Patriot Act Misunderstood, Senators Say (Biden, Feinstein, & Others)

Patriot Act Misunderstood, Senators Say
Complaints About Civil Liberties Go Beyond Legislation's Reach, Some Insist

By Susan Schmidt
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 22, 2003; Page A04


Democratic and Republican lawmakers said yesterday that the USA Patriot Act has drawn unmerited criticism from civil libertarians at both ends of the political spectrum who have targeted it with complaints over unrelated issues.

Even as some members of the Senate Judiciary Committee said they want to see elements of the Patriot Act modified, others contended that some of the attacks on the anti-terrorism legislation have been unfair. The act, they said, has been inaccurately cited for harsh treatment of detainees in the months after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and President Bush's designation of some terrorism suspects as enemy combatants.

Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. (D-Del.), speaking at the first of several oversight hearings on terrorism legislation, called criticism of the Patriot Act "ill-informed and overblown" and commended prosecutors' work in some terrorism cases.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) mounted a strong defense of the Patriot Act, saying she believes there is "substantial uncertainty and perhaps some ignorance about what this bill actually does do and how it has been employed." Panel Chairman Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) said terrorism legislation has been misrepresented "by extremists on both ends who seem to be dominating the debate in the media today."

more.............

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61591-2003Oct21.html

Dianne Feinstein :grr:

Why am I thinking that 99% of the intellegence in the Senate vanished when Wellstone was murdered?

After voting for the Iraq Resolution, the Abortion vote, and now defending the Patriot Act, anyone who calls (many) of this current crop of Democrats Pink-Tutus (or worse) is right on target in my book.

This is just unbelievable. :mad:

I will NOT tolerate this kind of insane, pro-fascist thinking from my so-called Senator!

What a surprise - her husband owns lots of stock in defense contractors, and she's in favor of both endless war and Asscrotch's very own Enabling Act.

Get the hell out of DC, you nutcase!

Please please retire Feinstein.

She is CFR people. I have tried to write to her. I always get back her form letter responses thanking me for my concern, but politely telling me she will do what the hell she wants and stay out of her senate. She is a facist bitch and tows the line for the elites.

She is beholden to them in mind, soul and body.

A prostitute to the rich corporate interests (SHAMEFUL)

i voted for her in every other election, but she will NOT get my vote again!

don't you? ;-)

I worked on the Gore campaign here in California and they sent some of us to South LA, which was a great experience and part of the reason was getting to work with Maxine. Even though she had won hands down in her district, she was out there in the parking lot and on the streets with us and her bullhorn. She wasnt above doing anything - she just did it.

The woman is the definition of a true Dem. She has earned where she is today, and few deserve their position like she does.

or another Republican in the next election or do you feel that some kind of recall action is called for in advance of the next election?

If you have neither of these alternatives in mind, what do you propose (understanding that no Democrat is going to successfully run against an incumbent Democratic Senator)?

... why can't anybody in California do it?

progressive person w/ a voice 2 run against her in the primary. i am soooo fed up w/ her/ Other dems complain about her as well. Time 2 retire dearie.

None of this spin makes one bit of difference. That facist piece of trash should never have reached a vote in the first place. And now that it's there, it should be removed immediately.

NT!

to not vote for the 'Unpatriotic Act' was the honorable Senator Feingold!

"Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.), the only member of the Senate to vote against the Patriot Act, said he supports "90 percent" of its provisions and believes the rest are "fixable." He, Durbin and other Senate liberals have joined forces with conservatives, including Sen. Larry E. Craig (R-Idaho), in promoting modest changes to several provisions of the law, making it more difficult, for example, for investigators to obtain records from libraries and booksellers."

---

90%??? And the rest is fixable? Sigh.... Now I wish I hadn't read the news before I went to bed tonight.

I had to turn off the Senate earlier today I thought I was going to bust a vain listening to Santorum. I was actually screaming at the tv and I won't say what else let's just say it wasn't nice at all. :evilgrin:
I so want to get him out of the Senate he's not worthy. I can't stand to look at that smug thug! Sorry, kinda off subject there.

What's it going to take, Kehphra? I just don't know. I don't wish evil on people but it's as if the worst is going to have to happen before enough people will wake up and fight these fascists.

