Yale grades portray Kerry as a lackluster student

His 4-year average on par with Bush's

WASHINGTON -- During last year's presidential campaign, John F. Kerry was the candidate often portrayed as intellectual and complex, while George W. Bush was the populist who mangled his sentences.

But newly released records show that Bush and Kerry had a virtually identical grade average at Yale University four decades ago.

In 1999, The New Yorker published a transcript indicating that Bush had received a cumulative score of 77 for his first three years at Yale and a roughly similar average under a non-numerical rating system during his senior year.

Kerry, who graduated two years before Bush, got a cumulative 76 for his four years, according to a transcript that Kerry sent to the Navy when he was applying for officer training school. He received four D's in his freshman year out of 10 courses, but improved his average in later years.

<SNIP>
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student/

Interesting that this comes out at this particular time...

Kerry did.

They make Kerry look like a poor simpering idiot and Bush look like a total Ivy League geek.

What's the POINT of this story?

yup

and, though you can't quite see it in this photo, his left testicle is undescended.

Thanks for the hearty belly laugh this early in the morning!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I never thought I'd see a set of photos where KERRY looks like the ape. JEEZ. Wonder how much time they spent finding that picture.

...and then wrote the article to accompany it. Anyway, I bet Kerry knows the difference between dissemble and disassemble.

-- might not care about grade averages at Yale.

The evidence of an accomplished adulthood resonates with Kerry.

The suggestion of a vacuous ninny haunts Bush.

Beethoven dressed like a slob half the time. It doesn't mean the 27th piano sonata is not a sublime masterpiece.
_____
* I stole the verb 'steamroll' from Hunter Thompson's apt assessment of the 2008 debates.

Succinct and devastatingly true.

-- Cincinnati.

How do you survive there with WLW blaring out of every radio in town?

My sister lives north of Cincy off I-75. Between WLW's rightwing propaganda and that Touchdown Jesus statue up at the St. Rt. 63 exit, I'm thinking you must have great resilience to have endured there.

Yes, it can be hard, and honestly, my wife and I are seriously considering moving. It is cheap to live here, in terms of housing costs and such, but it becoming quite costly to my soul. Regarding WLW, we have a LARGE CD collection!

Keep on doin' it right.

If you move, will yo miss Skyline Chili or Graeter's Ice Cream?

Nice to meet you on DU.

Check out the democracy cell project for ideas. Here's the link: http://www.democracycellproject.net

the houses were built when building houses was a craft. All wood and brick and no particle board.

it, but what a great neighborhood -- the houses and all those old trees...


Nice place!

is the theater. I am going to see, "The Smartest Guy..." there soon. I lived in Clifton for many years. And while I had a great time, particularly during my punker years, I would never move back.

Thanks for jogging my memory, slor.

No matter where you folks move, I hope it's a place you will enjoy & one that has a progressive bent.

-- formidable challenges from (perhaps/probably) Senators Clinton, Feingold, Bayh, Lincoln and Biden; Governors Warner, Vilsack, and Richardson; former Senator Edwards; and General Clark. I'm sure I've forgotten other contenders.

In a manner of speaking the 08 debates are taking place daily, some on the floor of the Senate, where Kerry, Boxer, and other Democrats have been mounting significant challenges to Dubya's questionable foreign policy initiatives and the disastrous Social Security proposal.

An unknown Bach composition has been found in Weimar, Germany

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4071142.stm

Bring it on!

* could have gotten straight c's, jjst skimming by while Kerry could have gotten plenty if A's and B's later on, after all freshman year is often a rough year for many students. I had a decent number of A's, but a d and two c's in my first two years really brought down my average. Fortunately when applying for grad school they look at your overall pattern.

and while *'s high grade was an 88, K's was 89.

Neither got an A their entire careers, it seems.

My hunch: Kerry got more Bs later than * did. I was surprised Kerry did so poorly in French. C.

