Oregon anti-meth law would require prescriptions

I'm stuck in Oregon. This is a showstopper.

Where do they get this shit. I don't know anybody who supports this idiocy. They probably polled on the rest of the bill and didn't tell them about prescriptions for cold medicine. All hell is gonna' break loose on this one, enough to set back Democratic progress for another 5 years.

Chronic sinusitis. I'm not going to be at the mercy of HMO's for this crap.

so now the crank cookers in Oregon will have to travel outside the state also. The chances of stopping those assholes are about as good as stopping the Nazis.

their recipes to the alternative ingredient, which will still be allowed OTC. See my post below.

I believe Claritin is one of the ones expected to take a hit. After the Claritin ad bombardment I've suffered - including when it was prescription - I'm finding it hard to feel much sympathy for them.

According to NPR report, which I heard in the last couple days. Probably on Marketplace Morning Report. Here's the deal, as they reported it:

Over-the-counter cold meds used to pretty much all include pseudoephedrine (the ingredient to be made prescription-only). But some companies saw the writing on the wall and shifted their recipe to use an altenative ingredient that (so far at least) doesn't have the drawback of a nasty secondary use, such as meth ingredient.

The companies that didn't make the switch yet are pissed. So they are trying to spread this idea that people won't be able to get effective cold meds over-the-counter. But the companies that did switch, of course say their new stuff works just fine, so what's the deal?

If what was presented on NPR is accurate, then IMO this is a good bill. I generally tend libertarian about drug laws but methamphetamine is wicked shit and I don't see why they shouldn't take one of the ingredients off the market if it makes it harder for meth labs to operate. If it was true that this would make it impossible for people to get cold meds without prescription, then no, I wouldn't support it either. But if there is an effective alternative that will still be sold OTC like they said on NPR, then there's no need for pseudoephedrine to remain OTC and good reason for it not to.

The bill is pure bullcrap and these fascists need to be recalled from office and every single piece of porkbarrel fascism they've ever passed repealed.

That's where I think I heard this story.

I did some googling and came up with this page that lists the cold meds that remain OTC:

http://www.dennisrichardson.org/nonmeth_meds.htm

I think the list is incomplete though - I am sure I've bought a version of "Tylenol Cold blah blah" that didn't have pseudoephedrine. There are so many different versions I can never remember which one I like best. They all work for me, more or less.

i.e. bunk. Pseudoephedrine -based OTC is the only thing out of the list that's ever had any useful effect for me.

that off the market about five years ago.

Right now, in Florida, we can still get it, but we have to buy it in the pharmacy and we limited to three packages of 48 tablets.

When there are four people in the family who suffer from constant allergies and sinusitis, that goes quickly.

I sure hope than no other states follow Oregon's example.

in the main part of the store, but that may change. My family is like yours, the allowable tablets don't last long. For now, I am stocking up. I buy my allowed package every trip to the store. Once the new laws take effect and my family needs more, I'll have to stand in line to get our "fix" of Drixoral (a combo product that can't be used in making meth) about every 5 days. This sucks!!!

One product isn't the same as the next, they certainly don't all work the same for me. It's not hard to track down meth labs, you just follow the tweakers. They aren't hard to spot. The cops where I live might try that instead of writing tourists speeding tickets. They also might try more drug intervention programs, which have been underfunded for 30 years.

I guess I just don't like the way the word "fascist" is being thrown around by some posters here.

Like you say, there are other things we need to do to stop meth production. I just don't have a problem with this law. Here's another reason: most people with "allergies" can take other steps - like lifestyle changes - to prevent symptoms, rather than relying on *chemical* products foisted on us by pharmaceutical corporations. What did people do before pseudephedrine was on the market, anyway?

I've had allergies all my life, the new prescription stuff is worthless compared to Sudafed. There is no good alternative, anyone who says there is doesn't have allergies or chronic sinusitus.

That's why it wasn't included in most OTC cold remedies. People bought pseudoephedrine products because they work better.

the same ingredients so that it can't be "cooked" into meth ingredients. It seems that most of the manufacturers won't have them ready for another 1-2 years, but I think I heard that a German company (I don't know which one) will be ready much sooner.

Have you seen what Meth has done to Southeast Portland? I support this Law 100%

:hi:

I'm with you on the new law, but there are many other effective policies that they could be using, and aren't. We still have a long way to go to get to the roots of this problem.

ps - check this out - we're trying to arrange a Portland DU'er meetup...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=174x2482

This is the first welcome I have recieved so far. :)

bust the labs or legalize drugs
tackle the real problem if it is such a large problem

I am not your mother, you can put what ever crap you want in your body just don't mess with me, then you cross the line. Your right to swing your fist stops at my nose.

KL

whose users consistently are unable to stop their fists before they hit other people's noses.

If someone's 4 kids are abused and neglected and have to be taken away and put in foster care, society pays for that, both through taxes and in terms of societal damage.

Letting meth addicts run amok and hurt other people is not tolerable because sooner or later it's each and every one of us who are hurt by this.

