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MaidinVermont Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 05:18 PM
Original message
Cuban dancers defect

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/2003/10/16/news/local/7024103.htm


The day before the renowned Cuban National Ballet took to the stage in Daytona Beach, two of its young dancers slipped away in a startling pas de deux, hoping for a new life in America.

Amador, who spoke to reporters at Rodriguez-Varela's office Wednesday, said the company's tours through the United States and Europe inspired him to defect.

"I began to see how people around the world live, what their individual capacities can achieve in an atmosphere of freedom," he told El Nuevo Herald.

snip........

Why would anyone want to defect from such a democratic and freedom loving country like Cuba?
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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wait a minute for the Castro apologists.
I am sure they will tell you why you should not believe this. They will probably attack the newspaper the story was in.
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MaidinVermont Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. It has just begun...
"But now i'm the snake in the grass, the ghost of filmreels past
I'm the producer of your nightmare and the performance has just begun"

--dwd
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Osolomia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. By your standards it’s the USA that “needs banned by all”

The US government prevents its citizens from leaving the country to go to Cuba so it’s rather hypocritical to be demanding a standard of freedom from Cuba that you don’t live up to yourselves don’t you think?

Looks like Bush’s increased paid political propaganda campaign against Cuba has already kicked in on DU, just watch!
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #15
33. Sorta like
Maid_in_Miami ;-)
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Even New Jersey!

Cuban sandwich
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. 'The Need to Eliminate Favoritism from Immigration Policy '
Information for the FAUX DEM kiddies from Calle Ocho who have yet to grow up. :boring: :boring: :boring:

<clips>

...Since 1966 the United States has accorded a unique status to Cubans in the United States illegally. By Public Law 89-732 (the Cuban Adjustment Act), Cubans who have resided in the United States for one year -- regardless of how they entered the country -- may convert to permanent legal residence status.

The only bar to legal residence is if the Cuban has committed some crime that makes him ineligible. Nationals of no other country are accorded automatic conversion to legal residence. The provision is similar only to the adjustment to permanent residence that is accorded to refugees and asylees. However, the Cubans, unlike refugees, are self-selecting, and they are not required to qualify under the asylum provisions.


<http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1180&c=12&Type=s&insearch=cuba>



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MaidinVermont Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Gee, I guess that nullifies any Cuban personal desire to exit Cuba
So if any citizen of Cuba wants to leave their "perfect" country that makes them wrong? Any country that tries to prevent their "citizens" from leaving is a country that needs banned by all. Cuba sucks for those that desire freedom of thought and voice.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Cuba doesn't prevent them from getting here. The US does
Edited on Thu Oct-16-03 07:24 PM by Mika


MaidinVermont-->"Gee, I guess that nullifies any Cuban personal desire to exit Cuba"


Nope. it proves that the Cuban Adjustment Act gives these immigrants special privileges.

No other citizen of any other country can just announce that they are staying in the US to work like Cubans can. Everyone else has to wait for applications etc.




MaidinVermont-->"So if any citizen of Cuba wants to leave their "perfect" country that makes them wrong?"


What about Mexicans, Guatemalans, Dominicans, Panamanians, etc? Why are they deported? For being wrong?

Its a double standard, plain and simple.




MaidinVermont-->"Any country that tries to prevent their "citizens" from leaving is a country that needs banned by all."


The USA offers over 20,000 LEGAL immigration visas per year to Cubans (and Bush just announced that the number would increase), more than any other single country in the world. Cuba prevents none.

Cubans who leave illegally are returned to Cuba (if caught at sea) by US law. But IF they make it to US soil, no matter who they are or what their criminal backround might be, they get to stay in the US and enjoy perks offered ONLY TO CUBAN IMMIGRANTS. perks like instant work visa, instant green card, instant access to sec 8 taxpayer assisted housing, instant social security, instant welfare, and more.


These perks are not offered to any other immigrant group, but yet, without the perks offered to Cubans, immigrants still pour into the US from all over the Caribbean and the Latin Americas - many taking greater risks than Cubans to get here.



MaidinVermont-->"Cuba sucks for those that desire freedom of thought and voice."

I guess that if America didn't 'suck' and the US government would allow its citizens to see Cuba for themselves, then Americans could see that your statement is false. We can't. Because America sucks for those that desire freedom of thought and voice.

