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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:15 AM
Original message
Appeals court clears way for Andrea Yates retrial
HOUSTON — The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals refused Wednesday to reconsider a lower court's decision to overturn Andrea Yates' capital murder convictions for drowning her children in a bathtub in 2001.

Harris County Assistant District Attorney Alan Curry said the case would be retried or a plea bargain considered. Jurors rejected Yates insanity defense in 2002 and found her guilty of two capital murder charges for the deaths of three of her five children.

"Andrea Yates knew precisely what she was doing," Curry said. "She knew that it was wrong."

Curry said if the case goes back to trial, he is confident Yates would be convicted again. Yates' attorney, George Parnham, did not immediately return a phone call to The Associated Press on Wednesday.
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa051109_wz_yates.42d0206f.html


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TheDebbieDee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. I've never understood why her husband was never.....
brought up on charges for "Depraved Indifference" or something.

He should have been hesitant to leave the children alone in her care or at least made sure she had help with the children.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I know --
His extreme religious viewpoint and "I want enough for a baseball team" attitude was a major factor in what happened. Andre Yates is behind bars for life and lives in mental agony every day. And old Rusty? He gets to go on dates.
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Guess what. He didn't murder his five children.
She sure as hell should be behind bars for the rest of her life.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Guess what? Neither did she.
She killed her children, she didn't murder them. There is a difference in intent and circumstances. The facts of the case, especially her mental health, show that she is not guilty of murder. And yeah, he did contribute to what happened.

Seriously: why do people in this country not understand/accept mental health diseases, only physical ones?
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
46. Because
they're assholes?

I'm just guessing here............ :)
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. hahahahaha
I love you.

:loveya:
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #55
106. Awwwww
How sweet to see you again. I hope all's well with you, redqueen.

I got it right, didn't I?

Yep.

Assholes.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #106
117. Oh yeah. You sure did.
Nice seeing you as well. :)

This is why I hate leaving the Lounge! Grrrr. :P
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
70. gigglegigglegiggle
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #70
108. Astonishing, isn't it,
how fast otherwise good and decent people are to blame mentally ill people for their illness?

That's a side of people that always half-frightens me and half-makes me want to push their soft heads into a wall and force them to work on their compassion.

Good fight, Lost. You did good here.

The Pussycat salutes you:

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #108
122. Thanks, OLL -- you too
And, I salute teh Pussycat!
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #108
129. I salute the pussycat too!
:D
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #108
132. Yes, very astonishing to read posts
thought were from progressive and enlightened people that sound like freeper posts! Good lord!
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #108
143. Being somewhat compassionless, I am still astonished at the pure
ignorance of both the the legal and medical aspects of this case.

I don't even think you need to be all that compassionate to understand that psychosis isn't depression.

I hate to find felllow dems who are so dim.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #143
164. Very good point -- like I always say, Americans are vastly
undereducated about what mental illness is. It's not needing to talk to a therapist (and I think therapy is VERY important), it's a MEDICAL CONDITION. We get two kinds of illnesses: physical and mental, both treated by medical professionals.

And I agree, Mondo Joe -- to have so-called progressives equate Yates with CHARLES MANSON, IS CRAZY.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
159. Thank you. A severe, untreated schizophrenic is INCAPABLE of
committing "murder". They certainly can kill, and society should be protected from them if they do, but mental illness IS NOT A CHARACTER DEFECT. Time to stop this vicious hatred of the mentally ill when their disease makes them behave inappropriately.

Murder requires an intent to end someone's life. Andrea Yates obeyed the voices inside her head (her delusions), and to her the children were mere objects to be acted upon. NOT MURDER, unless you are a fundie who diesn't believe in mental illness, or rabid law-and-order type.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #159
165. Thank Goddess! Someone gets it!
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #165
171. I get it because of personal experience with it. My mom has been
severely mentally ill for over 20 years. Paranoid schizophrenia, bipolar with schizoid tendencies, whatever.........we don't know exactly what it is. But until she had a stroke last year and had to go into assisted living, we couldn't get a psychiatric evaluation of her (she was uncooperative, SEVERELY delusional,and in denial for decades). Now, in the final years of life and when her brain is damaged from the stroke anyway, she is on antipsychotics and so can actually relate to people and have a small sort of life again.....what a waste.

We have completely abandoned the mentally ill in this country.
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uniden Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. there's a difference between legal and moral responsibility
Good ol' Rusty was no prize, but legally he is not liable. He left a adult woman, his wife, with their kids. Many of us do the same each day. How do we know the person we leave home will snap? Think of this: If we have a fight, and you get in an accident 30 minutes later because you were upset because I was being mean, is that my fault (legally speaking)?

Being poor, homeschooling, having too many kids, or living in a bus is not illegal. What's scarier is the fact that he can find other women to date and marry.


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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. He KNEW she was a danger.
Gross negligence at the very least.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Because he knew she was whacked out
That's why HE TRIED TO NEVER LEAVE HER ALONE. And, he knew the cause of her imbalance -- having children. And what did he do when many medical professionals told him this? Continued impregnating her. Old Rusty wanted a baseball team! yuk.yuk.yuik. Then, he agreed to take her off meds, and kept her off, even when she became a danger to herself and their kids. He KNEW IT> He was selfish prick, and legally -- as well as morally -- was partly culpable.

And, they sure as heck weren't poor -- he made very, very good money. They had a nice house.

He loaded the gun, put it to her head, wrapped her hands around the trigger, and put pressure on her trigger finger.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. And HE should also be made accountable for driving HER
over the edge!