Also, in response to an above post, if everyone in the family suffers from chronic allergies, then it's time to go see an allergist.

and been through the tests and the shots, several times. Our ALLERGISTS have concluded that the most effective medicines are those that include pseudoephedrine. My last allergist told me that anything introduced after 1990 was sh*t compared to the old stuff.

Yes, meth is a problem. But this idiotic solution will hurt many more people than it helps.

I haven't seen anything out of the ordinary, to be honest, not that I have any lack of appreciation for how bad the effects of meth are (I saw the pictures, heard the horror stories, etc.). I wonder why people suddenly have their panties in a bunch about meth. It's been around since 1919 and was no less harmful then than it is now.

Anyhow, the question no one's bothered to ask is why these people started using meth in the first place. It's certainly not because it's possible to synthesize it from OTC medicines or things you can get from the grocery store. Eliminating drug-related escapism is best done by considering the reality they're trying to escape.

Very little about southeast has actually changed.

Southeast has changed? SInce when? How?

Is over loaded with Meth.

That neighborhood has been suffering from one drug or another for a long, long time. The problem is much deeper than meth and has existed much longer than the current meth "epidemic."

In the end, none of that means much in regard to this law, which does nothing to solve the problem at all.

And in most other drug matters, I'm about as libertarian as one can get.

Now that would really be a red state law.

It's next on their agenda, right after creationism.

Sorry, Kansans -- cheap shot.

and I thought that was pretty funny. :rofl:

And back on topic, KS DOES have a huge meth lab problem, so if we stop teaching Math along with Science, maybe these meth cookers won't be able to figure out how to make it. hmmmm

...and the first hit is a formula for producing methamphetamine. A death recipe. I believe in the right of the individual to write about that stuff but, if I were a web host, I'd exercise my right to decline the business.

the media has practically given out the recipe for cooking it. Most of us know all the required ingredients after listening to the TV news tell us about meth labs for over ten years now. I suppose if one was really interested, the specific quantities for each ingredient could be easily found on the internetS.

where you can only buy ephedrine containing drugs at a pharmacy with an ID.
Problem in Montana is that eight counties don't have even one pharmacy.

It has worked in Oklahoma at reducing domestic production, but it has created a smuggling problem - Mexican cartels smuggling meth in through Texas, who has passed a similar law which goes into effect August 1 - so Sen Burdick's hope will probably not be realised.

There was an AP story in the Dallas Morning News on July 29 about the failure of the Oklahoma law to reduce supply; from the article: Oklahoma has seen a 90 percent drop in lab seizures since it put medicines containing pseudoephedrine behind pharmacy counters in April 2004. Congress is now considering similar legislation. In the same 15 months, however, ice seizures rose to 1,875, compared with 384 seizures in the previous 15 months, Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation statistics show.

Here's the link:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texass...

sounds very effective at transferring $$$ from local producers to international cartels

wonder if the politicos are getting a kickback for putting $$$ in cartel's pockets

the price is paid by the poor child in pain who can't get allergy medicine now for parents have only so much $$$ and time to run to doctors for Rx for minor ailments

mexican drug cartels are headed by billionaires already, do we need to put more billions in their pockets

where they're now requiring a prescription to obtain products containing psuedoephedra, your concern would certainly be valid - most other states only require ID for purchase and it is no longer sold OTC.

You're right about creating more power for the Mexican cartels, and this will also add to the violence as they fight for control of the meth trade, which these laws for neceessarily shifted to them.

I thought it was a biker drug. Bike gangs in the seventies where the ones making it when I was young.

KL

But some of them have been making money off the weaknesses of the Gringos since Prohibition--per the old corrido, "Los Tequileros."

Modern narcocorridos now feature tunes about cristaleros. They've moved beyond polvo blanco y yerba mala.

www.metroland.net/back_issues/vol_25_no12/books.html

..."so we'll institute a "strip away one more of your freedoms (to buy otc drugs) AND charge you more for doing it" laws......" I truly fear the day they realize that the one common tie to ALL illegal drug production is WATER!!! One prescription to drink, one prescription to cook....washing clothes or showering will be a nightmare...and yet those reading this will think I'M being absurd....

must be prescribed by a doctor and are considered prescription drugs?

Unless the Feds decide they want to go after the state, as in the case of medical marijuana and Oregon's Death With Dignity Law.

Does anyone really think this is going to do any good at all. All it is going to do is made it harder for people who need the medicine to get it. To say its stupid is an understatement.

you have to show id to purchase otc drugs containing psuedoephedrine and sign a log book that is turned over to the state on a monthly basis also if you are found to buy more than 2 packages a month that is also illegal.
one the most insidious things about neo-cons is making perfectly legal actions seem criminal.

The ClaritinD I use comes in packages of 10 pills which means that if I took one everyday I would need 3 packages, thereby putting myself on the suspect list. I've decided just to live with my allergies or try an alternative. I won't out my name on some list. I live in Texas, not Minnesota but they recently passed a similar law that just took effect.

