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Eugene

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Mon Nov-21-05 07:59 AM
Original message

Reports Cite Mall Shooting Suspect's Anger

Reports Cite Mall Shooting Suspect's Anger

By RACHEL LA CORTE Associated Press Writer
The Associated PressThe Associated Press

TACOMA, Wash. Nov 21, 2005 — A man accused of wounding six people
one critically when he opened fire inside a shopping mall sent text
messages saying he was about to show the world his anger, two
newspapers reported Monday.

Dominick Sergio Maldonado, 20, surrendered to police Sunday after he
ducked into a music store and took three hostages, all of whom were
released unharmed after about four hours, authorities said.

Bret Strickler, who said he was Maldonado's best friend, told the
Seattle Post-Intelligencer he got a text message while Maldonado was
holding the hostages that said, "The world will feel my anger."

Mary Simon, the mother of Maldonado's former girlfriend, Tiffany
Robison, told The Seattle Times her daughter got a text message that
Maldonado apparently sent minutes before the shooting.

"It was lengthy, six or seven sentences, but the upshot was, 'The
world is going to feel my pain,'" Simon said.

<snip>

More: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1332805

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Mr.Green93

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Mon Nov-21-05 08:05 AM
Response to Original message

1. More causalities of the bushlies?

These are hard times to be in.

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benEzra

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Mon Nov-21-05 08:13 AM
Response to Original message

2. Some details from local media, via the High Road

Snipped from an ongoing discussion at the High Road, from media local to the incident:

The mall was a posted "no guns allowed" zone (Washington state has CCW, but businesses are allowed to discourage CCW.)

The local news is reporting that the gun the shooter used was a rare Bofors AK-5, which if true would be an illegal full-auto (Title 2/Class III restricted under the NFA). I'm a bit skeptical; given general media ignorance about guns, it could have been a non-automatic civilian rifle instead, anything from an SKS to a Vepr to a Mini Thirty.

Some excerpts from the thread:

my girlfriend is a manager at Macy's at the Tacoma Mall. thankfully, she has today off. the phone's been ringing all day long with people asking if she's ok. i'm SO happy to say yes. makes me nervous as hell that she has to go to work there everyday. and of course, Macy's and the Mall, managed by Simon Properties has a no weapons policy.

...

According to a TPD spokesman, the media are actually obstructing things by calling the store, preventing the TPD negotiators from getting through.

...

According to a KOMO-TV report, the weapon is now being described as a Bofors AK-5 rifle. Apparently one of the hostages in the music store knew what kind of rifle it was.

...

Ok - I am not a conspiracy theorist or anything, but: White guy, well dressed using not just a full-auto piece, but one which is rare in the US, and just somehow there was someone on-site to identify it and no one was killed?

....

The local media is now reporting that the shooter is a 20 year old Tacoma resident with an extensive juvenile record. Police are currently searching his home just a few blocks from the mall.

...

Channel 4 did just report on the 11:00 news that the gun is an AK-5, but I still don't know if I am buying that.....
The legal gun carrying citizen who apparently helped some folks escape early on is not even being mentioned of course
......tom

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Cerridwen

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Mon Nov-21-05 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #2

3. Hiya, could you help me out here, please?

I'm not sure what it is Tom is trying to say.

My coffee hasn't yet kicked in so if you could help this poor caffeine-challenged poster I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

:hi:

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benEzra

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Mon Nov-21-05 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #3

7. Who's Tom? (n/t)

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Cerridwen

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Mon Nov-21-05 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #7

8. The guy who signed the the piece you quoted - at least I presume

that's his signature at the bottom of the quote.

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benEzra

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Mon Nov-21-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #8

10. Oh, my bad (duh)...that was actually

snippets from a bunch of different posts by different people. Tom was the author of the very last snippet; apparently there was at least one armed civilian in there (despite the no-guns signs) who helped some people get out, but it was only reported on the local news.

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Cerridwen

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Mon Nov-21-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #10

11. Got it. Thanks!

My caffeine has finally kicked in. I am almost coherent.

:D

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pinniped

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Mon Nov-21-05 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #2

4. That's an odd gun to be allegedly toting around.

Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 08:24 AM by pinniped

It was probably a phased plasma rifle in the 40-watt range.

==Apparently one of the hostages in the music store knew what kind of rifle it was.==

It looks like an FN-FNC. Maybe the hostage/gun expert mistook it for that.

