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ECH1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 11:21 PM
Original message
Venezuela's Chavez tells Mexico's Fox: 'Don't mess with me'
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez accused Mexican leader Vicente Fox on Sunday of disrespecting him and his close ally the Argentine president, warning Fox: "Don't mess with me."

Tensions between Fox and Chavez spilled over after this month's Summit of the Americas in Argentina, where Fox sought to defend a U.S.-backed proposal for a free trade zone while Chavez proclaimed the idea dead.

"President Fox left bleeding from his wound," Chavez said during his weekly radio and TV show, echoing remarks days ago in which he accused Fox of being a "puppy" of the U.S. government for supporting its plans for the Free Trade Area of the Americas.

Chavez recalled a folk song from Venezuela's cattle-raising plains about a thorn, saying it seems appropriate for Fox since "you're a man of horses." After reciting the lyrics, Chavez said: "Don't mess with me, sir, because you'll come out pricked."

http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2005/11/14/67577.html
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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Chavez
He just doesn't take crap from anyone
Gotta love this guy
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Freedomfried Donating Member (684 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. He's going to get invaded, he's got the same "fuck you, Uncle Sam"
attitude that Noriega, Saddam, and Qaddafi had.
And with needledick the chimp in charge, that's what just might happen.
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countmyvote4real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Plus, his country has oil fields.
That's motivation for the BECF to take it up a notch. Just wait and see.
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StrafingMoose Donating Member (742 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
41. And high quality sweet-crude oil that is (nt)
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NEOBuckeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Bush has so decimated our military, he couldn't invade his own ranch
I don't think Chavez and Venezuela would be pushovers for us now. At best, it would become another Iraq. At worst, it would become the United States' waterloo.

We're no longer the superpower that we were before Bush was selected. The loss of the United States' superpower status and the decimation of our military is the sorry legacy of George W. Bush.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Think Mexicans could become Bush*s proxy troops for South America?
We buy, they fly? It appears Bush* has Fox in his pocket, now Fox only needs to convince Mexicans that the Commie leader in Venezuela is bad, bad, bad.
:shrug:
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I don't think Mexicans
would go to war for Sr. Fox. In fact, they sure as hell wouldn't.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
58. I think you're correct at this moment, but it may escalate...
and like us, the Mexican population may not have much say in these matters....



Venezuela, Mexico Recall Their Ambassadors


MEXICO CITY - Mexico recalled its ambassador from Venezuela on Monday after Caracas said it would withdraw its top diplomat instead of apologizing after President Hugo Chavez warned Mexican leader Vicente Fox: "Don't mess with me, sir, because you'll get stung."

Fox said in a television interview that he would meet with Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez to decide what to do next.

Tensions between Fox and Chavez spilled over after this month's Summit of the Americas in Argentina, where Fox defended a U.S.-backed proposal for a Free Trade Area of the Americas while Chavez proclaimed the idea dead.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/mexico_venezuela
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. Mexicans struck and
got the leftist Mayor of DF able to run for President.
If Fox gets the dingbat idea of starting a tiff requiring soldiers, millions of Mexicans would strike again.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Invalid comparison...
All those guys, at one time or another, were US puppets, to varying degrees, Chavez never kissed the US ass yet.
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. But he's got a lot more sense and resources than those clowns
you mentioned. The were thugs. Chavez is the legally elected President of Venezuela. He is a man that is taking care of the poor rather than stealing from them as Bush and the others you mentioned do or did.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
69. Watch for President Hillary to lead the invasion.
Imperialists of either party would gladly swallow Venezuela whole.

And in their desperation to keep cheap oil flowing to the overbuilt and unsustainable US suburbs, the temptation will be overwhelming.

Chavez is wise to form international alliances now, while he still has time to build defenses against SUV Nation.
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. GO GO GO Chavez! n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. Argentina's Nestor Kirchner called Vicente Fox either a "puppy"
or a "puppet" within a day or two of Hugo Chavez. Vicente Fox didn't like that either, but he only chose to chew the scenery over what Hugo Chavez did, proving both men were right, since Vicente Fox is most surely George W. Bush's servant. Fox is attempting to help Bush with his characterization of Hugo Chavez as a wild man in order to try to remove him from his elected office.
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TriMetFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. And I agree with you.
If Fox tries to help by using Mexican Troops I bet that Fox will have a up rise on his hands.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. No me chingas, Juan Dominguez!
Translation for yankees: Don't fuck with me!
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. What, Chavez doesn't like coca-cola?
Fox is no 'puppy' of U.S. gov. He and his elite multi-national corporate pals tell governments what to do. Chavez just won't play along.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. Quien es mas macho?
Fox o Chavez?
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. El machote Chavez!
Woohoo! He rules!

