In Vermont, a revolution to secede has devotees (Boston Globe)

I thought California might "lead" in this area right after the election, but it looks like Vermont might be the first to try and do a secession proposition. Interesting. California would certainly have more clout and the ability to fend for itself outside of the U.S. government, so if it becomes necessary, I hope that California can join in and make it more realistic. But for now, I'd still like us to fight for getting these guys impeached and seeing if we can get that to happen. If the courts and the Bushies find a way to shut all of this down, then maybe what Vermont's doing might be the next step.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2005/10/30/in_vermont_a_revolution_to_secede_has_devotees/

In Vermont, a revolution to secede has devotees

By David Gram, Associated Press | October 30, 2005

MONTPELIER -- A car parked outside the State House bore a bumper sticker saying, ''Regime change begins at home."
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Inside, about 100 Vermonters gathered in the House chamber for the Vermont Independence Convention -- devoted to Vermont creating a regime of its own.

If participants have their way, the state whose former governor was laughed out of the 2004 presidential race after the infamous Iowa scream is going to take what some call its wackiness and others call its sanity in a crazy world and go home.

Go home to the 14 years in the late 18th century when Vermont was neither a British colony nor one of the original 13 states but was an independent republic.

Texas gets more notice as a Lone Star State, but Vermont shares with it the distinction of having gone it alone for a while. Friday's event was steeped in that history, and an urge to try it again.

...

and it's got spunk and by God I like spunk :)

And who knows, they may be prevailed upon to take Vermonters in...

I don't know what you call poverty-stricken. I lived in New England a while, and although Vermont is hardly as affluent as some of its neighbors, it's hardly Appalachia.

especially along the Canadian border. Driving through rural Maine would really open your eyes.

Like it says in the New Testament, "The poor you will always have with you." (Hopefully, that won't set off anybody on the board, and hijack the thread.)

Maine has more than a few decaying cities and towns, too; we drove through them on our latest vacation there. Any time a state relies on tourism, there are problems -- tourism wages are crap. Period. And the manufacturing goes down (you guys have lost a lot of your timber mills, no?) Maine sure has some swell people, though. Made us sad to see that some were struggling, although, like you said, we weren't in the rural areas.

Rural poverty is an invisible problem in many parts of the country. Not "sexy," I guess, like the urban stuff. Just a few hours from Chicago (where I live) there are people living in houses with dirt floors, no indoor plumbing, few if any jobs. And Chicagoland, as you may know, is quite affluent.

So I apologize; I didn't mean to insinuate there were NO rural poor in New England. It's just that I hate anybody dissing the New England states for any reason.

state of PA-----garbage jobs, housing market sky high for shitball jobs. They dont call it Taxsylvania for nothing.

All we'd have to do is move over the border to Illinois.

You go, Vermont!

Like our OP, I am a Californio and would be happy to send Wash. DC off on it's own. Last stat I saw said we only get 81 cents back for every Federal tax dollar we pay. I want all those 19 cents refunded!

(I've forgotten his name at the moment) do an updated version. I'd be very interested to see his take on how that idea would translate into modern day, 21st century America.

more than we need... well, let's say "certain other states".

The "legality" of this, as I recall, was settled in 1865, unfortunately.

Also, could Vermont survive on its own? Perhaps a ...gulp!... confederation... with say Maine, Massachusetts and New York ,might make for a more viable entity. Trade wise and military wise, that is.

If Vermont secedes, will they have more pull in combating pollution emissions in the rust belt than they do now?

We Love Vermont! :loveya:

Besides, apart from Queen Liz II's portrait on our 20 dollar bills, and our political system, we're not really anything close to a British colony anymore... Independent without a fight we've become! :)

Welcome Vermont Anytime! LOL

I would definitely be moving there.

The legality of session was settled in 1865 but another republican president. I have been to Vermont, it would not be hard to hold it by force.

I like the idea myself, but I've got to clear it with higher-ups so I need some ammunition.

and Green Mountains with colorful trees in the fall. Oh, and there's Ben and Jerry's ice cream. :-)

was actually "legal". But then again the victors always get to decide what is legal.

was indeed legal.

Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution states :

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation;".

Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution states :

" To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;"

By violating Article I, Section 10, the rebel scum states were creating an insurrection, which Congress is empowered to put down.

Now, if Vermont were to try and secede and then become part of Canada, then these same Constitutional laws would authorize the federal government to retake Vermont by force.

Just imagine everything both sides would have been spared if we had just let them go. No Reconstruction, no Dixiecrats, no Nascar, and Bostonians would still think "cracker" is something you crumble into your soup.

on the North American Continent. yes, it may not have been the sole reason for the war, but it was certainly a nice side benefit.

so, I'll take NASCAR in exchange.

your ass.

"Lost Cause" diehards calls it that anymore. So maybe you should "lighten up" yourself?

is another persons terrorist. I just don't see war as the solution to any problem short of actual invasion and then only in defense. I may be wrong but the firing on Fort Sumter was to drive an invader from the land....but that's just me.

Actually I think the South was totally wrong in almost every respect, especially slavery. However I think we would be a stronger country today if states had the right to leave the "Union". The fact that the citizens have no choice puts them in a place that is something like prison or could it be sort of like ....slavery? I really don't want fundie, nazi, repugs in my country. I would very much like them to have their "own space" and I could have mine.

Oh yeah I also love to "stir the pot" as it were. My hope is to get everyone to think not just accept.

they shouLd join with quebec.

They usually speak English in big cities like Montreal, but in the rural areas, they usually only speak French. Better bone up, Vermonters.

I wish I had read it a lot sooner.

I decided after reading it that my biggest mistake was not realizing that ALL governments are temporary. Eventually they will all get corrupt and all have to be overthrown. I think our forefathers did know that when they wrote the declaration of independence.

Our gov has well surpassed itself. They've robbed us to the tune of trillions and for generations to come. It's too corrupt. It's time to start over. Luckily we can use the same constitution again. We just have to oust all of the leaders.

And yes, I realize in Animal Farm, they just let it keep getting worse and never had the revolution or started over.

The founding fathers had exactly that intention when they wrote the constitution. They would have been shocked that we let it go this far.

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of tyrants and patriots alike." - Thomas Jefferson

Vermont might have company if the Free State Project ( http://www.freestateproject.org/ ) gets off the ground.

I think what Benson Scotch says makes sense. I hope Vermont doesn't secede because we need the influence of their common-sense liberalism to keep this country from going totally over the edge.

We have travelled the blue and the black roads in our travel van for months at a time, through twenty eight states, talking to anyone and everyone we came into contact with, and I have never seen one of them that equals the lush green rural, small town beauty of Vermont. I have not seen much of the western states, except for California, but in my estimation, of the ones I have visited up close and personal, Vermont has them all beat. Maine, also beautiful especially on it's rocky coast, also has the reputation of being an independant state--we were settled by onry fishermen who could have cared less about religion, but were more interested in catching fish and they have been reported as being a rowdy bunch. Massachusetts was once a part of Maine, lol, until Maine declared it's independance in 1820--not out of any ire, but because crucial communication with Massachusetts was becoming long and tedious--the news of our politcal plight taking days to get up here because New Hampshire was in the way.

Ummm - actually:

"In 1660, an English board awarded Maine to the Gorges family, but 13 years later they sold their interest to Massachusetts, which continued to control Maine until its statehood in 1820."

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h555.html

Sorry my Maineiac friend --- Being a proud citizen of The Commonwealth I just couldn't let that slide.

I think the Mainiac was joking.

"Massachusetts was once a part of Maine, lol,"

Of course, the notion of "control" by Massachusetts was pretty loose. The early Mainers ignored Boston whenever possible. Mainiacs have always been a bit less rigid about religion and centralized government than those people down in the Commonwealth.

The only thing we have in common is the hatred and contempt that we have between the Xtian Taliban and those that do not conform to their theology.

It's time to admit the great American experiment ended in dismal failure all thanks to religious intolerance.

I'll vote for secession!

1000 united nations than 5 united states.

Like the man above said, this question was settled by Lincoln. Something the Republican Party did right. Too many Americans died for this country to give up after less than 150 years.