I know a lot of people who now have masters or doctoral degrees, who got Ds (me too) or even failed courses in their first two years. Schools understand that some early courses are tougher because you have to learn a wide range of material (rather than focusing on a subject you're particularly interested in). And also, it's not easy to adjust to a college environment, especially when it may be your first time away from home (sometimes in a different country).

Now that I've become a college instructor myself, some of my most enjoyable experiences have come from working with B or C students. Many of them are trying hard because the subjects are new to them (as opposed to those who are coasting because they already got the material in advanced high school classes). You know you've made an impression when people are still thinking about concepts they came across in your course, and you haven't taught them for 2 years! I suspect that people like Kerry (and also Al Gore) are more likely to retain and use what they learned, than Bush. Judging by the number of factual and analytical errors Bush has made regarding history (his Yale major), and disdain for economics and management techniques -- I don't think that he learned anything from his undergrad or MBA. Gore, on the other hand, still has an active interest in topics he studied during the 1960s (e.g. climate change, and his undergrad thesis on the power of the media in shaping political debate).

Democrats are able to get something done about the Republican-owned and controlled voting machines, and election officials in place in places like Ohio, Florida, Tennessee, etc.

This is truly pitiful:

The grade transcript, which Kerry has always declined to release, was included in his Navy record. During the campaign the Globe sought Kerry's naval records, but he refused to waive privacy restrictions for the full file. Late last month, Kerry gave the Navy permission to send the documents to the Globe.

Kerry appeared to be responding to critics who suspected that there might be damaging information in the file about his activities in Vietnam. The military and medical records, however, appear identical to what Kerry has already released. This marks the first time Kerry's grades have been publicly reported.
(snip)

They are claiming he finally buckled due to the hard-driving, relentless pressure from the press, and they're probably heart broken that the records don't have any dirt they can use to justify their _Bush-worshipping conduct. Neatly covered up by highlighting the fact his grades weren't so hot, even though the record also shows he was EXTREMELY engaged in tons of additional interesting activities.

He's a senator now, not a senator and a presidential candidate. Apparently, he's still seen as a threat. This Nuzak was one of the featured items on AOL's welcome page ("Guess who got better grades?").

Hell will freeze over before we see "Guess who showed up for duty?" or "Guess who's served the public almost his entire life?" or "Guess who wasn't a drunk?"

Guess who lied?

Interestingly, the Globe story includes this:

Gaddis Smith, a retired Yale history professor who taught both Kerry and Bush, said in a telephone interview that he vividly remembers Kerry as a student during the 1964-1965 school year, when Kerry would have been a junior. However, Smith said he doesn't have a specific memory about Bush.

Based on what Smith recalls teaching that year, Kerry scored a 71 and 79 in two of Smith's courses. When Smith was told those scores, he responded: ''Uh, oh. I thought he was good student. Those aren't very good grades." To put the grades in perspective, Smith said that he had a well-earned reputation for being tough, and noted that such grades would probably be about 10 points higher in a similar class today because of the impact of what he called ''grade inflation."

from Yale remember Bush. He makes a hell of an impression, ya know?

I thought there was supposed to be a dishonorable discharge and covorting with the enemy stuff in there. :shrug:

year of school. How does the cumulative grade average even suggest any thing?

he got that high grade? Anyone who has ever gone to college knows there are ways to sneak through with "easy" classes. What courses did these two men take to earn their grades? That is the only indicator of intelligence. A D in trig can be as good as a A in cheer leading. It also ignores the life learning experiences that go into making us what we are. Are we going to believe that bushie learned as much about real life by being AWOL from the guards and Kerry learned in Nam?

the US loves people who made good despite bad grades.

That is just pathetic.

Karl? You're slacking here. Look alive, man. This smear attempt is too stupid, even for you.

:D

grades his first year too. So did my son and so did a million other people. Gee I guess the really smart are not entitled to goof off once in awhile.

A prof of mine once stated that he was in favor of reviewing people's performance 5, 10, and 20 years after graduation, and revising the grades based on what they've done since then. I thought he was nuts, but I'm starting to see his point.

