Global Meltdown

Massive loss of Arctic ice means global warming is now past the point of no return, say scientists

A record loss of sea ice in the Arctic this summer has convinced scientists that the northern hemisphere may have crossed a critical threshold beyond which the climate may never recover. Scientists fear that the Arctic has now entered an irreversible phase of warming which will accelerate the loss of the polar sea ice that has helped to keep the climate stable for thousands of years.

They believe global warming is melting Arctic ice so rapidly that the region is beginning to absorb more heat from the sun, causing the ice to melt still further and so reinforcing a vicious cycle of melting and heating. The greatest fear is that the Arctic has reached a "tipping point" beyond which nothing can reverse the continual loss of sea ice and with it the massive land glaciers of Greenland, which will raise sea levels dramatically.

Satellites monitoring the Arctic have found that the extent of the sea ice this August has reached its lowest monthly point on record, dipping an unprecedented 18.2 per cent below the long-term average. Experts believe that such a loss of Arctic sea ice in summer has not occurred in hundreds and possibly thousands of years. It is the fourth year in a row that the sea ice in August has fallen below the monthly downward trend - a clear sign that melting has accelerated.

Scientists are now preparing to report a record loss of Arctic sea ice for September, when the surface area covered by the ice traditionally reaches its minimum extent at the end of the summer melting period. Sea ice naturally melts in summer and reforms in winter but for the first time on record this annual rebound did not occur last winter when the ice of the Arctic failed to recover significantly. Arctic specialists at the US National Snow and Ice Data Centre at Colorado University, who have documented the gradual loss of polar sea ice since 1978, believe that a more dramatic melt began about four years ago.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article312997.ece

Boat builders needed. NOW!

:freak:

‘Planet Earth stands on the cusp of disaster and people should no longer take it for granted that their children and grandchildren will survive in the environmentally degraded world of the 21st century.’ So said Britain’s Independent newspaper in reporting on the Millennium Ecosystem Assessment, released at the end of March.

Even as a kid, I could look at capitalism and see this was the inevitable result.




Cher

and also all the other environmental disasters going on in the world has to be positively crazy to have children. Between overpopulation, the energy crisis that will be hitting very soon, etc., the human race is set for extinction or something of very very reduced numbers. WHAT WE ARE DOING IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.

:sarcasm:

oh well. We had a good run.

My kids haven't.

And I have no kids. This is serious, folks.

But you know what.

We have a leader that does not give a damn.

it's either this or nuclear war, bio-war or we collapse the planet trying to find the mass of the higgs boson.




(warning - lexx reference)

and I don't reget having them, no mater what happens.

In terms of years, the cockroach has done far better.

In terms of good done - the Iraq war? Africa? New Orleans?

I'd resort to the teacher's staple formula: Could have done much better.

considering what we had to work with we didn't do so bad.

Hmmmm...

someone should notify the Dutch, Bangladeshis, Floridians...and?

The bad news: Billions of people live in the areas that *WILL* be
flooded in a worst-case scenario. And NOLA will be under more water
than even Halliburton can levee-off.

Tesha

eom

Take it from someone who's been watching ice melt for 40+ springtimes. Once it starts melting, it starts melting faster, then much faster.

The speed of several of the largest glaciers in Greenland doubled between 1992 and 2004. It will probably double again in half the time.

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2005/02/01/global_warming_methane_could_be_far_worse_than_carbon_dioxide.htm

People don't realize how lucky we are to have made it this far. When CFCs were first used as a coolant, bad as they have turned out to be, in one way they saved our lives. There was an alternative chemical being considered at the time, and it was not a knowlege of environmental effects that led industry to reject it. I don't remember what it was, but according to an article I read about it in The Australian New Scientist, it would have destroyed life on Earth in a very short time.

At least we are still here to try to find an answer. It's just a pity your country and mine (Australia) are both run by morans who believe their money will ensure their safety and have proved they can relax and enjoy themselves completely undisturbed by either the suffering they infict on others or the deaths they fail to prevent.

Don't all the cows produce lots of methane? Bet that isn't included in a lot of warming models either.


http://archives.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/07/21/cow.methane.enn/
http://agnews.tamu.edu/stories/ANSC/methane.htm

but some recent research suggests its share of the warming effect may be more than previously thought, because of the interaction with other chemicals in the atmosphere. In some ways that's actually good, because cattle use isn't going to increase in India, unlike oil.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/methane.html

Rice paddies in particular.

http://www.ghgonline.org/methanerice.htm

The bromine contained in this version of spray-can propellants would have been far, far more persistent than the CFCs industries eventually selected.

The reason for CFCs over BFCs? They were marginally less expensive.

these currents are started by cold arctic water sinking, when they stop sinking they stop circulating. Then what? Ice Age. The planet wants to be in balance it will return there by it's own means. Ice Age means very little inhabitable land area left for people and crops.

KL

in office. Thanks all you flag waving idiots out there. Hope you know how to convert that flag to a sail. You're gonna need it. :( :( :(

damn, katrina is probably going to end up looking like a small prelude, I think we are at this point out of known territory. All talk of "oh this is how weather works, see, cause that's they way it's been..." is over, no one knows what's going to come of this.

about the environment now. :(

they've already SAID that they don't care.

is greed and hate. (To them these are GOOD things.)