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guajira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. MaidinVermont - the truth is, Cubans on the island regularly visit the US
and then return to their homes in Cuba. Unlike you and me, they get to board a plane in Havana and fly directly to Miami (or NY) and then when their visit is over, they go home to Cuba.

The Miami propaganda machine and the US media would prefer you to believe that the only way to leave Cuba is by raft or smuggled in by go-fast boat! I have friends in Cuba who travel to Spain, Miami, Orlando and anywhere else they want to go.

No one here says Cuba is paradise, but OTOH, it's not what Miami Batistianos and B* Repukes would have you believe!!!

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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
37. LOL How f*ck'n naive is that???
YOUR pResident just banned US citizens from their constitutional right to travel, thereby usurping the will of the American people.

In my life I never would have dreamed that a former leader of the USSR would tell an American pResident to http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42248-2003Oct3.html">"tear down that wall" and then critcize him for prohibiting average Americans from even traveling to Cuba. Doesn't take a Harvard graduate to see the irony in that!

BTW, Cubans can leave their country--the US and Cuba have migration accords--20,000 a year can leave LEGALLY--but you wouldn't know that because you know squat about Cuba.

http://usembassy.state.gov/havana/wwwhacco.html



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Osolomia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. They know, they’re right wing propagandists to the core

And any DUer who wants to buy their lies and bullshit no questions asked in this internet day and bushwhacked age deserve to be trade and travel banned for many more years to come imho. What a shame!

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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. Dunno ... why are so many wanting to leave the US?
<snip>
"I began to see how people around the world live, what their individual capacities can achieve in an atmosphere of freedom," he told El Nuevo Herald.
<snip>

Maybe this is why so many in the US are now jobless, retirementless, healthcareless, educationless, homeless and hungry because they can achieve their individual capacities in an atmosphere of freedom where all the jobs are flying out the window to India and other countries?

:shrug:
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morebunk Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. As a defector, these will be given special privileges.
Remember, they were never exposed to total Miami or rural America. The only reason a lot of poor Americans don't go elsewhere, they can't speak another language, and they are too poor. But no one ever mentions the high rollers who become citizens elsewhere.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
36. Canadian 2001 census says there's more than 250,000 US-born
folks living there.

The corporate press and neanderthals in Miami use the archaic cold war term *defector* because it gets more mileage than "illegal alien" or *refugee*. It's another way to justify the special privileges mentioned in your post that are accorded to the Cubans, which no other immigrant group enjoys such as:

  • Cubans are the only immigrant group that automatically and immediately receives a working permit, does not have to submit an affidavit of support to become lawful residents

  • Gets a social security number

  • Gets public benefits for food and accommodation

  • Adjusts their status without having to return to their country of origin to receive it (as in the case of applicants from other nationalities)

  • Does not need lawyers or money to get the benefit of blanket parole

    http://www.canadiannetworkoncuba.ca/documents.shtml




    While the Cuba asylum-seekers are released almost immediately, the Haitian asylum-seekers are detained indefinitely, creating another huge problem in itself.

    ...The United States also has a policy of detaining Haitian asylum-seekers indefinitely while their applications are reviewed. That policy was put into effect December 14, 2001, 11 days after a boat carrying 167 Haitians was intercepted off the coast of Florida.

    Refugee advocates have charged the U.S. policy is discriminatory, because refugees from other nations are released to relatives or sponsors while their asylum claims are evaluated.

    http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/10/30/immigration.rules/

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    guajira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 05:24 PM
    Response to Original message
    3. For the Same reason Mexicans "defect" from Mexico and Haitians
    "defect" from Haiti, and Dominicans... etc.

    In a few months they'll be flying back directly from Miami to Havana to visit their relatives and friends, like all the other "defectors" in Miami!!
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    cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 08:53 PM
    Response to Reply #3
    14. You hit the nail on the head!
    Only fascist 3rd-world regimes get a pass with current US policy.

    If the current Cuban system ceases to exist, then Cubans instantly become like Haitians. At least with their current system, they have pretty adequate subsistence, are healthy and have reasonbly empty jails.

    This is about the brand of ideology, not quality of life or repression. I see no reason to topple a high-profile dictator and replace him with cruel despots that no one in the USA cares about.