(Meanwhile Vicente Fox spends half his life bending over).
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
14. Fox is outnumbered with upcoming elections in Chile and Bolivia
Heard tonight on NPR that the up coming elections in Bolivia which is now scheduled for Dec 14, is favoring a leftist populist type (i forget his name) that the people apparently love and adore, and in Chili a woman who is also a "left centrist" (whatever that means) is showing good polling numbers in it's upcoming election.

That will mean that Venezuela, Peru, Bolivia, Argentina, Uraguay, and Chili will be fairly united allies against any United States invasion or poltiical opposition to the fascists U.S. trade policies, (read privatization of natural resources for U.S.Corporations). They have militaries and could defend themselves.

Chavez called for a formation of a SATO to create a formidable defense against agresssion from the North.

Congress members and others from the state department continue to saber rattle against Chavez, claims that he is "anti-American". The fact is that he is anti-Bush, and anti-U.S. Imperialism.

It's time we take our "leadership" to task on their provocative anti-Chavez propaganda and demand they cease and desist with the saber rattling and drum beating for war agains our neighbors to the south.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Just found an article which would blend well with your remarks.
US on sidelines as Latin American voters prepare to redraw continent

Elections likely to bring new alliances and governments that defy old ideological labels

Dan Glaister in Los Angeles
Monday November 14, 2005
The Guardian


There was a telling moment during the Mar del Plata summit of the Americas in Argentina earlier this month. As the 34 leaders walked to the seaside spot chosen for their group photograph, they chatted and joked among themselves. But while they strolled in groups, one leader walked alone: the US president.

George Bush's isolation was more than symbolic. It was borne out by the failure of the summit to rubberstamp the US-backed creation of a south American trade zone. Both President Bush's isolation and the failure of the latest US-inspired trade plan for the continent highlight a question preoccupying US policy-makers and Latin American leaders: is the region drifting away from the influence of its northern neighbour?

Between now and the end of 2006, 11 presidential elections will be held in Latin America. The political changes and challenges that ensue could see a continent redrawn.
"In a real way Latin America is up for grabs," said Larry Birns, director of the Council on Hemispheric Affairs, a Washington-based thinktank. "At the very time when the US has one of the most conservative administrations, it's dealing with a Latin America that is moving to the left, not to the far-out left, but sufficiently to the left that Latin America is beginning to think about non-traditional relationships and affiliations."

Washington's unease is heightened by the presence of leaders who, at least nominally, come from the left. In Brazil, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva was elected from the Workers' party; Chile elected Ricardo Lagos, the first socialist president since Salvador Allende; Argentinians voted in Nestor Kirchner, who came from the leftwing faction of the Peronist party; and Uruguay chose Tabaré Vázquez, the candidate of a coalition of leftwing and progressive groups.
(snip/...)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1642140,00.html?gusrc=rss

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jseankil Donating Member (604 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:08 AM
Response to Original message
15. Chavez seemly acting more like a nutcase.
He loves the media attention all too much and talks like a Cartoon. "Don't mess with me"???? In no way was Fox "messing" with him. Cut the rhetoric already.

And before any one flames I detest Bush much like you all but that doesn't mean I'm going to kiss the ass of those who feel the same way about him, I'll judge them on what they do and say.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. What do you know about the situation you're addressing?
It appears you're not acquainted with the circumstances the other posters are discussing.

It'd probably be better if you were informed first, then made your comments.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. which is what, 1/12975297529759257 of the Pentagon budget for one week?
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 05:55 AM by thebigidea
let me know when he invades a sovereign state and spends a few years threatening "regime change" on several more.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
54. Adios
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. I agree, Chavez completely lacks class
Mexico just suspended diplomatic relations with Venezuela. Why?? because Chavez can't keep his big mouth shut.

then again, what do you expect from a talk show host.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. It would be helpful if you provided some links bearing evidence
to your claims Chavez "lacks class."

