.S. I'm very glad no dogs or humans were harmed by the suspect, or by police in the execution of this warrant.

from Alicublog: "Libertarianism is something suburban dorks do when they don't have enough get-up-and-go to kidnap, murder, and mummify hitchhikers."

The line I like to use is:
"Libertarians look into the Hobbesian jungle and see utopia".

I've forgotten who sized them up saying "4,000 crabby white data processing clerks can't be wrong."

will be arrested in the future. The Theofascits are on their agenda and no one is safe not even Elizabeth and Sherwin who were 82,

the part about him being a physician? Or the part about him being convicted of performing illegal abortions in the early 1970's before Roe v. Wade? Abortions weren't always legal. Some physicians performed them anyway, and lost their licenses because of it.

Women were lucky to find doctors who would perform the abortion. Often it was some hack out to make money.

People who didn't live through those times really can't appreciate a safe legal abortion.

I'm almost in tears right now. This man was a hero to many women, I'm sure. I shudder to think that if the RW agenda gets passed we may be forced to find good doctors like this again. We cannot let this happen!

I hope this man is treated kindly.

you see, because he had GUNS, he HAS to be a horrible human being. Well, that's what some people would have you believe...

I support a woman's right to choose.
I support people's right to possess guns as long as they don't harm somebody.

he was an unlicensed butcher cashing on in women being kept from choosing...

You got such NICE palymates.

If I had been in the situation needing an abortion I'd rather a doctor than an "unlicensed butcher". There were many of those. The unwanted pregnancy was the lesser of two evils in many cases.

Back then things were very different as I'm sure you know. If an abortion wasn't legal and it couldn't be rare it was better than it be safe. I'm assuming this doctor provided that assurance. He wasn't "cashing in" as you say. He was providing a needed (though, unfortunately, illegal) service to many women.

Back then, selling submachine guns with silencers was still pretty scummy...

"I'm assuming this doctor provided that assurance. "
Because certainly, the kind of loony who amasses a private arsenal and sells guns to criminals is all about safety....in a piug's eye.

"He wasn't "cashing in" as you say."
Sez you. Be sure and show us anything he did to try to legalize reproductive choice. We'll wait right here. After all, a crusader like that must have left a public record.

3 years before Roe. I remember there was a big feud going on between NY and NJ (where it was still illegal) because of this. A lot of women from NJ were coming over to NY to get legal, safe abortions back then.

They took his wife home one day and noticed his inventory. They came back later with a search warrant. There are strict guidelines for storing explosives. You just can not have 500 pounds of gun powder sitting around, it is just not safe.

In no way did any of this have anything to do with abortion or his past issues.

That is the only reason one ought to be seizing a private arsenal.

I wonder if he has receipts and how many were bought by his wife.

Jay

for obvious reasons...

What a fucking loony this guy is...

Or just him?

assault weapons are illegal....which will come in handy now.

The state's definition of AW is (of course) different from that of any other state's or the expired federal one.

Acquisition or possession of any firearm by a convicted felon is illegal in NJ. I guess the guy figured since he couldn't have any weapon at all legally he might as well get whatever the hell illegal ones he felt like.

And let's be perfectly clear here - With his criminal record there is no way he could have acquired any of those weapons legally. They all had to have come from illegal sources.

"I guess the guy figured since he couldn't have any weapon at all legally he might as well get whatever the hell illegal ones he felt like."
Good thing gun dealers didn't have any problem selling them to him, eh?

But I thought you needed at least your FOID card at a gun show.

Likely most of these weapons were black market.

No amount of regulation of legal weapons will EVER remove the black market trade in stolen weapons.

And the way things are going in the USA now, I think every Democrat ought to obtain and learn to use a combat-capable weapon.

Mikhail Kalashnikov himself!

there's no gun show loophole...

"No amount of regulation of legal weapons will EVER remove the black market trade in stolen weapons."
Jeeze, those guns are some hot shit deterrants to crime....NOT.

"I think every Democrat ought to obtain and learn to use a combat-capable weapon."
Hell, why not just send the money directly to the GOP and cut out the middle man?

So tell us, who are you going to plug with your popgun first?

You can believe me or not, but if we are not armed in the Blue States, we will be killed off.

Better hide under the bed....

Didn't work very well for the German Jewish community in 1938.

I plan to stay right here and keep speaking up about what a pathetic dishonest bunch gun loonies are....

"bottom-feeding scum who exploited women" by providing reproductive services to women...