And that is where we will see most of the immediate problems occur with water levels rising as much as twenty feet. Red States really don't give a damn anyway because it is all God's will.

Please get to Texas and help us wrestle our state back from religious nuts and kooks.

all moving to South Carolina?

There will be more than just sea level rise. With the glacial melts the atlantic conveyor current will stop, meaning the main contributer to our temperate climate will be gone. Expect europe and the northeast to freeze, and what changes the midwest will see is anyone's guess at this point, but the concensus seems to be that agriculture will no longer be viable.

So global warming means not just sea level rise, but climate change all over the earth. Thank you George. All republicans in this administration must be charged with crimes against humanity. Not to mention the animals.

idiots believe this crap.

How long can you tread water?

I was going to formulate a question based on something like logic. But I realized that people only change when there is a crisis. And since noone knows exactly what is going to happen, we will continue doing as we're doing, until different energy conversions come to market. But by that time, it will be too late. In fact, it's already too late. So my question is just "How long?".

People need to wake up and realize that being a spiritual, caring person has nothing to do with flag waving and bible thumping. No wonder evangelicals believe so strongly in Revelations - their stupidity is going to cause it! :mad:

We can still possibly minimize the damage - but oh no wait, that might require the help of those damn atheist liberal scientists. I'd rather die. :sarcasm:

While I was fortunate enough not to have to find out at the time, it remains a valid question.

The answer being "as long as it takes."

So many weird things have happened in the last four to five years. Maybe, it's just a "son" spot.

it accelerated at that point. We're all to blame for this one.

:shrug:

I wonder how this will progress?

coastal areas. I live on the north shore of Lake Superior. What effect will melting have on the inland lakes? Any guesses?

concern. Perhaps you saw "Day After Tomorrow"?

The Earth is a complex and dynamic geological system that must maintain certain balances in order for life to exist. If it gets too far out of balance in one direction, it must swing back in the other direction to reestablish that balance. This may take a very long time (or not!) but clearly significant shifts in our climate could create a lot of havoc for the whole global population.

When the "pump" shut downs, the planet will freeze at the poles and boil at the Equator.

It will not be homogenous.

The earth's immune system kicking in to fight the infection that is attacking it's life support system. So if you thought Katrina was bad just wait. As that old tv commercial used to say "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature". And can she ever be a bitch when threatened.

simpler organisms will survive and evolution will continue until the sun expands into a red giant and turns the earth into a blackened rock. This is why all the "save the planet" type slogans of environmentalism are just plain bullcrap. The planet is just fine... its the humans that are endangered... ironically by themselves. The dinosaurs turned out to be a dead end... and the primate mammals too... 'tis a shame we might not be around to see what comes next.

Whether it will be human or not, that is another question. Still, even we've been around a lot longer than our 'history'. Archaic peoples have lived on this planet for over a hundred thousand years and they did so more or less in balance with their local ecosystems AND they did it without 'machines' much more complicated that rock hammers and bone needles.

Mother Nature will eventually vomit us up and spit us out.

Not that climate could change so dramatically in such a short amount of time, but can a Vice-President, who looks and sounds remarkably like Dick Cheney, actually admit to being wrong? Can a Republican really admit to being wrong?

Perhaps "The Day after Tomorrow, Part 2" will have a Republicanesque (Vice-)President actually apologize for being wrong (such an action will no doubt require two motion pictures to take place).

according to my atlas. I think that's way above any of the sea level rise predictions (most are in the order of a metre or two - enough to flood cities on the sea, and very low-lying places like Bangladesh). However, local rainfall and snowfall might change, so you might find yourself either under fresh water, or not on the shore at all.

Worst case scenario is 20 ft. You will NOT have the ocean lapping at your feet. The lake level might rise but not likely to be any higher than historical amounts. The lake DOES have an outlet.

and it showed half of Florida gone, California swallowed up, New York partially submerged, and the area around Lake Superior also under water. I wish I could find it, but maybe somebody else here has it.

Less food. Bigger (and larger) forest fires too.

I'm thinking about starting a new business in levee building. Me thinks my sister 'n family in Tampa's gonna need some of that 'protection' soon...

at least not entirely. I would say the St. Lawrence river is going to get even more brackish, further upstream than previously. Also, if you are that far north, I would move south if I were you. The billions of tonnes of FRESH water that is frozen on Greenland are going to be dumped, at ever increasing rates, into the Atlantic, disrupting the Gulf Stream, severely. Think the Movie "Day after Tomorrow" but instead of it stretching over weeks, its over years instead.

....are at sea level they will raise just like everything else..And as I recall you are connected to the oceans thru the St. Lawrence river, right. Then either you build a really big dam, or learn to swim.

between Lake Superior and the St. Lawrence. If you think the sea level is rising that much, say goodbye to a lot more than the Great Lakes.

The predicted sea level rise is a metre or two.

It is my impression that the current on the St. Lawrence is from the north thr Lake Ontario and over the falls toward Lake Erie. That means that the majority of the Great Lakes are downstream from the ocean and will feel the sea level rise.