Kerry had a lot to start off with, but he also ended up contributing a lot. Same with Al Gore. (Gore has continued to think, write, and develop policy on topics which he began studying during his undergrad. I'd guess that both he and his instructors have gotten satisfaction from this, in the past 3 decades.)

Bush was also given a lot, but hasn't really done much -- most of his accomplishments (political and commercial) can be directly attributed to the help of family, friends, and associates like Karl Rove who saw in him something that would serve their own ambitions. Bush's teachers, and the US taxpayers who funded his pilot training, haven't seen any rewards from their investments of time (or in the public's case, money).

Oh, wait, his major was public relations? My mistake.

This means that in the minds of most Amuricans he's qualified to be president now!

"Kerry, who graduated two years before Bush, got a cumulative 76 for his four years, according to a transcript that Kerry sent to the Navy when he was applying for officer training school. He received four D's in his freshman year out of 10 courses, but improved his average in later years."

This is an obviously bogus claim, since all of Kerry's navy records were released back during the 2004 campaign.

My GPA wasn't so hot but it was because I had "other" things going on, I know plenty of 4.0 GPAs who can't figure out how to wipe their own ass. So, I'm sure Kerry has a good reason and he IS smart and complex - GW is still an idiot and I'm sure he had to pay someone to get the grades he did....

My Grandfather had a total of 6 hours of college., plus soem military training. He was a aircraft line chief in WW2. He also had 4 US patents to his name.

Could the drunken coke-head Bush have been able to do the same think at the same time?

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Testimony

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/20/1535232

He was able to discuss a variety of subjects:from Vietnam to domestic issues. Very impressive.

about DSM. These people are willing to betray their country for their Party any time.

I have a friend who was at Yale roughly at the time as Smirky McDumbass. He stated that legacies of rich or powerful families usually were given what he termed the "Gentleman's C". Regardless of how poorly GWB did in the course, he would be insured a minimum of a C. This is speculation but it seems to fit

Also, a grade in the high seventies is not necessarily a "C." Maybe someone from Yale of that era can fill us in.

For example, I went to a pretty good law school, and an "A" was 85-100; a "B" was 75-85;, etc. I was thrilled to get "B"s there (while in college, I would have been disappointed). I was even ok with "C"s considering the competition and the fact that this was a tough school.

Oh here we go. They're leading into this grades story on CCN right now -- as if Bush was really such a brain and Kerry was a dunce. This is so disgusting. (I was watching C-Span and then switched over briefly to CNN to catch the latest news. Can't even watch for 5 minutes without wanting to puke.

Kerry would have had to average 77.5 in his other three years to average out the 71. That still puts him on par with Bush. Though, grades aren't everything.

as he got older. He said he spent more time on his flying lessons that year which caused his grades to suffer. His grades IMPROVED after he got pilot's license.

Let's see...Kerry ACHIEVED his pilot status as a young man. Bush claims he wants to fly to avoid draft, so he gets a million dollars of OUR TAXES in training and he CHOKES. HE FEARS LANDINGS. HE'S GROUNDED. And there's no story there?

John Kerry improved and worked hard to pull his grades up. He was asked and delivered the senior oration at his graduation speaking on the VietNam War. Bush remained mediocre his whole four years- never trying to improve because, I suppose, it was "hard work". Kerry was and still is the better man. Like someone else mentioned, just consider the debates then tell me who actually, worked to grow and improve in college.

Gotta give the dittoheads something pre-emptively. If it wasn't this, it would've been another "Teresa once said something mean and nasty!" kinda story.

But this will do. Remember, dittoheads are both stupid and dishonest, and thus "Kerry got lousy grades" somehow equals "We have proof that Bush was going to war in Iraq no matter what."

... has always had a hair across it's a** about Kerry.

I don't know why.

For a consistently liberal paper, they never fail to find someone to write a dismissive article about Kerry. Joan Venocchi anyone?