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Kelvin Mace

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Mon Nov-21-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #4

9. quibble

As in governing California, Arnie was a bit clueless on his gun. 40 watts? 40 megawatts would be a bit more likely. I don't see how he was going to manage to create plasma, phased or otherwise, with 40 watts. Actually 40 gigawatts would be more probable.

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benEzra

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Mon Nov-21-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #9

12. Well, a 5-watt (continuous) CO2 laser will cut sheet steel...

As in governing California, Arnie was a bit clueless on his gun. 40 watts? 40 megawatts would be a bit more likely. I don't see how he was going to manage to create plasma, phased or otherwise, with 40 watts. Actually 40 gigawatts would be more probable.

Well, a 5-watt (continuous) CO2 laser will cut sheet steel, so a 40-watt beam is pretty powerful if concentrated on a spot a few millimeters across. 40 watts on 1 square centimeter is a power density of 400,000 watts per square meter, which is enough to ruin your day.

A 40-gigawatt rifle would be immensely powerful, considering a 1-second burst would be equal to the detonation of 10 tons of TNT, if I did the math right (1 ton TNT = 4.187 gigajoules, IIRC). I doubt even Ahnold could handle the recoil of that rifle...

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DBoon

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Mon Nov-21-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #9

13. there were only 40 watts left after Enron stole all the power

nt

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MrBenchley

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Mon Nov-21-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #2

16. Jeeze, that would be one of those machine guns...

that our "pro gun democrats" say are never ever ever used in crimes...

Count on highroadrage.com to whack their willies over the gun porn....and of course they're pissing and moaning because the media is calling the weapon an assault rifle.

Shame you didn't link to the site, benezra...I'm sure DUers would get quite a few laughs over the freeper ignorance and stupidity on display....My favorite part of the discussion you're pretending isn't idiocy is the humhole who blames "Islamic militants."

Here's some other fun for the feeble-minded...

"Help wanted: Must Not be White Male....Racism is encouraged - -heck, mandated - by hardcore leftists....I have heard about many 'special efforts' when enough minorities have not been hired, but I have never heard of a 'special effort' when more than enough minorities have been hired. You can apparently hire too few minorities, but never too many."

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=167005

"The Three Stooges are funny, especially to adolescents. Mrs. Snopes Clinton's socialist medical scheme was just plain stupid and arrogantly anti-American....What the dems really want is to incite further attacks by apparent readiness to cave to terrorists. Then with their proof of unwinnability of the war, repubs will be defeated. Then the dems can take control, win the war with their steadfastness and forever show that they are real men....Maybe my Congressional Rep., Jean Schmidt, calling a spade a spade (and him a coward) shamed him a bit. Amen and so be it."

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=166800

"I love Cheney , he really knows how to get the leftists(defeatists) howling at the moon!...The pathetic whining and insane Bush hatred is enough to make me vomit ...quite (sic) antagonizing the liberals. Don't you know they don't want anything like the truth to ruin their terrific screaming fit they like to have..."

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=166289

It sure is inspiring to see all those liberal posts by gun-owning Democrats there....or would be if there were any. But there ain't for reasons that are thuddingly obvious.

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Romulus

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Tue Nov-22-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #16

29. too too funny

Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 10:14 AM by Romulus

Too bad, Benchy, that you selectively quoted from some of the High Road's threads:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=167095

"For the past three years Bush and Cheney have acted as if they knew something about Iraq the rest of us didn't. Time and again they are proven wrong, so maybe they should sit down and have a nice hot cup of stfu."

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=166289

Topic: Cheney: War critics "dishonest" & "reprehensible". . . "Pot paging kettle, come in kettle..." . . .He would recognize the animal if anyone would, he stares at one every morning while he shaves.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=166370&highlight=liberal

Looking at Bush's popularity numbers, I'd say we're due for another attack any day now

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=167095

His point is that Cheney and Bush both messed up again by pulling the "unpatriotic" BS again. I am glad they are taking a pounding on it.

Are there a lot of different political viewpoints on TheHighRoad? Yeah, because it's not a political website . . :eyes:

Edited to add:

Do show us that:

- the alleged machine gun was properly registered with BATFE before 1986 (since new machine guns have not been allowed to be registered with BATFE since 1986),

- the mall shooter was properly licensed by BATFE to own the machine gun

- and the mall shooter was carrying the BATFE registration paperwork the he is required by Federal law to keep with the machine gun at all times.

