Catholic churches lead signature drive for ban on gay marriage

(Parentheses and bold added)

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/10/03/catholic_churches_lead_signature_drive_for_ban_on_gay_marriage/

Religious organizations are stuffing the petitions by engaging in political activity.

This ballot is a political initiative.

And another thing dear catholic church:

Traditional Marriage isn't the least bit affected by same sex marriage. Traditional marriage is not the same as same sex marriage, because in traditional marriage you marry someone of the opposite sex.

You can still marry whomever you want. Why is that a problem to you? You still have traditional marriage. No problem. You can keep it. We just want same sex civil marriage IN ADDITION to your traditional marriage.

how about a petition to rid the world from testicle-fondling Catholic priests? Could you find it in your busy schedule to do that?

Gays in priest drags moralizing about how other gays can't marry. Kinda like gay Republicans moralizing on traditional marriage values.

Like George Carlin says, "some people are not stupid, they're just full of shit".

How about divorce...do they have an initiative on that, or will they still do the annulllment if the money is right? Maybe a petition will put an end to it altogether.

How about helping the poor? Let's get politicking on that while we're on a roll.

has this tax-exempt church group been throwing entirely too much of its hate around. Thirty years of gay bashing is quite enough from these hypocrites and homophobe bullies.

Something somewhere definitely needs to be yanked, yibbehobba. You're right about that.

This is open politicing, this Diocese should have its tax-exempt status revoked.

Things like these are just personal power plays for the Bishop that pushes it. They are often blind to other Catholic social teaching and pretty much follow the popular political line (aka GOP) and that is about it.

It's being discussed. See:

http://www.knowthyneighbor.org

Tesha

In fact, these two Morans have the honor of being two among the original thirty signers of the petition, as printed in Tesha's link.

Moran Carole A. 415 Lafayette Street Salem MA 01970
Moran Philip D. 415 Lafayette Street Salem MA 01970

The site will be updated as more haters (more Morans?) sign on.

They have until November 23 to reach 65,000 for their amendment to go on the ballot in 2008. There may still be time.

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:eyes:

I thought the church wasn't supposed to change to the will of men, but there are always exceptions, I guess.

long before 'a couple hundred years ago'.



It seems a little unlikely they'd bless homosexual unions if they thought the sex was a mortal sin.

...discusses this idea very thoroughly. Your timeframe is a bit off, but, yes, there is some evidence such unions were blessed in the Roman Catholic (Western) and Orthodox (Eastern) churches.

http://www.powells.com/biblio/61-0679751645-0

I had trouble finding something to support what I'd said, but I knew it was out there, and I felt it was important to point it out.

In the book "Sex in History" I believe written by Tannenbaum, the Catholic Church at one time thought having sex with another man was less of a sin as having sex with one of those evil, dirty women. The penance for priests caught having sex with another man was far less than the penance for having sex with a woman.

During early Christianity, the church could have gone another way, with the perceptions of Pelagius. The Church still bad mouths him to this day!!!!

...that book has been pretty thoroughly debunked by most scholars. It seems the "rites" Boswell speaks of were more likely ceremonies for blessing political alliances between the heads of tribal families, rather than personal relationships that included sexual expression.

stupid war (and illegal to boot), prover ty, health care...makes you wonder what is politically motivating this...

Just like all the GOP sound and fury about the culture of life while sending our kids to die in a illegal immoral war, allowing increases in pollution like mercury which cause brain damage in fetuses and young kids, cutting funding for education, etc. This is all a front to make it look like that the powers that be give a damn about people while actually violating them again and again covering for the child predators in their ranks. Not to mention the covering up of nuns being raped in the ranks as well by priests!

I don't know what's up with the Catholics in Massachusetts, but the east coast media is fond of seizing upon their weaknesses because the WASP establishment has a longstanding historical beef with the Irish.

'Catholic' is really code word for 'Irish'. Whenever their little feelings are hurt, they get one of these stories into print.

I'm not letting these Catholics off the hook, but you have to put things in context.

Here in Chicago, the churches are really active in poverty and other social justice issues. It's in the local media, if you care to look, but, again, the guilty WASPs are fond of using the media to expose other people's sins.

Also, there's this tradition in the Catholic church of taking up the burden of saying aloud what other more cowardly folks will not say (i.e., the WASP establishment, which doesn't want gay marriages).

You see, they're feeling a little stung by the Irish right now, so they use the old, 'well, let's print some more Catholic stories again'....and 'Catholic' 'Irish' and 'Massachusetts' are synonymous in their brains...but the fact is, they've got a lot of powerful enemies here in Chicago, where they can't get away with their sabotage and libel.

Anyone who automatically salutes their sliming in the press is equally culpable in my opinion. The WASPs would like nothing better than to see the Irish Catholics get 'handled' like their little 'Jew problem' got handled in WWII. They're little better than terrorists, and all they have left is the press to smuggle in their veiled threats. But what do you know? People living in a democracy still salute them and kiss their asses...'cos they got mortgage payments and need to keep their jobs and keep from getting blackballed and all...like the Irish got 'blackballed'. Greed and cowardice keep people from holding the real feudalists accountable.