I can't believe how so many people don't see this.
So many people have "the lynch mob attitude" towards Andrea Yates, and yet her
obsessively procreating husband just walks away, and people "feel sorry" for him!:puke:

People really need to get an understanding of mental illness
and post-partum depression!
And I hope that this is addressed big time in her appeal.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
94. I agree with you all the way. He had a huge part in her illness
Living in a bus, wanting more and more children when she couldn't handle the ones she had, etc
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ernstbass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
44. Actually his mother was in town to help Andrea
He left the house at eight and mother - in- law was due at nine.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
134. Rusty contributed to the circumstances...
that formed the stage for Andrea to kill her children. Rusty knew his wife was seriously mentally ill and left his children in her care. He knew she was extremely unstable and took no action to get Andrea the kind of help she needed. This kind of indifference proved to be fatal to his children.

Andrea had a history of mental illness and Rusty STILL wanted her to have babies. He's nothing but a selfish, extremist bastard and I believe HE should be the one behind bars.

Maybe he's not "legally" liable but he sure in the hell is morally responsible.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
141. He left a PSYCHOTIC adult with their kids.
If you left your kids with a psychotic person would you bear any responsibility for the outcome?
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. YES YES YES YES YES. You asked exactly the right question. The
miserable little bastard is as responsible as she is. If she goes to prison that 'keep her barefoot and pregnant' asshold should go too.
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. You are absolutely trripping
I think that "murder my five children" asshole is probably more in the wrong. Mass murder, not good.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Him - not mentally ill. Her - mentally ill.
Still, he left her alone with those children.

Who is more culpable? The person with a mental problem? Or the person who leaves the mentally ill person with five kids, knowing full well that said mentally ill person is a danger to those kids?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. By the same token, the Drs. she went to didn't lock her up.
Rusty Yates, as repulsive as he is, is not a trained professional to know his wife is going to whack all his kids.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Did they suggest hospitalization? n/t
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. Andrea Yates wasn't "an asshole," as you so nicely put it
She had a mental disorder. EVERY doctor who examined her said she was totally delusional. Even the STATE'S doctor's. One said they had never seen a patient with such an extreme case.

Just because she knew what she did doesn't mean she was sane when she did it. Texas has a very repressive and narrow definition of inanity in legal proceedings. Very archaic.

Andrea Yates should be institutionalized, but not for capital murder.
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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
142. ummm...
Texas has a very repressive and narrow definition of inanity in legal proceedings. Very archaic.

I'd agree that Texas has a very repressive and narrow definition of inSANity in legal proceedings, but inanity? Texas has the broadest definition of inanity of any place in the world!

Great typo!
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #142
166. I didn't catch that! I concede -- you're right!
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
40. Bullshit, you are absolutely delusional (like he is/was). He KNEW
that she had serious serious mental problems that only got increasingly worse with every pregnancy. And he KNEW that she was in deep trouble right at the time that she killed those kids. He had his mother helping to care for them sometimes because of how ill she was. But did he make any effort of his own to safeguard them or her? Hell no, the slimey little rat watched it all unfold and then he played VICTIM.

What she did was wrong but she at least has an excuse. A mitigating factor shall we say. He has NONE.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
48. I agree! And she'd had problems with postpartum depression
before the last child was born.

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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
93. same here; that guy was not helping that poor woman
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
97. Kid killing wife is nuts: throw husband in slammer.
Got it. Brilliant.

I agree she is nuts and that ought to have mitigated her sentence, even perhaps have eliminated it, although texas law disagrees. However throwing the husband in jail for the lunatic actions of his wife is a bit over the top. In fact it is stupid.

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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
99. It all was so sad.
He had all the power over a poor ill women and the children die and he goes and gets a new wife I bet. And he will find the same type who just can not seem to help them selfs. I often wonder where these men and women come from as I had both girls and boys and they always had a mind of their own.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. He signed up for a Christian singles dating group a while ago
The MSM reported.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. Good -- she deserves the retrial
And she also deserves a different sentence.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. O'key. Lets say she is let out. What is she going to do?
Her husband had divorced her. Do you envision anybody hiring her to work as a nurse? I sure wouldn't want nurse Yates anywhere near any patients. Do you think she can manage to live outside of prison?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
71. What the heck are you talking about, lizzy?
You're really good at putting words into people's mouths. I never said she should work as a nurse. I also never said she shouldn't be institutionalized for the rest of her life. But, she legally deserves another trial and another sentence, and her time should NOT be served in the Texas prison system.

Geez... can't wait to see how you spin what I just wrote. Probably that she should be a nurse at a children's hospital or something....

Glad to see compassion and knowledge about mental illness on DU. Does my heart good, y'all.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #71
90. WTF is the difference? She is getting treatment in prison.
She is in a mental ward.
I see that you envision her locked up in the cell. It's bullshit.
She even has her own freaking garden in prison. She likes everybody there. You and your good intentions-do you think this woman should be subjected to a new trial? Has to appear in court every day for god only knows how long? Look at the pictures of her murdered children again? Well, if that is what you wanted, you sure got your wish.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. What kind of idiot is that DA?
Hello? Postpartum depression? Does this guy know how to read?
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Vogon_Glory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Perhaps A Practitioner of Voodoo Medicine
Perhaps the DA is a good little Republican and believes all the Radical Right's notions about medicine and medical care--like the idea that sexual orientation is a result of environment and not heredity, that HPV vaccines lead to promiscuity, that birth control devices lead to abortion, that George UU Bush's tax cuts will keep us safe from pandemics, that shorting international health funding will stop disease in Africa and South America, that alcoholism and drug addiction are caused by weak moral character, post-partum depression doesn't exist, and that mental illness is the result of Satan talking in our right ear. He or she might not be, but he or she seems to be acting like he or she does.