Certainly if the great lakes level were to rise the ocean would be protected from it by the Niagara Falls.

Of course, if I'm wrong, please show me and I'll correct my impression.

Information on the other lakes is at that site too. The other 4 are at very similar heights to each other, but the flow is from Superior and Michigan into Huron, which flows into Erie, which goes over the Niagara Falls into Ontario. All are freshwater lakes.

Another something that was ignored. Or perhaps I was sleeping that day?

snow in Wisconsin like it used to. I think I'll look at property more north.

Back then, 'winter' in Wisconsin meant November to Late March, with January and February being a deep freeze most years. Now it means December to Late February of mild winter with maybe 3 weeks of authentic Wisconsin 'really damn cold' weather.

And I don't remember getting 90 degree days in early June when I was growing up. That used to be just late July/August weather.

storm we had was the Holloween storm of 39" in our area. It was a real experience.

oil field for oil tankers.


oozing sarcasm

Just imagine, the highway going up to the slope won't have to be plowed in the winter so often. Prudhoe Bay will be like a Jamaican resort. Much better for the workers and much less expensive for BP to operate. Not that oil prices would go down anytime thereafter, just that the oil companies would be so much happier and so would our preseedant.

Asia. Due to ocean currents, it is a lot cheaper to transport oil to Asia. If you've ever canoed on a creek or a river, you know it is a hell of a lot easier to go down stream than upstream.

Anyway, the deals have been done as far as ANWR oil is concerned. When and if it is tapped, it is going to Asia.

With the permafrost melting, roads may not be too stable now, same with structures built on the permafrost.

"Anyway, the deals have been done as far as ANWR oil is concerned. When and if it is tapped, it is going to Asia."

Not that I doubt this for an instant, but do you have any links or additional info to back this up with?

some environmental group web sites.

I am getting ready to go out to do some leafletting, so I don't have the time to do the search for you. Be creative with your search terms like ANWR oil contracts.

I'd prefer to get that sort of info from a non-biased neutral news source (is there such a thing anymore in this country?) over an environmental website. Just asking you to please provide something to back up your claim. I'm not the one who posted such info, you are, and hence you should be the one to provide proof for your statements sir.

It's not a very user friendly site but I'm sure the info is there.

I'm not saying that the info is erroneous. Just that I have been hearing of such tales, even concerning the natural gas pipeline (if it ever actually gets built) and the gas being piped to Asia. But all along I have yet to see a definitive statement or proof from a credible and non-biased source that clearly outlines these shipping plans and deals. For years, the Alaska oil pipeline supplied the Untited States with about 15 to 20% of it's supply. That means the oil was piped down to Valdez, and shipped off in tankers to southern refineries. In recent years this has dropped significantly, but the oil is stil, used and shipped domestically. So I'm just curious to see where it has been said that any new production from ANWR would be sold strictly to overseas markets.

market. They said that the west coast refineries couldn't handle it. They are already maxed out.

Here's a statement from Leahy.


http://leahy.senate.gov/issues/environment/anwr.html


Alaskan oil does not make its way to the Northeast United States. Instead, it is mostly transported to the West Coast or exported to Asia (GAO, 1999). ANWR oil would have no effect on the supply and price of home heating oil in Northeast states like Vermont.

If the domestic refineries can't take it, then what is to be done? I'll remind everybody here that the reason more refineries have'nt been built since the 80's in this country is partly due to environmental concerns. And so here we are, with a new source of crude available right on our back dooestep, and we can't refine the stuff because the enviro-wackos did'nt let us build new refineries. Nice!

I believe in protecting our environment, but I won't and refuse to be a hypocrite about it. I still drive my trucks, for work and for pleasure. I need gas. I'm not quite smart or rich enough to develop my own alternative fuel, so I have to buy gas and oil. And BOTH sides of these issues are making things worse, not better.

prevent an oversupply? I remember that being discussed around the time of the California brownouts in the spring/summer of 2001. The oil companies accused the environmentalist, and the environmentalist replied by showing memos from the industry discussing the moritorium. Was the shortage of refineries done on purpose?


Here's one about Shell wanting to shut down a profitable refinery.
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=28449

Sure there was an element of NIMBY. Nobody wants to build their McMansion downwind from a refinery or have one move into their neighborhood.

Thanks for the info. Interesting, if that's truly even partly correct.

If this supposed moratorium existed though, and worries about an over-supply abounded within the industry, then why could'nt the Strategic Oil Reserve simply absorb it (or some other strategic reserve created for refined petro products like HEATING OIL for example for price relief in winter) if they did'nt want it going to market and de-inflating crude prices?

"Nobody wants to build their McMansion downwind from a refinery or have one move into their neighborhood."

Indeed. And nobody wants to stop driving their new SUV's and mini-vans to pick the kiddies up from soccer practise either.

For years the domestic drillers wanted higher crude prices so it would be worth their time to explore and drill. As far as the oil companies are concerned, they should have been investing money back into refineries, but controlling the supply gave them more profit.


It seems that the environmentalist have been the whipping boy of the corporatist. We see that the administration lawyers are trying to find if the Sierra Club or any other group sued, hindering the building or repairing the levees. It appears that the ones that said it isn't time for the blame game are playing it to the hilt, using our tax money to do it.