And you can take your, 'well, what are you doing about poverty' and shove it. This is self-righteousness and nosiness (which, in its extreme form, turns into stalking - 'cos they're stalking me and my family in an effort to find some dirt to blackmail or threaten us with). The WASPs are basically guilty of racketeering, and when folks don't do business their way, they threaten, they sabotage, they use 'their people' to do all sorts of dirty shit to you. Ever hear of 'blackballing'. But they're really proud of how they handle the media - dirt is their biggest business, and anyone who takes their dirt and lies at face value is likewise culpable. Stop apologizing and covering up for these people. Every time I piss them off, there is a rash of Massachusetts Catholic stories in the media. They treat the Boston Irish like crap, and they owe us reparations, quite frankly. That's what this is about - stop saluting them. It's so hypocritical, because the media is far from responsible when it comes to social justice issues, yet you all salute them when it's time to aid and abet in stalking, extorting and harassing the Irish.

They're obsessed with other people's dirt because it's a nifty way of deflecting attention from their own genocidal and terrorist ways.

And I'm pro-gay marriage, actually. So are a lot of us in Chicago, which has a large, progressive Catholic population.

But the genocidal Nazis out east sure aren't.

Gimme a break. :eyes:

They focus so much on faux issues like gay marriage and abortion so they ignore the big stuff. Nobody is going to force anybody to marry somebody they don't want to, so I don't know what the big deal is.

They need to go back and spend some more time in catechism, methinks.

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They'll never get rid of it in MA...they can try, but it will NEVER go away.

You know, like forcing poor women into having 10 children they can't care for? Or shielding molesters? Or starting witch-hunts in the seminaries looking for gays?

Multitasking their hatred.

screw their tax breaks. If they interfere in the real world, they should live in it.

... at its finest. If I live to be 100 years old, I don't think I'll ever understand why anyone can, in good conscience, continue to support such a bigoted and hateful organization.

Talk about warped priorities. If they had ONLY spent this much time and effort and exuberant energy in weeding out, and REMOVING pedophiles from within. If only.

Fuck them. Fuck anyone who supports them. Enough of this shit.

...the thought of two loving, consenting adults wishing to get married...

Fucking hypocrites...

I can't understand it either.

Why did they pick a NAZI to be pope?

Inquiring minds want to know!

I dare - I FUCKING DARE - someone to try to justify this.

Come out, DU bigots. We know you're here.

Check these folks out:

http://www.dignityusa.org/

... is beyond my comprehension. Are they in denial? Are they blind?

most are still moderate to very open minded, yet those are becoming fewer and fewer as the years go on. :(

It's just started in earnest and already they have 200 churches and thousands of signatures. I do not believe that the other parishioners (who haven't signed yet) live in an absolute vacuum and are clueless as to what's going on.

I suspect that there will be many many more who will be persuaded by their hateful and bigoted church leaders. Countless others will be influenced by their peers and will be coerced into supporting these bigoted measures, or... they'll just sit idly by and do nothing, and say nothing. (But hey... at least they didn't SUPPORT it, eh?)

If it's "only a segment" of the Catholic church that hates homos... where the fuck are the rest of the folks who ought to be outraged at this ignorant and bigoted bullshit?? Their silence is their consent and approval.

The hatred and bigotry coming out of the Catholic church is getting to be as bad as the Ku Klux Klan. Homosexuals who stay in the Catholic church, make about as much sense to me as 'Jews-for-Hitler'.

It's insane!

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... I would be interested in reading your thoughts and comments if you stay within DU rules.

This is an issue that interests me and affects me as well... I'm eager to hear ALL points of view on this topic. Please share your viewpoint with me.

Boston Catholic Archbishop Sean O'Malley has urged parishioners to sign the petition banning gay marriage
related article:
http://washingtonblade.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=2717


Jean, Grand Dragon of Indiana, enjoying her meal


Dennis, her husband, the Grand Dragon's security officer, chowing down

At least one of those hate groups allows women at the top, but what is it with these pointed hats and capes and crosses? Do they all go to the same dress maker?

Truly frightening.

Great photos you found there... :thumbsup: good comparison.

Not all Catholics are homophobes. My priest is a very, very liberal dem., who denounces * at every turn. He denounces bigotry of every kind, including discrimination against gays.

I personally, in my church, don't hear a lot of gay bashing from the people I know. I remain a practicing Catholic because of the heritage of the Church, not because of the crap spewed by those in power.

I think you could ask yourself this question, as well. I remain an American in spite of the crap being spewed by those in power. Those in power certainly aren't gay friendly.

... ones' country utterly dwarf the simplicity of walking away from a church or other group that promotes bigotry.

... been separated from their country. That's a big part of what makes us raise our voices in protest.

Believe me, I am not defending the Church's teachings on this. But, my particular priest is very liberal and he has preached some amazing homilies on forgiveness and discrimination, et al. He is not happy with the way that our country is going, and in this very, very red state, I can only hope that his words might have some impact on some of those who voted for * .