If so, maybe you would have a point . . .:eyes:

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MrBenchley

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Tue Nov-22-05 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #29

30. Jeeze, rom...two whole posts!

You "pro gun democrats" are sure a raging ball of fire, all righty. Alan Colmes looks like Ward Churchill next to you guys.

"Are there a lot of different political viewpoints on TheHighRoad?"
In a word, no. The opinion ranges from freeperish to ultra-freeperish....

Now I suggest you go sob about how unfairly machine guns are being maligned to somebody who gives a shit.

P.S.: You might notice that "Looking at Bush's popularity numbers, I'd say we're due for another attack any day now " certainly has more than one meaning....

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sendero

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Mon Nov-21-05 08:21 AM
Response to Original message

5. And now Mr Maldonado..

.... you will feel the world's pain. For at least 20 years.

Fuck you.

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Binka

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Mon Nov-21-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #5

6. Precisely! Hey Maldonado Ya Little Shit Stain THIS IS PAIN (graphic)

Why aren't YOU in Iraq you worthless MotherFucker?

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Occulus

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Wed Nov-23-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #6

47. Jesus, Binka. That's Ben's wound?

Holy shit.

Please, give the guy a handshake and a hug for me just for living through it, will you?

Wow.

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benEzra

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Mon Nov-21-05 02:19 PM
Response to Original message

14. More details, via the High Road

Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 02:22 PM by benEzra

More details, from police and civilian firearms instructor John Farnam, via the High Road. This is actually third-hand, since Farnam is repeating what appears to be correspondence from a Tacoma police officer.

20Nov05

Active Shooter in Tacoma, WA Mall, from a friend at the scene:

"Today's shooting involved a twenty-year-old, Hispanic male, high on crystal meth. It was an attempted suicide-by-cop. However, during the entire incident, no police bullets were ever fired at the suspect. The suspect was armed with a CZ 9mm pistol, loaded with Remington Golden Saber ammunition. He also had a Kalashnikov clone (7.62X39, hardball ammunition) secreted in a guitar case.

He started by firing his pistol randomly down a mall corridor. He was jumped from behind by an unarmed mall patron who attempted to disarm him. In the ensuing struggle, the patron was hit four times in the torso before the suspect's badly-rusted and poorly maintained CZ experienced a stoppa ge which precluded additional shooting by the suspect. The heroic patron was the on ly person seriously injured during the incident. All other injuries were mino r, mostly caused by ricochets and people being trampled during the panicked ex it of mall shoppers.

With his pistol non-operational an apparently not knowing how to fix it, the suspect abandoned it and reverted to his AK, again firing randomly. Our 'Active-Shooter' training really paid off! First officers to arrive did not hesitate. They organized into the diamond formation and entered the mall building straightaway, moving toward the sound of gunfire. Some officers w ere armed with Ruger Mini-14s. Upon seeing advancing officers, then suspect ran into

a mall store and took three hostages. Officers were successful in containing the suspect and clearing the rest of the mall.

Negotiations began. At one point, the suspect fell asleep! He eventually gave up and released all hostages. He is currently in custody, uninjured. No shots were fired by police."

Comment: As my friend indicated, "Active Shooter" training i s critical for all departments, big and small. It surely worked here. The suspect was rapidly contained, and damage was minimized. SWAT teams were eventually involved, but the guys who heroically organized themselves and entered the building first were plain-vanilla patrolmen. They deserve a lot of credit. Good show, guys!

John

Looks like the only person seriously injured was injured by handgun rounds, while trying to tackle the shooter. The police learned the lesson from Columbine and didn't just stand around outside, but quickly confronted the shooter and boxed him in. Looks like a good response by the Tacoma PD.

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MrBenchley

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Mon Nov-21-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #14

17. Actually it's fourth hand; the goof on highroadrage

is repeating what he says is on Farnum's blog, which Farnum isn't getting first hand....

(By the way, you have to wonder what Farnum's blog is like if highroadrage won't link to it...)

"With his pistol non-operational an apparently not knowing how to fix it"
If only he could have accessed highroadrage.com! I'll bet they could have told him how to fix it.

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benEzra

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Tue Nov-22-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #17

20. Direct links to Farnam's blog archive:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/20Nov05.html

I should've included the link in the crosspost--my oversight. Second link above contains the 20 Nov. post about the Tacoma incident.