All unpleasant.

First off, Kerry finally signed his waiver of privacy form and authorized the unconditional release of his records. He was always going to do it. Why he didn't do it when asked two years ago is a mystery to me. Not signing the form, and always "looking into it", was a bad, bad PR move.

Second, somebody made the claim that Kerry and * were on par for intelligence based on their grades and other records. This was met with derision. An interview conducted the next day or two by MSNBC (ABC?) raised the question, and Kerry's response was that they couldn't possibly know that, "I didn't release ...". The transcript was posted. It was mirrored. This piqued a lot of people's attentions, because it made clear that he knew there were unreleased records. But within hours the on-line transcript was altered to remove those lines, and Kerry was back to saying he had released all his records.

Third, it was groups like DU made *'s college grades an issue. A big issue for some people. College grades weren't unimportant; a bad freshman year wasn't unimportant. They were crucial. They were all-important. They were one of the most important Signs that * was stupid, troglodyte, Neandertal, subhuman. Meanwhile Kerry was surely smart, superior, evolved, and the future of humanity. And the way many Kerry-supporting and strongly Democratic groups spun it, the most important evidence of this was *'s college grades. If Kerry's grades were on par with *'s, one of the props supporting this line of reasoning falls. * supporters know he had lousy grades; the chortling you hear is not them saying "Kerry's grades show he's stupid", but "Kerry's grades show that many of his die-hard supporters were stupid."

Fourth, Kerry's obvious superiority and *'s obvious mediocrity, largely based on undergrad work (but not entirely--a lot of later achievements and failures were read back into the record), meant that there was no favoritism involved in Kerry's achievement. Poor scion of wealthy family does well ... good grades means he has merit ... the American dream. Rich scion of wealthy family does well ... mediocre grades implies he has no merit ... pull and privilege.

RWrs don't care about Kerry's UG grades except to the extent we do. We were set up. Mostly by us.

Thank you.

It's always good to hear a voice of reason around here....

Kerry supporters' claims that Kerry would be a superior President and was more intelligent were never based on his unknown grades from his 20s. He actually demonstrated his character, intelligence and eloquence over a lifetime.

Whether it was his innate intelligence or the ability to work very hard to learn things over his lifetime, he has become someone considered among the brightest Senators. In the debates, he showed the ability to articulate intelligent positions on international and domestic issues.

So, whether you assume he was intelligent and blew off studying (especially in his freshman year) - and was in 4 sports, headed the political union and was the star debater while working a part time job or he was less intelligent, but in his legal career and in public office worked extremely hard to become a leading expert on several committees - the end result is a very impressive person.

It means I've said "bad UG grades --> loser". Many people did. Maybe not you. I know I didn't, because my UG grades weren't all that great so I rather prefer to think they're disconnected from reality.

But the mocking of anybody because they're a mediocre student--and if a person mentions it means they think the information is relevant--inevitably leads to why that metric isn't applied to everybody equally. Those that made an issue of *'s grades made Kerry's grade an issue. They weren't circumspect. They had a set of beliefs. Their beliefs weren't reality based.

The thing is, their UG grades are a completely unnecessary information. * was a poor student. So was Kerry. No cause for outrage; no big reason for trying to defend one set of grades, or make the other out to be worse than they were(and there's a lot of both going on). Both men preferred their own social activities to academics. Their later track records are far more important.

A little too much handwringing for my tastes, but your third point is especially on target. I remember post after post here about that. Also your point about wingnuts not caring about Kerry's grades unless we make a point of it.

My opinion then and now is that grades barely matter in the measure of a person. What you do with your life, and whether you achieve what you've set out to do, is what matters. In that context, * gets the failing grade.

Peace.

...after reading your post twice and thinking about it.