But it seems scant consolation for the very real, very harmful effects of the catholic church.

good might outweigh the bad. I have a very ingrained belief in the Church and I do truly adore a great many aspects of its history. I despise the comments about homosexuals, and I abhor the prohibition against women becoming priests.

I would hope that it might change. I would prefer to change things than to see it simply fade away.

When will "some point" arrive? What will bring it about? It's all well and good to hope for eventual change. Better still would be huge numbers of catholics standing up and demanding to be heard. Organizing, writing to demand an end to this obscenity, picketing, and yes even leaving. Hasn't happened so far. Meanwhile the trail of shattered lives grows wider.

I certainly understand about the pedophilia and shattered lives, but I didn't realize we were talking about that. I thought it was about homosexuals and the Church.

Sorry if I am being dense. Been a long day.

... their children, their families, all who simply want to live and love yet are prevented, by hideous institutions that peddle bigotry and hatred. Perhaps you've never seen, up close, the toll this takes. If so, I envy your complacency. But for many people, simply hoping that things will work out in time does nothing to ease the pain of the here and now. Real pain, real tears, real heartache. This is what the catholic church sows.

an institutition that thought I was evil to have so much power over me.

I am routinely given a hard time here where I live because I am very, very vocal about my political views. Their views and comments haven't 'shattered' my life. I don't give a rat's ass what the right wing fundies think of me. I think they are scum.

It would seem to me that the musings and leanings of the government would be far more important that the teachings of a church to which one doesn't belong.

My gay friends with children have never indicated that the teachings of the Catholic Church are a problem for them. They aren't Catholic and don't give a shit.

Step out of your bubble and see that real harm is being done... in your name.

And, frankly, no harm is being done to anyone in my name.

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... you have found a way to shield yourself from the real anguish that gays and lesbians are experiencing. Others don't have that luxury. This places you in a bubble of comfort that others are not permitted to enjoy.

This my point, the third time I have expressed it in this same language.

Disrupt sermons? Make out on the sidewalk in direct view of the congregations coming out from mass?

Screw between the pews to make our point?

"I don't think that I would allow an institutition that thought I was evil to have so much power over me."

Who said anything about "allowing" this? It's being forced upon us. There seems to be nothing I (or any GLBT people) can do about any of it.

I personally am waiting for the day Christians decide to just recriminalize homosexuality, just so people such as yourself finally get the point: many, if not most, Christians feel we shouldn't exist at all. Many is the time I've heard a Christian say they would just wipe us out if they could.

Prominent "Christian" leaders (and there's a difference; note the quotes) say things like "I'd kill him and tell God he died" when speaking of us. That's not just rhetoric.

I guess for one to really understand what this is like, one must be GLBT themselves, but the fact is even objectively, this institutionalized hatred of gays is antiChristian in the extreme. Believers either simply don't see it that way, or just shrug and say "that's what the Bible says".... or something like "I don't think that I would allow an institutition that thought I was evil to have so much power over me."

For that reason and that reason alone I want no Christians making public policy, nor do I want them using their religion to do so if they are already in office. I feel they should be required by law- with extremely stiff penalties, by the way- to suspend their religion's teachings when they are "on the clock". Why? They represent ALL the people, not just the ones they like.

Yet here we have a religion (with people in office, by the way, who are part of that religion) saying they need to impose their religion's views on a small segment of society for no other reason than because they "live in sin".

So the fuck what? Who the hell do Christians think they are, treating me and others like me in this manner?

In case you are wondering, YES, this is an anti-Christian sentiment here, and a completely justified one. My full membership in society is what is at stake here, not adhering to some silly belief from a 2000 year old book that isn't even my religion in the first place!

Let me say that last again: my full membership in society is what is at stake here. Christians are trying to reduce (and eventually eliminate) that full status as an American.

If you're not going to give me full support in my having full societal membership, including marriage (in direct contravention to your own religious beliefs), then I'm very sorry, but (collectively speaking) sit down and shut up, get out of the way, and maybe hang your head in shame for allowing your religion to do things like this to us in the first place.

I'm sorry I have to put all this that way, but this isn't just belief in a Biblical doctrine that's being discussed here; it's one religion going out of its way to reduce or eliminate my full membership in American life. Such things as religious intervention into the realm of public policy on this scale must be fought, will be fought- with force if need be- and is, objectively, unconscionable, indefensible, immoral, and completely unacceptable.

The Church- and I an not invoking only the RC Church here- hates gays as a matter of policy. There are some few congregations that do not, or at least, don't appear to, but these are aberrations of Church policy, not the norm.

The teachings of the Church- and again, I am referencing ALL Christianity here- have shattered the lives of many a gay man or lesbian. How so?

We no longer feel welcome in God's house. That's an immensely destructive thing on a purely psychological level- but sometimes, it spills over into actual physical destruction of personal property, assault, and murder. ALL brought to us by the Christian faith.

We did not bring this fight to Christians; they bring it to us, every day.

THEY are the ones pushing for laws that make it OK to fire someone if they're gay.