Farnam is one of the most respected law enforcement firearms instructors in the country, and his blog has always proven fairly reliable in my experience. I have no idea what his politics are, but his blog is mostly about law enforcement and civilian self-defense issues, with a bit of military history thrown in here and there.

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MrBenchley

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Tue Nov-22-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #20

21. What a funster he is....

Here's one of his wacky "quips"....

"In any event, I consider acceptable accuracy for a personal, fighting rifle , a "car-gun," to be four inches at 100m."

It's especially delightful on the very morning a "car-gun" is in the news....

http://www.news4jax.com/news4georgia/5376421/detail.html

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benEzra

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Tue Nov-22-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #21

23. Yeah, those evil hunting rifles...

Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 09:08 AM by benEzra

gotta ban them too...

Here's one of his wacky "quips"....

"In any event, I consider acceptable accuracy for a personal, fighting rifle , a "car-gun," to be four inches at 100m."

It's especially delightful on the very morning a "car-gun" is in the news....

In case you haven't noticed, most of Farnam's training involves law enforcement personnel, and an increasing number of police agencies are requiring officers to have a rifle in the vehicle...small- and intermediate-caliber rifles have been displacing shotguns for years...

Is it "wacky" for an off-duty police officer to have a rifle locked in his trunk? I don't think so.

FWIW, if I were a police officer, I'd probably keep a rifle in my trunk, too. Come to think of it, if lived where my brother-in-law does in rural Maine, I'd probably keep a rifle in the trunk in an appropriate caliber for black bears...he's been chased by a bear before...

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MrBenchley

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Tue Nov-22-05 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #23

24. Guess this bozo was hunting cops....

"In case you haven't noticed, most of Farnam's training involves law enforcement personnel"
In case you hadn't noticed, the fuckwits over on highroadrage.com beating their meat over this were run of the mill right wing shitheads....

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benEzra

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Tue Nov-22-05 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #24

26. Which calls into question the veracity of the crosspost, how?

"In case you haven't noticed, most of Farnam's training involves law enforcement personnel"
In case you hadn't noticed, the fuckwits over on highroadrage.com beating their meat over this were run of the mill right wing shitheads....

Which calls into question the accuracy of the crosspost, how?

"Guess this bozo was hunting cops...."

Guess so. That's obviously why we need to ban all guns but hunting rifles, so criminals will never again be able to murder police officers...oops, never mind, he used a hunting rifle...

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MrBenchley

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Tue Nov-22-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #26

28. Jeeze, ben, you mean you really can't figure out

that the sort of fuckwits over on highroadrage posting crap like "Racism is encouraged - -heck, mandated - by hardcore leftists...." are full of shit?

Guess that explains why you're unable to post anything pro-Democrat over in that cesspool.

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benEzra

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Tue Nov-22-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #28

32. There are indeed repubs over there...and Dems, and indies,

and gays, and lesbians, and straights, Christian conservatives, pagans, plenty of atheists, agnostics, and at least one Catholic priest. There are Asians, whites, African Americans, Latinos, and everybody else under the sun, including gunnies from the U.S., Canada, Germany, Finland, a couple from the UK (endangered species, there), Australia, the Phillippines, and who knows where else.

All sharing an interest in the lawful use of firearms, and the preservation of that right. Well, duh, it's a gun site.

In my experience, all points of view are allowed, though flamers and trolls may get the boot for incivility.

Gun ownership crosses a lot more lines than you seem to think it does...

At least a quarter, probably more like a third, of Dems own guns, and at least that many independents. In my state (NC), gun-owning Dems are in the majority, dude. Why do you think everybody has to agree with you or else?

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MrBenchley

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Tue Nov-22-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #32

35. And yet day in and day out its the same dreary freeper bullshit....

"In my experience, all points of view are allowed"
Good job putting up all those pro-Democrat posts...oh that's right, you didn't.

"At least a quarter, probably more like a third, of Dems own guns"
Hell, most gun owners favor gun control. The "gun rights" crowd is mostly the sort of bigoted humhole who flaps his yap at places like highroadrage.

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benEzra

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Wed Nov-23-05 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #35

38. Looks like Farnam was right after all

Looks like Farnam was right after all:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/breaking/story/5351456p-4844130c.html

Wounded man may have put brakes on shooting spree

M. ALEXANDER OTTO; The News Tribune
Published: November 22nd, 2005 03:17 PM
A confrontation between Dominick S. Maldonado, the Tacoma Mall shooting suspect, and the most severely injured victim, Brendan “Dan” McKown, 38, may have stopped Maldonado’s shooting spree Sunday.