Why should Chavez "keep his big mouth shut?"
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. the story is just another indication
n/t
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. Why the HELL should Chavez shut up?
When your President is the most idiotic ruler currently active, spouting his lies to the four winds, what right to you have to ask any other leader to shut up?

Bush doesn't have the smarts to be a talk show host. He long ago lost the ability to think on his feet.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. I can express my opinion too
even if it isn't in line with the Chavez buttkiss crowd.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. Yes, but Chavez won't shut up because you say so.
And lots more people listen to Chavez than to you.

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. yes, unfortunately
n/t
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. That would probably change
if you expressed informed opinions. Why don't you enlighten us about Hugo Chavez and the Venezuela situation? Maybe then you'd be listened to.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. what specifically did you want to hear??
as if you are informed about Venezuela.
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #52
62. Since I am informed about Venezuela
it is very obvious to me that you are not. You haven't offered one iota of factual information.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #62
72. enlighten us then
n/t
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. The onus is on the person making the baseless accusations
that would be you. :-)
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #29
94. According to this article, we've not been aware of many of the facts,
either, which is easy to believe.

Here's an article from today which sheds a little more light on the situation:
Caracas, Wednesday November 16 , 2005

Foreign Minister regrets "downpour" of attacks on Venezuela

Foreign Minister Alí Rodríguez justified the comments by President Hugo Chávez during his Sunday TV and radio show by arguing that were in reply to a couple of remarks previously made by Mexican ruler Vicente Fox.

"There is a real downpour of attacks on Venezuela on the media and in the political circles of ruling PAN party, even urging to break off every relation with Venezuela." In his view, Venezuelan sectors should replicate the action.

"It was Mexico who took the lead and resolved to stay relations until receiving an explanation by Venezuela, and set also Tuesday at 12:00 p.m. as deadline. This is obviously an ultimatum, and we dismissed it for being disrespect."

The senior official thanked Mercosur for being ready to help solve the disagreement between Mexico and Venezuela.
(snip/)
http://english.eluniversal.com/2005/11/16/en_pol_art_16A632615.shtml

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


We can always count on our own media to publish only the accusations which favor Bush's official attitude toward a leader who doesn't have time for MEpublican aggression.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Chavez calls a spade a spade - i admire him for that
Or would you not say that Fox is a US puppet?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. I don't believe having friendly relationships with other countries
makes them a puppet. I want the US to have more allies. don't you??
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Fox is not just friendly;
Fox supports US-style "free trade", which is to the benefit of large US (transnational) corporations, at the expense of the local population. Same thing as in Indonesia, Birma, China - to name a few.

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. so that makes him a puppet??
because he supports free trade?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Free Trade - to benefit Corporations, at the expense of The People
It's interesting that you don't dispute the latter part, but rather ignore it.
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jseankil Donating Member (604 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Is Clinton a Bush puppy also because he supports the FTAA?? /nm
/nm
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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Yes.
Get over him.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. Yep he is wrong. And I basically
love Big Dawg. I always say that his one hugh mistake (or not?) was NAFTA. This is why we have no industry left in this country. If Clinton approves of FTAA/CAFTA then is is wrong again!!!! NAFTA destroyed this country IMHO.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. No Clinton is reflecting the same monied interests Bush does.
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 01:58 PM by K-W
It is the US business community that is behind the free trade push thus both Clinton and Bush supporting it.

Fox is a Bush puppy because he aqcuiesces to the neo-liberal policies Bush pushes at the request of the business community. Clinton isnt Bush's puppy, he is a corporate puppy like Bush.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #46
71. Kindof, yes;
though as others have pointed out, it's more like both Bush and Clinton are puppets of the corporate establishment. The way things are nowadays pretty much anyone in such a position of power only gets there with approval of the corporate establishment.

(Transnational) corporations own governments, the mainstream media, and the legislative process concerning international trade. To them, "people" is just labor, and has to be as cheap as possible.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #46
73. Wrong is wrong, no matter who it is.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
55. It's neither interesting nor surprising.
Sickening and irritating, that's what I'd call it.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
50. Duh. Bush loses allies because
he "doesn't believe in having friendly relationships with other countries", even potential allies.
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Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
66. Chavez withdrew his top diplomat, then Mexico did the same.
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 11:24 PM by Kralizec
Note it is just the "top" diplomat, not relations.

edit: clarification
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. What did Chavez do that makes you think he's a nutcase?
Can't only because of "don't mess with me" can it?