Our citizens want low prices for oil and gas, but do not want to make the sacrifices needed. I'm sure clean technology exists to keep the refining process as clean as possible, making it less offensive to the senses.


I lived in Louisville Ky, aromas told you where you were. Where I lived there were refineries and several distilleries. I preferred the smell of the sour mash, but my girlfriend lived by the refinery. I'm sure time will come where people will be more willing to have a refinery in their community, but there has to be a compelling reason.


It's been a busy weekend so finding info on this issue has been a low priority. (its the kickoff weekend for a non partisan ballot initiative campaign) I have one more event tonight, but if I don't get resupplied with what I need, I will stay home.

I have a friend in the business and we talked at length about this. I believe he might have given me the links. I do remember politicians saying they cannot promise the oil to the US.

You will either have to do the search yourself, or wait until I have returned tonight.

Kind of hard to build ice roads and drill pads when the ground is melting out from under your feet.

might finally be a reality.:mad:

Here's a Satellite view from August. Most of this is a very cool cloud formation, but if you look through the breaks in the clouds (in the upper left part of the picture), you'll see the Arctic Sea Ice, all cracked up, looking sort of like a Slushy.


Click Thumbnail

or try the viewer, look for and click the little Icon that looks like this:

.....tends to do that in summer season. No big revelation, sorry.

I've worked in that area and have lived in the Alaska region, all over, for years. I know when there is proof of global warming and when there's simply not. I don't think this is a good example.

The best place to look for global warming is in the permanent ice fields and glaciers themselves, not unstable sea ice.

But the point is that it is waning to unrecorded lows and is recovering in the winter. The sea ice satellite record isn't long but it is useful and as more data is gathered it is a very good place to look for global warming.

a good place to look for global warming but the aforementioned example of cracks in the coastal sea ice proves nothing except that the imagery was taken during the warmest month of the summer.

Another erroneous concept is to look for global warming in the ozone layer of Antarctica. Since ozone production has been scientifically linked to the phenomenon of lightning, and since lightning never or raely actually occurs in polar regions, it can be deduced that part of the problem lies there, especially since the data record for the ozone layer is incomplete and the very first satellite images of it also show a hole in it, leaving us with guessing as to when the hole actually began....whether it was a hundred years ago or has always been there.

Alot of sketchy science.

but when placed in historical context against pictures from previous years it is.

Ozone depletion and global warming are different subjects.

is almost at the North Pole, well above the Arctic Circle, and Yes, that is new. I believe last year or the year before, was the first time the North Polar Ice was ever recorded as breaking up like this.

If you want to see the RAW image (which also has a false color, IR image, Ice is cyan in color) that has the Latitude Lines in the lower res images, click below:


Click Thumbnail

And about the Ozone hole, that WAS only a problem at the South Pole when it was discovered, but now, their is one at the North Pole too, and the hole at the South pole has grown, A LOT.:eyes:

You're right. There was an article in the NYTimes a couple of years ago, making much of the open water on the top of the world, where there would be ice even in the warmest months. Polar bears are starving because they cannot go out on the ice to look for their food like the used to. The ice can't support them. This is not usual. This is a warning, no matter what W and his oil-company backed scientists say.

There is no definitive proof that the hole over Antarctica has gotten "bigger", since the historical record for it is so sketchy. It's ALWAYS been there. Always. Whether it has grown or shrunk is of really no consequence, since we do not have any data going back long enough to show a time when it DID'NT exist, which is doubtfully possible for the reasons I explained before. I'm not buying into it 100% until further scientific proof is offered showing succinctly that hole is a relatively recent development.

The cracks in the ice you are showing is part of an image taken during the warmest month of the season. Take another snap of it around December or January and let's see what it looks like then.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I agree whole-heartedly that there is something adverse going on up here. But I'm not going to just buy into junk psuedo-science and images taken at opportune times as proof of it without more evidence. I think the issue can be overplayed and over-dramatized and that does'nt help the cause either.

The "Talking Points" are not "junk psuedo-science" it's either "Junk Science" or "Pseudo-Science," it can't be both or you start to contradict yourself. Get it right!

You say: "There is no definitive proof that the hole over Antarctica has gotten "bigger", since the historical record for it is so sketchy. It's ALWAYS been there. Always...."

"Definitive proof!" Where's your "definitive proof" that "It's ALWAYS been there. Always."??? Just saying it doesn't make it so. Do you even know how far back the "sketchy" historical record goes? How about you show us some of your "definitive proof" that what you're saying is NOT total BS.

Just because you can't find "definitive proof" to prove that something did NOT exist "offered" on the internet, does not mean the proof does NOT exist, It simply means that scientists don't feel the need to waste their time and computer storage space on proving the negative. That's not their job, that's the job of disruptor's like you.

I have no "definitive proof" that you are "...not trying to be argumentative..." and are instead a RW disruptor or an Oil Corporation activist here to waste mine, and everyone's time, but I think their is a great deal of evidence here that you are just that and that IS your goal. I do have "definitive proof" that you don't know how to properly use an apostrophe as evidence by your multiple wrong usage here ("DID'NT" and "does'nt"), the apostrophe goes between the n and the t.