THEY are the ones pushing for laws that make it possible to charge an unwed mother- even a heterosexual!- with a misdemeanor just for being preggers out of wedlock.

THEY are the ones who would lock us up in a heartbeat if the law allowed them to do so- and would certainly kill us off if they thought they could get away with it.

Let me say it again. Christianity is going out of its way to make GLBT people feel unwelcome in God's house. They constantly assail us with equations linking us and pedophiles.

I cannot begin to describe how mournful, how despondent, this makes me feel. More than once, I've considered suicide to get away from these people, away from this hateful religion. And from my point of view- Christianity IS a hateful religion.

You can keep your faith in God if you like, but to continue to worship a religion that treats people such as myself in the way Christianity as a whole, taken in sum, treats me.... thanks, but no.

I can no longer trust ANY self-professed Christian; I never know whether they'll welcome me with open arms into their congregations, or try to kill me off on sight. That's a damn shame, and it is most certainly not any fault of mine.

Never ever forget: Christians bring these things to homosexuals. Not the other way around.

And yes, I'm speaking generally, because I have to. After all, how many Christians wear a "I like gay people" pin next to the cross on their lapel?

How do you think their churches would treat them if they did so?

I can call myself a Christian by my acts, but I will NOT enter a church of that religion. I have been made to feel as if I dirty the temple by entering. All doors of Christianity are closed to me. You can say that some congregations "don't mind" or "don't have a problem with" gays, but for me, nothing less than the knowledge beforehand of full and universal acceptance will make me fully trust members of that faith.

My trust in Christians to do right by me as their holy book would have them do is completely shattered, and only a full apology, made on behalf of everyone like me, and made by that religion's leadership, will ever rebuild that trust. Until then, everyone who professes to be a Christian (and saying they go to church every week, and saying they abide by doctrine, and so on) is unworthy of my trust or my support.

<< I think you could ask yourself this question, as well. I remain an American in spite of the crap being spewed by those in power. >>

... unlike the leaders of the Catholic church. With our politicians, we also have some influence as citizens... in contrast to having NO influence with the leaders of the Catholic church.

<< Those in power certainly aren't gay friendly. >>

Indeed not, and many folks are leaving for friendlier places. But again... their terms are limited (we hope) and they do have SOME oversight, some accountability, and "some" constitutional restrictions.

<< Not all Catholics are homophobes. >>

Of course not. You're correct.

<< My priest is a very, very liberal dem., who denounces * at every turn. He denounces bigotry of every kind, >>

That's great! I'm glad that he denounces Bush.


<< including discrimination against gays. >>

Even when it comes DIRECTLY from the church??

How does he denounce it when it comes from the church? What does he do--not just grumble about, but actually DO--with regard to the hate and bigotry coming from further up the chain of command?


<< I personally, in my church, don't hear a lot of gay bashing from the people I know.>>

Then you hang out with a very thoughtful and progressive crowd. That's good. -- But how many of them just know how to keep their mouths shut and not reveal their true feelings? How many of them keep quiet about it because they don't want to appear to be "uppity troublemakers"?

Why isn't there more Catholic outrage at this bullshit??!! Are Catholics so afraid to make a fuss? Why? Don't they CARE? Don't they know it's wrong?

Where's the compassion? Considering what's at stake and how ACTIVE the church is becoming in their anti-gay agenda and their anti-gay activities... it's just not enough to take comfort in the fact that their OWN parish isn't as bigoted as the one in the next county.

Folks need to take off their god damned blinders... WAKE UP... LOOK AROUND! This bigotry and hate is being done in YOUR NAME.

Do you think that the church leaders or the Vatican will listen to the complaints and pleas from the gay community? Of course not! They will only listen to their members... who, for the most part, are oddly silent.

Eerie. It sends chills down my spine.

<< I remain a practicing Catholic because of the heritage of the Church, not because of the crap spewed by those in power. >>

I understand. But how can those in power who spew crap be made to understand? Clearly you and your liberal-minded parishioners have no influence with the muted grumbling amongst yourselves. THAT certainly doesn't affect much (if any) meaningful change with regard to the HATE mongering that comes from the Catholic church.

What *would* the church leaders understand? What *would* get their attention? Hmmm. Anyone? Anyone? --- How about a SIGNIFICANT drop in membership? I'm not talking about just "not showing up" anymore. They church leaders would just attribute that to apathy, or being busy since those "no-shows" are still on the membership roster. They would have to DEMAND that their name be REMOVED from the membership list and TELL THE CHURCH exactly WHY they have made that choice.

Other ways to get attention would be to STOP FUNDING the hate. Just stop! Since parishioners have no control over where or how the money is spent (and obviously SOMEONE's donated money is being used to fund this bullshit hate) the logical solution would be to cut off its fuel supply. NO MORE TITHING. (If you feel guilty about not sharing the wealth... the donate the money DIRECTLY to a soup kitchen or homeless shelter.)

~ Allen

PS: Not mad at you. Just mad in general. Don't take it personally. :hi:

You and I have a nice relationship.