That's what they're doing in Oregon. Not hardly the same as signing a log book, which I think is stupid too, but not quite as stupid as adding more burden to our already way overburdened health care system.

TO OBTAIN A PRESCRIPTION FOR A COLD. FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS.

I SAW THE DINO DEM WOMAN SENATOR ON TV WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS TRAVESTY.

She is truly what's wrong with america

Top protect me from

WHATEVER?

</RANT>

with your doctor, even if you have the money.

My family needs 6 tablets a day, one package contains 30 tablets, it lasts us 5 days. We need 6 packages a month. This is crazy!!

I was in a drug store, waiting for my meds to be refilled. The woman in front of me (black), was upset because the day be foe, which was a holiday, there were no pharmacists on duty. She suffered allergies and all she wanted was an OTC allergy remedy, nothing more.

The store employees made her feel like a criminal, because they couldn't reach her physician, who just told her to take the OTC stuff in the first place, to avoid the high cost of prescription drugs.

Could she buy them? Oh, of course not. She was black, after all, and it's a well known fact that all tired, middle class black women have sinister motives for wanting to relieve their very obvious sinus problems.

She went back the next day, the day I was behind her in line, and had to sign her live away, apparently, and the antihistamine was placed in a zip lock bag with all kinds of warnings on it. Let me tell you, this poor, hard working American lady just so scared the shit out of me, that it was a relief...a RELIEF...that she had to jump through hoops to get an OTC med to stop her sinus problems.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel safer already. (Heavy, Harvey sarcasm, for those of us who don't recognize it.) Whatever moral compass this country ever had, has been abandoned to the neocons. :sarcasm:

doctor and then pay a hundred bucks for a 3 minute visit. Even with insurance you still end up paying far more because of the coinsurance and/or if you never meet your deductibles. They should just do the bit that a drugstore can't sell more than one box at a time to one customer.

I've got chronic sinusitis, every day, all the time. Getting an M.D. to sign off on anything is pulling teeth, and when I've already figured out what works, getting told to take a different still-OTC placebo for years until I can finally get a prescription for it is going to sink my productivity at work through the floor, at which point I lose my job and within a few weeks of losing health insurance I'm dead from other permanent medical conditions.

i.e. moving to where sudafed is legal is life or death.

In my case, it turned out to be a persistent infection. I had suffered for over a year before the ears, nose, and throat doctor gave me an effective treatment planned which seems to have cured it. Because I was sensitive, as I mentioned, to pseudephedrine and ephedrine, that was not part of my treatment regiment.
For an entire month, I took strong prescription antibiotics, a prescription nasal spray, and prescription guifenesen (higher dose). I was also told to drink large amounts of water. It actually worked.
My husband's boss suffered for over 20 years before he got surgery, enabling his sinusus to drain effectively. He got better as well.
I know that finding a good doctor can be difficult. Obviously surgery is expensive. Even my treatment, regiment wasn't cheap. My antibiotic, with 75% coverage from insurance was still over $100. for example.
I am just saying that it is possible that your condition can be cured.

doc used to prescribe this stuff for me. I was glad when they started selling it over the counter several years back as it meant I didn't have to screw around with the doctors so much and all the extra $$$$$. Try to go on the RX sites, especially the foreign ones that don't require prescriptions. I don't know how far you are from a state where it's legal to buy OTC, but that sounds like it would be a worthwhile trip too. I know what you mean about the MDs signing off on things; sometimes it's like you need to take a loaded gun with you because you know best yourself what you need.

Every time I get antibiotics prescribed I have to scream bloody murder for non-penicillin-like antibiotics, because for some unknown reason every bacterial infection I get is penicillin/etc.-resistant.

Every time I get a new doctor I have to go through at least one round of progressively worsening infection with diarrhea-inducing amoxicillin or similar before they finally back off and use anything else (and frankly, just about anything else does work, even crap like tetracycline). Worst of all, I have to remind them of this every single time.

Seriously - I just don't know that much about it. But I did just waste a week of my life on jury duty for some kid who was accused of posession of it. It was a hung jury. I just kept thinking of how much money the whole trial was costing, and how much time & energy.

http://www.naco.org/Content/ContentGroups/Publications1/County_News1/20053/5-23-05/Meth_crises_creates_generation_of_lost,_neglected_children.htm

"They are scalded with hot water. They are forced to drink bad milk because no one remembered to buy fresh. They are left in hot cars for hours on end while their parents score a fix. They are sexually abused. They are beaten. They are abandoned. Sometimes they die.

They are the children of methamphetamine users and in counties across the country police and child welfare workers are grappling with ways to deal with these so-called meth orphans."

"Many of the children taken from these homes are severely malnourished and lack many basic skills. For children exposed to the toxic drugs there are problems with hyperactivity, impulsivity and probable long-term learning disabilities.

Because the high created by meth also causes an elevated sex drive, many children are sexually abused."

Unlike cocaine or other previously fashionable drugs, meth is cost-effective to produce, making it all too easily available.

It was semi-popular back in the mid/late 1970s among druggies, but cocaine rapidly overtook it and meth was forgotten about.