Personally, I think that ALL Republican campaign signs and bumper stickers ought to have "bio-hazard" decals super-glued on top of them.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Thanks.
I agree completely. Sad that so many progressives seem to agree with her sentence.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Maybe it's you who is an idiot. Mental illness and legal insanity
are not the same thing. Plenty of people are mentally ill but sitting in prison as we speak.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Or maybe not.
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 12:03 PM by redqueen
That technicality makes absolutely no sense at all.

But go ahead and defend it while you can. Eventually we'll have sane laws and people who don't deserve to be punished along with the willfully violent criminals won't be.

And on edit, nice artful personal attack there. Be proud.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. How about calling a DA an idiot? That didn't bother you...
As for people who don't deserve to be punished and some sort of "willfully violent criminals"-LOL. How many people do you know that can be considered completely normal?
Everybody got something wrong with them. Granted, some more than others, but to decide that someone doesn't deserved to be punished because they got a screw lose-well, that's going to empty all the prisons.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Is the DA here?
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 12:09 PM by redqueen
*I* didn't break any rules.

There's a big difference between someone with a few neuroses and major postpartum depression. The fact that you're trying to equate severe postpartum depression with "something wrong with them" type stuff speaks VOLUMES.

Do you really believe that people with severe mental illness should be locked up in prisons with all the real criminals?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. So, if someone isn't here, it's fine to call him an idiot?
How do you know he doesn't post here, LOL.
She might have had sever postpartum depression. That doesn't mean she is legally insane. She might be paranoid schizophrenic. That doesn't mean she is legally insane. Our OH sniper, who is paranoid schizophrenic, has plead guilty and is serving time right now. So, calling DA an idiot because he is going to retry her doesn't speak highly of your intelligence.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
56. Read the rules.
I'm so done with you.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
151. Michael Schiavo not being here never stopped your slander of him.
Did it?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #151
167. OOOOH! snap snap! I should have remembered that
Yup, Shiavo took a regular slandering from certain posters... some on this thread. Good memory, Mondo.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
138. That doesn't make it right....
Think about it---don't you think mentally ill people should be treated in hospitals? Prisons are not the right place for these people because they are not equipped to deal with severe mental illness.

Andrea is seriously, seriously, mentally ill. She is so delusional that she doesn't remember killing her children.

She clearly didn't willfully and knowingly murder her children. She thought she was saving them; that's how sick she was. She was psychotic and in a psychotic state people can't be held responsible for their actions.

THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING. When she's medicated and under strict supervision she may be able to function but it's unlikely that someone with her type of mental illness could ever function in society without constant monitoring.

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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #138
152. Yes, I think mentally ill people should be treated in hospitals.
And it would be nice if money grew on trees too.
The way the system works, people found not guilty by reason of insanity can be released from the hospital if the Drs. declare them cured.
There are many cases where so-called "cured" people have been released from hospitals, only to murder again. I believe Andrea Yates should be locked up for the rest of her life, which might not happen if she is send to the hospital.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #152
153. There are many cases? How many people found not guilty by reason
of insanity were released from treatment and went on to kill?

How many exactly?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #153
158. I don't know if anybody keeps track of how many there actually
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 11:05 PM by lizzy
are, but any case is too many. For instance, a man who killed his disabled sister is released after 4 months in a mental hospital, only to kill his girlfriends young son by putting him in oven. Happened in Texas too, by the way.
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/278-05122005-488203.html
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Punkingal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
156. And they shouldn't be...
They should be in a hospital, just like they would be if they had cancer or some other life-threatening illness. Because mental illness ROBS people of life...they are just still walking around. And the legal definition for insanity is totally full of shit! Anyone who has voices talking in their head is not responsible.
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #156
161. Anyone with voices in their head to kill all of her children is a threat
What will the voices say next?

This woman is getting treatment and deserves a new trial. But I hope that this mass murderer is never granted freedom.
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Punkingal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #161
162. I'm not suggesting she should be set free...
She should be somewhere getting the treatment she needs.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #161
168. Again, she is not a mass "murderer"
She killed her children, she didn't murder them.
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Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. She killed her children
End of story. She should be in prison for life and she is. Blaming her husband and blaming her post partum depression won't work. Lots of women get post partum depression and don't kill their kids.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Yes and lots of people are psychotic and don't kill anyone either.
That doesn't mean that those who do are any less deserving of special consideration due to their illness.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
36. Good post! n/t
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. Andrea Yates had postpartum psychosis, not "depression"
She had it after the previous child, but he got her pregnant again anyway. There were other serious mental problems, even without the extra strain.

Andrea Yates may well be institutionalized for most of her life. But the Texas Department of Corrections is not the place for her.

The story is not over just because you say so. For example--we'll probably see a story about her ex remarrying to start another family. I wonder if he voted "Yes" on Proposition 2--to protect the sacredness of marriage in Texas?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Betcha a buck he did
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
47. Thank you. What she had was not simply
a light case of the blues. Even after she got arrested and was in jail Rusty was inquiring as to the possibility of conjugal visits. Know what for? So he could knock her up again. No he didn't kill his children but what he did is no different from leaving your kids with someone that has a loaded gun and a short fuse and knowing it. Andrea is certainly not blameless for her childrens deaths but she belongs in a hospital getting treatment for her mental illness, not a prison. I am dismayed at some of the freeperish responses on this thread!
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #47
72. Majorly RWish... I agreed
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. You have no understanding of the case or her
diagnosis. Some many Americans don't "get" mental diseases. Would you blame a diabetic for something that happened due to their illness? No. It's the same here... it's just horribly, tragically unfortunate that innocent lives were lost because of medical and spousal screw ups and blindness.