McKown, an assistant manager at Excalibur Cutlery and Gifts, pulled a gun on Maldonado outside of the Kits Camera outlet, according to his mother, Patricia Schuman, who said police told her what happened.

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MrBenchley

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Wed Nov-23-05 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #38

39. Jeeze, if only there had been a shootout between the two!

Edited on Wed Nov-23-05 08:09 AM by MrBenchley

I bet the highroadrage buffoons would have fainted in a dreamy swoon.

By the way, how did this bozo "help" in any way? Sounds like he got shot even though he had a gun and a head full of Chuck Norris type fantasies...he pulled out his gun, Maldonado shot him, and then Maldonado went on to grab hostages and hole up in the Sam Goody....

That's more pathetic rationalization than heroism.

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progressivebydesign

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Mon Nov-21-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #14

19. I'm wondering about that person's account.

Just because someone says they are an officer does not make it real, on the internet. That account just differs completely from eyewitnesses. There is no talk from eyewitnesses that anyone tackled the guy. PLUS.. if you tackled a guy from behind, and he had a long rifle (as the one they said he was shooting) how could he have shot the person in the torso four times? The person most injured was said to have been shot in the head. The first person he shot at was the guy at the phone kiosk who said that the shooter pulled out the AK-5 (or whatever) and began firing right at their kiosk... there was no account of anyone tackling the guy or trying to disarm him.

I'm not really sure about that account. There was zero mention of a guitar case, nor that the guy started with a pistol, the gun everyone described him as having and shooting was the long gun.

The police DID do a wonderful job of getting people out of there, and there were so many wonderful everyday heroes who pulled injured people to safety and helped those that were panicked.

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MrBenchley

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Tue Nov-22-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #19

22. Gun loonies (such as highroadrage) are prone to inventing "facts"

to suit their twisted ideas of reality.

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benEzra

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Tue Nov-22-05 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #22

25. Those law enforcement loonies...

Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 09:31 AM by benEzra

Gun loonies (such as highroadrage) are prone to inventing "facts" to suit their twisted ideas of reality.

can't trust 'em, eh? :sarcasm:

Farnam, primarily a law enforcement trainer, crossposts what purports to be an email from a Tacoma police officer who may or may not know what he's talking about. But since the officer, and Farnam, both know a thing or two about firearms, they must be loonies...must be the years of lead poisoning, huh?

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MrBenchley

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Tue Nov-22-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #25

27. Geeze, ben....Farnum isn't there with the loonies on highroadrage

and it took some coaxing top get you to post to HIS blog, didn't it?

"crossposts what purports to be an email from a Tacoma police officer who may or may not know what he's talking about"
With all the credibility of those posts in chat rooms about "14 year old virgins" (snicker)

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anotherdrew

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Wed Nov-23-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #14

48. There cops did great! glad they didn't send a police dog after the shooter

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damntexdem

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Mon Nov-21-05 03:01 PM
Response to Original message

15. Really, he was angry? Who'd a thunk it?

I thought he was happy and docile and generally pleased with the world. ;)

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Orsino

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Mon Nov-21-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #15

18. To borrow a term from Roseanne...

Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 08:32 PM by Orsino

...were we supposed to believe that he was feeling particularly festive?

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MrBenchley

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Tue Nov-22-05 12:14 PM
Response to Original message

31. Another gun enthusiast....

"Court records show Maldonado has a juvenile criminal history dating back to 1998. He has been convicted of burglary, theft and trafficking in stolen property, and the records indicate he had been ordered by a judge not to possess any weapons.
Another co-worker, Edward Zeke, described Maldonado as a gun enthusiast who was "unstable, with a drug problem.""

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002636787_hostage21m.html

You might recall Tacoma is the home of the Bullseye Gun Shop, which had no problem arming unstable gun enthusiasts like Buford Furrow and the Beltway Sniper. In all, Bullseye couldn't account for more than 300 weapons.

Absurdly, due to the gun lobby and the corrupt GOP, Bullseye remains open for "business" and gun laws have been changed so that it no longer is required to have a written inventory...and cannot be sued for "losing track of guns".