It's addictive and does far worse damage than MJ.

And it's so much easier to pass a law keeping cold medicine out of peoples' easy reach than it is to encourage them to take control of their lives, in a corporate era when the average Joe has less and less say about their lives and livlihoods.

It's one of the nastiest ones out there, right up with heroin and crack. It's the easiest to get and the cheapest, that's why it's so popular. Very bad, nasty stuff. If you managed to scare that kid into giving it up, you didn't waste your time. Unfortunately, most will not give it up, not without the complete collapse of their life.

The meth that is produced today barely resembles the meth of late sixties early seventies...

Here in our county we have had so many children removed from homes of meth cookers they have decided to use an old school building just to house them...

Some time back they removed all pseudoephedrine from the shelves here...now to buy it you are limited..to the amount...you have to show your drivers license and sign a paper that goes to the sheriffs office..Has it made a difference? Not that you can tell from the arrests made...

They use to use just the tablets now they have learned a way to extract pseudophedrine from the liquid caps...

drugs? I think people are getting hysterical about meth.

Chronic methamphetamine abusers often display paranoia, experience hallucinations or mood disturbances, and are prone to violence. The violence can be directed at anyone, family members, children, neighbors anyone who is handy...It seems most abusers stay angry a lot of the time..

Methamphetamine production, distribution, and abuse frequently are associated with violent crime here in TN. Mexican drug trafficking organizations and criminal groups based primarily in Mexico, Arizona, California, and Texas produce most of the methamphetamine sold in Tennessee, primarily using the hydriodic acid/red phosphorus method. Mexican criminal groups based in Tennessee usually transport the drug to the state; however, Tennessee has a large number of independent methamphetamine producers as well.

In 2004, law enforcement authorities seized 1,574 labs in the Volunteer State — the second-highest lab seizure rate in the nation, behind Missouri.

Methamphetamine lab seizures in Tennessee were down 59% in June following passage of the new Meth-Free Tennessee Act, according to the latest statistics released by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration.

According to the DEA, law enforcement reported 62 lab seizures in June — the second month in which the new law fully took effect — versus 152 seizures during the same period a year ago. The DEA supplied the data at the request of the Governor’s Task Force on Methamphetamine Abuse. In May, the first month in which the new law fully took effect, lab seizures were down 39%.

< http://www.tennessee.gov/governor/viewArticleContent.do?id=576 >

Not sure how much the new law will help if the majority of ours is comming from Mexico.....

I've done it a few times. It feels great until coming down, then there is no worse feeling in the world compared to that high leaving your system.

It's a nasty drug with nasty consequences if you get addicted. I've known a few meth users. I've watched a girl shed several sizes and roughly around 80 pounds until she became a husk of what she once was. Disgusting and sad shit right there.

I don't agree with how they are handling it, though. It's going to take more then requiring ID or prescriptions to get anything with psuedoephedrine in it. You can make meth without that ingredient anyways.

What we need to do is stop incarcerating and demonizing addicts, and rehabilitate them. They need treatment to break the cycle of addiction. A few months of jailtime doesn't make a difference.

The really sad thing is- the girl I mentioned had to go to the hospital because she went too far with crack. She quit smoking crack, but moved on to meth. It's just sad all around.

there are countless stories about people getting high on meth and beating toddlers to death.

It's horribly addictive, very cheap, creates a toxic waste site when it's made, and makes people violent and terrible parents. People stop eating and their teeth fall out. Just BAD news. It is to rural America what crack is to the inner city... just total destruction.

"Rebecca and her four older brothers and sisters lived in a tiny Rancho Cordova apartment with their mother and her boyfriend. They played in a locked bedroom while the adults chased their next high, and the older children tried to care for the younger ones.

On April 24, 1997, an unconscious Rebecca Meza was rushed to UC Davis Medical Center. Her mother's boyfriend had held her under bath water until she passed out, punishment for soiling her pants. Her mother did nothing to stop him."

http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/news/projects/foster/20010610_side.html


"In January 1996, as 3-year-old Adrian Conway fought a doomed battle to live, doctors at UC Davis Medical Center documented the bruises and cigarette burns covering his undernourished body. He had been repeatedly beaten by his methamphetamine-addicted mother, whose final assault was provoked by the toddler's refusal to clean up dog feces.

Child Protective Services had closed its case and stopped monitoring Adrian's life two months earlier.

Then, in April 1997, 2-year-old Rebecca Meza was drowned in a bathtub of ice water by her mother's boyfriend as punishment for a potty accident. Following county policies, social workers -- who knew about the family's drug problems -- had tried to persuade Meza's mother to take parenting classes."

http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/news/projects/foster/20010610_main.html

Here's two links to two of the most infamous cases in the Sacramento area, but normal parents don't freak out and beat their children to death.

I could just as easily find links for people who beat their kids to death on alcohol or people who beat their kids to death for no reason at all. I'm not fond of people who do that, and they should be punished.

I say punish the crime, not the drug use.