I am not being serious here. But we sure do have a problem.

owes absolutely nothing to Lincoln. This isn't a president or a cabinet, but a bunch of jack-a-nape looters whose only allegiance is to themselves.

this issue was settled for 1865....;

Today is a new day....

I had heavenly dreams of my state, California, breaking free of all this Rightwing Freakishness <shiver>. But then I realized: if every person HAD to vote (like in some other countries) our outcomes might be different--more Left of Center. Didn't India have a 97%+ participation rate in the last election?

I fear that we have a citizenry that either takes its liberties for granted, or has become numbed out and apathetic.

I don't want them to vote. Also, the freedom to vote also means the freedom to ignore it all.

Seceding from madness seems prudent.

Everyone should read "Human Scale" by Kirkpatrick Scale

Seriously, we face irreconcilable differences. The right wingnuts believe life begins at conception, reasonable folk do not. The right wingnuts believe intelligent design is science, reasonable folk do not. The right wingnuts tell us we have no right to privacy, but reasonable folk expect that right. The right wingnuts believe the rights of business should trump the rights of individuals, reasonable fok do not.

These issues and others had divided the country. There seems to be no honest attempt to achieve a rational balance or compromise around which the country can unify. Thus, we are a people facing irreconcilable differences. It is time for a divorce.

The eastern part of our state is salvageable but western Iowa is religious nutland and i wouldn't miss it. If only we could join Minnesota, Wisconsin and Illinois in an alliance to repel Bushdom.

I've lived in "the land of Lincoln" for almost a year, and just told a friend yesterday that I miss the gentleness of Iowans. I was "confronted" (in Iowa we would say 'attacked"--and would never do it to one another) by colleagues for not being "over" my mother's death yet--it's been 3 months! Made me homesick for the good people of Iowa (who are still writing and calling to see how I'm doing).

You're right though--Steve King-land is a scary place. I've never understood what goes on there.

Still, if Iowa seceded, I'd move home--job or no. Unless you included Illinois in your federation, in which case I'm moving to Vermont.

I.O.W.A. Illinois, Only Without Assholes

... moving back too. Lived there myself for around 8 years and through my college days in Iowa City. Great town in the midwest! A few states surrounding it would need to join Canada for that to happen though I think.

Was at school there for grad level classes and was a TA. Always had a great time. Or often anyway. Being younger and coeds just discovering the Pill helped also.

it's not whether or not they secede -- it's putting the country on notice in a big way that something is very wrong.

and people are willing to go to creative lengths to get it{their lives} right again.

If these same people were on the other side, they would be militia nuts.

We're about to put the first socialist into the Senate. Its a fun idea to dream about even if it never comes to pass. Maybe we should have a state vote on it. :-)

Must finish grad school first, but was already planning on leaving the country after. Vermont is a lot closer than New Zealand and it is clearly full of like-minded people (to me, that is).

Used to live in New England. Love Vermont. Took the husband there for our honeymoon, and he loved it, too.

However, if the King of Vermont, or whatever legalizes weed, I'm there.

we can take our infrastructer with us, get out of this senseless war AND get healthcare all in one fell swoop! The heck with trying to make it on our own, let's just join a country who cares more about their people then fetuses.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

secession talk in all of New England, not just Vermont.

Google: Hartford Convention.

They talked about secession but rejected the idea.

The war ended not too long after they met.

cut off at the pass by Jackson's victory in New Orleans and the end of the war. The whole debacle so discredited the Federalist Party that they were essentially finished as a national party by 1820.

The South seceded which started the Civil War and most on this board refers to them traitors.

Over the years there's been talk of ecotopia (ie: CA, OR & WA), CA themselves, the Blue State secession and now Vermont...all to great support here.

Its just funny sometimes the way we view things when they are percieved as beneficial to us.

:)

In the south, it had to do with the expansion of the slave trade to the western territories and the south's fear that the north's "tyranny" over the South's slave institutions.


Whereas this present-day talk is not much more than talk and just a way of expressive our extreme idealogical resistance to the course of the "Red state" nation.