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    diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 06:51 PM
    Response to Original message
    7. Cuba is a poverty-stricken third world country, abject proverty...

    these artists now see that America offers so much more economically and has so much more $$$$ to support dancers....

    drop the Helms-Burton act, and it won't take long for Fidel to fall....he will fall of his own weight....

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    Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 09:14 AM
    Response to Reply #7
    30. Actually, this is not a good time for anyone in the arts
    to defect to the U.S. Artistic organizations all over the U.S. are facing cuts in both government and private support.

    These dancers may end up working at WalMart. If they really wanted to stage a dramatic "defection," they would have been wiser to do so in Germany or some other European country that still appreciates the performing arts.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 09:26 AM
    Response to Reply #30
    32. Gremany and the EU don't deem Cuban illegals as "defectors"
    "If they really wanted to stage a dramatic "defection," they would have been wiser to do so in Germany or some other European country that still appreciates the performing arts."


    They would have to get in line like everyone else to wait for visas work permits etc. Some of those waiting lists are more than five years long.


    That is just the very reason they picked Miami.

    A Cuban Adjustment Act doesn't exist anywhere but the USA.

    No other immigrant groups are given the types of perks given to Cubans by the US Cuban Adjustment Act. Instant work visa, instant eligibility for a green card, instant welfare, instant Social Security, instant access to Sec 8 housing. AND THIS INCLUDES ILLEGAL ENTRANTS who are covered under the US "wet foot/ dry foot" policy for Cubans only.


    It is US law -the Cuban Adjustment Act- that allows any and all Cubans who make it to US shores to stay, and released into the population within 24 hours.. no matter what their criminal record might be.

    The US has a legal method for over 20,000 Cubans per year (more than any other single country) to immigrate to the US with an immigration visa. The US interests section in Havana does a criminal background check for qualification.

    The Cuban Adjustment Act and the "wet foot/ dry foot" policy (for Cubans only) annuls the criminal restriction of a legal US immigration visa, in that Cubans who fail to qualify for a legal US immigration visa are allowed to stay in the US if they make it here BY ANY MEANS.. hijackings, smuggling ops, etc.


    Cool, huh? Unlimited illegal immigration made legal the second Cubans touch US soil.
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    morebunk Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 08:04 PM
    Response to Original message
    10. Just think what Cuba might have to offer its people were it not for
    US embargo.
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    robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 08:17 PM
    Response to Reply #10
    11. Embargo has minimal effect on Cuba, except propaganda by both sides
    Cuba can export anything it makes to Canada, Western Europe and Latin America. Cuba can import anything it wants from those same areas. The only impact of the embargo is U.S. tourism.

    The problem with the Cuban economy is that it is so incredibly unproductive, and cannot earn enough foreign exchange to import what its people need.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 08:36 PM
    Response to Reply #11
    13. Wrong. Helms-Burton is extraterritorial
    "Cuba can export anything it makes to Canada, Western Europe and Latin America. Cuba can import anything it wants from those same areas."

    Nope. I've explained this to you before, robcon. The US's Helms-Burton law is a law aimed at businesses that trade with Cuba, not countries. For example, Bayer cannot sell Aspirin to Cuba if it wants to sell Aspirin in the USA, by the Helms-Burton law.




    "The only impact of the embargo is U.S. tourism.

    The problem with the Cuban economy is that it is so incredibly unproductive, and cannot earn enough foreign exchange to import what its people need.
    '



    Duh.. That's what the US government's travel sanctions on Americans are intended to do to the Cuban tourism economy. FYI, The lion's share of the Caribbean tourism income is from American tourism. Tourism is Cuba's primary 'product' now.

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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 09:21 PM
    Response to Reply #13
    18. Of course anyone half living can grasp the elements of the blockade
    Edited on Thu Oct-16-03 09:32 PM by JudiLyn
    If it does no damage, why not remove it, after all? Damned stupid keeping something in place which is simply innefectual, and creates mountains of paperwork anually, right? :dunce:

    Mika, I hope you'll find this interesting, concerning the disputed effects of the embargo:

    (snip) The Association for World Health found that the embargo had "caused a significant rise in suffering--and even deaths in Cuba." The Cuban people are denied access to half the new medicines on the world market, and are unable to buy some life-saving medical supplies because the U.S. punishes countries which trade with Cuba. Fatal heart attacks have increased because the U.S. pacemaker monopoly refuses to sell to Cuba.(snip)

    It doesn't seem to take when you provide actual links to counter the propaganda, as the propagandists return immediately with the very same charges and statements!