I think my priest is probably indicative of more of the New Testament type of priest, that is he takes very, very seriously the teachings of Christ in regards to the impoverished, the sick, etc., There is a HUGH pro life group at my church, and he and I privately had a conversation about it and its judgmental attitude and the fact that the most important thing to him was 'judge not lest ye be judged'.

Christ never spoke about homosexuality. Ever. Any 'interpretations' that he did were written by men who had never even met him. The thing Christ did speak about was divorce, which I find extremely interesting given that Texas has the highest divorce rate in the country and MA has the lowest.

My fundie FIL said to me the other day "What's up with CT?" (I am originally from there). Apparently he heard that CT was going to go forward with legalizing gay marriage. I don't know if that is true actually, but the way he said it almost made my head explode. I said, "Good. About time. and you know what Grandpa? when it goes into effect, my marriage to your son will be just as strong as it is tonight. The biggest threat to my marriage is the heterosexual woman who sets her eyes on my husband after her divorce, not a gay couple that want the same legal rights I have. Discrimination of any kind is immoral, and dammit having fought in WWII, you should know that".

Dinner was pretty quiet.

... I imagine so.

<< The biggest threat to my marriage is the heterosexual woman who sets her eyes on my husband after her divorce, >>

:thumbsup:

nobody, nobody can steer him from the vows we took. It would take an act of Congress.

Many have tried because he is such a nice guy, but he still comes back to me.


Perhaps I should get his glasses adjusted.....

:hug:

Their local church treats them very well. Catholics, like most religious people, tend to pick and choose which of the broader church's edicts and directives to obey.

I also know a Roman Catholic priest who has been involved in a committed monogamous relationship with a man since 1970.

Why do otherwise DECENT people choose to remain members of such a hateful and bigoted organization. (Sorry... "but-it-doesn't-happen-at-MY-parish" isn't a valid excuse.)

Silence = support.
Tithing = approval.
Membership = consent.

But the fact is, the Catholic Church is the only home that these victims of mass stalking and virtual slavery know.

Yes, the WASP establishment and all their minions are monitoring our bank accounts, blacklisting us, printing lies in the media, stalking our children, trying to prevent us from having happy families, making us physically ill, sabotaging us financially.

And you expect us to commit cultural genocide and join your Nazi-enabling Protestant family?

They're a bunch of lying, whoring racketeers who use the media to cover up the truth.

Yes, the real racketeers are the patricians. They just use Italians and Jews or Scientology or gays or whoever to do their dirty work.

Don't like what I'm posting? Stop covering for them and holding them accountable, and I'll quit embarrassing you.

Let my people go!

As far as tithing, the Catholic Church is the wealthiest charitable organization in the world, so I only donate the amount I think is necessary to keep the parish running.

And, I do frankly think it is important to keep a parish like mine running. The priest is a very liberal democrat and I think his homilies have turned more than one person away from *. He preaches constantly on the horrors of the war, how war is not the answer, that kind of thing.

The anti-gay thing is very, very troubling to me, and I have spoken out about it. Many years ago, when JPII was first installed, the highest ranking American in the Vatican was a family friend. He and I exchanged many letters about the situation of gays in the Church, but I don't think I ever got through to him.

Funny, but one of the things I routinely say is "Fundies who think their way is the highway are going to get a huge surprise if and when they get to Heaven and they discover that Jesus is gay".

... then they really don't have much of an incentive to abandon their hateful and bigoted ways. Business as usual.

And it's not so much that the church doesn't want to--ITSELF--recognize gay unions. That's fine, I guess. But for it to immerse itself so deeply into the LEGAL world, the POLITICAL world... they have crossed the line.

Frankly, I just don't know how anyone can put up with it.

I've said before, that the church won't listen to the complaints of the REAL PEOPLE and REAL FAMILIES that their policies and POLITICAL ACTIVISM hurt.

Similarly, the church certainly won't voluntarily change itself. The changes will only come when actual CARING human beings... rank-and-file-ordinary-everyday-Catholics... start to demand the changes. The only thing that will make an impact is the threat, and WILLINGNESS, to WALK AWAY and CUT OFF THEIR MONEY.

Unfortunately, the Catholic church knows that all they need to do is just "wait-it-out" and endure the grumblings. They know that most people won't leave... and as long as the money keeps coming in, THEY DON'T CARE.

<< so I only donate the amount I think is necessary to keep the parish running. >>

How do you know what percentage of your tithing STAYS in your parish? Can you honestly tell me that NONE of your money finds its outside your church and further up the ladder? Does the Vatican run itself ONLY on local contributions, or direct contributions?

Catholics are not obligated to tithe. And judging by the amount collected every week that is published in the bulletin, they are hanging on by the skin of their teeth. And, to give you a good example of how liberal he is, he won't even mention this situation this weekend. He is appalled by the treatment of homosexuals by the Church. And, he has been pretty vocal about it. Prior to being our parish priest, he worked in the Bishop's office.