Got anything to substantiate your claim?
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #31
51. Bush "you're either with us or against us"
another nutcase by any other name would be just another nutcase?
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
45. Some people detest sarcasm
I understand that. However, Chavez tells the truth uses sarcasm. I happen to love it.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
74. You must be talking about Herr Busch, not Chavez....
...give it up...you're going after the wrong guy.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
18. Mexico to severe Venezuela diplomatic ties
Sunday, November 13, 2005 · Last updated 11:57 p.m. PT

Mexico to severe Venezuela diplomatic ties

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

MEXICO CITY -- Mexico said it will withdraw its ambassador and severe diplomatic ties with Venezuela if that country's president doesn't apologize Monday for warning Mexican leader Vicente Fox: "Don't mess with me."

In a late-night statement Sunday, Mexico's Foreign Relations Department said that because Hugo Chavez's comments "strike at the dignity of the Mexican people and government, Mexico demands a formal apology from Venezuela's government."

Tensions between Fox and Chavez spilled over after this month's Summit of the Americas in Argentina, where Fox sought to defend a U.S.-backed proposal for a free trade zone while Chavez proclaimed the idea dead.

"President Fox left bleeding from his wound," Chavez said Sunday during his weekly radio and TV show, echoing remarks last week in which he accused Fox of being a "puppy" of the U.S. government for supporting its plans for the Free Trade Area of the Americas.
(snip/...)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1102AP_Mexico_Venezuela.html
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TriMetFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
19. I have to agree with Chavez. Fox is not only a "puppy" of the U.S. but....
a puppet of the U.S. I think that Fox needs to ask the people of Mexico how they really feel about Bush and the U.S. I for one, do know that a lot of people in the State of Yucatan don't like Bush and they think that Bush is the anti-Christ.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
readmylips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
23. Maybe now bush can finally invade Mexico...
The US has always elected the Mexican presidents. Vicente Fox (elite) came from Coca Cola, a high executive in the Mexican region. Bush Sr was on the board of Coca Cola Mexico and that's how Fox was chosen to be president. The only Mexican president, peasant like Chavez, not chosen by the US was Salinas(?), before Fox. Salinas and family were ran out of Mexico by the US and Mexican elites.

Mexico is not a democracy. It's ran much like Saudi Arabia except they no longer have a kingdom. 90% of Mexicans live under poverty standards. Why? Canada doesn't have these problems or corrected their problems once they broke away from England and the US. Canada is now their own country and US fears Canada.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Thanks for the information. Didn't know there has been a Bush/Coke
connection.

Appreciate your comments.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #26
36. Bush's coke connection is well established
n/t
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
47. Lol!
:D That just sounded funny!
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. I meant Bush/COLA connection........
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. Salinas de Gortari was hardly a peasant.
He won office in a shockingly crooked election, beating Cuauhtemoc Cárdenas--son of Lazaro Cardenas. The elder Cardenas nationalized Mexican oil & was, in fact, the last President many Mexicans truly respected.

The stench of the 1988 election was evident up here in Texas.


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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #23
75. Nixon was also involved with Coca-Cola...as general counsel or...
...a board member during the early 1960s. In fact, when confronted with definitive evidence that he was in Dallas prior to JFK's assassination, he at first denied it (three different times), and then claimed he was in Dallas for a Coca-Cola board meeting.

Nixon flew out of Dallas just as JFK was being killed in Dealey Plaza.

I wonder if Poppy Bush was in Dallas for that same "board meeting"? A photo has surfaced in the last few years that depicts a well-dressed, tall, lean man with dark hair leaning against a wall near the Dallas Police Department. Although Poppy states that he can't recall where he was on November 22, 1963, Babs spilled the beans recently by stating they were both in Dallas that day.
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maximovich Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
42. Chavez Would Make a Very Powerful Ally
It would be smart for political leaders in the states to rebut some of the crazy accusations of the Right. They should be doing that now!
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #42
70. Very much in US interests to court Chavez
In the interests of ordinary US people, that is.