She needed the proper meds as surely as a diabetic needs insulin. She needed to not have any more children as surely as a diabetic needs to stay away from sugar.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. She wouldn't take her meds. Even when prescribed,
she wouldn't take them. If diabetic is prescribed meds, but doesn't take them, it's his/her own damn fault if he drops dead. The same way, she is at fault because she wouldn't take those meds.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
52. You cannot compare physical illness with mental illness
You are comparing two different matters, and the comparison fail.

This woman is sick in a way that does not translate to comparing it to a physical disease that is treatable with medication.

A woman who hears voices telling her that her medication is poison - what do you do then?

A woman who hears voices telling her that her children are all murderous devils - what do you do then?

Clearly, her taking her medication should not have been her responsibility, but that of those taking care of her.

She should never have been left alone with those children. That's criminal negligence, right there.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
65. If you would read the post I was replying to,
the poster claimed mental illness would be just the same as diabetes. No good, ha?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #65
75. It is just the same -- physical and mental illness
And people in the country don't get it. And you don't either. And it's very sad you don't. No, I am not being snide, it IS sad, especially if anyone if your family is ever touched by anything as acute as this. I have personal experience with it, and it is devastating.

The lack of understanding and compassion on DU re: yates always amazes me.

Since the new rules say I can tell you I'm putting you on ignore, let em say it" I'm putting you on ignore. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.

Dietz lied.

Yates had a horrific mental condition.

That's all she wrote.

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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #65
82. I read the diabetes post as an analogy.
Also, I think some posters are trying to explain that just because we can't see outward signs of an illness (physical or mental), it doesn't mean the illness isn't real.

When I started reading this thread, I thought of my friend who's had 9 open-heart surgeries. Her 14" gnarled scar tissue isn't visible to the public, and people yell at her when she parks in handicapped slots.

Anyway, I just wanted to explain how I interpreted the diabetes analogy post.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. Good! Because that's how I meant it
I know someone like your friend re: handicapped spaces. My BIL was in the Army, and broke his back in several places during a bad parachute jump. He's 36, looks healthy and "normal," but can't walk too far at one time, so he has a handicapped tag. He gets cussed at every day.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #86
95. My friend finally bared her chest one day...
when a wiseguy yelled at her for using the handicapped parking space.

I think that guy learned a valuable lesson that day.

Mental illness is still way far behind in recognition and understanding. It's hard to believe that in this day and age, it's still a debate topic in the moral v legal category... and not a medical issue.

We know so little about the brain and how the mind works that I wonder if any of us has the right to form an opinion unless we have personal experience with a loved one who suffers from mental illness.

As for the diabetes issue, my uncle wore a bracelet that read: I'm not drunk.I'm diabetic.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. You put it perfectly:
"it's hard to believe that in this day and age, it's still a debate topic in the moral v legal category... and not a medical issue."

And hehehehehhe on your uncle and friend....
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #65
101. You didn't read my post
I read what you were replying to, and you didn't respond to what LostinVA had written - that mental illness is a DISEASE. You took it to the "she didn't take her medications" level, which, as I've already pointed out to you, doesn't bear the comparison.

You want to blame the woman for a disease she has that makes it - I know you might not believe this - impossible for her to follow doctor's orders.

LostInVA is dead right on about all of this. You're just not reading carefully what she writes.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #101
118. I love you, OLL... let's go celebrate Kaine's win together
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #118
121. Back atcha, kid.......
........ and I'm buying!!

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #121
123. I won't say no!
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
59. No, she wouldn't take them because
SHE WAS MENTALLY ILL and therefore her mind was not working the way it should! How can you know to take your meds for your mental illness if you are mentally ill???? :banghead:
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
73. Not the same thing, but you know that
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #31
77. So, your logic:
Andrea Yates had a mental illness and could barely function, including having delusions. Taking her meds made her better. She didn't take her meds. Thus, it's her fault. So, let me get this straight: because the mentally incapacitated woman couldn't take care of herself, it's her fault she couldn't take care of herself. Oh boy.

:rofl:
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
160. WRONG. Her paranoid delusions spoke with a MUCH louder voice
than the humans around her did. You cannot talk a paranoid, delusional, probable schizophrenic into doing anything that goes against their delusions. When "she" killed her children, it was her delusions acting, and not her. When she would not take her meds (betcha she believed they were poison) it was her delusions acting, and not her.

People like you desperately need a loved one to become psychotic, maybe for 30 years like my mom. Maybe then you would understand.
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uniden Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. ok
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 12:25 PM by uniden
can a male use the "testosterone made me (rape her or kill him)" defense? Would you be as supportive to exploring that as a defense?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
57. How can you even suggest such a thing?
Gawd... just when I think people can't get any more ridiculous.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. There's so much intolerance for the mentally ill
in this country; it is just sickening. And then there is the husband's role in this. He bears some responsibility, at least morally. he should feel guilt and shame the rest of his life about it. I can't imagin anyone wanting to date an asshole like that. I hope he dies alone. But you just knoe some fundie woman will hook up with him sooner or later.