    Here's the article from which the snip is taken:

    October 16, 2003

    A Cruel and Unusual Embargo
    Bush Gunning for Regime Change in Cuba
    By MARJORIE COHN

    In a brazen move to solidify his electoral support among Cuban-Americans in Florida, George W. Bush is gunning for another "regime change." Last week, Bush announced the formation of a commission to "plan" for a Cuban change in government.

    No country has the right to change the regime of another. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, a treaty ratified by the United States and thus part of the supreme law of the land under our Constitution, recognizes self-determination as a human right and guarantees all peoples the right to "freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

    One need only look at the mess Bush has created in Iraq to understand the wisdom of this principle. Iraq is completely destabilized, the infrastructure has been demolished, thousands are without work, water, electricity and medical care. Many say they were better off under the tyrannical rule of Saddam Hussein. That choice was up to the Iraqis, not the United States.

    What if Sweden decided that the United States needed a regime change, because of the high number of people living below the poverty level, without jobs or health care, the police brutality on our streets and in our prisons, the execution of innocent people, and the indefinite detention and inhumane treatment of 600 people in Guantanamo for nearly two years? Would Sweden have the right to impose "regime change" on the United States? (snip/...)

    http://www.counterpunch.org/cohn10162003.html

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    guajira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 07:29 AM
    Response to Reply #13
    27. Right on, Mika - take away tourism from Miami - and what would be left??
    Miami and almost all islands in Caribbean, Bahamas, and Virgin Islands, etc. depend on tourism as their only real industry. That is why Miami Batistianos are so cruel in their hatred for Castro.

    Not only do they deprive Americans (thanks to pandering US politicians, and complicit US media) of freedom to travel, they deprive Cubans on the island of jobs and contact with American citizens.

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    robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 08:38 AM
    Response to Reply #13
    28. You've got it wrong about Helms-Burton Mika.
    Mika wrote: "I've explained this to you before, robcon. The US's Helms-Burton law is a law aimed at businesses that trade with Cuba, not countries. For example, Bayer cannot sell Aspirin to Cuba if it wants to sell Aspirin in the USA, by the Helms-Burton law."

    You're wrong, Mika.

    My former employer, Pernod-Ricard, is in a joint venture with the Cuban government, producing Havana Club Rum, the 2nd best-selling rum in Western Europe. This in no ways prohibits Pernod-Ricard from selling rum (not Cuban, of course) in the U.S., and Pernod-Ricard, the third-largest producer of spirits in the world, sells wines and spirits from all over the world, as well as domestically produced Wild Turkey Bourbon and Seagram's Gin.

    The Helms-Burton law has no punch whatsoever, except to give the U.S. a black eye for attempting to legislate what other countries can do in Cuba.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 09:16 AM
    Response to Reply #28
    31. Sorry robcon - you've got bad info
    "My former employer, Pernod-Ricard, is in a joint venture with the Cuban government, producing Havana Club Rum, the 2nd best-selling rum in Western Europe. This in no ways prohibits Pernod-Ricard from selling rum (not Cuban, of course) in the U.S. .."



    Your former employer, Pernod-Ricard, cannot sell Havana Club Rum in the USA. They cannot directly distribute US made spirits to Cuba (that gets done through 3rd party distributorships that deal with Cuba and not the US).

    If your former employer, Pernod-Ricard, decided to sell Cuban made Havana Club Rum in the US, it would lose its license to sell all of its products in the US. If they sold their US made products directly to Cuba (not including the foreign owned business in Cuba that ship in their own supplies) without an OFAC license , it would lose its license to sell all of its products in the US.

    Bayer COULD sell Aspirin to Cuba, but it would have to give up the US market in order to do so. Of course, just like Pernod-Ricard, Bayer chooses the larger market.


    For example, the Cuban government buys Aspirin and other products that it cannot buy directly, because of the US Helms-Burton law, from 3rd party suppliers who mark up the price.. thus making these products even more unaffordable to Cuba.
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    Osolomia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 12:19 PM
    Response to Reply #28
    39. Helms-Burton forbids Pernod-Ricard from distributing Havana Club rum in US

    It also forbids it from distributing in the USA a Glenfiddich scotch made in Scotland because it was aged in old Cuban rum barrels.