So this media frenzy about nothing is a good example of how things can come back to bite one on the tukus.

from the Bushies. DU has been inundated lately with these threads. All skewed to take focus away from the Bush debacles and put the emphasis on Dems failings.
Must be the sour economy, the horrendous Bolton nomination, the quagmire of Iraq, and the Downing Street memos that has them so fearful.
Quick look over. Kerry wasn't a top student.
Meanwhile back on the home front, we have an incompetent liar as president and his henchmen are ruining our country.

it will be good to note how this story is played vs. covering what Kerry talks about today on the DSM.

I predict the grades story will be front page, and the dsm story will be buried, if covered at all.

We should have DUers from all over report on how its handled.

So they both partied their way through undergrad - and Kerry did slightly better than Bush.

Now what happened in Grad School?

Doing other things besides school? Like being married?

Kerry's first wife was the former Julia Thorne, whom he married in 1970

As he was graduating from Yale, John Kerry volunteered to serve in Vietnam, because, as he later said, "it was the right thing to do." He believed that "to whom much is given, much is required."

Why are they even doing this story? What's the point? Kerry's not running against Bush. It's ironic that they're trying to bring him down to Bush's level though.

And why is it coming out now?
Why do they keep beating on Kerry?

Your "liberal media" at work!

Isn't the election over? Aren't the GOPers always saying, "Get over it?"

The idea that * was and is truly a "c" student is laughable.

It is apparent that the Rove and Swiftboat tactics have been successful in covering-up George W. Bush's total failure to keep his commitment with ANG, thus his desertion. The Bush machine has effectively chosen to ignore and absolutely maintain silence on George W. Bush's TANG service.

The little that is known about George TANG, is that although he rated low on his entrance scores he was given preference over hundreds of other fellow Texans. The Whitehouse has opened so files to the media his entry into the TANG and his Discharge.

I may have missed something but there has never been a mention of George W. Bush, applying for or his time spent in Officer Training School (OTS). Having worked with in a civilian capacity with US military officers, all of them that had received their commission as graduates of civilian colleges/universities were required to attend OTS to train in all phases of military conduct.

Georgie certainly should have records of his OTS attendance.
I have also wondered why no one has questioned Georgie's ANG Service
commitment of 6-8(?)years and he only made LT grade?

they became?

My adult self has nothing to do with the scruffy 18, 19, 20-year-old I once was. And my grades (particularly after I discovered beer) were nothing to write home about. Years later in grad school -- no longer scruffy, doofy-looking and hung over -- I got straight A's (while holding a responsible job).

If we were all judged by what we did when we were in our late teens, the world would be a sad place.

Bush prevailed, and he's still not happy. So he smears Kerry some more. The GOP is intoxicated with power and this is what they do with it? Strange lot, the republicans.

Either of them....I could care less how someone does in school overall.

I want to see elementary school grades, junior high grades, hell I want to see what kind of notes where taken on them in nursery school.

I want interviews with former principals, teachers, front office personnel, janitors, bullies, nose pickers, and tetherball players.

I want hard-hitting exposes on what GW liked for lunch on Thursdays, whether John Kerry checked yes or no when he was presented with that note during study hall, and how come neither man attended their respective Sadie Hawkins dances.

Oh wait.

Nevermind.

:banghead:

The story is coming out now because the grades have only been recently released. So the timing is fair. Also, since we made a big deal about Bush's grades, WE made grades an issue, so it is fair to post Kerry's grades, too.

Now, here's the argument about why Bush's grades matter more than Kerry's. Kerry has accomplished great feats in every path he has undertaken. Even as a student, his speaking ability was recognized, and he addressed his graduating class. As a soldier he was highly decorated. As a peace activist, he was singled out to speak before Congress. He excelled as an attorney, and as a politician, being elected at the state level many times before running for president. His career in the Senate has been distinguished.

As opposed to Bush, who never achieved in school, deserted the military during the time of war, failed at every business he attempted, was under constant investigation by the SEC for cheating to make money, and rode into the governorship in Texas based solely on his name and his father's takeover of the Texas media.

For Kerry, the grades are an aberation, for Bush a way of life.