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benEzra

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Tue Nov-22-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #31

33. Care to substantiate that?

"Court records show Maldonado has a juvenile criminal history dating back to 1998. He has been convicted of burglary, theft and trafficking in stolen property, and the records indicate he had been ordered by a judge not to possess any weapons.
Another co-worker, Edward Zeke, described Maldonado as a gun enthusiast who was "unstable, with a drug problem.""

So he can't legally so much as touch a gun, or a single round of ammunition, couldn't pass the background check to buy a gun, and whoever gave him the gun probably committed a felony...

I suppose the 18-year-old who murdered that girl's parents last week was just a typical blogger, too...he had a blog, he committed a murder, ergo bloggers are murderers...

Absurdly, due to the gun lobby and the corrupt GOP, Bullseye remains open for "business" and gun laws have been changed so that it no longer is required to have a written inventory...and cannot be sued for "losing track of guns".

Care to substantiate that? Please show me in the text of the law where it repeals the recordkeeping requirements of the Gun Control Act of 1968. You can find the text of the law at thomas.loc.gov...

Betcha can't...

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MrBenchley

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Tue Nov-22-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #33

34. Jeeze, ben, you mean you doubt he's really a gun enthusiast?

"So he can't legally so much as touch a gun, or a single round of ammunition, couldn't pass the background check to buy a gun, and whoever gave him the gun"
Tell us, ben, do you think the NRA Fairy left it under a cabbage leaf for him?

"Care to substantiate that?"
Try googling the words "Tiahrt Amendment" and "guns"...it's a dreary little atrocity the GOP slipped into last year's budget bill just to help your favorite fetish purveyors.

From one of your online cesspools...

"Specifically, the Tiahrt amendment keeps the ATF from requiring firearms dealers to conduct physical inventories of guns, from denying licenses to low-volume gun dealers, and from demanding that some dealers document all used guns sold in a specific period.
The National Rifle Association (NRA) helped write the amendment, which Tiahrt says addresses long-running infringements on the constitutional right to bear arms.
Tiahrt said his amendment protects law-abiding gunowners and sellers by letting small-volume dealers continue to sell and by cutting back on gun-purchase lists that, left unchecked, can lead to what is practically a national gun registry"

http://www.gunweek.com/2003/tiahrt0820.html

Because you sure wouldn't want any of the fun at the mall to be averted by a pesky little thing like record-keeping.

How does anyone who defends this crap look in the mirror without puking?

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benEzra

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Tue Nov-22-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #34

36. Did some googling

Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 03:52 PM by benEzra

on the Tiahrt thing, and found no indication that it removed the requirements of the Gun Control Act of 1968 in regards to to the maintaining of written records. In fact, I found fairly little information on it, aside from press releases.

The sites I looked at implied it had to do with the ATF actually going in and taking a physical inventory (i.e., demanding to look at every gun in stock), but did not change the recordkeeping requirements at all. It apparently didn't change much, since a search on "Tiahrt amendment" and "Bound Book" (the BATFE term for the inventory record every gun dealer must keep) produced zero hits. I'll have to look into this a bit more; I have a copy of the BATFE Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide on my computer here, but it's time to get home so I'll have to check tomorrow.

The only provision of the Tiahrt amendment I remember reading about (and one that does make a lot of sense) was the provision to enforce the law against illegal retention of NCIS background check records for people who pass them. The NCIS law signed by President Clinton required that NCIS records of people with clean background be destroyed after the check was passed, but IIRC there was no enforcement provision, and apparently some people were ignoring the law. That loophole was fixed, it looks like.

The "low volume dealer" provision also makes a lot of sense, since gunsmiths are literally "low volume dealers", for example (you have to have an FFL to be a gunsmith, since you are taking possession of any gun you work on). I doubt this part would be controversial.

"So he can't legally so much as touch a gun, or a single round of ammunition, couldn't pass the background check to buy a gun, and whoever gave him the gun"
Tell us, ben, do you think the NRA Fairy left it under a cabbage leaf for him?

That's a good question--and one that I hope will be answered in the coming days. All I know is that he was a felon in possession, which is a serious crime, and that he didn't get the guns by passing a NCIS background check and filling out a BATFE form 4473.

And you won't get any sympathy for that clown from gun owners, including me, FWIW. What I object to is the insinuation that all of us, including those of us here on DU, are like him.

Have a good evening! I'm heading home.

bE

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MrBenchley

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Tue Nov-22-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #36

37. If only I'd given a link (snicker)

":you won't get any sympathy for that clown from gun owners"
Yeah, it shows...especially in the gun porn.....