That's why I support folks like Schumer and Feinstein, who support common sense gun control and the right of women to choose...

that New Jersey would NOT dust off their law that was struck down by Roe v. Wade in the first place? Aren't there a lot of Catholics in NJ? Like something in the neighborhood of 30% to 50% of the population? They tend to be pretty liberal in a lot of ways (for example, opposing the war in Iraq) but they sure do frown on abortion....

and private arsenals are the sort of shitheads who oppose legal abortions.

Now go bash Catholics somewhere else.

Huh. Go figure. I'da thunk the POPE saying that Catholics need to oppose abortion would have made that a matter of doctrinal law, not "bashing". Or do you deny that the Pope said that?

I just hope it remains long enough for us to exploit it before the War starts.

Or are you just going to wave it in the air and shout right wing gibberish? That seems to be the raison d’être of the trigger-happy fringe.

I do 16 hours of work almost every day on this cause of ours.

When war comes, trust me, you'll know who to shoot.

This cause of mine doesn't include shooting anyone....yours clearly is no different than the Aryan Nation's cause...

That man has done more for getting the Progressive message heard than any twenty like you.

I'd follow somebody like him into Hell.

Have no illusions, they will start killing US soon.

Either be a lamb to the slaughter or a wolf that fights back.

I know which I will be.

"I'd follow somebody like him into Hell."
Geeze, you're convinced by half-assed chest-thumping like that? Sad.

"Either be a lamb to the slaughter or a wolf that fights back.
I know which I will be."
Yeah, there's one like you born every minute.

Not necessarily. They could have been bought at gun shows or from private individuals.

There is no legal source for guns for a convicted felon in New Jersey, or any other state.

This is something a lot of people seem to not understand. The federal prohibition against providing a gun to a convicted felon applies to everyone, everywhere, all the time. Whoever gave or sold him any of those weapons broke the law.

peddling "silencer equipped submachine guns"

Dude should be arrested for not fitting into my political stereotypes!!!

I share your confusion!:rofl:

Don't know about you, but my "political stereotype" isn't a paranoid loony without a medical license who performed abortions in some back alley...

MrBenchley, I love you dearly, but that was humor. Or rather, a weak attempt at it, apparently. :-)

It's good to know that you also oppose women's reproductive freedoms, and the people who provide abortions...

.....because abortion was illegal....

As for opposing the right to choose, I leave that to the sort of trash that trumpet that "gun rights" horseshit...you know, trigger happy shitheads like the Second Amendment Caucus in Congress...

(edited to reflect the Newsday article below, which indicated he DID once have a medical license)

on an issue that damned near EVERY person who claims to be progressive opposes you on...

If Roe v. Wade was overturned, I guess you wouldn't shed many tears when progressive doctors were stripped of their medical licenses and thrown in jail for performing illegal abortions...How did you so quaintly put it upthread? Ah, yes: "Sounds more like he was bottom-feeding scum who exploited women"...

You said upthread that "I'm welcome to him"...Thanks, I'll take him.

"on an issue that damned near EVERY person who claims to be progressive opposes you on."
Funny, pretty much every progressive I knnow or have heard of thinks the assault weapon ban should have been renewed and that abortion ought to be legal...

"f Roe v. Wade was overturned, I guess you wouldn't shed many tears"
Nice to see your guesses are as idiotic as ever.....

"Sounds more like he was bottom-feeding scum who exploited women"...
And he was. And he turned out to be as crazy as a shithourse rat too, and a public menace.

:toast:

Hey you're right, it does feel better!

I think I would prefer the guns over the Hummel's... :evilgrin:

it is just that my aunt has about 500 Hummel figurines crammed in a curio...and I find the whole thing ridiculous until of course I am retired and collecting some oddball item..

I started collecting guns at about age 32. It's much easier to buy things when you have a good income. In retirement I plan to shift to gun restoration as my main hobby, then if I ever need to I can sell the collection off for a substantial gain.

The only regrets I have in gun collecting are the ones that got away because I didn't think I could afford them or waited too long to make up my mind to buy them.

;-)

SHOES ...... :evilgrin:

You can have my Dr. Scholl's when you pry them from my cold dead bunions...

extra teeth.

starvation retirement plan? Give these poor folks a break.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newjersey/ny-bc-nj--elderlycouple-gun0602jun02,0,4414055.story?coll=ny-region-apnewjersey

There must be more than this that warranted a warrant. I think they went inside to take a peek around. Cops always like to know what's inside cars and homes.