Here's your "definitive proof" for that, not that you'll read or learn something from it: <http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_apost.html>

And BTW, did you even READ the article that started this thread? Here's one of the key points being made:

"...Satellites monitoring the Arctic have found that the extent of the sea ice this August has reached its lowest monthly point on record, dipping an unprecedented 18.2 per cent below the long-term average. Experts believe that such a loss of Arctic sea ice in summer has not occurred in hundreds and possibly thousands of years. It is the fourth year in a row that the sea ice in August has fallen below the monthly downward trend - a clear sign that melting has accelerated...."

This article is not concerned with what happens to the Sea Ice in the Winter months, we all know it still freezes in the winter, that's not news to anyone.

This is about the fact that the Summer Sea Ice is melting due to the warming Sea water and higher Air temperatures in the Summer, which is a further evidence (not "definitive proof," evidence) to the case that Global warming is a growing problem.

I have plenty of links to more "sketchy" science, not that you would accept any of it or could understand it anyway. So, if you can show any "definitive proof" to back up your claim that "...It's ALWAYS been there. Always...," or just want another smack down, as another idiot who thinks they way you do once said, "Bring it on."

a no-bid contract to rebuild the Arctic? :shrug:

this is it folks, no one can be sure what's goingto happen now, maybe lets just hope for a massive rebound and cold winter up there.

crap... what to do?

Can't you hear the know-nothings, now?

"It's already gone, so what the fuck? I'm getting another SUV."

They've nothing else to lose so, party like it's 1999!

sulfate to create plankton blooms as artificial carbon sinks. Ah, found it on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_sink

This was before the 2002 study they reference but it had been tried before then and they were concerned with just how well it initially seemed to work; they actually seemed to think it could work well enough to put the Earth back into an ice-age. This was maybe 1997.

I don't have any kids, but maybe they'll sort out the mess our (and their) parents have left for them. Maybe.

...titled: "The Future of Ice" by Gretel Ehrlich tonight. Here's a passage from her intro:

----------------------

We're spoiled because we've been living in an interglacial paradise for twenty thousand years. Now we're losing it. Climate stability, not to mention human superiority and economic viability, are illusions we must give up. Our can-do American optimism and our head-in-the-sand approach to economics when it takes into mind only profit but not the biological health of our planet---has left us one-sided. Too few of us remember how to be heartbroken. Or why we should be. We don't look because heartbreak might imply failure. But the opposite is true. A broken heart is an open heart, like a flower unfolding from its calyx, the one nourishing the other.

-----------------------

I'm about half way through. A very good read so far.

I have travelled in and out of Alaska (where I presently live) for years, and I have seen with my own eyes and memory how the glaciers are receding....or for lack of a better word, retreating, just in the last 10 years. Along one particular highway I am familiar with, a large glacier's base once almost came to within several hundred feet of the roadway. Now, it takes a good hike to walk back far enough up and over a hill to get to the base now. That's a alot of ice gone, alot more even than the statistics I see and hear reported in the media.

I know some old timers here who would tell you stories of how enormous some other glaciers used to be as compared to today.

We have also been experiencing warmer and warmer summers over the past decade at least. This is occurring all over the region. We have broken....yes, broken all time summer high temps this year on several occasions. It was very warm.

There is something going on, dramatically, up here.

I think I heard several years ago that mosquitos had become a recent (and unwelcome) arrival in Alaska due to the warming. Is this one of the phenomena up your way?

Mosquitos have ALWAYS been in Alaska. They are'nt a new arrival. The info you are hearing is probably connected to the fact that the last winter we had produced a large amount of snow cover, more so than usual, especially in certain parts of the state. When this occurs, the snow cover provides a blanket of sorts for the mosquito eggs waiting to hatch for next season. They don't die off in larger numbers due to the insulating properties of the snow.....it keeps them warm and protected. When the snows melted and ground thawed, the effects of that protection became quite apparant in the form of much larger swarms than is the norm. In certain parts, it has been reported that the swarms get so large that they resemble black clouds. It is truly the state bird.

early 80s. We went to visit her and she took us to Portage Glacier and Harding Ice Field. I don't know how the ice field looks now, but she went back to visit some friends there this past July, and she said that you now have to take a boat to see Portage Glacier. When I was there, it was all the way up to the Visitor's Center. That's a lot of melt. (I loved Alaska, so beautiful.)

and I saw some photos recently where the ice is now. Fucking scary.

Her change comes in thousands of years!!!

to do anything about it, 'YOU'RE' NOT stubborn, 'YOU'RE' just plain stupid!!!

I give it 20 years.

Canada is sounding better and better.

But who knows what the transitional period will bring...

Oh, the things we will see. This will make the fall of Rome look like a day in the park.

and would have immediate global repercussions. For example, studies show that when this happened in the distant past, the Gulf Stream basically stopped. When the oceans' great currents are weakened, temperature extremes are exacerbated. England, for example, owes its relatively mild climate to the Gulf Stream's warmth, and much ocean life depends on the great upswellings driven by the currents for food.

Recommended

:toast:

you should watch it. Not saying the changes will happen that fast, but the extremes in weather changes will scare anyone. Except this administration!

invade Greenland.

the CIA is moving their ops to Denver, it being mile high and all?