"he didn't get the guns by passing a NCIS background check and filling out a BATFE form 4473"
In the state of Washington he could have walked into any gun show and walked out armed without ever facing a background check. Or he could have gone to the Bullseye Gun Shop.

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PCR-00

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Wed Nov-23-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #37

40. To the Contrary

Gunshow requires you pass a NICS check before you can get a membership to the WAC (a membership is required for you to purchase a firearm at the gunshow)

Bullseye requires a 4473 for every firearms purchase. They aren't even owned by the same people anymore.

This creep got a hold of his firearms like any other criminal, on the black market. The black market does not follow any laws or rules set forth by the BATFE or WA .gov

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IA_Seth

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Wed Nov-23-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #40

41. Don't even bother...

This Benchley fella will just do his little laugh and giggle routine while spouting hatred for anyone that holds a differing view.

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MrBenchley

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Wed Nov-23-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #41

43. He might as well not have bothered, since he had no facts....

But I leave the hatred to the dreary gun loonies at places like highroadrage.com....they're bigoted pieces of shit. And it's notable none of our pro-gun democrats ever call them on their malignant rhetoric over there.

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MrBenchley

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Wed Nov-23-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #40

42. Not even close to true

Washington state has no such statute.

"Bullseye requires a 4473 for every firearms purchase."
Unless they don't...which is how it was they "lost" nearly 300 guns.

"This creep got a hold of his firearms like any other criminal"
At a gun show, probably....

"A Denver firefighter was arrested early Tuesday by federal agents and charged with selling illegal, fully automatic machine guns.
Ford is charged with two counts of selling illegal machine guns to FBI informants, one for $2,800 on April 22 and one for $3,900 on Aug. 2. Denver Fire Chief Larry Trujillo suspended Ford without pay Tuesday, said spokesman Lt. Phil Champagne. Ford has been a firefighter since February 1999.
A FBI arrest warrant affidavit described Ford as having ties to an unnamed domestic terrorist organization and having anti-U.S. sympathies. No elaboration was provided.
Ford was investigated by the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force after being referred by the El Paso County Sheriff's Office.
The FBI said Ford approached an FBI informant at the Tanner Gun Show at the Merchandise Mart in Denver on Feb. 7, 2004. Two months later, the informant, at the FBI's direction, purchased a Glock pistol from Ford for $425, the document stated.
The informant stayed in touch with Ford over the next 11 months, including one meeting at the Rocky Flats Lounge in Jefferson County, where Ford allegedly explained how to modify a legal weapon into a fully automatic weapon. "

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_3244087

Oh, those swell gun enthusiasts....

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IA_Seth

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Wed Nov-23-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #42

44. Ya know..

I won't bother much after this, because people like you refuse to see outside of your cozy little "urban righteousness" world.

You can't see that maybe some Democrats are pro-gun and not "gun nuts" because we were raised in a part of the country that sees guns as tools, reminders of a heritage that is lost to those that have known nothing but the city for generations.

You don't understand so you spew hate. You don't even TRY to understand, you just generalize to rationalize your bitterness towards people who see things differently than you.

Yes, I see that there are some wacko freaks out there that use guns irresponsibly. Yes, I see that the need for a fully auto weapon isn't there in a country like the US...and those that advocate for such can be a little off their rockers.

But your way of thinking is just as ridiculous as theirs. You hate because you don't know or you fear...I don't know and I don't care. All I know is that you are blind and I hope one day that you will see.

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MrBenchley

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Wed Nov-23-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #44

45. You know, it's hilarious to hear people who spout the same crap as

folks like Ted Nugent and John AshKKKroft complain that somebody else "spews hate"....

"people like you refuse to see outside of your cozy little "urban righteousness" world.....you just generalize to rationalize your bitterness towards people who see things differently than you"
Within five lines, too. I think that's a new record.

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crankybubba

(818 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Nov-23-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #37

46. pure unadlutrated benchley B.S.

Edited on Wed Nov-23-05 07:25 PM by crankybubba

give the link then. Oh wait you don't have one. you're just making things up again. Btw be sure to bring up how everyone here you don't agree with is pimpimg for glock. I could use another laugh.

benchley has no facts on his side. he will leave in a huff after he is proven wrong again and again just like the last threads we were in. right benchley?

btw will you be on my buddies list(:))

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