We need to keep Leahy and Jeffords.

your way is to take your toys and leave.

i don't even care any more but if they want to desert us in our time of need, who needs them, make it treason to sell them so much as one drop of grain up the mississippi river or one drop of oil drilled offshore the gulf coast

i'm done with cheap-ass cowards who want to solve problems by running away

vermont serves no purpose i can see anyway

now if california tries to run out on us, it should be civil war, just as it was civil war when the south tried the same thing, since they have actual resources, talents, and contributions to make to this country

why is it cute when a yankee does it, but a crime when a southerner does it?

these secessionists are cowards, scum, cheap, and selfish

america doesn't exist anymore- the 'united' states? bullshit-
If this is 'union' what the hell is division????

Screw anyone who isn't 'with' us eh??? That sounds just like *.

for as long as I can remember, which is more than 35 years. Nothing new here - it's mostly tongue in cheek and driven by the fierce independence that Vermonters pride themselves on.

Does anyone even bother to look at the facts? Here's a couple. In 2004, 180,000 plus Vermonters (59%)voted for Kerry and 120,000 plus (39% voted for Bush). Simultaneously, roughly the same number of voters supported the republican candidate for governor over the democrat, re-electing the chairman of the Bush/Cheney Vermont campaign and an avowed defender of the Iraq war.

Yep...sounds like their gonna be gung-ho for secession. Not.

I suppose its a fun thing to propose, sort of like dressing up on Hallowe'en and going "boo" -- no one is really scared but everybody gets a good laugh.

onenote

lol at the whole idea.

Bummer is it just provides ready amunition for the right wing to slander all dem. with.

It's a unique place...I'd buy a place there in a heartbeat if they seceded!!

a part of the land grant of New Hampshire- and NH fought to help Ethan Allen free the land from NY- soon after they did form a seperate republic- later called "Vermont"-.

The notion that Vt. 'secceded' is not an accurate one, since it was not 'Vermont' when the declaration of Independence was written-. It was not one of the original 13 colonies.

As for the claim that it was very 'involved' in the Underground Railroad- while no one knows for sure how many souls fled through New England for the assylum of Canada- the prevailing historical records show that most followed the rivers north in the states farther west than New England-

There WAS a very small island that formed a boundry between NH. and Canada- It was called the 'Island Stream Republic'- it was an accident of mapping out the legal boundries between our country and Canada-
Not a very great experience for those who lived through it-
And- We in Northern N.E. sadly still derive much of our commerce and operating ability from those red state rich people who come here to play, build McMansion 'cabins' or 'getaways' that help keep us going through the property taxes they bring in.

All this being said- I do think that Lincloln had it absolutely right- when he said "A country divided against itself cannot stand"- and that if we fall, we won't fall due to those who attack us from without, but from within-

This is INDEED a 'nation divided' and not over ONE issue- but over the fundemental concept of what 'America' is sposed to be- a land where wealth and influence grow fat off the sweat and suffering of the people while dictating morality and enforcing religious 'standards' through legislation. Or the one my ancestors fought, bled and died to establish.- (those rogue insurgents who dared want to have a chance to make something of themselves even if they didn't come from 'wealth'- and who sought to make a place where everyone had a 'chance' at living in peace, and freedom)

It IS time for us to face reality i believe. These states are NOT 'united'- and neither are the citizens that live scattered throughout them- and the differences are deep, serious, and deadly.

(edited because my initial post, and information was incorrect- Vermont did exist as a seperate entity- and NOT a 'part' of America when it was founded)

"a land where wealth and influence grow fat off the sweat and suffering of the people while dictating morality and enforcing religious 'standards' through legislation. Or the one my ancestors fought, bled and died to establish*.- (those rogue insurgents who dared want to have a chance to make something of themselves even if they didn't come from 'wealth'- and who sought to make a place where everyone had a 'chance' at living in peace, and freedom)"

Not to mention the distortion of the true teachings of Christianity--which is that the "meek shall inherit the earth"--abusing Christ's teachings in order to fatten the calf. These so-called Christians who care only about themselves and getting rich while casting aside the needs of greater society--they should all rot in hell.

P.S. *My ancestors too.

Madison was right, Calhoun wrong. Google Calhoun and nullification.