All of us could benefit, at the very least, from his wise example: a government actually interested in its people. By making use of federal treasury reserves for public welfare, Chavez demonstrates a level of commitment to the public welfare that has vanished from the land of Coca Cola, where a cruel dog-eat-dog ethos now governs.

The interests of US plutocrats are quite different, of course. They see Chavez as nothing more than a temporary impediment to getting their hands on Venezuela's oil. They're certain they'll get him, that it's only a matter of time before some CIA plot succeeds...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
44. Familiar comments from a new article....
The Imperial President and the Bolivarian Democrat
Section of article by Roger Burbach Visiting Scholar University of California
Henry Greer [] | POSTED: 11.12.05 @08:16

~snip~

.......Demagoguery is apparently a label imposed on any leader who attempts to mobilize and improve the lot of the popular classes at the expense of the wealthy. In a country of 25 million, illiteracy has been virtually eliminated as 1.4 million learned to read and write during the early years of Chavez' tenure. Three million adult Venezuelans previously outside the education system due to poverty enrolled in schooling programs.

When Chavez took office 80 percent of the population was largely excluded from the benefits of an oil rich economy. Few had access to even minimal health care. Today, thanks in large part to an "oil for doctors" program that has brought 20,000 Cuban doctors to Venezuela, seventy percent of the population enjoys access to free health care. Malnutrition and hunger have been eliminated as three-fifths of the population now receives subsidized food via cooperatives, special food programs and government distribution centers.

As to Bush's allegation that Chavez is pitting "neighbor against neighbor," the President of Venezuela proudly points to his efforts to foment cooperation in the hemisphere while opposing "the frightening neo-liberal globalization" embodied in Bush's call for a Free Trade Area of the Americas. Chavez in August launched PetroCaribe, a program providing Venezuelan oil to the countries of the Caribbean at a 40 percent discount with long term loans at 1 percent interest. In opposition to Bush's neo-liberal agenda, Chavez is calling for the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas that would include political as well as economic integration for South and Latin America.

The ultimate hypocrisy in Bush's proclamation that he stands for improved international relations while Chavez opposes "freedom in individual lives" came at Bush's last stop in Panama. There in an effort to rebuff international criticism of the secret U.S. prison system abroad used to detain and torture alleged terrorism suspects, Bush stated he would continue to "aggressively pursue" terror suspects and insisted that "any activity we conduct" is "lawful." Small wonder Chavez labels the Bush regime a "terrorist administration" that is a "threat to humanity."
(snip/)
http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=12771_0_5_0_C
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
57. I'm not too familiar with S. American politics
but I remember El Salvador death squads, Nicaragua and Panama (in Central America). I wonder what Wellstone found in Columbia when he visited and almost didn't make it back. From contaminating plant life in Columbia to backing "unsavory: politicians, everything our government has touched, turns into something obscene. I've been wondering how long it was going to take for countries south of the border to finally lose patience with our foreign policies. Bush will truly be a uniter if 4 or 5 S. american countries come together in an economic and military alliance against the US. This administration doesn't even know what diplomacy is--to them it's another word for "bully." Sad, very very sad.
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
59. Bush 'n Fox better watch it
Or Chavez will rally the entire western hemisphere against us. With our lack of military capability, it would be easy for them to invade and take us over!
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. oh come on
they wouldn't want to take us over-all they have to do is watch us being destroyed from the inside. And, that's whats happening!
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. True..
Like a termite infested house, we will soon collapse upon ourselves.
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Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. That is very, very far from Chavez' philosophy. n/t
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DaDeacon Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #59
87. Get real.
One word "Nuke" think they want some? Yes, the US would use it and has stated such if anyone attacks US soil. Not only that but Iraq and teh middle east is little cakes when you think that we could take teh oil in our backyard. Chavez and Fox better keep quite and not get to much attention on them .
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
65. Go Hugo! Tell it like it is!
Gotta love that guy!