Unfortunately being a prick is not grounds for imprisonment. If it were , half the population would be in jail.
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uniden Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. really?
"Biologists cite the male hormone testosterone as a kick-starter for aggressive behavior in men. While the hormone affects male attitudes and the propensity toward violence, they stress that as humans, we make individual choices whether to be aggressive or not."
http://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/studyg/origins.html

you can find several papers here: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=testosterone+linked+to+violence

Some hormones cause the Postpartum depression, and soem others cause violence. Most with Postpartum Depression, just as those with testosterone, don't kill, but some do. Why not explore both issues at trial? Why the double standard? Maybe a rapist or a killer was a prisoner to the hormones too, and deserves to go to the mental hospital, or just let go?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. key words:
"we make individual choices whether to be aggressive or not"

Jesus Christ... you're honestly equating rapists and killers with women suffering from postpartum psychosis.

:puke:
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. A know -- I second the vomit "smiley"
Sickening.
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uniden Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #74
87. we make individual choices whether to be aggressive or not
sure we do, that's why most women don't kill their children if they're depressed.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #87
102. Not depressed... PSYCHOTIC
Sinking in yet?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #87
137. Is there a reason you didn't bother to get the least little bit informed
before spouting off on the topic?

If you had chosen to be informed, you'd know she was PSYCHOTIC, not depressed.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #137
155. Could she have been both depressed and psychotic?
:eyes:
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #155
157. She could be brunette and psychotic too, but only one of those
factors into a legal defense.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
76. Give me a break -- testosterone isn't a mental illness
Go play someone else.
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uniden Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #76
89. not it's not
and no one claimed that. Read the post again.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #89
105. An overabundance of testosterone does not make the person mentally ill
neither does it make them PSYCHOTIC, as Yates was.

This is pathetic.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #105
109. An overabundance of testosterone makes them
MARTHA STEWART!!!!!!!!!!!!

<screaming>

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #109
119. gigglegigglegiggle
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #89
133. I hate to bust your party, but
Who said anything about Andrea Yates having a testosterone problem?:wtf:
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
49. Diabetes is not a mental illness.
The problem with people who have mental illness is they often refuse to take the very medication that will help them--due to their mental illness. Its a catch 22 situation. And I know this because I have a sister who suffers from mental illness. She flushed her meds down the toilet, had a "hit list" and my mother was on top of the list. Paranoid and thought we were all plotting against her. She made my mother taste her food because she was sure she was being poisoned. Yes, the meds helped her tremendously--when she took them. But she didn't always take them, because of her mental illness! Its not the same as being diabetic, being fat or whatever. When your mind does not work right you don't always do what is right---because your mind isn't right!
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
79. ??? I didn't mean that it was a mental illness
My point was: people in the US will understand complications from a physical illness, but not a mental illness. They act like it's a moral or emotional failing on the person's part, whereas, say, diabetes isn't treated that way. It's no different. It's a medical problem with the person.
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #79
110. Oh geez, I am sorry.
I was not responding to your post. Mine came out in the wrong place. I was responding to the person who said a mentally ill person should take their meds just like a diabetic should and if they don't its their own damn fault, like it would be if a diabetic didn't take their meds. I put that poster on ignore but this is pretty much what they said. Sorry about that. You definitely do get it.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #110
120. No worries!
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WildClarySage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
114. Big difference between Post-partum depression and Post-partum psychosis
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uniden Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. so
someone kills five children and the DA shouldn't even try the case? Are you serious? The depression can be used as her defense, but to suggest that the DA is an idiot for trying the case, is .....

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
61. Try again.
I didn't say he's an idiot for trying the case.

Here's a hint:

"Curry said if the case goes back to trial, he is confident Yates would be convicted again."

IDIOT! Case closed! :7
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
80. Give me another break
1.) No one said that, and
2.) Yates didn't have "depression."
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obnoxiousdrunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
33. DA: New trial for Andrea Yates
Texas' highest criminal court today let stand a lower court ruling that threw out Andrea Yates' murder convictions for drowning her children in a bathtub in June 2001. Harris County Assistant District Attorney Alan Curry says the case will be retried or a plea bargain considered. The First Court of Appeals in Houston overturned Yates' 2002 convictions because of false testimony from a forensic psychiatrist.
http://www.cnn.com
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Good
The only people who should have stood trial for this horror were her husband, her minister, and the physician who discontinued her medication.

She doesn't deserve to be in prison.
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uniden Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. funny
you suggest jail for everyone, but for the adult who actually did the killing.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. So--you find the situation amusing?
She should have been sent to a psychiatric institution, not TDC.

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uniden Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. but
the rest should be in jail, riiight? The logic is funny, yes.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Truth can be ironic, but funny?
No, you mean ironic.

No one is laughing.
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
63. Geesh, I will have to agree with another poster.
Welcome to my ignore list. Good lord.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. That's right
Obviously you're not familiar with the case. If you were, you'd understand why the conviction was overturned and that was affirmed.

Welcome to DU.

Don't you love all those Democratic wins yesterday?
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uniden Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. "Don't you love all those Democratic wins yesterday?"
yes, I do, and before you call me a freeper: all the men involved in the Yates case should go in jail, and she should be freed.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #51
81. Yup... also on my ignore, too
A piece of work.

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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. She does not deserve to be let free.
But she belongs in a mental hospital getting treatment, not a prison.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #54
91. She is in a mental ward of a prison.
WTF is the difference? They will not let her out of prison. Since she got a new trial, if she is send to a hospital, if the Drs. decide she is cured-she will be let go. What is she going to do when she is kicked out on the street?
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #54
127. "she belongs in a mental hospital"
Yep ... along with Charles Manson. :eyes:
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. Wow, my ignore list is busy today.
buh-bye!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #128
130. I'm honored.
:eyes:
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #128
131. Geez... me too
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #131
174. Excellent!
:party:
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Cactus44 Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I'm glad to hear that.