And, I don't think it is just the Catholic Church. I have many gay and lesbian friends who have said that they feel welcome in their Catholic Church. I think the Church because it is run differently than the other Christian relgions is just better organized. Additionally, The Vatican is considered to be a country, so that is probably how they get around interfering in the politics of this country. But, remember when JFK was running, (not sure if you are as old as me, there sorry, A), and there was such a grave concern about his loyalty to the church and where he would stand....that concern went away pretty rapidly.

Now with the situation in Washington, it seems that religious leaders, of all demoninations have much more power and are much more willing to advance their own agendas because of the way * wears his religion like a jacket.

Believe me, I understand completely your frustration with this. I am angered by it as well. I am hoping that men like the priest of my parish, who openly criticizes the administration and its un-Christian policies will be the future of the Church. Maybe it is too much to hope for. I do know this. Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes you a car.

<< Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes you a car. >>

LOL!

The Church doesn't recognize them as such, thus they aren't. They must follow the tenets of the Church to be Catholics, but don't. They are Christians, and better Christians than the Vatican hierarchy, that's for damn sure.

Ex-Catholic and CCD teacher.

...most American Catholics of my acquaintance (including a number of priests and religious) wouldn't qualify under the standard the Vatican proposes (and you correctly re-iterate) of total conformance to the Magisterium.

I in no means wish to whitewash the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy's assault against gay people -- which I find repugnant -- but merely to point out that Catholics as a group are not monolithic. There is hope in the most unlikely of places.

<<but merely to point out that Catholics as a group are not monolithic.>>

But where's the outrage of these "independent" and fair-minded Catholics? If they say and do nothing, then they consent. If they remain members and continue to financially support such a hateful and bigoted organization, then they CONSENT and APPROVE.

...I happen to be Episcopalian and we're the fag hags of Christendom, so I'm not qualified to answer.

Fag hags of Christendom, I love it! I can't wait to tell my Episcopalian gay friend, he'll love it too!

Silence = death.

This.
Hurts.
Real.
People.

It's inexcusable and there are too many on this very board who are too caught up in just making and citing excuses. Every time.

Yep, that's a keeper.

Here comes the Theocracy! :scared:

I grew up in a Church that refused to acknowledge divorce. The reason they don't recognize divorce is because it is breaking your vows to one-another. Any relationships with anyone other than your spouse is a sin! I can't say that I recall any nationwide petition to BAN divorce! I look at the gay marriage situation the same way. If the Church believes it's a sin to have gay sex, that's their right to believe that, and to teach it to their congregations. They really NEED to stay out of the State's business, as they want the State to stay out of theirs!!!!

... about the importance of publicly condemning the boston church's cruel and dangerous agenda.

feel that way.

... I know that no church will be 100% accepting of gay folk, that's one thing.

But it's QUITE ANOTHER THING for the god damned LEADERS of the FUCKING CHURCH to INSTITUTIONALIZE their hatred and bigotry, and to SPREAD IT AROUND, and to ENCOURAGE it. Not only that, but to go BEYOND their church walls and create an overall climate that's HOSTILE and INTOLERANT of homosexuals NO MATTER if they attend that church or not.

The Catholic Church is LOATHSOME and BENEATH CONTEMPT. Vile!

... the Catholic church sure does seem to be the ones doin all the persecutin'. Fucking bigots! Hate mongers. Intolerant SCUM!

*starts singing*
The inquisition... what a show,
The inquisition... here we go,
I bet you're wishing... that we'd go away...
But the inquisition's here, and it's here to staaaaaaay!

*bows* Thank you. I'll be here all week.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Which never, ever oppressed anyone or sanctioned the killings of large swathes of Central and South American indigenous people.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

think gays are bad.

And our church services are WAY funner than theirs!

politics.

I wonder how they would react.

I have a friend who works for Harper Collins, which has a book out by a liberal Catholic priest who slams the Vatican for this topic. According to him, in about a month, the Vatican plans to formally begin weeding out priests who may be gay. I was told that they will be assembling an actual team of Vatican officials to visit American churches looking for priests who exhibit gay "tendencies". Whether or not the priests have admitted to being gay or have ever had gay relations is supposedly not even the criteria. They are using the molestation scandals as their justification, even though child molesters have historically predominantly identified as heterosexual (most are married with children), and pedophilia has never had a proven link to homosexuality. Mind you, this claim is only second hand, but if it is true, I think it's horrible. Gays are the scapegoats for of all kinds of "sins" in this political/religious environment, from failing marriages to molestation, to f'ing hurricanes hitting New Orleans. The Vatican is jumping on that bandwagon. Blame the homosexuals, but don't look at their own failings.
Ick.

about half of the seminary students are gay, and who knows how many priests are too.

What your friend told you is backed up by this article.

http://washingtonblade.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=2696A

Vatican official said last week that the upcoming "instruction" from the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education will reaffirm the church's belief that homosexuals should not be ordained.

In recent decades, Vatican officials have stated several times that gays should not become priests because their sexual orientation is "intrinsically disordered" and makes them unsuitable for ministry. A Vatican-directed evaluation of all 229 U.S. seminaries is underway, and is looking for "evidence of homosexuality" in the schools among other issues, such as whether their instruction keeps with church teaching. The evaluation was organized in response to the clergy sex abuse crisis.