At least he speaks the truth, that's for sure.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
68. This sounds like another spin move from corporate media
Fox goes the offensive and the spin machine shoots it out like Hugo is the one that is not getting along. The corporations can't get the trade deal on the move. So to change gears they try and blow some smoke and ruffle feathers to maybe try and help others to forget about the failed attempt of their lap dogs in Fox and Bushco. I bet it won't play like that in LATIN America. Fox and Bushco are both lame ducks so I wouldn't be surprised by desperate moves by anyone or anything trying to shake things up also.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
76. I just posted this new news article in its own thread. It's interesting.
Edited on Tue Nov-15-05 09:52 AM by Judi Lynn
Mexican not to sever diplomatic ties with Venezuela: FM

www.chinaview.cn 2005-11-15 19:13:40

MEXICO, Nov. 14 (Xinhuanet) -- Mexican Foreign Minister Luis Ernesto Derbez Bautista said Monday that the Mexican government has no intention to suspend diplomatic relations with Venezuela for now and it will take time for the ties to return to normal.

"Severing diplomatic relations is an extreme choice and the Mexican government does not intend to do so for now," Derbez said in an interview with a Mexican television station.

The foreign minister softened the tongue over a dispute between Mexican President Vincente Fox and his Venezuelan counterpart Hugo Chavez.

Venezuelan President Chavez had branded Fox a "lap dog of the US imperialism."

In an interview with CNN earlier in the day, Fox warned that he would consider halting diplomatic ties with Venezuela if the latter continues to launch verbal attacks.
(snip/...)

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-11/15/content_3784393.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don't forget Argentina's Nestor Kirchner called Vicente Fox either a "puppy" or "puppet" to the U.S. in the same week, and the media made very little of that situation.
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
78. Mexican opinion...
...is difficult to judge, but on the online section of El Universal (Mexico City newspaper) the comments in the opinion section seem to be running against Chavez. Surprising, given the general unpopularity of Fox.

http://foros.eluniversal.com.mx/foros_sr_detalle_foro.php?p_id_tema=3904
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Maybe you should post a link to the English version of the paper
for American English-speaking DU'ers. That just might be helpful.

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. you won't get the dialogue of Ven and Mexican citizens
if it is in English. You know, the places where it really matters. Some of the Venezuelans are lamenting Chavez's actions and calling for peace among brother countries. One Mexican is angry at Fox. One Bolivian says that Chavez is sticking his nose in Bolivia's business. that was just the first page.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. We wouldn't get the dialogue anyway, if we don't speak Spanish.
You're saying the LTTE's are the "places where it really matters?"

Most people would look to the actual news carried by the paper, and that could be slanted if the ownership is right-wing, or panders to a right-wing idiot readership like the Miami Herald.

If you're trying to get people to read your links, provide English. It's more sensible that way. You're in an English-speaking country.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. I could read it just fine
I doubt the message forum is a right wing plant.
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #79
85. Sorry,...
...but the comments of readers will only be posted in Spanish, and I was not interested in what the paper had to say - I was trying to use the comments section to gauge public opinion in Mexico regarding this spat between Fox and Chavez.

I posted the link for those who are Spanish speakers (more and more folks these days). For those who don't speak Spanish, they can choose to accept or reject my reading of the comments indicating that at least in this estimate of public opinion in Mexico City, people are not too happy with Chavez.

In general, I try to read some of the foreign papers (and in their own language if I speak it) in order to get an idea of local opinion unfiltered by our press. El Pais, Le Monde, Le Figaro, The Guardian, The Independent, BBC, Pravda, and Haaretz all make for interesting points of view.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. The guage of popularity I do know I can believe is the results of the
elections in Venezuela. Hugo Chavez was elected to act as the leader of those people, not the people in Mexico who may be very attentive to the things they believe are happening in their own government.

You STILL don't see a strong sentiment against the pResident here in newspapers' LTTE sections now, and almost NONE AT ALL for years after George Bush was elected.

It's really a good idea to post articles written in English in an English speaking forum. It's a custom you can trust.
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. My comment...
...was not about the popularity of Chavez in Venezuela, but about how Mexicans view the public argument between Fox and Chavez. The only way to estimate that is to look at Mexican opinions in Spanish. And if a topic is posted on the DU that deals with relations between two Latin American countries, then information in Spanish is pertinent to the discussion. Of course, those who don't speak Spanish are at a disadvantage, since they cannot evaluate the evidence and form an opinion based on the entire range of facts, but that does not mean that the facts should not be presented. And as an additional piece of information, I spoke with a Mexican friend this morning who is rather anti-Fox. He says that the majority of Mexicans are very angry with Chavez and think that he is a jerk. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but consistent with what can be gleaned from other sources.