Prison is not where she belongs.
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
41. There is no excuse for murdering your children
None. She should receive the harshest punishment short of the death penalty. Trying to pass the blame to her doctor, husband, or the system is ridiculous. She systematically murdered her five children and knew exactly what she was doing. A stone killer.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. You're wrong
The law doesn't see it your way, and that's good.

You should acquaint yourself with the facts of the case.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #41
67. Here in Houston, I learned far too much about the case.
But you obviously know nothing.
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #41
68. Right.
Obviously you have no clue what mental illness is really about. I am sure you are in the camp that believes mental illness is all just bullshit, right? I sincerly hope you never have to deal with a mentally ill family member or loved one as I have had to.

Buh-bye.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
147. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Susang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
53. It seems like half the posters here didn't bother to read the article
Yates is receiving a new trial because the prosecutions star expert witness, Dr Park Dietz (a forensic psychologist), was found to have given false testimony about her mental state.

Dietz was the only psychologist to testify that she was not suffering from post-partum psychosis, even the other doctors for the prosecution believed that she was psychotic. Dietz's testimony about Yates having gotten the idea to kill her children after watching a Law and Order episode that he was a consultant on (an episode that never existed)was so convincing that appeals court believed it swayed jurors who might otherwise believed that Yates was legally insane.

No matter what you think about what Andrea Yates did, she most definitely deserves a new trial. Dietz lied on the stand about information critical to Yates' mental state. His false testimony is grounds for a mistrial.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. Why read and learn the facts, when you can just spout off
and show off how ignorant you are of said facts? :P
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Tell me about it.
Sometimes I wonder if I am on a site for progressives and enlightened people with COMPASSION or if I somehow ended up somehere else! :eyes:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Compassion went out of style in the 80's
I still have hope it'll make a comeback. :)
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Me too. In the meantime,
thank goodness for the ignore button. :)
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speedingbullet Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #53
107. Lying Witnesses
I think you get the point. In America even "guilty" people deserve fair trials (unless they are enemy combatants). It is bad enough when the prosecution trots out "expert witnesses" who are not really experts. Even worse when they bring out lying expert witnesses. It sounds like the appellate court did it's job. If she is really guilty, including sanity issues, the State can convict her without liars.
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OfireitupO Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
83. All murderers are crazy
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 02:49 PM by OfireitupO
You dont murder someone unless you are MESSED UP IN THE HEAD!!



She murdered 5, thats right, 5 PEOPLE!!


Shall we have insanity pleas for all murderers? Non-Violent people should be kept out of prison, im all for that, but VIOLENT ANIMALS NEED CAGES.


She should never ever see the light of day again, that christian nut.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. I'll let someone else take this one -- I'm tired
Except for this: all murderers are NOT crazy. Sociopaths aren't crazy.
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OfireitupO Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. I dont care if theres a medical explanation
If you murder 5 people you are apt to do it again.


Go ahead and plea to give her white walls and drugs for the rest of her life instead of prison, doesnt matter to me. What matters is, violent animals need cages, and she should never see the light of day again.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. She's not an animal, she is a sick human being
I am very, very sorry you see people with incapacitating mental illnesses that way. I sincerely hope, because of your attitude, no one in your family, or a friend, is ever touched by something like this.

And yup! ANOTHER one on my "ignore"! A red letter day! Three from one thread. This has never happened before!

Maybe it's Kaine winning or something...
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OfireitupO Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. If it were a man who was depressed and killed his kids
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 03:03 PM by OfireitupO
You would be calling for his death.

Harsh but its the truth.



I voted kaine and im a hardcore democrat, but I will never EVER give excuses for someone who murders people.


A lot of serial killers had mental illnesses, doesnt mean they should be given leniency or ever given the ability for redemption.


Your ignoring me only underscores your emotional response to the issue instead of logically thinking it through. Im sorry, but you are very wrong.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #92
103. It's not that she was "depressed"... she was PSYCHOTIC.
CHRIST ALMIGHTY why are people REFUSING to fucking comprehend?!

And serial killers often go to mental hospitals instead of prisons, did you really not know that?

Ignoring posters like you is a way to maintain sanity. That's it. You all think you're logically thinking it through. We disagree VEHEMENTLY.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #92
104. First, not depressed, psychotic...
There is a difference, usually people who are depressed hurt themselves, not others, but thats not the point. The point being that even if a man did a similar thing, in similar circumstances, then they should have the same consideration as Andrea Yates is being given. Besides that, a prosecution witness lied on the stand, the prosecutor basically suborned perjury, do you think that is acceptable? Shouldn't anyone, regardless of who they are or what they did, have a retrial based on that new evidence?
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #92
111. So, the law is wrong, then?
By your reasoning, there would be no such defense as "not guilty because of a mental defect."

Your thinking would set back American - and most of the world's - jurisprudence by about 150 years.

It reminds me of people who called for "witches" to be burned at the stake.

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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. Yes, the law is wrong. It should be guilty but insane.
They can spend time in a mental hospital. And when the Drs. decide they are "cured" they should be send back to prison to serve their sentence.
If someone is so nuts that they kill people, they are a danger to society. I don't want violent mentally ill person back on the street after a couple of month in a mental hospital, thank you very much.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. Sorry
I didn't realize you didn't know the basics. My question to you was unfair.

You might want to read up on guilty pleas,and their history in our country. Some really interesting stuff there, and you'll probably spend a lot of time rethinking your current beliefs.