    Yet you claim that the Helms-Burton Act has “no punch whatsoever”! That’s quite the contradiction don’t you think?

    With so much pretzel logic like this from progressive* Democrats* who ought to know better by now then no wonder Americans are still trade and travel banned for many more years to come! What a national disgrace!
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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 09:30 PM
    Response to Reply #11
    19. Actually it's well documented that the embargo has been destructive
    to the Cuban population. The only way to avoid knowing this, or admitting it, is to refuse to read all the information available on the subject. I've seen this pattern before in a lot of Cuban "exile" right-wingers. Only right-wingers actually pretend otherwise, as they would prefer the vicious right-wing butthead Batista still allowed his corrupt, slimey cronies to control Cuba.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`


    (snip) Questions about the negative effects of the embargo on the Cuban people have largely been lost behind front-page trade dispute issues. Various health organizations as well as religious based organizations, such as Pastors for Peace, SPAN/Shoestrings and Grace, are responsible for keeping health issues on the agenda.

    These organizations note that a combination of losing favorable trading relations with the former Soviet Union and a tightened U.S. embargo has caused a severe shortage of food and medical supplies in Cuba.

    According to the March 1997 American Association for World Health report, U.S. anti-Cuba legislation has increased malnutrition, restricted Cuba's access to water treatment chemicals, and reduced availability of medicines, medical equipment and medical information. The Report states that "because most major new drugs are developed by U.S. pharmaceuticals, Cuban officials have access to less than 50 percent of new medicines available to the world market." Ironically, the embargo also has a negative effect on U.S. citizens as it denies them access to numerous Cuban medical advances, including a meningitis B vaccine and an AIDS vaccine currently being researched.

    Compared to recent embargoes, the restrictions imposed on Cuba seem excessive. Past embargoes targeting Iran, Libya, South Africa, Nicaragua, and Iraq have not been extended to include an outright ban on the sale of food. Even fewer embargoes have introduced similar levels of restrictions on the sale of medical supplies, denying ordinary citizens access to life saving machines and medical supplies. The American Association for World Health states that the "embargo appears to violate the most basic international charters and conventions governing human rights, including the United Nations charter, the charter of the Organization of American States, and the articles of the Geneva Convention governing the treatment of civilians during wartime."

    Health officials from the World Federation of Public Health Association explain that since the implementation of the 1992 Cuban Democracy Act, Cuba has experienced an increase in infectious diseases, iron deficiency anemia among children and pregnant women, and a considerable rise in the number of low birth-weight babies. A widespread increase in the level of nutritional deficiencies among the Cuban population has also been attributed to the embargo and related problems in importing food supplies. (snip/...)

    http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/97-3/issue13/cuba.html

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    Osolomia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 02:52 PM
    Response to Reply #11
    40. Here's another of many examples of the effect of the USA’s embargo

    Visa trouble hinders Gulf studies
    By Icess Fernandez Caller-Times
    October 17, 2003

    The work of the Harte Research Institute for Gulf of Mexico Studies brought scientists to Corpus Christi from different parts of the world on Wednesday, but the delegation from Cuba was absent.

    … Three Cuban scientists were invited. But the visas for Pedro Alcolado, Gaspar Gonzalez, and Manolo Ortiz Touzet were denied or delayed.

    … The United States Interest Section in Havana, Cuba, denied or delayed the visas based on either background checks or interviews, said Kelly Shannon, spokesperson for the bureau of consular affairs for the U.S. State Department. The Interest Section is the equivalent of an embassy in Cuba, where the United States does not maintain an embassy because of its strained relationship with that country.

    …. "All visa applicants are required to demonstrate that they intend to return to their home country," she said. "All nationals of those countries that sponsor terror must have an interagency background check. All visas are reviewed on a case by case basis."

    This hasn't been the first time visas were denied to Cubans coming in to the country for events. In August, visas were denied for three Cuban musicians nominated for Latin Grammy awards.

    … "Cuba brings to the table some of the best scientists. They bring dedication and willingness to collaborate," he said. "My hope is that the situation improves. Every visa that is denied or delayed is hurting our program."