Shit. I need to find that story.

I live an hour away from Denver. First we have all kinds of nutjob politicians, and now we may be hosting these idiots.

Superb.

sorry, i am math challenged. but there are 2 things that i think about in the 'big engineering fix' vein, re rising sea levels. i know, they are probably crazy, but...
what is the volume of water we are talking about? how does it compare to the volume of water that has been removed from the aquifers that we have emptied in the plains states? would it lower the sea level, if we recharged them?
also, if desert areas were planted with salt tolerant, quick growing plants, especially larger trees, and irrigated with sea water, could that make a dent?

global warming may leave me with beach front property, here on the third coast, as i live on the slope of the ancient lake michigan lake bed. but ridge avenue- the old shore, is still 2 block away.

As water evaporates, the salt will be left behind in time salinty levels wil raise beyond the tolerable level of any organism.

just for the sake of the physics of it. assuming a means of desalinization, or salt tolerant plants, or solutions to whatever other problems may be present.

The rapture's just around the corner. this is GOOD news, actually. the Lord is about to return in His Glory.

Remember the Ann Coulter philosophy: "God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"---Hannity & Colmes, 6/20/01
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0111.coulterwisdom.html

So you see, everything is just as it should be.

Just make sure your soul is right with God. New Orleans was just a preview of his coming wrath upon the godless.

:sarcasm:

the rapture's already happened, this is the thousand years of terror.

of global warming. Why is that? Well, maybe it's because the powers that be (i.e. big oil, every industry that would be negatively affected by climate control measures) have been blowing propaganda up our ass and squelching the truth now for years. Add to that the Rethug noise machine who has effectively labeled global warming as "junk science" in the minds of many a sheeple.

Sorry, but I'm afraid we are really and truly fucked.

:(

Thanks Oil-Fucks.

The Fat Lady has been singing for some time now. Damn that "modern" music! I't got no recognizable form; a body don't know what to expect!

into New New Orleans and the Gulf Coast- which will soon be a lot more Gulf, and a lot less Coast...????

You're right....New Orleans has been reclaimed by the Great Earth Mother, sending a loud and clear message. And it's not only our chimp in chief that was looking the other way. Most Americans only saw the hurricane, but not the bigger picture, on the news.

We need some REAL leaders in the good ole United Corporate States of America. Unfortunately, we can't ELECT any REAL leaders, due to the CORPORATE control of the vote counting machines. They only seem to tally votes for the same buggers that keep exacerbating these problems.

:kick:

Too bad our culture is one that hates real learning and loves spoon-fed 'training' (training like what a dog gets).

that hates sciences and only loves sport.

that would rather shoot first and ask questions later.

It would be nice if there were a way out for the few who don't deserve this, but maybe we all do deserve this, those of us who are able to learn and think have a greater responsibility to lead the rest, and instead we've permitted the worst sort to completely take over every aspect of this so called society. America has earned what's it's got coming I'm afraid. Pity and weap for the many who won't even see it coming.

a quote from Bob Dylan's Masked and Anonymous:
Here is President Mickey Rourke's address to the nation upon inheriting the debased office:


As you know, we have captured the cultural institutions of this country. The institutions that shape the souls of the young. The schools, the colleges, the movies, music, and the arts. They all belong to us now. At the moment, we are giving people a new identity, and erasing the collective memory. We are rewriting the history books. Nothing was more important to our President than bringing peace to this war torn country. Peace, a lasting peace, can only be achieved through strength. So, in my first act as new President, as the leader of the new government, this new regime, we will begin to deploy troops immediately to the southern regions, we will resume the bombing in the jungle. We will begin executing and enslaving prisoners... Remember this, life is a chess game, where all the pieces are the same color. Your self-discipline will be watched and judged.

We have learned a valuable lesson. Great nations do not fight small wars. We have seen the difference between winners and losers. Those who are victorious win first then go to war, while the defeated go to war first and then seek to win.

There will be no more stupidity. No more mistakes. It is a new day. God help you all.

when loudsue's home is flooded or blown away or burned down or...

leadership is not abt sitting on one's hands and going, boo hoo, we're past the pt of no return, it's too late, so i'll just enjoy MINE and too bad abt YOURS

there is no "we're stooooopid" altho some individuals may be either unkind, selfish, or indeed just uncaring, which could be considered a form of emotional stupidity at least

when you no longer use fuel or eat food transported thru the port of new orleans & the port of gulfport & the port of mobile i will be interested in yr view of why we shouldn't rebuild the coast

if you abandon the coasts & the river flood plains you abandon all of civilization, all of agriculture, all of the arts, all of human history, & you go back to the caves

everything great abt human history except maybe the moon landing is tied to water -- & if you'll look hard you'll even see a huge contribution from the coast & the south to the space program

There was NOTHING in my post about "enjoying MINE and too bad abt YOURS".

The big picture is that America under boosh has systematically, by stated public policy, looked the other way at global warming. Loudsue's home is VERY LIKELY going to be blown away, since it is very near the east coast. And I'm very angry about the lack of action taken concerning global warming. In fact, I've been harping on it since the '70's.