Best of luck to you.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #116
124. Oh please. Some states already have guilty but insane laws.
Texas is not one of those states, obviously. So, maybe you need to read up on your basics.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. Oh, Texas?
So, now we're talking about Texas?

I didn't realize you were versed in Texas law.

Thanks for the laugh.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #125
154. Hello? We are talking about Texas because Andrea Yates
is from Texas. Thus, Texas insanity laws are essential to the discussion.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #124
139. Which states are those?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #92
113. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #92
136. I can't imagine why anyone would make such an uninformed post.
Yates was not "depressed". She was psychotic.

Does it even occur to you to get a little information before spouting off?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #136
145. Not depressed? What on Earth are you talking about?
I could post thousands of links where she is described as depressed.
Being depressed and psychotic is not mutually exclusive, FYI.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #145
146. The legal defense is that she was psychotic, not merely depressed. But
don't let that get in the way of your mischaracterization.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #145
150. I'm so glad that responses like yours...
are in the minority. Most people seem to know the difference between being depressed and being murderously psychotic and cognitively impaired.

If everybody here thought like you I'd have to leave DU.

Beam me up, Scotty!
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #92
148. Men don't get postpartum psychosis.
Harsh, but it's the truth. :crazy:

Andrea Yates is not a serial killer either. You're comparing apples with oranges but I'm sure you know that.

If I didn't know better I would think I was at Freep Republic.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. Well, she is more like a spree killer. You know, the ones
that kill a lot of people in a short period of time?
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #148
173. Hahahahahaha!!!
:rofl:
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #85
140. Nice thing about law is it's supposed to be about evidence, not your
say-so.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #83
135. "crazy" is not a legal defense. Insanity is.
And all murderers are not insane, nor are they psychotic.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
96. Good, she never should have been in prison
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
115. Court Opinion that was upheld:
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 04:22 PM by happyslug
Here is the Fifth District Court of Appeals decision from January ordering a new trial (The Court of Appeals decision upheld this opinion):
http://www.1stcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/HTMLOpinion.asp?OpinionID=81308

Here is the Houston's Chronicle's decision on this case:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2980420

Court TV on the Yates case:
http://www.courttv.com/trials/yates/
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
126. These horrible bastards. Andrea had to be **in prison**
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 06:26 PM by sfexpat2000
before she got the care she ( and her children ) so desperately needed.

Her effen medical team should be in jail, too. It's not like paranoid schizophrenia is NEW to the shrink profession, is it?

Andrea: I'm horrified and shamed that this is as good as we could do. I promise you, even if this promise is hopelessly too little too late, that I will never stop fighting for the care our families need -- the technology that is so available and that is nearly impossible to get -- as you know, having done your best to get it.

People will try to blame Rusty. Even though he was the only real support you had and even though he had none himself. That's bullsh!t.

Your doctors FAILED YOU. All the professionals in your life FAILED YOU.

Even at this very sad late date, I will try not to fail you, Rusty or your beautiful kids.



((((((((((Andrea)))))))))))

:cry:

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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
144. I keep thinking of the little boys
Who loved her more than anything in the whole-wide-world. And who trusted her with their very lives. And I wonder what they thought when she manically chased them down and fought with them and pushed them into the bathtub, next to their dead brother. And I wonder the betrayal they felt as she--the one who was supposed to love them no matter what--held them under water as they attempted to gasp for air until they died.

Sorry, I cannot muster sympathy for her. She belongs somewhere where she cannot hurt anyone ever again. She can get help in prison.

Neither do I have sympathy for an adult sex offender who raped a little girl and claimed that he was mentally ill due to the fact that he was raped as a child routinely by his father. Was he acting out his victimization uncontrollably? I don't care. What ever his problem is, he does not deserve to be free to do it again.

Should they be compared? Some her say not. I disagree.

The lie told at trial according to the article: Dietz incorrectly testified that an episode of "Law and Order" in which a woman with postpartum depression drowned her children and was found insane aired shortly before Yates drowned her five children. Such an episode never existed.

That was not a lie regarding whether or not she was legally sane. That was a jury nullification lie. I agree that it should not have been said, and I trust the appeal's court's decision. But, the outcome should be the same. Those little boys and her future little boys deserve no less.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #144
169. Even if she goes to a hospital instead of prison, she will have NO....
"future little boys" She also had a daughter--but I guess girls don't count. Or perhaps you don't know as much about the case as you think you do.

But her ex might have "future little boys." He was on Houston news this AM, saying how a new trial would upset her. Nobody pointed out that his divorce freed him from any responsibility. But he likes that attention!

I wonder if he voted FOR proposition 2, to protect the sanctity of marriage?
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #169
179. Dear Ms. Burke
Edited on Fri Nov-11-05 10:31 AM by Evergreen Emerald
I was not aware that she had killed girls too. I thought she had only little boys.

I am surprised at your angry sarcastic tone towards me. You said: "perhaps you don't know as much about the case as you think you do." I never suggested that I think I know alot about the case.

I also resent your implication that I think girls don't count. As the mother of a little girl and as a prosecutor who has dedicated my life to protecting children, many of whom are girls, I am deeply offended by your uncalled-for remark.

I agree that her ex is culpable. And I believe the church is culpable in creating an atmosphere in which she felt she had no choice. She is also culpable--and the one who chased down her kids as they ran from her with confusion and fear and the ultimate betrayal.