I'm pretty sure anyways. There are alternatives, something other than pseudoephedrine...........or just don't get sick :yoiks:

And for those with chronic sinusitis? That never goes away in the first place.

Have you read the contradictions on the back of cold medicines with that ingredient? Lots of people suffer from high blood pressure and heart disease and are potentially harming themselves by buying and taking it anyway. I know that it works, but it is it really safe?
Alright, I know that it was originally deemed safe enough for OTC. I am just biased because I had a severe panic attack from it and then almost passed out after seeing an ears, nose, throat specialist who wanted to see if my sinus swelling decreased any by sticking ephedrine up my nose.
Anyway, there are a number of cold medicines without pseudephedrine. It is probably the best thing for relieving congestion. There are cold and allergy medicines with other ingredients that can also help colds. For example, guifenesen can thin the congesting mucus. Benedryl and regular claritin are effective anti histamines. A number of cold medicines have these ingredients without the offending ingredient.
If there are other decongestions out there that drug companies can be using for OTC drugs, that is a good thing. Perhaps these drugs will be safer for those with cariovascular problems or who are over stimulated by their use.

I've tried guifenesen and benadryl, and guifenesen was a placebo for me, and benadryl is more useful for suppressing hives than decongestion.

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I'm going to be phenomenally miserable for a long time while I arrange to move to somewhere I can get adequate OTC medicine.

I don't care what anyone one says...the only solution is love and lots of it. By love I mean hugs, patience, tolerance, listening, caring and health care.

We don't give that at most recovery programs...we give 30 days expensive spin drys...then the clients are expected to survive on the streets.

I've worked with teens who appear to have recovered. It took years. They came from abusive families where their lives were more appreciated by the sex and drug abusers down the street..so naturally they gravitated there. When we (a group of clean and sober folks) tried to get them help no churches, county health departments or non-profits wanted to take them in.

So we took them in...over and over and over again we took them in until they understood they were worthwhile people and had something good to share with others.

People who hurt, see no future and have no hope turn to drugs for quick fixes...I know, I've been there and back. If you hurt enough no prescription is going to stop you from getting what you need.

Crystal Cathedrals are bull shit and so is this law.

In Oregon....me.

eom

and it's probably because they're made with meth-like crap in the first place.

and can only afford Contact or Tylenol cold/flu and over the counter remedy????

this is fucking outrageous

sorry, but something needs to be done because the Meth problem is huge and horrible here.

From my personal experience, sometimes sinus problems are chronic because they are being masked by OTC meds. That's what happened to me. Once I finally got rid of the sinus infection via strong antibiotics I never got a sinus infection again-which were chronic prior to treatment. I also gave up Tylenol and Motrin and only take aspirin (combined with cold pack and sleep) if I get a Sinus headache.

Also, Oregon has the Oregon Health Plan for those of low income, so it's misleading to say this will hurt those who have no money.

Address please.

OHP only covers people who are near broke, and families first. People who have money continue to be clueless as to what it's like for people who don't. You do know people have literally died due to the cuts in the OHP over the last few years, right?

or Oregon Health Plan for a year or so due to my husband being out of work and unable to find a job. When he found a job it was at working poor wages and though we had health insurance through his new job, we could barely afford the co pays. That's why we rarely went to the doctor plus I don't believe in going to the doctor for every little ache and pain. Not to mention there are many homeopathic remedies that work wonders, making it unnecessary to go to the doctor.

However, when my sinus problem got to the point of being painful, yeah I went to the doctor, got some antibiotics and got better. In addition, one of the reasons I gave up everything but aspirin is because of something I saw on a news program-20/20 or 48 hours-that showed how one mans headaches kept cycling back because the tylenol or motrin he was taking never got rid of the original headache and what he was getting was the same headache over and over. The program recommended aspirin instead and I tried it and it worked. I figured the same could be true for my sinus problems and switched to aspirin and the only sinus problems I get now are sinus headaches about once a month that only go away with aspirin, an ice pack and sleep.

Lastly, I think your attack towards me is unkind and undeserved. Perhaps you should vent at the medical industry in general, since they are the ones ripping ALL of us off.

But say this won't hurt the poor? :crazy:

My remarks seem to be well placed. If you didn't perpetuate nonsense like "poor people will get help with OHP", when you couldn't get it yourself, maybe we'd move further along in getting universal health coverage.

And YOUR solutions to whatever ailments YOU have aren't the solutions for EVERYBODY. Your story isn't pertinent to ANYTHING. I am glad you're feeling better though.

Please don't pretend that this won't hurt those without resources. That's simply not true.

That's the question. It's out of control.

As I posted in reply to the other person who replied to my original post, is that my family and I have been on the OHP. I know what it's like to struggle-BIG time.

Also, anyone without insurance can seek treatment at low cost clinics or the emergency room.

We all know the health care system sucks, and the answer to the meth problem isn't easy.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

It's feel good, do nothing legislation that hurts real people. Real innocent people. And, heck, if it worked, everyone who has followed drug issues over the years knows that meth prices will go up, and, therefore, crime will go up, again doing nothing but spreading the pain of drug addiction across the population.