Global warming is real, and it's not about "mine". It's about a country who was FORMERLY considered a world "leader" turning stooopid under the direction of the republican greedmasters.

But we didn't vote these guys in, due to Diebold, ES&S, etc., who have taken over our now privatized elections.

There is NO PROBLEM we face in this country that can't be turned around, or at least improved upon, if we had honest elections. Global warming is one problem that it may be too late to stop, but we might find SOME solutions if we were free to elect people with half a brain.

because the last fucking place people should move is right back in the hurricane zone on those coasts. It's crazy. But it might be too painful for people to talk about

We will destroy ourselves before we destroy the planet.

hmmm, well, isn't that interesting. it began as the chimperor came in to office....:(

Environmental science is in its infancy. The computer models are near worthless as we have nowhere near a complete understanding of all of the complex factors required to maintain our ecosystem. In fact, the current rate of environmental change is faster than our scientific method to track such changes.

Everyone keeps worrying about the oceans, but the heat-waves and windstorms will be just as crippling. This is not a change one survives by moving away from the water's edge.

And don't blame any political party or individual person. Our inherent selfishness as a species has led to this. People here on the left refuse to put personal agendas aside to allow a unified front to recapture power for an environmentally friendly regime. The impoverished farmers of all the wold's last great forests slash and burn, the illegal miners of central and south america dump pure mercury into the jungles by the ton, and the right wing still puts consolidation of power above survival - gambling the weather problems can be solved after they have enslaved us all.

I think its possible global emergency power rationing could have a positive effect (the east coast blackout a while back had a much greater than expected environmental impact,) but unlike the WWII generation today's Americans will never agree to reducing personal comfort until it's too late.

Heck, it's even possible the entire process may reverse because of some unknown natural factors. Or the rest of the world will compensate for America's refusal to conserve. But if not... those who think life on earth will continue aren't considering the mass redistribution of our toxic wastes.

what personal agendas are people on the left not letting go of in order to reclaim power?

What did Clinton do to help the environment while in power?

He sure as hell didn't reinstate CAFE standards...

but I'm wondering what else he did... he had two full years with dems in control of congress... he could have done a lot.

even the Kyoto protocol was insufficient by the time it was finished.

Stop blaming a single person or regime. We all had the available news, our own eyes. we all listened as significant ecological disaster was branded and renamed "el nino"

The left's addiction to superiority by intellectualism let it be lured into useless and divisive debate on issues unimportant compared to the issue of human survival. If it had been done mindfully I could consider it noble rather than selfish.

That's all.

We'd need lots more than that... as you said, we'd need a majority of people to recognize that their preferences and comforts weren't as important as shared sacrifice for the common good.

How likely is that, especially in this country?

But with the suppression of ego-driven issues the margin of votes would have been too huge to manipulate... we could have had an administration that recognizes the problem rather than exploits it.

Even the people on this progressive board aren't contemplating the ramifications.
The truth is consciousness is not what most people imagine it to be. 3 months from now the theme music and titled graphics of Katrina will move memories of that disaster to the same part of our brains used for made for TV movies, and the chance of putting environment before economy will again pass us by.

I think soon enough we'll be forced to deal with it.

Did you see this?

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article312997.ece

even for many on the left. I know what you mean by failing to come together though (nader voters) but even if we had... I don't think there has ever been enough of us, too much of the population never even had the chance to start down the road that could have gotten them to the point of making a unified polity for progresive change and sacrifice for the better of all.

Where to go from here... ? I wonder...

Get the Daily Show on this quick.

:sarcasm:

Superb report and booklet at link below. Here's a snip:


"And just five private global oil corporations -- Exxon Mobil,1 BP Amoco,2 Shell, Chevron and Texaco -- produce oil that contributes some ten percent of the world's carbon emissions.3

While these five companies and their allies in Congress are busy blaming the American consumer for massive energy consumption, or the "Developing World" for not taking adequate steps to curb global warming, the emissions from the fuel they produce exceed the total of all greenhouse gasses coming from Central America, South America and Africa combined!

In addition to producing the oil which is bringing on global warming, these Greenhouse Gangsters contribute to and perpetuate the climate change dynamic in several other key ways:
• They are refiners and marketers of oil and gas.
• They use their political power to prevent technological transformation and maintain business as usual.
• They buy public and scientific opinion."

http://corpwatch.org/article.php?id=1048

Over the millennia, our Earth has basically reached what is known as a ‘steady state’. This is when the basic changes to our Earth have remained constant (although changes will occur and can be significant) and predicable.

The inputs (heat, cold, life, chemicals) have remained in a steady state and therefore the outputs (changes to our environment) have equalized. Note: ‘equalized’ only means that changes are present but predicable – not ‘no changes occur’.

This steady state allows for certain creations – the most significant is life – plants and animals (of which we are but one of the many).

So, when the inputs are changed – as we have done with ‘gases’ – we change the steady state. The Earth Experiment now is in the ‘throes’ of regaining a steady state. Ice caps melting, ocean temperatures change, etc. The Earth will equalize again. The only problem is that Life (the biology part) will change. Humans can die off just as easy as the dinosaurs did. Ma Nature truly does not care – she just runs the Earth – she is happy with whatever life shows up.