Since you raise the issue of Chavez in Venezuela, it seems a good time to point out that the lack of ability to speak Spanish has contributed, in my mind, to the generally warm reception that Chavez gets on the DU. While Chavez has made a centerpiece of creating programs for poor Venezuelans, he have swung very much in the direction of a demagogue populist, a not uncommon pattern in Latin America. The problem is that DUers can't understand him in his native language and judge for themselves. Remember Juan Peron in Argentina. He started off as the hero and champion of "los descamisados" (the shirtless ones), but his policies were a major factor in the economic decline of Argentina, which at the beginning of the 20th century was one of the richest countries in the world. And Peron's regime degenerated into thuggery. Similarly, Chavez has been muzzling opponents and putting limits of freedom of speech if that speech is critical of him.

You don't have to take my word for it - you just have to listen to Chavez. Not too long ago I posted a link to a recorded phone call that Chavez made to a talk radio show (in Spanish). He threatened the hosts of the show, saying to them "cuidado" (be careful) several times in the context of reporting negative things about him or his policies. They, interrestingly enough, refered to chavez as "Commandante" - and Chavez did not object. People on the DU who do not speak Spanish are by necessity ignorant of these kinds of things because they can't hear Chavez speak in his own words. Can you imagine the outcry if Bush were to call into Air America and warn Al Franken to "Be careful" about making anti-Bush statements? Why are DUers willing to give Chavez a pass on something that they would not allow a US politician to do? While one may sympathize with the goal of greater equity in Venezuelan society, I, for one, am not willing to sacrifice freedom of speech and of the press to do so. Because I know what will follow.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. Being that Spanish is my first language. I don't fall in that category.
Edited on Wed Nov-16-05 01:31 PM by Guy Whitey Corngood
I've listened to many of his speeches and they are very much in the Latin American populist vein. I hang out with Venezuelans on a weekly basis and get into arguments with them constantly. None of them have ever told me I don't know my shit. We just have different opinions. These are the same people that refer to their fellow disadvantaged Venezuelan as a bunch of lazy asses who have never worked in their life and more importantly do not want to work. As I've been told many times Mr Chavez is just giving "these people" way too much.

The truth is many of his programs have produced results. Illiteracy has gone down. The masses are involved in their country's own politics for the first time. Whether people like him or not this is a result of his movement.

As far as that famous phone call. I listened to it. What he told the radio guys was basically. That as journalists one has a responsibility to report facts and not buy into every rumor. He did say in their profession one has to be careful and look at the facts. He repeated this a few times. He also praised them and said he was a big fan. He told them he is his own worst critic and that self criticism and evaluation is a good thing.

They called him comandante. So what? A lot of people do. If this man was the tyrant some here make him out to be. Trust me he would have done a lot of things to crush the opposition. When in fact they have all of the private media to rake him over the coals on a daily basis. The opposition over played their hand by launching that bullshit mini fascist coup period. That was not necessary. Maybe they could have even beaten him at the polls. This turned a lot of people against them. Also waving US flags in their rallies doesn't help their US lapdog image. Before this man poor people had no hope. Now whether he's good or bad for the country he has given them that.

I also read the comments posted regarding the Mex-Ven issue. Sure a lot of people are pissed and insulted. That's fine and dandy. But there's also some ignorant ass comments. Like the guy who says in Venezuela people could not post critical comments on the web. That's just moronic. As far as I know. The Chavez government doesn't a "Total Awareness Thingy" a la Poindexter. People are free to say what they want about this man and do so. None of the Venezuelans I know here or talk to on the phone have ever told me they feel oppressed in any way.
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #90
96. Then..
..we have different interpretations of what we heard. But at least we are able to hear and understand, and thus come to informed points of view. They may not be the same points of view, but they are not arbitrary.

I assume that we are talking about the same phone call. The broader context is here

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/globalvoices/-/world/americas/venezuela/
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. The one you posted a while back. I'm just sayin' how I saw it. n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #78
92. Mexican opinion, in this article from your paper, runs against Fox
Fox's performance leaves many puzzled

BY KELLY ARTHUR GARRETT/The Herald Mexico
El Universal
November 13, 2005

The typical achievement of a summit involving heads of state is either a) nothing, or b) decided well in advance. The highlight of the actual gathering is the made-for-television acting out between jaw sessions. The featured participants take advantage of the spotlight to promote themselves, while protesters use the cameras to convince the world that their cause somehow requires oddball behavior or manic violence.