Would they need a warrant if they thought something was fishy just because her windows and doors were allegedly open? I don't think so.

I think they ran the woman's name or her address into the database. They found out there was a convicted felon living at the residence and went in for a peek and saw the cache.

--Police said they sought the warrant after bringing Elizabeth Raymond back to her home on Memorial Day and seeing the windows and doors open.

Police suspect many of weapons might have been bought at gun shows. Federal authorities are expected to investigate where they were purchased and whether they had ever been used in crimes.--

how many guns he had before he started leaving the doors and windows open...and who walked out with them....

It sure doesn't seem he has any medical training...but that he cashed in on abortion being illegal....

without making them go to med school...

RTFA.

"His wife, who was not charged, was taken to a nearby hospital so she did not have to be alone."

"We don't want you to be alone, so we're going to detain you."

Down in dumfukistan, where the trigger-happy loonies live, I'm sure a poor senile woman would be left on her own to starve...

Given your anti-abortion stance, why does that not surprise me?

And try and moan some more about what brutal tyrannies blue states are...

at the time Roe v. Wade was handed down???

Sure must be hell for you living in a country with actual liberals in it....

before Roe v. Wade came along?

Don't dodge the question with another of your Benchley-isms, Answer the question.

guy is just trying to spend last few years of his life in peace caring for his wife with her problems and now he will probably be put in jail and she will have nobody to care for her.

Yeah he commited some crimes but that was about 30 years ago, I see nothing wrong with him collecting weapons or ammo.

if a doctor performing abortions prior to Roe v. Wade is really something we should consider to be a criminal act.

There are a lot of people who got arrested for civil disobedience. Jesse Jackson certainly has. Does that make him a criminal and worthy of scorn?

The anti-gun fetishist here may well think so...

"There are a lot of people who got arrested for civil disobedience. Jesse Jackson certainly has. "
Yeah, he has....sometime you ought to look up the term "civil disobedience" and see what it actually means...

"The anti-gun fetishist"
Guess that refers to somebody who is opposed to gun fetishists...

amass huge arsenals....

what makes you think he'd start now?

People who support back alley abortions...absolutely horrible.

and then peddled guns to criminals...

is that he put his livelihood, his medical license, and his very FREEDOM at risk to help women that needed help.

and then when he got busted, he turned to peddling submachine guns to criminals...

New Jersey's ever so progressive ban on abortions, I guess he had to make a living somehow, eh??? ;)

Now go piss and moan about what a tyranny New Jersey is somewhere else....

Then that's what you do. The article clearly states that the man was a physician, not just some back alley butcher. He's an old man, whatever eccentricities he's had throughout his life are probably amplified as he ages. He's into guns, big f'in deal. If you're afraid of guns, thats nice, but just remember the old saying "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who don't." When the revolution comes, all you big fraidy cats will be like cattle in a holding pen, waiting for the slaughter. I will be dug in deep, with my anti-gubment gun-nut friends.

I too would like to live in a world without guns and other weapons, but until humanity decides to evolve a few more steps, that simply won't happen. Guns and other weapons will be around for as long as people need them to protect themselves from other people.

He sounds like a proper anti-fascist and anti-authoritarian to me. I hope he gets off easy.

He may have been a physician, but he was performing illegal operations, without regulation, using who knows what equipment, procedures, counseling and emergency measures. If anything went wrong, who would report it? What recoure would the women have in the case of malpractice. Women in distress, in the darkest hours of their lives would come to him, and he would take control of their situation and make everything OK, don't worry about a thing, no one will find out. Maybe that was satisfaction enough for him. More likely, he took money so he could profit off of these women in distress. Like I said before, monster.

As I said in another thread if the abortion couldn't be legal and it wasn't rare at least it should be safe. If I had been in the position to need an abortion then - and I knew many women who were - I'd have preferred a doctor over a "back alley abortionist".

Regardless of how one feels now about abortions, or even how one felt back then, the doctors who performed these services were not all hacks and weren't preying on women's "distress". They were a big help to many many women.

Let's also not forget that performing illegal abortions wasn't the only felony this loon got convicted of...

I've been-there-done-that through friends' situations. I don't really care about the gun situation right now. I'm just commenting on your insistance that this guy was taking advantage of women's crises.

We disagree and that's that. Have a great weekend. I have to go back to work.

Wow, another tough guy...

While you're waiting for the slaughter, ever think of going over to a gun owner's online forum and battling the fearful load of dittohead rubbish found there?

