Katrina's punch faces downgrade (to Cat 3)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0510040180oct04,1,1200287.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Hurricane Katrina might have battered New Orleans and the Gulf Coast as a considerably weaker system than the Category 4 tempest initially reported.

New information compiled by hurricane researchers suggests the system struck southeast Louisiana on Aug. 29 with peak-sustained winds of 115 miles per hour. That would have made it a Category 3 storm, still a major hurricane but a step down from the enormous destructive force of a Category 4.

Katrina might have further downgraded to a strong Category 1 system, with 95 m.p.h. winds, when it punched water through New Orleans' levees, severely flooding most of the city and killing nearly 1,000 people. The levees were designed to withstand a Category 3 storm.

If verified, the information, compiled by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Hurricane Research Division, could have chilling ramifications.

Notably, it would mean that if a Category 4 or a Category 5 hurricane were to hit the same region it would be even more catastrophic.

I'm major pissed off right now.

Puh-lease! How stupid does this adminstration think people are? Services still aren't reaching people in communities throughout the south. Evacuees aren't forgetting, people affected aren't forgetting, their families and those who've been affected throughout the country aren't forgetting that this was a full Category 4!

:grr:

jeezus it was still a cat 2 in jackson, mississippi, how stupid do they think ppl really are?

I feel better now.




Not.

:cry:

If they couldn't handle a 'weaker' Cat. 2.. then wtf would a 4 or 5 do?

I know they're lying sacks of crap.. but to me this makes them look even more at fault.


ugh

:eyes:

How stupid do they think that we are? Fer cryin' out loud, they had to outright steal the election. Do they think people will buy that load of crap.

How could/would they handle a category 4-5?

All we've heard since the Katrina hit was that those levees and other flood protection works were designed to withstand a category 3 storm and that the reason they failed was that the storm was at a minimum cat 4. (Remeber bush's quote : "I don;t think anyone could have anticipated that the levees would fail"). Well, not only did they fail they failed in a storm they were designed to withstand. And always remember, the city of NO or state of LA did not build those failed levees they were built by the US Army Corps of Engineers.

About those levees being designed to withstand up to a Cat 3. Katrina being a Cat 4 or 5 kinda got them off the hook for that. If this turns out to be true, then the Feds have some serious 'splainin to do.

That Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco are completely culpable for the devastation in New Orleans. I mean, after all, Katrina and Rita were the same strength hurricanes and look how much more organized the response in texas was, by comparison to Louisiana. Yep, the state deserves all the blame, just as Michael Brown stated.:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

The damage in Mississippi was so severe, I thought it would upgraded not downgraded.

camille was a cat 5, one of the strongest hurricanes of all time

camille was not a pimple on the butt of what happened to the gulf coast

they are lying

affected Mississippi. The problem in Louisiana was Gov't neglect.

The Bush Admin. drastically cut back U.S. COE levee maintenance money and the levees were not adequately maintained even to withstand a Category 2 hurricane. The results were predictable and the Administration was warned by the National Hurricane Center that there was extreme danger and major impacts could be expected. They chose not to respond to the warnings, and not only that, FEMA blocked evacuation aid and relief aid from the many states, cities, agencies, and countries that offered aid.

FEMA Blocked Evacuation & Relief Efforts - Compilation of Mainstream and Alternative Press reports

http://www.flcv.com/femabloc.html

So I guess news of the downgrade to Category 2 or 3 will not be offical for a few decades.

Our independent sees no news, sees no truth, if that news /truth does not come from the RNC/GOP/Bush government. I do not expect a NY Times story on this any time soon.

There was a method to forbidding the weather service speaking with the media. These jackals stop at nothing.

this is not even faintly true, i live in the greater new orleans area, & i have never seen WIND damage on this scale

forget the flood damage for a minute

the saffir-simpson hurricane scale is based on sustained wind speed

this storm was at a minimum a cat 4 & i'm guessing they will eventually learn it was a cat 5, there were areas where the instruments were destroyed, as in hurricane andrew, it took a decade to prove that andrew was a category 5

you cannot look me in the eye & tell me straight face this was a cat 3 or that the wind damage was not unusually severe because i can look around my neighborhood & see the truth

yes, fema is incompetent, yes, the feds were thieves who didn't properly repair our levees & floodwalls but that is a different issue

if we are now going to pretend that this huge, huge, HUGE powerful wind event didn't happen, i wash my hands of DU because you guys are hopeless

the nat'l weather service is under attack by an effort to privatize, they may have to go along to get along

but anyone who tells you the wind damage in new orleans is minor is a goddamn liar & i'll tell you that straight to yr face

you should be ashamed, i know too many good ppl who do not have a roof on their house, that is caused by WIND my friend

