Sen. Clinton says immediate withdrawal would be mistake

DON'T SUPPORT THEM

democrats. I will not support or work for anyone who voted for the Iraqi war resolution -- period. As I've said before if they couldn't figure out the right side of that moral divide they don't have the sense to be president. I know some try to spin their vote as technically not authorizing war, the fact remains that by giving the idiot Bush any authority to wage war was an incredible lapse of judgment. I wouldn't vote to give the chimp the authority to order lunch, much less the authority to launch missiles.

If we want a party we can be proud of we must reward bravery and punish people who constantly look to the swing voters for direction.

I will not vote or campaign for a pro-war dem in the primary.

Our planet needs us now...not war profiteers, corporate shills and greedy oil mongers.

we're going to show you how many Progressives are out there....So, think again Hillary...

We saw a lot of this type of waffling until Eugene McCarthy came on the scene

...for any pro-IWR Democrat to earn back my support, he or she has to say that they now realize their vote was a mistake, and that they would not have voted that way knowing what they know now.

Edwards has done so.

Kerry has done so (finally).

Hillary still hasn't.

I was never any more disappointed in a political figure and their stance then when I saw some of the comments that Hillary has made---she's a goddamn waffler and opportinist, trying to play to both sides. Hope they throw her out on her ass.

to do so. Lip service to fool the idiots once again.

fundraising caller why I would not contribute to her coffers.

let's get that part straight. Just sayin'.

We'll still be there a year from now. This is military bureacracy we're talking about here. They don't move that efficiently. i DJed a wedding on a base once and it took me filling out 5 forms and waiting 3 months to get paid.

I agree with Alex Cockburn: Cindy should set up camp outside Hillary's office.

and I am going to tell her people so. I am putting her on my speed dial and will be calling her office alot. Join me, she needs to hear something from us regularly.

Correct me on this but I thought basically that was what he was indicating in his pull out reference. At least that is how I understood it.

He never said for us to just pull out. It was a phased withdrawal to prevent just walking away. He never said until after the Dec 15 elections but when he said it would take 6 months to a year, seems Dec 15 would be covered.

that Kerry and Murtha's plans are completely different when they actually share much common ground with different details in their approach.

and in so doing he remains delusional. He has moved 80% of the way over to our side, but he hasn't come to terms with the reality of the situation yet.

and give Iraqi firms the construction jobs.

Assure the people every step of the way that we have no designs on their resources. Turn that control over to them.

Get the training of the Iraqi troops that is needed done by all the other other countries who pledged to do so long ago, but who Bush has been stiffarming to maintain control unto himself.

His benchmarks aren't the same as Bush's. Kerry wants SIGNIFICANT numbers of troops pulled out every time the Iraqis reach an attainable goal. Not Bush's rhetorical ones.

"Kerry wants SIGNIFICANT numbers of troops pulled out every time the Iraqis reach an attainable goal."

Look..isnt the whole point of a COLLECTIVE ENLIGHTENMENT is to make sure The People dont get suckered again? So let's start out with 'the many ways one gets suckered', ok?

#1 DONT expect anything to run an expected course.
#2 Basing your plan on the actions of others means 'others' can f*ck you...
#3 Dont get suckered by a 'Kerry'. Kerry always gives himself a way out so no one can accuse him of any wrongfooting. You think the guy would have learned his lesson in 2003, by now. He listened to Kennedy. Kennedy was wrong. You don't play passive agressive politics when it effects thousands of lives. And I dont give a goddamn if he's up for sainthood(election). Kerry tells us he was betrayed by Bush..but the truth is Kerry was hoping Bush would do exactly what Bush has done so that he(Kerry) could use 'Bush going back on his word' when they didnt find WMD, they didnt include any UN negotiations or let the UN inspectors do their job...all wrap up and tidy for 2004... That's a Kerry.

And now you say Kerry will pull out troops as they become unneeded? HA! That's just ridiculous. Shit, is Kerry getting a Carlyle job too? We all know Cheney wants ongoing reconstruction in Iraq...American and Brit Oil is controlling the cash and flow from Iraq...and a few of the so-called insurgents have been identified as S.A.S. caught in the act in Basra...caught with bombs which they intended to set off in a mosque.