It's amazing that you think people should spend entire days at low cost clinics, hoping they get seen, or go to the ER in order to treat a cold. How expensive do you want basic healthcare to get?

Your having been on OHP has nothing to do with this question. The fact that a cheap way for the working poor to deal with cold season and continue working to make the money they need to survive has been taken away from them for nothing but political gain. Prohibition of any form does not work. When will we learn that?

Listen, as I said before I've been there done that. And please do NOT put words in my mouth or make all sorts of assumptions about me.

How about this? Why don't YOU explore other remedies for your illnesses before going to the doctor in the first place? I posted upthread what worked for me-someone who had chronic sinusitis and oh yeah, bronchitis for years. I couldn't afford to go to the doctor every time I got sick even with insurance and once I finally got rid of the sinusitis, I found an alternate way to heal myself. Why try and make me the scapegoat for a fucked up medical industry?

The bottom line is I'm sick of the drug problems in this country-so are many people. I've lost family members and a few friends to drug abuse-some are DEAD from it-it ain't pretty. And I've been ripped off by drug users too. Why should the ingredients to make meth be so easy for meth users/dealers to get in the first place? To me, that's just stupidity of the 1st degree.

There was no attack, and no one put words in your mouth.

And now people who have a perfectly good way of treating themselves must seek out alternatives because our politicians choose a feel good, do nothing tactic in the "battle" against meth? Guess what? A lot of us have gone down every road out there, and we've settled on what works.

Again, the pain of meth addiction isn't going to go away with this bill, no matter how much you might wish it to be so. You can use the term "stupidity" all you want, but a look at the history of drug addiction shows that prohibition doesn't stop anything. Never has. Never will. Once that's understood, then maybe we can all try to find actual solutions, rather than fake ones that cause a lot of innocent people money and time for no good purpose. What this amounts to is an unfunded mandate by the Oregon government upon the citizens who live with sinus and cold trouble -- and no good is going to come of it in the end. The problem just gets transferred to other areas, via increased distribution from abroad or increased prices and increased crime.

But why give these people the keys to the candy store? Let em work harder to go and find the ingredients. I think you will find that most meth cookers are doing it because of the availability, low cost and convenience. They may not stop using but they will stop doing the cooking. And that's why your arguement about hurting the rest of the people of the state with this mandate doesn't wash. No doubt most people would rather be inconvenienced than put up with a meth lab next door or across the street.

If that, and even then it's likely to be only for a short time, as sources for the chemicals will be found.

Nothing about the actual problem changes. Maybe there aren't as many labs, but there are just as many, if not more dealers and meth houses and meth addicts. And just as much meth crime. I never said that you said it would eradicate meth. I simply stated that this will do nothing to reduce the meth problem in Oregon.

Meanwhile, yes, other people get hurt while our politicians run around pretending that they did something when they did nothing but offer up a useless unfunded mandate to the citizens of this state.

What makes meth so alluring is that people can make it themselves in the comfort of their own homes.

BTW, do you know how much cooking meth pollutes the environment? It is a hazardous waste nightmare. Can you honestly say you don't mind if people are cooking it next door to your home? Do you want the place you live to be that vulnerable to it?

Let em cook it up someplace else, not in our neighborhoods near our children nor in our beautiful countryside near our wildlife.

Obviously, your choices and priorities for how you want to live are the complete opposite of mine. I think we should just agree to disagree.

That's what happens with all the other drugs around. It's not going to be any different with meth. In fact, the majority of meth supplies already derive from sources other than formerly OTC medications, but no one seems to want to note that. Our media is in a love fest with our do nothing politicians about this do nothing law.

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/meth_factsheet.html

"Domestic labs that produce methamphetamine are dependent on supplies of the precursor chemical pseudoephedrine, which is sometimes diverted from legitimate sources. It is smuggled from Canada, and to a lesser extent from Mexico."

As for the rest of your post, oh yeah, I love the pollution. It's just great.

:eyes:

Let's find a real solution to that problem. This isn't going to change anything. Having watched drug issues for years, I was astounded that anyone even thought about this seriously, but here we are, repeating the same old mistakes.

My priorities are about finding real solutions to real problems. I don't want an unfunded mandate that doesn't change the problem it's supposed to help alleviate. If you disagree, that's your choice.

but this doesn't pass the basic test of benefits exceeding the burdens. The inconvenience to innocent citizens will far outweigh any benefits to society, the meth makers will just find other sources.

This is a "feel good" bullshit bill, that costs everyday people money and time they don't have. And it just might have the effect of increasing crime, on top of it, if Meth prices go up.

Ugh. Why are we such a stupid people?

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It isn't very expensive either, especially when you consider you could stop taking that crappy medicene the rest of your life.

Yes and I agree about the Oregon Health Plan. The funding has been cut dramatically, very sad. And for the rest of us who work and either don't have health insurance offered at the job place or are self employed and can't afford it, not good.