don't you dare call this minor, it makes andrew look like a joke

Bullshit. I have been through eight hurricanes and you don't get 20 to 30 foot storm surges in a Cat 1, 2 or 3 hurricane. Only a Cat 4 to 5 can produce that kind of surge. A Cat 1 will give you 3 to 5 feet, Cat 2, 4 to 8 feet and a Cat 3, 5 to 10 feet. Only a 4 or 5 will give you over 10 feet. Also, a Cat 1 through 3 will only go inland 1000 feet to maybe...MAYBE a 1/2 mile. Katrina hand a storm surge in some areas SIX miles inland. It was at least a Cat 4 and I am sure in the future will be classified a Cat 5. There were numerous reports of structures that survied Cammile that are not there anymore. Enough said!

FEMA focused on Media Spin and Control of Media rather than Emergency Response

Media Manipulation by Bush Administration regarding Katrina:
Touring the breached 17th street levee site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment. . http://www.fromtheroots.org/story/2005/9/3/19542/97952

The open-air food distribution point Bush visited in front of the cameras Friday was torn down immediately after the president and the herd of 'news people' had left and that others which were allegedly being set up were abandoned at the same time, according to German TV. http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/002504.html
Hundreds of City Fire Fighters from all over U.S. volunteered to aid New Orleans but were only used as props for President Bush’s photo ops. From all across the nation, local fire departments have sent firefighters -- many of them trained in emergency medicine and search-and-rescue techniques -- to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina. The Federal Emergency Management Agency requested the help. But when the firefighters arrived in Atlanta, loaded down with the firefighting gear FEMA told them to bring, they were sent to a hotel to wait. Some of them have been waiting for three or four days now. Some have been assigned to sit through an eight-hour class on topics that included sexual harassment. And some have been dispatched to the disaster area to work as human props behind George W. Bush as he toured the destruction. http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html?blog=/politics/war_room/2005/09/07/firefighters/index.html
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html?blog=/politics/war_room/2005/09/07/brown/index.html

WASHINGTON -- The government's disaster chief waited until hours after Hurricane Katrina already had struck the Gulf Coast before asking his boss to dispatch 1,000 Homeland Security employees to the region -- and gave them two days to arrive, according to internal documents.
Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, sought the approval from Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff roughly five hours after Katrina made landfall on the morning of Aug. 29. Brown said that among duties of these employees was to "convey a positive image" about the government's response for victims.

The same day he wrote Chertoff, Brown also urged local fire and rescue departments outside Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi not to send trucks or emergency workers into disaster areas without an explicit request for help from state or local governments. Brown said it was vital to coordinate fire and rescue efforts. (this would insure there was no aid)

Meanwhile, the airline industry said the government's request for help evacuating storm victims didn't come until late Thursday afternoon. The president of the Air Transport Association, James May, said the Homeland Security Department called then to ask if the group could participate in an airlift for refugees. Wednesday, September 07, 2005 BY TED BRIDIS Associated Press
Brown exaggerated qualifications on resume and during confirmation hearings http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/09/10/brown/index.html

New Orleans levee protection needs lost out to Iraq funding
When flooding from a massive rainstorm in May 1995 killed six people, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA. Over the next several years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside. Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars. ...In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain ... http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002331.html

Even though the actual storm itself may not have been as intense as first projected.

I went through Frederic and Elena before I experienced Katrina. Those winds were more than 110. When I even think about the sound of the winds of Katrina mowing down the coast, I get angsty inside.

I won't forget that for a long time.

I don't understand where they are coming from on this. Are they saying it just suddenly dropped from 140 something just offshore to 110 at landfall?

Have they seen the damage? How can they say that? Everyone local who went through Camille said Katrina was worse.

i think it is a disgrace that some DUers will swallow every lie that comes along

camille, one of the most powerful cat 5s of all time, was NOTHING next to this

instruments were destroyed, for example in slidell, the instruments were completely destroyed, this is similar to what happened in andrew, it took 10 yrs before andrew was properly classed as a cat 5

katrina wasn't any gee-dee cat 3, the lies need to stop, if not in the wingnut controlled media, i wish they would at least stop here on a supposedly progressive site

up-thread i just responded to someone who thought wind damage from katrina was "minor," fuck, i'd love to have some of what they're smoking

thanks for your photos, my heart is crushed to see them because of the wonderful experiences i shared over many yrs in the copa and the grand, you will NOT be forgotten if I have anything to do w. it

From a few years back. I used to ride my bike to the Copa to play slots. It was my favorite casino. To see it sitting a quarter of a mile away from where it should have been, was creepy. It was like a big ghost ship and it was hissing. Someone said it was gas lines but I don't know. It was a big casino carcass washed ashore.

spawn hundreds of tornadoes, right? It's the damage from these tornadoes that are spawned that do a lot if not most of the damage, studies have found. The actually wind speed of the hurricane could be a lot less than the winds of the tornadoes, so the suggestion that the hurricane did not have as high wind speeds as originally presumed could be correct.