The difference between serious Progressives...and liberals is....we're smarter, we can see the sucker punches coming and we react accordingly...we try to warn you people, but sometimes the truth just goes right past ya...braindead liberals, still believe in a wholesome world.

And all I can think is...stupidity is going to wipe out our very means of survival within the next 5-6 yrs. And you havent even noticed that 'made in china' label is on EVERYTHING!? Merry Christmas!

deals made in the 70s with Chinese industrialists to benefit WalMart and the fascists looking to WalMart the entire working class around the world.

Kneejerk blanket attacks that don't factor in REAL history is unuseful.

Its "unpatriotic".

Please stick with the pre-packaged spin trajectory. We have plausible deniability. Rinse. Wash. Spin.

:sarcasm:

Michael Levine who said that since the European nations and the US began colonizing Africa and the mideast, they've been saying something like, "We'll be happy to step down as soon as they step up and take care of themselves. The trouble is that they never mention how difficult this is for them to do with us standing on them!"

know that that comment is definbeately not fair.

n/t

Read Kerry's IWR floor speech and all his comments when the inspecter's were in - he clearly preferred to avoid war. Even if the IWR would have failed - Bush had the power as CIC to declare an emergency and attack.

You'd be a good candidate if you had one.

I bet Repiggyoinkers like this topic. }(

screw you hil you sellout beast

let that get in the way of a media moment.

need to turn it over as quickly as possible, with a STRONG bi-partisan agreement.

Flame me if you want but with each day that she says stay the course she drops in my mind.

Think of how Dean and McKinney were telling the truth all along and not many Democrats would back them up.

Well now we have enough saying "get Out" for her to make a Bold Plan, bigger than Kerry's in order to be thought of as a strong leader.

I can't believe that Bill would keep trying to push for less. He is usually a smooth operator.

All I know is she needs to dramatically say her PLAN before Thanksgiving or she is just a turkey.

Respect to Hillary, but at this point it's lose-lose no matter how you play it. It seems to me we'll lose much bigger by staying longer. It's a mess and it's not going to get better. Whether we leave now or later, there's going to be a civil war and Iraq is going to be a focal point for terrorist training. All of this brought to you by Bush and PNAC.

I have been telling my son in law for year now that I didn't like Hillary as a choice for president. He ask me why and all I could say is I just don't like her, don't know why. Now she has given me a reason.

From the esteemed junior senator from New York.

:sarcasm:

:mad:

If Murtha meant something ,
he should have just said it {or in resolution form}


if Murtha meant, redeploy to somewher else in Iraq,
he should have said that.

I'm getting tired of,

.............
I won't tell you what I want,
but I demand you do it
.............
as a political stance

And then, just get the fuck outta there!!

which I just emailed to my Senator(Clinton)

I believe before the Iraqi elections, scheduled for mid December, the Iraqi people and the emerging government must be put on notice that the United States will immediately redeploy. All of Iraq must know that Iraq is free. Free from United States occupation. I believe this will send a signal to the Sunnis to join the political process for the good of a “free” Iraq.
My plan calls:

To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces.
To create a quick reaction force in the region.
To create an over- the- horizon presence of Marines.
To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_murtha/pr051117iraq.html

many many people have these plans mixed up.......the GOP plan was nothing but immediate withdrawel.

but what happens if the Iraqis get immediately attacked after we withdraw? Will the reaction force be close enough to help out?

Iran? not likely. Turkey? ditto. Who is going to attack them?

Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia are all threats.

:rofl:

A U.S. withdrawal could be expected to have nasty side effects primarily on the puppets America put in place (Chalabi would be Numero Uno on the endangered list).

Christ, why is this SO HARD for people to understand?

When Bush and his neocon warmongers say "Iraqis", they mean THEIR boys, not anyone else.

They're more of a threat in that region than any of the other countries.

immediately.

They're basically saying the same things, just in different ways. I'm pretty sure that Murtha also thinks it would be a bad idea to up and leave. And Hillary is saying that we need to take things one step at a time, but to start the process of moving out ASAP... AKA, get a damn timeline of when we're leaving.

Murtha's mouth? It's not at all what he called for.