Let me tell you there are many thousands of uninsured people in Oregon and the evidence is being collected as we speak about the deaths of people who either got their OHP cut or couldn't get on the plan do to the cut in funding. It will be a stunning and sad statistic when it is completed.

Home meth labs account for maybe 20% of meth consumed in the US, according to the DEA. Mexican cartels and California super labs are responsible for the vast majority of the stuff.

The bill would probably reduce the number of people cooking meth by some measure, but at the expense of Oregon allergy sufferers.

But don't think meth use will go away because of it.

Best solution: Legalize and regulate it. Make it available at the drugstore. No more home meth labs! No more cops and robbers. Some increase in use, with some increase in problems related to use. In my view, drug use should not be a crime. If someone is doing nasty things because of drug use, arrest them for doing the nasty things.

I hear all these horror stories, and doubtless some of them are true, but is no one struck by the fact that this is just the latest drug to be demonized? Crack was "the new heroin." Ecstasy was "the new crack." Oxycontin was the "new crack." Now, meth is "the new crack." Each one is supposedly worse than the other. Hard to believe, considering how bad they told us each of the previous ones were.

Progress on sentencing reform for drug offenses is being reversed by politicians screaming about meth. Yeah, people can do bad stuff on meth (just like they do on alcohol), but we don't need to get sucked into the hysteria and start supporting even more freedom-taking laws.

Let's see. Minimum $15 copay for primary care physician, or $35 if you need it on a weekend and need to go to Urgent Care. Pharmacies tend to cost more anyway, and the price of cold medicine would probably go up a couple bucks just for giggles.

Cost of having a booger attack: $20-$50 for a pack of Sudafed. Nice.

For those without, it costs even more.

the actual problem. The problem is the underlying causes of drug abuse. The symptom is using cough syrup to make meth. You take away the symptom; you still have the problem.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.19272593

until every state passes it, or something like it.

And even then, while it may be somewhat effective against fighting that horrible meth epidemic, there are other drugs. And there are still plenty of other easily obtained chemicals and meds that could produce other ugly drugs.

But then again- psuedoephedrine isn't necessary to make meth. There are plenty of different ways to make it.

I don't agree with this. What we need is an end to this war on some drugs, and get rehabilitation and treatment for those that need it, not incarceration.

Out of all the people I've known, jail time isn't going to make a bit of difference in their lifestyle. When you get out, you aren't thinking, "Well I've had time to clean up, maybe I'll just start being a normal upstanding citizen."

It's addiction. Not just some nuisance that will go away with a few laws.

A lot of people buy and do meth because it is the cheapest drug out there. A teenager could purchase meth easier than they could get a pack of cigarettes or a bottle of liquor.

At best, it's about moving the problem around.

20 years ago my DH tried to get the state to build treatment centers instead of local jails. Local jails are better than sending people to state prison, but there's no real help connected to them, so they're just human recycling plants. You would also not believe what all you go to jail for in Oregon, just about any petty thing can land you in jail here. Jail isn't even a stigma anymore, and I live in rural America. You know, the land of "family values". ha.

Exactly. And that's a sad fact all across America anymore.

There are so many people going to jail for some of the pettiest things. 14 yr olds walking down the street with a 20 bag of pot. 19-20 yr olds for drinking inside their homes. People who sell small bags of pot to their friends. So many people going in for victimless crimes.

While so many crimes that involve victims go unnoticed. Domestic abuse gets so ignored. Parents who abuse their children given too many chances. Etc etc. Could go on but I'm sure you get my drift.

Victimless crimes. Why incarcerate a kid for smoking a little pot? Why fill the prisons with harmless people who just like to get a little high? When there are rapists on the streets and pedophiles and people who abuse their spouses, children, and family, we are arresting children for having a little dope. Officers have to spend their time and resources on this crap while real criminals are out there.

And now people hardly think a bad thought about jail. Because so many harmless people go there.

Believe me, drug addicts leave scores and scores of victims. Getting a little high is not a victimless crime.

There's a difference between use, and addiction.

I didn't state anywhere that no drug addicts ever hurt anyone.

Some do. And they should be punished for that crime that involves a victim.

Smoking a little pot, taking some LSD, whatever, in the safety of your home doesn't hurt anybody. That shouldn't be punished.

Now if you have a meth addict neglecting their child, or a crackhead stealing from your home, or whatever, those are crimes that involve victims. And they should be incarcerated accordingly.

I'm sure you know a ton of addicts who are all crazy criminals though. :eyes:

to be a drug user and not a drug addict? I mean, look at the stats, do you think there are more "harmless drug users" than there are harmful drug users?

I have met a few addicts...and yes they are crazy criminals.

And what stats, might I ask? I highly doubt there are any reliable stats related to drug users in America.

Out of all the drug users I've known, very few were criminal. And few were ever addicted.

I knew a meth addict/ pill popper who got her child taken away by CPS. And good on them, because she neglected that poor kid. But she didn't get any treatment or help. All she got was her kid taken away. That was the 4th child she had taken from her. And still no treatment for her obvious problem.