This is what happened during Iniki and Eva in Hawaii and Andrew in Florida. I was part of the American Institute of Architects (AIA) committee investigating this. We produced a couple extensive reports on the matter - one dealing with what happened (failed) and one dealing with proven methods of mitigating the effects thru better construction techniques (a lot of the building code's items weren't followed thru).

Katrina blew hard enough to take off a piece of the Superdome's roof! What are you trying to weasel out of by trying to make it looks like less than a hurricane? Chilling ramifications indeed!

:headbang:
rocknation

Notice that this bullshit came out right after the Bu$h Commerce Department gagged NOAA and the National Weather Service vis-a-vis contact with the news media. Oh, the fix! That is the Rove specialty. Watch them polish that turd Hurricane Andrew, Bu$h-1's partial undoing.

I rode out Hurricane Katrina 17 miles West of Slidell (where the eye passed). That storm wasn't a Category 3 at landfall. No way.

The storm had weakened to at least a Category 3 by the time it reached my house. Brad Panovich, a meteorologist working for WWL, said that there was an estimated wind gust of 144 mph in Slidell*. From what I understand ,but cannot confirm, most weather sensors failed before Katrina made landfall hence the estimates.

The hardwood trees in my area were all defoilated. Flying debris punched a hole in a nearby concrete building. There are shingles, trees, debris everywhere. The devastation after the storm was just staggering and my area didn't flood. Cat. 3 at landfall my ass.




*Here are the rest:

Katrina Winds Peak gust. (estimated mostly)

Mouth of the River 155 mph
New Orleans 136 mph
Slidell 144mph
Biloxi 135 mph

http://www.wwltv.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23438

as part of the post-mortem. They do this by assessing the way trees look, the way houses look, etc. Claudette from a couple of years ago was posthumously upgraded to a 2 from a 1, or at least I know they talked about it.

you are correct, as more information comes in, they can upgrade if there is proof of SUSTAINED wind

andrew was so strong it blew out the equipment, that's why it took so long to prove what anybody w. sense could see, it was a 5

& andrew wasn't a pimple on the butt of this storm, i'm sorry

they are playing politics

right before landfall. There was comparatively little damage in Port Lavaca. I drove there through Victoria several days after Claudette went in. There weren't many signs of damage both around Pt Lavaca and even Victoria only had some limbs down.

The 84-kt and 83-kt unofficial observations suggest the possibility that Claudette strengthened to a Category 2 hurricane as it was making landfall. This was not supported by the aircraft data, which suggest maximum sustained winds of 75-80 kt as the eye crossed the coast. Data from the NWS WSR-88D Doppler radars indicated winds of 95-105 kt between 5,000-10,000 ft in the northwest eyewall after Claudette made landfall. It is uncertain how to convert these winds to sustained surface winds over land. However, reduction factors derived from GPS dropsonde data over water suggest 85-90 kt sustained surface winds. A further reduction for land friction would reduce the radar winds to at or below the 75-80 kt range suggested by the aircraft data.

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/2003claudette.shtml?

great information!

The W Administration is handling this -- delay the info, let it seep out on the back pages, the way they did Iraq. The thumbprints are all over the media manipulation pattern.

Exaggerating the power of the hurricane and understating the number of deaths (combined with much ballyhoo from Limbaugh) both tend to blunt the degree of public disgust that would tend to be felt towards the W Administration.

Otherwise it's back to the 'let's not play a "blame game" finger-pointing at the local officials & the people for not evacuating routine'.

Another key is to get the entire swarm of FEMA patronage appointments, an army of W loyalists out of FEMA, not just Brown.

Don't expect much from the 'maximum feasible cravenness' media

Idiots.

nothing happening here.

BTW, here's 200 Billion to my buddies for their trouble.

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Commerce_Department_tells_Nationa_1004.html

The Department of Commerce has issued a blanket media policy to employees of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), requiring that all requests for contact from national media be first approved by the Department, RAW STORY has learned.

According to a leaked Sept. 29 email memo sent out to all NOAA staff, including employees of the National Weather Service (NWS) -- both of which are under the Department of Commerce -- employees must collect information from reporters and forward it to the Department.

While Teet is new to NOAA’s press office, starting in June of this year, he is not new to the PR field, having served as Community Relations Chief and External Relations Chief at Laughlin Air Force Base directly prior to joining NOAA.