Priests in religious orders throughout the country said in interviews that anger is building among their members about the prospect of a ban on gay seminarians. Some have said clergy are considering staging a strike on a Sunday, to show how critical gay priests are to serving the church. Priests who had not disclosed their sexual orientation to parishioners are now thinking about coming out and denouncing the idea of a ban. Others have talked about signing their names to a protest letter to the Vatican.

Estimates of the numbers of gays in the priesthood vary from 25 percent to 50 percent. About one-third of the 42,500 U.S. priests are members of religious orders.

It's happening NOW!

don't perform them!!!

The state (govt) can't force churches to perform marriages.

What the Catholic Church and other churches are doing is also dictating what other churches can or can't do. If a church determines that their doctrine permits the marriage of same sex individuals then the Catholic Church and other churches are interfering in their practice. Likewise the state is interfering with the practice of the church.

keep your god damned religion out of my government.
No pun intended.
Okay, maybe pun intended. :)

Letter to the Pope

"Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. As you said "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman." I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can.

When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them:

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and
female, povided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21 . In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
he period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1 . The problem is my neighbors.
They claim the o! dor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by
Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

If you hold the Bible as being inviolate, you can't pick and choose which verses you support and which you don't. Not even the Pope.

I'm not sure who originally wrote that letter but I thought it was worth reposting. :)

Please, catholics, stay out of my bedroom and let me do with my life what I will, and I'll stay away from your sacred palaces of institutionalized bigotry.

... I guess even THIS overt Catholic hate and Catholic bigotry can't be defended and justified (or it would look awfully FOOLISH and transparently BIGOTED to try and justify it.)

I guess it's a positive thing that the regular apologists are remaining silent... but I'm disappointed that there's not more of an outcry AGAINST the church leadership on this issue.

Silence = consent and approval.

They should Tax these Fuckers. If they want to be a business let them pay the corporate and property Tax

... thanks! :thumbsup:

Something about "Irish bigotry" or some such bullshit non-related at all.

Trying very hard indeed, too! And it's not working!

Still defending the indefensible.

:puke:

but you may not live in sin if you're a straight person. Then they try to force marriage on you.

I say the striaght people storm the Catholic church and demand fairness. Either make the gays have to marry too, or dump the requirement to be married for sex, clause.

Jk. Yes, they are a bigoted corporation.

and remarry ARE living in "sin". Unless, of course, you pay the Church a sum of money for an annulment, then it is ok.

...you also have to meet their criteria for grounds and, most importantly, proof to establish those grounds, because you are considered "still married until proven otherwise."

For example, even though the priests who looked over my case concuded that it definitely deserved an annulment, unless I could bring forward at least one eyewitness to repeated acts of sexual abuse that took place in private (the victim, of course, didn't count, being an "interested party" ), there was no way I could prove it before their court.

Yes, you bet I'm still bitter.

Religions are just political organizations with funny robes and ceremonies these days. The protestants give out 'voter guides'. I don't get it. Tax this political machine.

guidance on issues of importance to Americans. They've lost touch, played nasty games against the victims of priest sexual abuse of children, continually refuse to support women's position within the Church, their laws on birth control are impractical in today's world, and pro-choice is something they'll never agree to since it supports women, not men.

I love God but personally gave up on the Church numerous years ago when their Gestapo tactics finally got to me enough to stop supporting them financially and then eventually thru regular attendance at Mass. The last time I was in a church was over a year ago when we buried our mother. Out of respect for her beliefs, we had a funeral Mass and used a Catholic cemetary to place her body next to our Dad's.

You stood up for what you thought was important. You made a statement with your purse and with your feet. Good for you! :thumbsup:

~Allen

Sorry about your mom... I think a service that SHE would have wanted was the correct thing to do to.

Now, I am a Democrat and an Episcopalian. I hate the intolerance in the catholic faith, and I cannot abide my catholic friend who hate so many of their fellow human beings over subjects that are NONE of their business.

Thank God for the Episcopalians.

If you don't like the one you're in, find another! And thank the constitution that nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to be a member of any certain one.

I find it hard to believe that there were only 25,000 people in Massachusetts at Mass over the last three weeks.This petition may not have as much support as some here think it does. We Catholics are a diverse bunch, but our hierarchal structure doesn't allow an outlet for discussion. For some, any suggestion for a need for change is sufficient for a charge of heresy. I've even been chided over at the Catholic Orthodox group on DU for expressing disagreement with the bishops. It all boils down to this: if you believe in Jesus Christ and believe that the Church (the Church, not the hierarchy)is part of his on-going presence in our lives, no number of ass holes is sufficient to make you leave.

People who brag about how Catholics are a "diverse bunch" of people, just don't understand the impact that the institution of the Catholic church ITSELF has in contributing to the overall climate that's HOSTILE to gays.