Emmy
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
163. Postpartum depression is a serious illness.
And, although I don't think Andrea was in full possession of her mental faculties at the time, she did wait until her husband left the house to do what she did--thereby acknowledging that she knew he would try to stop her. Then she called him to report what had happened. I believe if she were completely insane she would have not had the ability to reason any of this out as she did. However, she did not invent a story as Susan Smith did, which was truly cold-blooded, heartless and self-serving. I think she knew what she was doing but I don't believe she did it with purely evil intentions in her heart, either. I think she is very seriously disturbed or certainly was at the time. But the fact that she stayed put and didn't run or invent a story to cover up is telling. It indicates that at least part of her felt she was not doing anything wrong--however misguided it was.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #163
170. She had postpartum PSYCHOSIS.
And she had serious mental issues even without the extra strain.

Glad to hear your diagnosis!
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #170
172. Right. Much, much worse than PPD.
Edited on Thu Nov-10-05 03:19 PM by Carolab
One seriously messed up person who was left unattended far too long. Someone should have thought to protect her and her children from herself.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #170
175. That was NOT the professional diagnosis of either set of 'experts'.
Edited on Fri Nov-11-05 12:00 AM by TahitiNut
I think it might be responsible to adhere to the facts of the trial and the actual clinical diagnosis, as well as the issues of law that prevail. If the legal system itself needs to be addressed, it does nobody any good to spread misinformation.

See the following LTTE of The American Journal of Psychiatry ...

Letter to the Editor

Infanticide

NEIL S. KAYE, M.D.
Wilmington, Del.


To the Editor: There are errors in the content of the article on infanticide by Margaret G. Spinelli, M.D. (1). I served as a media consultant for the case and discussed it with both defense and prosecution experts in November 2003 at the annual meeting of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law. Dr. Spinelli cites the high-publicity case of Andrea Yates as an example of postpartum psychosis and is critical of many who were involved.

Although she states that the expert opinions offered "differed remarkably," this is false. Park Elliott Dietz, M.D., Ph.D., the state’s lead expert, and Phillip J. Resnick, M.D., the defense lead expert, both reached similar diagnostic conclusions of schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder, respectively. In fact, all of the experts involved as well as outside experts consulted by media outlets reached similar diagnoses based on the available information. To claim that there was "little intervention from the psychiatric community" is to belittle the hundreds of hours spent by experts.

<snip>

Although there is no doubt that Ms. Yates was and still is mentally ill, her condition simply is not a just postpartum condition. DSM-IV could be faulted because it requires onset of psychosis to occur within 4 weeks of birth; that specific criterion was not met. Ms. Yates had this serious mental illness before she gave birth to her last child, 6 months before the killings. Six months postpartum is hardly a time when a woman is still experiencing the sudden hormonal changes associated with delivery. The Yates case is not a classic example or even a good example of postpartum psychosis.

Mental illness does not de facto equate to "not responsible." This decision is left to the judge or jurors. They apply the law to the medical circumstances. As the outcome shows, the jury in Texas required 3 hours to reach their guilty decision but only 35 minutes to rule out the use of the death penalty. To those who served on the jury, the evidence was clear. The outcome was also no surprise to the forensic psychiatrists in the case, who realized that the insanity standard being used in the Yates case would be very difficult to reach, given the facts of the case and her testimony that she knew her conduct was illegal.

<snip>

Most forensic psychiatrists welcome legislative deliberation on the topics of neonaticide and infanticide; the current penal codes do not really fit the behavior about which we are forced to educate the public and the judicial system. The British Infanticide Act (2) might well provide some guidance.


So, to all the misguided diagnosticians in this thread I advise a little homework and personal responsibility before posting.

OK?

Remember ... five innocent children are dead!

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #175
176. That clarifies a lot for me.
Edited on Fri Nov-11-05 02:44 AM by Carolab
So she was mentally ill but she didn't suffer from postpartum psychosis. As this points out, mental illness is no excuse when one obviously knows what one is doing and gives indications that they know it is is wrong. As I said, the fact that she waited for her husband to leave before she did what she did and then called him up to report it later, with a flat affect, indicates she knew what she did was wrong and didn't care. That, to me, says she was/is seriously mentally ill. It still doesn't explain to me why no one thought she was so far gone that she needed to be watched and couldn't be trusted to be alone with those kids. This is NOT to excuse what she did, in any way, shape or form. And notice I do not believe she was completely insane, to the point of not knowing what she was doing or knowing it was wrong. So as long as the evidence points to this: she knew what she was doing was wrong, even though in her misguided/mentally ill way she thought it was somehow a good idea--she thereby committed premeditated murder, IMHO.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #176
178. I think I agree. As I said when it was news the first time ...
... it seems clear to me that more people than she share the blame in this abysmal tragedy... but sharing is NOT exoneration. Our health care system failed. Their 'community' (especially their "church") failed. Her husband failed. Her closest confidants failed.

I'm totally against the death 'penalty' so any distinction between imprisonment in a penitentiary and imprisonment in a psychiatric ward is irrelevant with regard to any need society has, if any, to protect itself from her behavior. I'm not inclined to believe her imprisonment serves as a deterrent -- since such a crime (180 infanticides each year) doesn't seem subject to such an influence. That leaves penance, treatment, and rehabilitation. We're still in the dim daybreak following the dark ages of understanding (let alone treating) mental illness. The prognosis isn't an optimistic one, afaics.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 02:47 AM
Response to Original message
177. based on false testimony from forensic psychiatrist Park Dietz.
During the 80's, Texans used a supposed "expert" named James Grigson, or "Dr. Death" to make he came to be known for his frequent testimony against defendants- many of whom he'd never seen, who were usually then sent to death row.

Sounds like this guy's on that level. Dishonest and unethical.
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