Teet provided support in 1999 for spokeswoman Karen Hughes’ defense of then Governor George W. Bush’s National Guard record, claiming that training constituted “active duty.”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4969132

---

So the story is whatever BushCo wants it to be? :shrug:

I clicked on your link and got "error 404: File not found
The document you requested is not found."

Do *'s propagandists read this board and censor stuff?

their websites and scientific contacts? Or are those also going behind the curtain? Is this how Bush (Santorum) will get rid of the NWS so accuweather will get priority?

What the hell is this about? Why should NOAO or NWS have to get permission to talk to the media?

won't go beep! beep! like it does now because the NWS has determined there is a severe strom cell in your area and you need to take cover. I guess now they will have to send a memo in triplicate to someone's pimply nephew nepotism hire in the "Community Relations" department of the Department of Commerce to ask if it's ok to "alert the media".

Rick Santorum is the lead boob on the push to destry NOAO and NWS and replace them with accuweather. I think he will be voted out next go round, but that may be too late. We need hearings on this BS right now.

When crap like this happens, I always wonder - do Republicans live under a different sky, feel a different sun and breathe different air?

severely flooding most of the city and killing nearly 1,000 people. The levees were designed to withstand a Category 3 storm.

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN DURING THE HURRICANE...IT HAPPENED 2 DAYSAFTER THE STORM!!!! :wtf:

...and the LEVEES didn't fail...a floodwall did. :argh:

Just like that episode of Dallas.

The chocolate ration is going up too.

it was less than Cat 4, but what do I know.

To repugs I know, this is final proof that "those people" were whining about nothing, and it can all safely be forgotten.

because you can't trust the media or the government.

http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/at200512.asp?imgfeature=verification&textfeature=track



Tracking info for Hurricane Katrina
Time Lat Lon Wind(mph) Pressure Storm type
------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 GMT 08/23/05 23.2N 75.5W 35 1007 Tropical Depression
03 GMT 08/24/05 23.4N 76.0W 35 1007 Tropical Depression
09 GMT 08/24/05 24.0N 76.4W 35 1006 Tropical Depression
15 GMT 08/24/05 24.7N 76.7W 40 1006 Tropical Storm
21 GMT 08/24/05 25.6N 77.2W 45 1002 Tropical Storm
03 GMT 08/25/05 26.0N 78.0W 50 1001 Tropical Storm
09 GMT 08/25/05 26.2N 78.7W 50 1000 Tropical Storm
15 GMT 08/25/05 26.2N 79.3W 60 997 Tropical Storm
21 GMT 08/25/05 26.1N 79.9W 75 985 Category 1 Hurricane
03 GMT 08/26/05 25.5N 80.7W 75 984 Category 1 Hurricane
09 GMT 08/26/05 25.3N 81.5W 75 987 Category 1 Hurricane
15 GMT 08/26/05 25.1N 82.2W 75 981 Category 1 Hurricane
15 GMT 08/26/05 25.1N 82.2W 80 981 Category 1 Hurricane
15 GMT 08/26/05 25.1N 82.2W 100 971 Category 2 Hurricane
21 GMT 08/26/05 24.8N 82.9W 100 965 Category 2 Hurricane
03 GMT 08/27/05 24.6N 83.6W 105 965 Category 2 Hurricane
09 GMT 08/27/05 24.4N 84.4W 115 945 Category 3 Hurricane
15 GMT 08/27/05 24.5N 85.0W 115 940 Category 3 Hurricane
21 GMT 08/27/05 24.6N 85.6W 115 945 Category 3 Hurricane
03 GMT 08/28/05 25.0N 86.2W 115 939 Category 3 Hurricane
06 GMT 08/28/05 25.1N 86.8W 145 935 Category 4 Hurricane
09 GMT 08/28/05 25.4N 87.4W 145 935 Category 4 Hurricane
12 GMT 08/28/05 25.7N 87.7W 160 908 Category 5 Hurricane
15 GMT 08/28/05 26.0N 88.1W 175 907 Category 5 Hurricane
21 GMT 08/28/05 26.9N 89.0W 165 902 Category 5 Hurricane
03 GMT 08/29/05 27.6N 89.4W 160 904 Category 5 Hurricane
09 GMT 08/29/05 28.8N 89.6W 150 915 Category 4 Hurricane
15 GMT 08/29/05 30.2N 89.6W 125 927 Category 3 Hurricane
21 GMT 08/29/05 31.9N 89.6W 75 960 Category 1 Hurricane
03 GMT 08/30/05 33.5N 88.5W 60 973 Tropical Storm
09 GMT 08/30/05 34.7N 88.4W 50 981 Tropical Storm
15 GMT 08/30/05 36.3N 87.5W 35 985 Tropical Depression

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