Waaa, I had really put Feingold up there thinking he was on the side of the people and the constitution....... foolish me again! :(

But I appreciate the good thoughts.

:hi:

for me my nightmares haven't stopped since the selection. I've had all kinds of weird nightmares :tinfoilhat: since this whole mess started as a matter of fact the Unpatriotic Act really has caused me some serious nightmares.......Think I can sue em'? ;)
Ah, what I would do to have those fun dreams where I'm flying. Doesn't look like I'm going to have any of those fun dreams any time soon.:(

BTW, If anyone deserves a good nights sleep it's you!

If you are going to end up with Democratic leaders in Congress that will block any attempt to repeal the PATRIOT Act?

We must get rid of both of them!

We the people need to take back all of our government.

specifically? What parts of the constitution do they violate? I don't dispute that you may be right but I'd like to see some specificity. the Patriot Act is a very large piece of legislation. there is no doubt that at least some of it is, in fact, constitutional. Which part(s) do you feel aren't and why?

We must be,or else we'd support it? How about we understand it perfectly well and it scares us half to death!!!? These arrogant bastard congresscritters are starting to get on my last nerve now.:mad:

NOT smarter than a many DU'er I've read around here. I've read DU'ers that could debate circles around the pukes and most of the Democrats. I could call names but there are so many here and I'd hate to leave anyone out! I swear, I think there are some DU'ers that would pound some of those guys into the ground! Whew! and that's without a staff! You hear that you elitist sounding Senators?? Do you?? :grr:

Especially by the disappeared, the kidnapped, the tortured, and their families, friends, and those who have yet to be seized.

they didn't read it before voting on it and I'd bet they have not yet

done so

;)

It is the Senators that do not understand what they are voting for... Shit, they probably voted with Bush for the Iraq War? Need anymore prove of their credibility?

We talked about it in class today. Many of my students work P-T jobs and talked about some of the bizarre things that we now have to do as a result. It's hard, for example, for some students from out of the country to get money from their parents. Librarians are affected by this and a whole slew of other things that I can't recall off the top of my head. In short, it makes life difficult for the average American and that doesn't even begin to touch the outrage of what they've done to our civil rights. I loathe these people from the bottom of my heart.



Cher

Perhaps they'd like to stick up for the fucking Bill of Rights someday?

Nah.

flies to whatever shoulder is the highest and sits there whistling.

If the shoulder moves, he's off to the next sunny spot.

You can depend on Joe! Him and Chris Matthews, total lunatics.
Jeez, I'm disgusted with Democrats today...

it seems like the Democratic Party have gone back in the last two or three weeks to the Democratic Party we all knew and hated in late 2002 and in the run up to the Iraq invaison. Pre Dean.

It's this sort of salute the flag, show how patriotic we are stuff all over again.

I hope this isn't because there is a invaison of Syria in the works that they know about but are not telling us about.

NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO PARTIES! THEY ARE BOTH FOR the Iraqi war (and the spending of billions for perpetual war), for oil, for corporations, for privatization, for the diminished rights of U.S. citizens and the undermining of democracy, haven't done diddle about the voting machine fraud situation, etc. Etc. ETC.!!!

When will people get a clue? The system is broken. We as a people either take a stand, or turn over all decisions to the power brokers of the elite. That's it.

How many pages was that legislation?
How many read it before they voted on it?

even more than most of the public does. They need to spend less time in DC and more time in their states. They need to get out of the city of incestuous amplification (amplification through news media of like-minded, mind-numbing group think, where nary a serious critique is made.)

If they really asking us to give up our freedoms forever rather than to let the thing sunset, then they really need to give us an accounting of how "effective" it has been, and whether or not the provisions have been used, as is reported, in prosecutions that have nothing to do with the "war on terrorism".

It is as if we have reentered the McCarthy era in DC, or the early civil rights era in some of the Southern States where state government organizations (recall info. divulged a few years ago from Mississippi) were "legitimately" used to spy on and monitor citizens, with little or no oversight to the accuracy of such information, and which information could then be used to "trump up charges" against some citizens to silence them and force compliance through fear of others.

One can almost (ALMOST) forgive members of congress for voting for the illconceived patriot act given the high level of fear in post 911 Washington and throughout the country and given the rapid speed at which "a solution" was sought by much of the population. But those conditions are not in place now.