    More…
    http://www.caller.com/ccct/local_news/article/0,1641,CCCT_811_2354945,00.html

    Of course if these Cuban scientists and musicians "defected" then the USA would immediately welcome them with open arms and all kinds of preferential treatment don't you think?
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    Osolomia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 08:25 PM
    Response to Original message
    12. DUhers still clinging to their Cold War fantasies and pretzel logic eh!

    With little opposition as usual. What a disgrace!

    Travel banned Americans are the only people on the planet who spew such lies and bullshit about Cuba and swallow it no questions asked. Everyone else on the planet recognizes such “defectors” for the economic migrants like everyone else that they really are and treat them as such.

    It’s not the politics of Cuba that led them to “defect” but the politics of the USA that accords them preferential treatment with the help of the bigoted hatemongers who insist on doing so while ignoring the facts to this day.

    Btw, the people of Cuba are free to apply for immigration to another country, the USA accepts 20,000 such applicants each year. Why didn’t the “defectors” apply like everyone else in the world is required to do? Because stupid Americans still buy this bigoted bullshit!
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    dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 09:09 PM
    Response to Reply #12
    16. Oh, so its AMERICA'S fault these people want to defect
    Well, it's good to see the "blame America first" crowd is present. No discussion of Cuba would be complete without them.
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    Osolomia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 10:08 PM
    Response to Reply #16
    21. Nonsense. They are NOT “defectors” and everyone on the planet knows it

    Just ask the INS. Ask your CongressCritters. Ask anyone.

    Everyone except Bush’s paid political propagandists knows that the Cubans who choose to immigrate to the USA are no different than any other nationality that choose to migrate. There is absolutely no justification for the preferential treatment given to the Cubans.

    They are not political defectors or refugees by any standard of the definition. If they were then such “exiles” would not be freely traveling back to Castro’s Cuba by the hundreds of thousands each year now would they?

    If there’s an iota of truth to the right wing propagandists around here then why aren’t the returning “exiles” in jail, why isn’t Oswaldo Paya in jail?

    Duers ought to know to check it out before spewing Otto Reich’s propaganda no questions asked don’t you think?

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    joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 03:52 AM
    Response to Reply #21
    24. Well, to play devils advocate.
    One argument is that exiles, since they're so profitable to the Cuban society, aren't banned, because that would eat into the income of the economy.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 08:52 AM
    Response to Reply #24
    29. Josh, its not exclusive to Cubans
    "One argument is that exiles, since they're so profitable to the Cuban society, aren't banned, because that would eat into the income of the economy."


    This is not exclusive to Cubans. Almost all immigrants from the Caribbean and the Latin Americas send money back to their home country - to their families in need.


    Interesting, isn't it, that the over one billion dollars of remittances that Cubans in Miami send to Cuba actually serves to prop up the system of government in Cuba.

    Bush has just announced a new policy that would increase allowable remittances, made by Cubans in the US, BY A FACTOR OF TEN TIMES.

    Bush policy now wants to pour ten billion US dollars into Cuba's economy (via Cuban-American remittances).


    The US's threatening posturing coupled with the increased supply of US dollars will only serve to further support for President Castro and further entrench socialism.


    Keeping Castro "propped up" is in the best interest of the so called anti Castro elements (the hundreds of US taxpayer supported "free Cuba" foundations in S Florida as well as the politicians, R+D, who pander to the "exiles" with anti Castro rhetoric) who all profiteer off of the decades old standoff between Cuba and the US - at US taxpayer expense.
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    Osolomia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 10:48 AM
    Response to Reply #24
    35. Good grief, is pretzel logic the best Dems can do?
    Edited on Fri Oct-17-03 10:52 AM by Osolomia
    ” One argument is that exiles, since they're so profitable to the Cuban society, aren't banned, because that would eat into the income of the economy."

    WTF do you think is the purpose of the USA’s economic embargo against Cuba to this day?

    On the one hand you’re trying to economically cripple the island and that’s why you’re travel banned to this day, but on the other hand you say the Cuban “defectors” deserve preferential treatment so they can support the Cuban economy!