"Guns and other weapons will be around for as long as people need them to protect themselves from other people."
And paranoid loonies will continue to be a public menace. Meanwhile, no other industrialized country suffers the bloodbath we do, because we let the corrupt gun industry set public policy.

illegal abortions were the only way to get them. BTW, since he was a physician, what makes you think that the "back alley abortions" actually took place in a "back alley", and not at his medical office?

you mean that a LIBERAL State had BANNED abortion so that women had to flee the state to exercise their reproductive freedoms???


That's a strange definition of "liberal"...

i just read through this thread, and i just know i can't be at DU... more like Testosterone City, with the stench of arrogance.

about what a tyranny a blue state is?

and then get back to me.

They have those liberal ideas you hate so much....

That you are not worth arguing with...

Welcome to my ignore list.

You ain't had anything to say worth hearing, except warmed-over chest-thumping....

And if you can't even respond verbally to refill's lame swipes at liberal New Jersey, you're highly unlikely to be any help to liberals if bullets start flying...

until SCOTUS said "That's unconstitutional, you asses!"


There used to be a lot of people affiliated with the Democratic Party in the South in the 1950s. Does that mean they were "Liberal" states, despite Jim Crow?

New Jersey BANNED abortion when it was legal to do so. Real "Blue State" value there...

"There used to be a lot of people affiliated with the Democratic Party in the South in the 1950s. "
Funny thing...they all became Republicans long ago...and when Jim Crow was dead they tried to hide their racism behind "gun rights"...but they didn't fool anyone but the really stupid or dishonest.

at what the percentage rate of approval for firearms permits in NJ is for minorities as opposed to the percentage rate of approval for sirearms permits for white people?

how many racist asswipes we can find spouting "gun rights" rubbish...because it's all of them. From the KKK to David Duke by way of the Aryan Nation, they all spout "gun rights" horseshit.

It must be sheer hell living in a country that has liberals, when you hate them so much.

really has to be rethought by Liberals. Of course I'm not in favor of criminals having these weapons, and I think that in a perfect world, no one should possess them. I don't own one and have never shot anything larger than a 22, but our founding fathers created the 2nd. amendment for a reason. Look what is happening with our government. What are we going to do once the neocons and their rigged voting machines take full control, and their drafted and brainwashed soldiers start goose stepping through all of our towns. It sounds crazy, but look what has happened in just the past 5 years. Patriot act, Real Ids, control of the media: It is becoming, and not so slowly, an Orwellian nightmare. This Doctor had the right idea. Silencers for covert assassinations, gunpowder for small explosives, and assault weapons for a small gorilla army. A revolution will not be fought with conventional warfare. It will look more like what the "insurgents" are doing in Iraq. A small army will eventually become a larger army once other patriots see a nucleus. We will need small caches of weapons like the one just seized in NJ. Every day in the MSM we hear how our military has found weapons stored in
houses in Iraq. The Iraqis are already fighting the war we may need to fight here, against the same enemy. It might be prudent to take some notes. We Liberals should be the NRA, not them.

You'll notice even pResident Fuckwit had to publicly pretend he was for renewing the ban, even though he privately opposed it and got it killed.

"This Doctor had the right idea. Silencers for covert assassinations, gunpowder for small explosives, and assault weapons for a small gorilla army."
No thanks.

"We Liberals should be the NRA"
Dishonest racists and crackpots, servicing a corrupt industry. No thanks.

....with that "small gorilla army." Be sure to take lots of bananas.

As usual, this whole revolution scenario you've cooked up comes off as a bunch of sweaty RKBA wishful thinking.....

I agree with you 100% about what the NRA really is. What I meant to point out is that this group is a powerful lobby wielding the 2nd. amendment. Unfortunately this NRA wields it for mostly stupid reasons like hunting for sport. I do believe that guns in the hands of citizens is a deterrent to fascism. As far as wishful thinking: Revolution is the last thing that I want. I have a Quaker education and I believe in unlimited debate to settle disputes. As a person, I would rather be killed than kill. But for everybody else, remember that history can repeat it self, and evil learns from their mistakes too. Maybe it is not a bad Idea to be ready. Ask the Tutsi.

I cut this train of thought short, because I have to go. Just because I write something, doesn't mean that I believe it. There are a lot of was to look at things, instead of just dismissing them. Who knows what the Dr. was thinking.

"There are a lot of was to look at things, instead of just dismissing them. "
Gee, the closier you look, the scummier and more phony "gun rights" gets...