With this railroading, and now joint justification of eroding of our constitutional system, one has to wonder... are we going to emerge from this era with our system intact? Or are the folks in DC going to keep moving in more and more draconian ways, continue taking more of our money to be redistributed to huge corporations, keep draining our jobs so we have less economic independence (as a citizenry), keep concentrating media and allowing it to become more and more of an arm of the state (in terms of tailored propoganda), and keep eroding the ability of the state to provide basic esssential services? How are we to provide this "great beacon of hope" of freedom and democracy if our policies slowly work to turn our system into an economically divided society where only the most wealthy live with freedom and economic security (and access to courts, to health care, to police and fire protection, etc.)? At what point would law enforcement cease being used to keep us safe and instead act more to police us to keep us "in line"? Why as I write this am I envisioning those "great beacon of hope and freedom" countries of central and south America? Folks forget that big shifts and transformations in history happen very slowly over a long period of time. What I describe above is not likely to happen overnight, in a year, or even through a couple of election cycles. It happens through changing basic institutions, eroding basic rights, propogandizing the public to where blind nationalism supercedes a commitment to our basic rights as citizens of a democracy.

I think the most dangerous thing that has happened since 911, was the conferring by many of some kind of 'infallability' to W and his government through a belief that "W was chosen by God..." to lead us through this, and a fear in DC by many that so much of the population believes this, that any kind of opposition will be viewed by many voters as 'acting against God...' This allows a naive acceptance of many of the huge institutional changes being pushed by this administration without the level of scrutiny necessary to keep asking: does this change the nature of our entire system?

While all of this is going on, the senate is debating (or did they do the deed) more "tort reform" in the form of derailing the ability to bring class-action suits. Alone not a bad thing. But taken collectively we seem to be stripping the rights (and the right of redress) of individual citizens and conferring more and more rights to corporations and to the state. I have always avoided the use of the term fascism, as it connotes a level of totalitarianism that is not present in this country. But the slow blending of state and corporate interests at the direct erosion of citizen interests and rights is worrisome. Especially when one looks to the blind acceptance of changes in institutions that could lead to more and more totalitarian rule (Patriot Act, Home Land Security, the Propoganda arm of the Pentagon, the whole Total Awareness related projects).

I am loathe to ask if this really is the beginning of the end for our more than 200 year experiment.

I take great hope in the example of various European countries that have survived dark periods of erosions of citizen rights in the last century, but that have emerged intact (but in some cases with GREAT costs along the way).

Let these rants, please, just be rants of someone who hasn't gotten enough sleep and is viewing things in an overalarmist way (as I generally do not.)

cuts.

They really do want to kill our economy, our governmental institutions, provide NO support for citizens, what will be funded in the end? Certainly not Social Security (watch - over time it will move from 'voluntary' investment of part of the amount, to turning back the entire 'payroll tax' portion and telling people on the very low end of the income bracket that with their "savings" - it is their SOLE responsibility to do all of the investing (but of course with few and fewer protections on investments due to divestment of FDIC, SEC, etc - there will be NO transparency to help people know WHERE to save, and the debt cycles will be so great on individuals that the "savings" will go to pay off existing credit and housing debt leaving NO savings but the government will insist... it was PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY... and its YOUR OWN FAULT.)

So what will be funded? Only programs that can be fully privatized and thus basically serve as corporate welfare to campaign funders, and police and military enforcement.

I sound alarmist?

How the hell is our country to survive with the level of governmental debt being foisted upon us?

Heck the IMF is already warning us about our horrendous fiscal condition - something I can not recall EVER being done (given warning) to an industrialized nation.

The really odd thing, is that these folks are going to make things so awful by making investing in the debt (re: US Treasuries) that has an escalated reliance on FOREIGN INVESTORS to keep feeding it (this past year, I believe, more than 50% of debt/treasuries was bought by foreign investors)... while making the investment shakier and shakier (will a country with such HUGE debt responsibility be able to pay back the obligations?) such that buyers will become less and less enthusiastic about buying it.

What happens then?

...they don't need to establish probable cause to search anything, your home, your business, your private accounts, etc. All they have to do is say that an investigation is terrorism related and the magistrate is to sign. It is a perfunctory requirement which undermines the power of an independent judiciary and the 4th Amendment.