If summits are political theater, last week's meeting of Latin American leaders in an Argentine resort city was no less than Grand Kabuki, a song-and-dance spectacle emphasizing technique. Much of Mexico, however, was unimpressed with its own president's technique. In fact, the near-consensus opinion of those outside his own party was that Vicente Fox's behavior at the summit was shameful, embarrassing, and detrimental to the nation.

And that's the sugarcoated version. Just about every voice to the left of the president (i.e. the majority of voices) came right out and accused him of kowtowing to the United States, of "doing Bush's dirty work" in Argentina. The "E" word entreguista is a serious charge in these parts, but so overused in recent years that it's lost much of its zing. This time around, though, the concern is genuine, and those who accuse the president of submitting to Washington's will at the expense of Mexico's interests seem to mean what they say.

PUSHING THE FTAA

The criticism grew out of Fox's vocal and persistent attempts to push forward the longstalled Free Trade Area of the Americas, known in Mexico as ALCA for its initials in Spanish. It's no secret that Fox is a firm believer in the proposed accord, which would link more than 30 North and South American nations from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego in open commerce. But since there was zero chance for any unanimous agreement even on resuming talks in the future (the topic wasn't even on the summit agenda), Fox's fevered pitching and lobbying for ALCA came off as unseemly grandstanding, and often as scolding.
(snip/...)http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/miami/15679.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. As I said before...
...I was not so interested in what the paper had to say - I was interested in what Mexicans who submitted comments to the comment forum had to say. Those comments seemed to be running against Chavez, which I found surprising because of Fox's general unpopularity. My discussions with a couple of Mexicans today only reinforce the view that while most Mexicans are very disenchanted with Fox (for whom they had high hopes after years of PRI rule), they do not view Chavez favorably in this dispute.
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Enhancer Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
80. WAR! WAR! WAR!
Who wants to see Mexican and Venezuelan navies duking it out in the Caribbean? Huh?! Honestly, I would put my money on Venezuelans. Of course, Colombians will get involved ASAP, followed by the Cubans, and ultimately everyone else.

What?! C'mon! I got plenty invested in Raytheon and Lockheed-Martin.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. how about they play baseball instead??
n/t
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twaddler01 Donating Member (800 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
89. Chavez is a character
I kind of like him ;)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
93. For anyone who missed it earlier in the thread, here's El Universal's
view, in easy to read English for those of us who aren't fluent in Spanish.
Fox's performance leaves many puzzled

BY KELLY ARTHUR GARRETT/The Herald Mexico
El Universal
November 13, 2005

The typical achievement of a summit involving heads of state is either a) nothing, or b) decided well in advance. The highlight of the actual gathering is the made-for-television acting out between jaw sessions. The featured participants take advantage of the spotlight to promote themselves, while protesters use the cameras to convince the world that their cause somehow requires oddball behavior or manic violence.

If summits are political theater, last week's meeting of Latin American leaders in an Argentine resort city was no less than Grand Kabuki, a song-and-dance spectacle emphasizing technique. Much of Mexico, however, was unimpressed with its own president's technique. In fact, the near-consensus opinion of those outside his own party was that Vicente Fox's behavior at the summit was shameful, embarrassing, and detrimental to the nation.

And that's the sugarcoated version. Just about every voice to the left of the president (i.e. the majority of voices) came right out and accused him of kowtowing to the United States, of "doing Bush's dirty work" in Argentina. The "E" word entreguista is a serious charge in these parts, but so overused in recent years that it's lost much of its zing. This time around, though, the concern is genuine, and those who accuse the president of submitting to Washington's will at the expense of Mexico's interests seem to mean what they say.

PUSHING THE FTAA

The criticism grew out of Fox's vocal and persistent attempts to push forward the longstalled Free Trade Area of the Americas, known in Mexico as ALCA for its initials in Spanish. It's no secret that Fox is a firm believer in the proposed accord, which would link more than 30 North and South American nations from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego in open commerce. But since there was zero chance for any unanimous agreement even on resuming talks in the future (the topic wasn't even on the summit agenda), Fox's fevered pitching and lobbying for ALCA came off as unseemly grandstanding, and often as scolding.
(snip/...)
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/miami/15679.html
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