<< This petition may not have as much support as some here think it does. >>

"Oh that little thing? Just ignore it. It means nothing." ???!!!

I think it has MUCH MORE support and a MUCH BROADER effect that many Catholic apologists think (or that they are willing to admit) it does.

Isn't the FACT that it EXISTS AT ALL enough? Doesn't the fact that the Church is so openly and unashamedly HOSTILE towards the rights of gays bother anyone?

Instead of making excuses and trying to sweep it under the rug with the "its-not-so-bad-as-you-think" nonsense, why don't Catholics actually DO something meaningful??? WHY??

Another important consideration is the fact that the OVERT actions of the Church influence and justify the bigotry and hatred of NOT JUST CATHOLICS. Other non-Catholics see how Catholic leaders treat homosexuals... and they see that their hatred is somehow justified. Or they become desensitized to it, and they are less likely to CARE about the hostility demonstrated by others.



<< We Catholics are a diverse bunch, but our hierarchal structure doesn't allow an outlet for discussion. >>

Perhaps so. But that doesn't mean that the ordinary folks are completely impotent and muted. They may not be able voice their complaints and dissatisfactions very easily... but they DO have a very effective means of getting the attention of the church leaders. Their FEET. Their PURSES.

I'll bet if there were enough Catholic who actually CARED enough about the church's bigotry and hatred towards homosexuals... and if those people STOPPED attending mass... or demanded that their names be removed from the membership roles... or STOPPED TITHING... I can guarantee you that from the Vatican on down, they would start to re-think their BIGOTRY.

<< It all boils down to this: if you believe in Jesus Christ and believe that the Church (the Church, not the hierarchy)is part of his on-going presence in our lives,>>

That sounds to me like the institution is more important than the teachings which are attributed to someone named Jesus.

<< no number of ass holes is sufficient to make you leave. >>

I'm sure the "assholes" in the Catholic church truly appreciate everyone who continues to approve of, consent to, and support their anti-gay bigotry and hate.

But I do wonder... Where would ordinary parishioners draw the line? How BAD would it have to be? How FAR would the church have to go with their anti-gay rhetoric and political activities?

What if the church supported IMPRISONING gays... would folks leave it? If the church supported EXECUTING gays... what THAT make folks leave? How much hatred and bigotry is "too much" hatred and bigotry for them?

How much church INSANITY could Catholics continue to ignore by repeating the "but-it's-not-happening-in-my-parish" mantra? How much church BIGOTRY can be justified by folks who continue to repeat the same-old "but-look-how-much-good-they-do-elsewhere" excuse?

Obviously the amount of bigotry, hatred, and political activism that we're witnessing right now is still "tolerable" and acceptable for most.

What a shame.

I didn't know it was possible for me to have an even LOWER opinion of the Catholic Church than I already had. It's clear to me that the Catholic Church knows NO LOWER LIMITS and they keep reaching for the BOTTOM. -- Disgusting.

A lot of us stayed in and ignored it and were labeled "cafeteria Catholics" (A label which apparently doesn't apply to those who approve of capital punishment despite Church teachings)

People have been getting mad at the hierarchy and leaving for centuries. The difference is that some of us have drawn the line in the sand and will stay and fight until we force a change in how the Church is run. My point is that not all Catholics agree with the right wingers and we're doing our best to move an entrenched bureaucracy. It may seem an impossible task, but 20 years ago if you'd predicted the collapse of the Soviet bloc you would have been thought to be a naive full.

Particularly when it comes to starvation because of overpopulation and disease control. The hostility towards gays and lesbians would certainly be diminished and the climate of intolerance and hatred would not be as bad. I mean... what kind of "church" uses such scurrilous language about people... calling them EVIL or coming from a culture of evil??

<< A lot of us stayed in and ignored it and were labeled "cafeteria Catholics" >>

He-heh! I can see how that would apply.

<< The difference is that some of us have drawn the line in the sand and will stay and fight until we force a change in how the Church is run. >>

They are up in their tower. Isolated. They don't care what you think. As long as you keep sending them food and supplies and gilded furniture, they'll NEVER care. Why should they? They have all that they need, and their myopic worldview will never change. They'll just wait you out until you give up.

People who continue to support the church despite its bigotry are causing their own defeat. It's just insane.

If I was fighting someone who had taken refuge in a tower, the last thing I'd be doing is sending them food and water and ammunition so that they could continue to fight ME. I'd cut them off. Cut off their supplies, cut off their funding.

You know... I keep hearing defenders of the Catholic church suggesting things like "not-all-of-us-feel-that-way" or "those-people-are-a-loud-minority"... etc etc.

If such claims are true, then imagine how shocked-and-awed the church hierarchy would be if these "progressive" Catholics just walked out en masse? -- But they don't. They stay. Their silent presence just empowers the Catholic church and reinforces its bigotry and regressiveness.

I suspect that the number of "progressive" Catholics who disapprove of the church bigotry might not be as high as some people are suggesting. Or if they do exist, they just don't care enough.

IMO, ALL Love is good Love and who are we (or they!) to judge?! :grr:
What bullshit....

Shine