These so called representatives of the people passed this unconstitutional act without even reading it as they stampeded in abject fear.

They are still cowering before the dictator.

really, who's surprised anymore? :boring:

After the chimp gets every dollar he demanded to enrich his friends through the bloody invasion of Iraq and the extreme right victory yesterday on their war on women, now this. I'm convinced, its no longer a fight between rethugs and Democrats. Its Us vs. Them, the People against the corporations and their Washington puppets. With a few notable exceptions their is NO opposition only an extremist juggernaut bent on running this Country into the ground and stealing every last cent out of the citizens to further stuff their pockets. The media serves them, the "voting" machines serve them, and just about every corrupt politician serves them. Nothing short of a complete cleaning of the "house" will return government back to what the founders had in mind, a government that represents and serves the People NOT the other way around. I'm sick :puke:!

NT!

in the immediate aftermath of their respective revolutions?

Unfortunately, I understand COMPLETELY now.

We are fast approaching a very dangerous historical impasse in our beloved country.

What will happen before I leave the bounds of this eartly plane, I deeply fear.

I just hope it is swift - like tearing off a band-aid. It hurts like hell, but to do it slowly is even worse.

How sad we have come so low just siz months after the Selection and now 2 more years.

Very sad.

.....about this *ACT*????? *I* WAS LISTENING...I HEARD IT HIM TELL IT LIKE IT IS...WHAT THE FUCK IS THEIR PROBLEM...guess the mind control :tinfoilhat: shit I've heard about must be true 'cos the supposed more rational side seems to have fallen asleep along with the sheep :evilfrown:

they know EXACTLY what they are doing. NO more excuses from me about the "Democratic" politicians. Yes, I will vote against chimp whomever that will be, but blind allegiance NEVER! We've got a long way to go before a REAL opposition party exists in this Country and it will probably have to be built from the ground up after profound suffering by the People and the Planet. Sad but true.

generally having a wife who understands plenty

I'm so sick of these DINOs assisting in the destruction of our country. Every one of them are fascists...which, of course is why they need the patriot act. We now know what they have done to us.

I didn't like the b*tch then, and I don't like her now!

If Biden and Feinstein are comfortable giving such power to the federal government, not to mention giving it to John Ashcroft, perhaps they should replace the "D" after their names with a well-deserved swastika.

Is there any possible bright spot to be found here?

...voting it into law, I think it's pretty hilarious that they're censuring others for criticizing it without fully understanding it.

No, not 'hilarious'--oh, what's the word....

'Nauseating,' that's right.

Nice to see the DLC lapdogs helping W out with one of his pet election campaign projects. Apparently he can rely on eager Dem support for his big PR effort on behalf of the Act.

Saw a bumpersticker yesterday: "What this country needs is a 2nd political party."

So true, so true.

It is going to take a long time to repair the broken Democratic Party.

There are so many people that need to be sent packing.

We need a revolution like the Republicans had in 1994. We need to throw out so many pathetic Democrats.

The system makes them (both sides) whore for money to finance their re-election campaigns. And they're honest politicians, meaning that they stay bought. This means that the people will always be subservient to the corporation, and I don't think that's what the founding fathers had in mind when they created the constitution.

I would also argue that the word "broken" is inappropriate here. The system is not broken as such. The system operates exactly as it was designed: to allow those that control the money to control the system.

I have given up trying to find a way out of the situation, and the only solution I see is to let the system collapse of it's own weight. The following turmoil and anger will assure that the people will never again allow this to happen. As a bonus, it will also mean the complete destruction of the republican party of today.

But then I've always bee a pollyanna.

The act, they said, has been inaccurately cited for harsh treatment of detainees in the months after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and President (sic) Bush's designation of some terrorism suspects as enemy combatants.

True, the Patriot Act is not responsible for all the violations of civil liberties and international law committed by the junta since September 11. However, that is a red herring. The question is: Does it permit any? The answer is that it does.