    Why can’t the “defectors” legally immigrate like everyone else is required to do and still support their families in Cuba eh? Why is it okay for the “exiles” to spend all the money they want in Cuba making them Cuba’s largest single source of revenue for several years now but it’s not okay for an American-American to spend so much as a nickel there to this day?
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 06:10 PM
    Response to Reply #35
    41. A kickass post, Osolomia
    "On the one hand you’re trying to economically cripple the island and that’s why you’re travel banned to this day, but on the other hand you say the Cuban “defectors” deserve preferential treatment so they can support the Cuban economy!

    Why can’t the “defectors” legally immigrate like everyone else is required to do and still support their families in Cuba eh? Why is it okay for the “exiles” to spend all the money they want in Cuba making them Cuba’s largest single source of revenue for several years now but it’s not okay for an American-American to spend so much as a nickel there to this day?
    "



    Fuckin eh! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Clear, crisp, and to the point.


    Thanx, Osolo
    :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:
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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 09:15 PM
    Response to Original message
    17. Such an odd direction the pResident's taking
    U.S. tightens inspections of flights to Cuba



    WASHINGTON, Oct. 16 — U.S. authorities have stepped up inspections of charter flights to Cuba out of Miami, and plan to do the same at other airports, following a toughening of U.S. policy toward the island, a top official said on Thursday. (snip)

    (snip) ''Already, in response to the president's announcement, Customs and Border Protection inspectors have stepped up their efforts by examining nearly all of the charter flights departing from Miami,'' said Richard Newcomb, Treasury's director of the Office of Foreign Assets Control, or OFAC.

    The United States has allowed charter flights out of Miami since 1998, mostly for Cuban Americans wanting to visit relatives on the Caribbean island.

    Travel to Cuba is illegal for most other Americans, but tens of thousands visit the island every year, many by going through countries like Mexico and Canada. (snip/...)

    http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters10-16-150837.asp?reg=AMERICAS

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    Jorje Bzsch Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 09:55 PM
    Response to Reply #17
    20. only cuban are welcome as refugees here...
    No Other Latinos please ..We are americans..
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    Osolomia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 10:25 PM
    Response to Reply #17
    22. Whow! So Bush is enforcing US law on Miami’s “exiles” too?

    What a progressive idea, who’d a thunk!

    Gotta wonder what Gore and Lieberman would have done.
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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 02:50 AM
    Response to Original message
    23. Cuban ballet brings its charisma to the US
    Cuban ballet brings its charisma to the US

    Dancers' technical prowess on view this week

    By Christie Taylor | Special to The Christian Science Monitor

    Cuban ballet dancers have brought their fiery passion and Russian-based technique to American audiences for decades, despite political tensions between the two countries.
    That tradition continues this week when the Ballet Nacional de Cuba launches an American tour - its first since November 2001 - and Cuban superstar Jose Manuel Carreño debuts with the Boston Ballet in "Don Quixote."

    Prima ballerina assoluta Alicia Alonso set the stage for Cubans dancing in the US in the late 1930s. She performed with Ballet Caravan, the predecessor of the New York City Ballet. Now she is general director and choreographer for the Ballet Nacional.

    Performing abroad is a liberty that Cuban dancers enjoy today largely because of the high standard Alonso has set and her devotion to her native land. Dancers are given elite status in Cuba, and the government proudly sends them abroad as cultural assets, despite economic embargoes and travel restrictions. (snip/...)

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1017/p17s01-almp.html

    Question:

    Is this the Ballet Nacional de Cuba, or is it the D.U. Dancers?











    http://www.balletcuba.cu/ingles/defaulting.htm
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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 05:06 AM
    Response to Reply #23
    25. No one who has ever heard of Alicia Alonso, or seen her dancing
    could imagine she's partially blind. What an amazing person!



    Studied in the U.S. prior to the Revolution, ran Ballet Nacional de Cuba after. Designated one of Cuba's heroines. Known world-wide, as is her ballet.

    Here's a page showing the principal dancers:
    http://www.cubaescena.cult.cu/biog.html

    By the way, the newspaper, El Nuevo, which interviewed the two dancers, is considered a propaganda organ of the Miami Herald, written for Miami's "exile" population.

    It's writing is so distorted, a local Cuban "exile" writes weekly colums addressing Nuevo's misinformation: stories either being deliberately overlooked, or totally misrepresented for right-wing purposes. This is an ongoing practice with El Nuevo. God help the Cuban readers who can't also read English!

    If you're interested in any of this, you'll find fascinating material in any internet search.


    ~Viva Alicia~


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