This occurrence, global warming, is like a ‘fire that is encompassing the earth’ and every nation, every leader, every person should be SCREAMING. We are KILLING ourselves. And especially the USA and especially this administration, and especially those ‘rapture’ people are doing absolutely nothing about it. In fact they are accelerating the process. Bush put in laws relaxing pollution controls for power plants, etc.

These ‘god’ people, these religious people, these rapture people can go right to hell. Hey, if you all want to die, don’t wait for me – go right ahead and die already. You have NO RIGHT to take us all with you into your stupid rapture death.

I believe in life – a clean environmental life.

Our existence is in jeopardy. This (global warming) will KILL us all – it’s just what happens when you change the variables in a steady state experiment.

We have to stop this now – before it is really to late. The good news is that Ma Nature does heal herself. When 911 occurred and when that power outage occurred in the East (remember the large power outage) – Ma Nature was already cleansing herself. When the planes were removed from the air on 911, scientists were amazed by how the air was remarkably and immediately cleaner. Same for the power stations going offline and not dumping crap into the air.

So while stupid people are spending BILLIONS to kill people in Iraq, and while we continually drive are smog machines, and while we have are power plants spew the toxins into our air and land, we are killing ourselves. It won’t take long till we are gone.

...giant greenhouse experiment:

http://www.karlandkinggeorge.com/Greenhouse_Experiment.html

a couple issues back showed pics of the same place with 20-30 years passing in between. It was shocking to see the difference. Picture from years ago show glacier, current pic, nothing but green grass and blue water. The contrast was stunning.

Julie

the weather was often overcast, but rarely violent. The last couple of years, though, have been different. As I look out my window now, the sky is covered with the churning, active clouds that accompany unsettled weather. These kinds of clouds have been overhead most of the year and are most unlike the staid overcast that was the norm before. In the last few years, I've seen more hail than I ever even saw in the U.S. About a month ago, a town south of me was pounded with golf-ball sized hail -- very unusual weather for this region. And the thunderstorms -- oh my -- just as violent as anything I saw in Georgia, and again, not normal for this region. My guess is that the Gulf Stream is already pulling back a bit, and that there is more cold air mixing with what warm air is still being provided by the GS -- thus driving the dynamic weather. (Not withstanding the heat that is melting the glaciers -- you would never guess it here -- we had maybe two weeks of weather that was warm enough to be considered mildly uncomfortable).

Naturally, the TV weather in Europe is mostly ignoring the fact of the change. Sure, we hear about the storms coming in, but the empty smiles on the screen never comment about how differently the weather is acting. Garmisch got cut off by a mud slide because of torrential rains, same thing happened in Switzerland. But let's not worry our pretty heads about WHY it is happening.

We used to get the first real snow around Thanksgiving. Two years ago, it hit in mid-October. I was shocked to walk in the woods and see a tree that overnight dropped all of its leaves in reaction to the sudden drop in temperature. This year, the trees were so confused, some leaves started turning around late July.

This is going to be a lot of fun.

BH

Start with the mean temperatures that are on record and then compare it with the mean of temperatures in the last 90 days and plot the difference. Take a good look at the heat bloom at the South Pole. The temperature anomaly is in excess of 18 degrees Celsius!!

interesting area is the Himalayas and the Gobi Desert, nice and yellow.

Cheers

BH

if we are past the point of no return, why bother doing anything except live it up while it lasts

no use going steerage on the titanic

if there is no hope to turn it around, actions should be v. different than if there is hope

if you have a terminal illness w. no hope of recovery, you can stop yr retirement planning

if there is no future, there is no need for long-term planning

i'm not sure this is a good view to promulgate

hasn't made much of an impact, has it?

I think those of us down in steerage need to hear the truth, even if the lifeboats have already been taken.

We can continue on with our ways indefinitely! yay!

once yr beyond the pt of no return

by definition there is no return

this ship has sailed

ppl won't put energy into lost causes, well, the majority won't

if there is something to be done, show me what

if there is nothing to be done, i appreciate the honesty but i will not bother sacrificing my life energy to no purpose

most ppl can see the changes in weather just fine but if you make them feel it is hopeless to do anything, they won't do anything

I have to say I'll continue trying to be smart about conserving energy where I can and doing my part.

I allways try to be realistic but I admit I'm a closet optimist.

Hopefully I won't be the only one who decides not to just give it all up as a lost cause.

Well it may be that we have truly reached a point of no return. I'll try to hold out a little hope that we are simply panicking about a planetary system that we don't fully understand. Whatever the case I'm glad I was drug to all thos boy scout meetings and camp outs when I was a kid. At least I know how to survive should civilization colapse.

Even should the worst come to pass however, I am sure that civilization would survive on some scale. Even if some of the highly populated areas of our earth become inhospitable, humanity will doubtless struggle on. You know we are far to stubborn to just give up and die. This is a massive temperatire change we are talking about, not some kind of nuclear armageddon. Even if our nightmares are realized, I have a feeling we may be as hard to get rid of as the cockroaches, kings of survival that they are.

Perhaps the next generation will be all the wiser for seeing the result of past actions. Maybe worldwide people will change their ways, maybe not. It should be interesting to watch.