The act, passed six weeks after the Sept.11 attacks, enhanced the FBI's powers in terrorism probes, most significantly by giving the agency access to intelligence information that was previously off-limits to criminal investigators. The act also provided broader power to conduct searches and tap cell phones.
In July, the House voted to suspend funding for "sneak-and-peek" searches, in which investigators do not immediately notify the subject that a search has been conducted. But Feinstein argued yesterday in favor of the provision, saying it merely codifies, and even narrows, investigative authority already established in drug and organized crime case law.

Suspending the "sneak-and-peek" provision is a step in the right direction. For Senator Feinstein to speak positively of the provision does her no merit.

Controversy has swirled over another section of the law that allows investigators to obtain medical, business and library records in terrorism investigations without notifying subjects. Last month, Ashcroft disclosed that the provision has never been used and said the law's critics had constructed "castles in the air built on misrepresentation; supported by unfounded fear; held aloft by hysteria."

If Mr. Ashcroft is not using powers granted him under the Patriot Act, why is he seeking to expand them? Does he consider the powers he is not using inadequate? If that sounds like nonsense, it is because it is.

What we have here is an illegitimate regime that came to power through electoral fraud and judicial manipulation. This same regime has given the keys to the national treasury to cronies and goes to war justified by false reasons in order to further enrich those same cronies. It is a regime that is both illegal and crooked. Add the repressive, police state measures and what we have is a full blown banana republic. The Bush administration -- junta is a more accurate word -- stands outside the traditions of American government and is a threat to democratic institutions.

It is true that the Patriot is not responsible for all the abuses of the Bush junta. However, it provides legal justification for some of them. It would make Americans far safer if those legal justifications were removed.

There is only one correct position for a Senator or Congressman to take in regards to the Patriot Act: Repeal it! No truly patriotic American can support the Patriot Act or the junta that spawned it.

Do I make myself clear, Senator Feinstein? Senator Biden?

Do you mind if I use some of your quotes?

!!

I'll PM you before I use them.

Well said!

...and strongly advised that it not be passed. He not only was the ONLY senator to read the legislation, he was also the ONLY senator to vote against it.

Byrd may be old, and he may be in failing health, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with his reading skills or his ability to think.

I am personally surprised and greatly disappointed that Biden and Feinstein would publicly support any part of the Patriot Act.

And did anyone catch the reporter's name...one of the most vocal of the media vigilantes that tried to get Clinton removed from office. She is a proven liar and a fraud.

Feingold was the one who had it right.

It shames the Senate that the egregious piece of trash passed 98-1.

Take it.

Play along.

We have no pols working for us anymore.

Well, since our elected officials have not been doing their job, it falls to the grass roots organizers to right the wrongs...

I'm proud to report that the City of Durham passed an anti-Patriot act resolution on Monday Oct 22, 2003 (joining 190 other municipalities including the County of Durham and 3 states). We've been working really hard to get this passed, and I applaud our local government officials for standing up for the constitutional rights of the residents of Durham.

Why now? And why so bi-partisan? Are they "preparing" us for a renewal--or expansion--of the act?


rocknation

and who all knows what other crap in the works. There must be a whole contingent of people devoted to making up catchy acronyms.

might as well get ready for the Gulags.

Chattel workers are they, for the GOP will drive them into the ground with a gleeful smile.

When will Dems GET THE MSG? Either you are with us (Dems) OR you are against us (Reps).

I asked when can we expect to see Senator Feinstein and Biden joining John Ashcroft on his Patriot Act tour across America.

I also mentioned that if she and Senator Biden feel they know better than the over 150 cities who have signed Anti-Patriot Act legislation, then perhaps they may want to READ the Patriot Act, since apparently they had not even done so before they signed it.

I would encourage you to give our esteemed leaders a call as well.

:)

gave an intern an earful :-)

...it's much WORSE than it seems!

It's just that there are a lot of cowards who are having trouble making a convincing case for the travesty of their votes. We "understand" what the Patriot Act is quite well. We just don't buy their lame excuses for justifying it.

No misunderstanding whatsover. Nice try, Joe Biden. Now go back to your staff and try to come up with some better bullshit than this.

Thank you.

he's so arrogant and secretive, it's very difficult to agree to give him any more power.

And the name of the act is awful and Orwellian.

I think it's going to be a hard sell, at least with Ashcroft as the face of it.

They've turned her loose to write real stories?

I wouldn't trust a word she writes.