Her ex husband was also a meth addict, in and out of jail for petty theft. I agree with his jail time, although if he were given treatment, perhaps that cycle may have ended. Nope. Better to spend our tax dollars putting him in jail over and over again rather than treatment that could help the actual problem instead of repetitive jailtime for the symptoms.

I have known only 1 violent meth addict. He didn't steal. He didn't go out on the streets fucked up. But he would regularly get into fights with his friends and their older children and his woman. All of whom wouldn't call the cops because they felt sorry for him and they all had their own problems.

That 1 violent meth addict is also the only violent drug addict I have met.

I've known a couple of people who were once addicted to cocaine. They had jobs and made their own money. They weren't violent, they didn't rob people, they just lived in crappy homes because they couldn't afford their habits while paying high rent. They didn't have children, they went to work, they had an addiction and were responsible as far as all other matters were concerned. Both of them eventually quit and never looked back.

I've known many drug users. There are a lot more than you realize if you honestly think that all drug users are harmful criminals. I've never known a pot head that would steal for their weed. I've never known a pothead to be violent. In fact, my brother had serious anger problems and used to beat the crap out of me until he started smoking pot.
I've never known a tripper to steal or rob in order to score some acid. I've never known someone to rob or steal to score some shrooms.

Yes there are crackheads and meth addicts and some coke addicts out there who will steal and get violent. That violence and theft should be punished. The addiction, should be treated. Not ignored.



Or we could just assume they are all violent harmful criminals and lock them all up like we do now. If we put all the 14-15 yr olds who smoke pot in juvenile jail, there goes roughly a third of 14-15 yr olds. And we all know that they are all violent harmful children who steal and rob to score their 20 bags of pot. Yes, then we could sleep soundly at night. :sarcasm:

i would presume you agree with this.

Tweakers are fucking disgusting and dangerous. They blow up their little meth trailers in the desert and when they dare to venture into civilization its typically for robbery or road ragin purposes.

I live in Az and I wish we could get somethiong like this here.
Plus, i suppose im not really an advocate for pill taking, so I can understand why people could pissed at not being able to go pick up some sudafed.

And as was pointed out elsewhere, the worst area for meth is Portland. Those folks can literally drive across the bridge to Vancouver and get the stuff. I have tweakers in my little town. What are the cops doing? Giving tourists speeding tickets. I am sick of this nonsense.

when you add the insane heat.
Trust me though, I dont think the cops are doing their jobs either.

I live in Orland, CA, which is considered the meth capital of the world. The problem is so bad it's hard for Longs to keep cold meds on the shelf. They tried to limit the amount you can buy, but the idiots just pooled together their resources and went in one at a time to buy it that way.

The bottom line is that the meth itself is NOT the problem. I could give a rat's ass if these idiots want to kill themselves slowly. The problem is the crime associated with meth from petty theft to murder.

So, as someone who is in the police academy and will shortly be working as a LEO, I'm with ya. Make the stuff as hard to get as possible.

I don't understand why doctors should be involved. That would be an enormous waste of medical resources.

Lock the Sudafed behind a counter and only permit the sale of one or two boxes.

So they had to come up with a distraction. And here it is: using scarce medical resources to do something that isn't going to solve a thing. Doesn't that feel good everybody! Ah, the photo ops are awesome!

What a relief.

For them.

Case studies? Anything? Or is it just your opinion?

I'm a little more optimistic and willing to give it a try.

The real question is what's the evidence that this is going to do anything at all? There is none, yet we're making this a law anyway. That's a sure way to create bad law, to create the kind of law that has unforeseen consequences. Optimism doesn't make for good law no matter how much one wishes it would.

You want evidence? Look at the history of drug addiction and drug laws. Prohibition doesn't work. Never has. Never will. It doesn't reduce the number of addicts. In fact, if anything, it increases the number of addicts and unwanted effects from drug use upon society. Let's not pretend otherwise. This is a feel good law that does nothing but cost people money and time.

Seems to me that a more effective and less stupid approach would be to make it exceedingly difficult for consumers to get some of the chemicals needed to turn Sudafed into meth: red phosphorus, ether, hydrochloric acid, sodium hydroxide. Are there any genuine consumer uses for any of those things? Let's keep industrial chemicals out of the hands of meth chemists, not medicine.

Actually, meth dealers probably don't get much of their supplies of any ingredient via legit channels, which is the biggest reason this bill is a do nothing, feel good piece of doo doo law.

Get a few drugs off the street for what?

Many lives lost.

Get out of here.

'cos you know, you could make explosives with it
(at least, according to Fight Club)

if they could make it where it took a script to buy water, they'd be lobbying for it.

And I work with plenty of them.

increased pharmacy hold-ups, truck hijacking, warehouse burglaries and smuggling. Contact your Representative if symptoms persist.

This is such a goofy law.

not just scan IDs for every purchase and track the mass buyers that way?

after all, nobody can make significant quantities of meth if they don't purchase a huge pile of pseudoephidrine. and no normal person/family needs POUNDS of this stuff per year.