Now, one more point. The media ignores every damn speech Kerry makes, on the economy, Iraq, the Downing Street Memo, etc. THEY treat him like a former story, and they point out that now he is just a senator, not a presidential candidate, so he is not newsworthy. OKAY, so why is he now? Why are his public opinions on current hot topics not worthy, but his grades in college are?

It's a fair story, the timing is fair, and it does say something about Kerry, who is obviously already campaigning for president. But it says more about the media that they will print trivial details to slam Kerry, but not print urgent current news that might help Kerry and the nation.

Good strategery, Karl.

Too rich!
:rofl:

No failed business,no Saudi-connections, no drug habits, etc.

Funny how the media still thinks they need to Swiftboat this guy.

and my college grades are not much better. College is boring and often pointless. Most teachers provide you with little to no relevant information. So what is the solution to that? Don't go regularly! That has killed my chances of a straight A average. It matters not what frisbee golf classes you take in college but what you can do in the real world, and Kerry has proven his worthiness in the debates.

eom

Except Bush did not have the grades or SAT scores to get in Yale in the first place. He was a legacy.

All you had to do is read Tour of Duty and Kerry talked about his grades, he was a kid interested in flying and so many other extra-curricular activities, at least he expanded his intelligence and kept on learning more and more, I could care less about his grades, his intellect now speaks volumes.

And there's no similarity there.

Of course, that's coming from a person who brags that she doesn't keep up with the news...and who once didn't vote in the gubernatorial election because the polling place was "too hard to find." :eyes:

Does that make him stupid enough for this country?

Please?

Forget it, this country is way too stupid for Kerry.

But I'm a biology major and an English major.
My GPA for bio is 2.5, my English section 3.9.
Cumulative, it sucks. But I'm learning SO MUCH and I love every minute. I don't care about grades, I know I'm smart.
Grades only tell half the story. Anyone with a fuckin' brain can see the intellect shine in Kerry's eyes, whereas Bush's eyes are dull and not interested in learning.

Kerry must be much smarter.

:dunce:

Didn't Cheney flunk out at Yale, and didn't Rove only make it through one semester?

as a "legacy" student for christ's sake! They really should be ashamed of themselves for that extreme sin. That little pinhead is a complete embarrassment as an alumni and a perfect example of why a degree from Yale should be hidden deeply in the closet.

Gyre

Many people are 'book smart' and have no people savvy or practical application savvy. I would judge Kerry as thoughtful and smart. I think * is just stupid and has a-holes for advisor's. Well, and plus I just flat out hate *. I'd send him to Gitmo, with a hood on for interrogation practice anytime.

...twenty years of alcohol abuse and dappling in cocaine can shrink one's brain. Teresa Heinz spoke of Kerry's elegant intellect. Heard anyone say that about Shrub?

First of all, anyone who has attended an Ivy League or Ivy league level institution knows that its cut-throat and difficult because they only give out so many grades and its ultra competitive. I worked my tail off and studied hard and I graduated with a B- average from an Ivy League school. I also admit that my "freshman" year was spent discovering a lot of things and getting used to life away from home. But did this somehow reflect that the person in my classes that got an A or A+ average somehow performed better in life, got better jobs, made more money? No, not at all...

In fact, might I remind a lot of people here that one of my former employers, Microsoft, was started by a guy who dropped out of Harvard...

Anyway, I can say that my B- average didn't hurt me...I was able to have a career where I did well enough that I was able to retire at age 35 and afford being a stay-home Mom and never working again...I also know that IQ and intelligence has nothing to do with test scores and grades either. I know many incredibly intelligent and entrepreneurial people that didn't do well in school, or like Bill Gates, dropped out of school.

Who cares if Kerry wasn't an A+ student at Yale...Bush on the other hand - I am impressed that guy even got 77...in fact, I find that almost "too impressive" if you get my drift... :eyes:

glossed over his military records also released. Nothing new here they said, instead of saying - ah! the Swifties lied.