I think his plan was too close to what the Commanders are calling for, too logical, too close to what will probably happen (including that comment on Russert that it will be before our elections).

He almost let the cat out of the bag AND got credit for the plan. Can't have that now can we. :eyes:

Corporatist whoremongers posing as politicians? Yup.

after Friday's scene. I'll admit I probably didn't see all the interviews. Can you fill me in on any Dems that did not? Or are they all Corporatist whoremongers?

As you have not provided a list, I am not going to guess. However any Democrat who continues to preach some form of "stay the course must succeed cannot afford to fail" is either delusional or a corrupt corporate shill, in my opinion of course. That would include Hillary, Bill, John Kerry and Joe Biden, all of whom have made recent pronouncements along these lines, although Kerry, in that list, has come closest to admitting that the whole blunder was a mistake - wrong from the start.

To me, and to a lot of Democrats, the war is a defining issue. Perhaps to you it is not, and I'm fine with that. I will however continue to attack self identified Democratic leaders who in my opinion are supporting our continued criminal presence in Iraq.

issue to me - that's quite a leap from my post and I take offense to that. Perhaps you could re-read all of my orignal post?

As for a list, I'll try to come up with one, no time right now to find the video clips. The quotes slapped up during the Russert interview would be where I would start.

Perhaps I should have qualified my "all Dems" with "in the Senate", or "being interviewed". I certainly did NOT mean to include every Dem in the nation - I wouldn't be able to know what they all are saying - would I?

Cut'n'pasted a lot of stuff various Democrats uttered over the last 2.5 years - out of context and mostly from the prewar period. This has been debunked here on DU, in fact it was pretty well debunked in real time Sunday morning. I assumed you meant recent statements from real people not what Timmy had them say.

Gee I'm really not going to reread all of your original posts, but thanks for the suggestion.

I provided a list of my own: Hillary, Bill, Joe Biden and Kerry, all of whom have taken the time out from their busy schedules to make sure that we know that they continue to be corporate shills and continue to tow the Stay And Die corporatist party line.

I'm waiting for some senate democrats to step up the challenge Murtha has laid down. So far none have. Over in the house it is a different story. Support for Murtha has been pretty good. Murtha opened a huge door through which, if the Democratic Party leadership dared, the way back to majority status might lie. But there is risk, and if there is one thing I am certain about our party leadership it is that they are massively risk averse.

Differentiate between various options with the most immediate withdrawal option submitted by the most hawkish Democrat, who has been criticizing the war for two years straight anyway. Have Murtha lead with the most extreme plan so that the rest of the party could submit this phased approach as a compromise. Just keep talking about change of course and turning Iraq over to the Iraqis. That's how we're going to end this war.

Or the caring of us anyway. We've made our soldiers into scapegoats. We simply sent many kids to their death to protect ourselves from dying from terrorists. It's sick and it's sad.

FUCK THEM!

conclusion that Hillary will be the 2008 Dem nominee. They don't get that she's not wildly popular with the base - because of statements like this. I'm not convinced she's going to run, but if she does she will certainly face opposition from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party.

what she is running for.

and can kiss my ass.

party next time. Screw these entrenched spinless lobster politicians.

Never waste your vote on a 3rd party candidate.

Can you say President Jeb Bush? I knew you could

I do not feel comfortable with. Time for a third party. I am surprised people are still using that lame Nader concept anymore.

it's your Vote, feel free to throw it away

Who promised he'd recount, when he didn't?

I suppose pretending we're doing good can sometimes matter -- but there are those of us sick of keeping up the illusion. Give us a GOOD candidate...or else it's the party's failure, and we just shed the vote for whatever wanton need we may currently have.

hehe, Oh boy .. Hillary you are ripe for ridicule.

should enlist for a combat unit then.

Thus, the spot on the dress.:evilgrin:

If Lewinsky would have just supplimented her diet with a shot of protien that whole impeachment thing would have been avoided.

Poor girl was trying to LOSE weight...

I am not fond of Hillary Rodham Clinton, but can't you leave the Monica jokes to the Lars Larsons and Rush Limbaughs of the world?

We're repeating the mistake in Iraq.

Meanwhile, cut and run.

I personally think the DLC attempt to out McCain McCain is a huge mistake. And I am not at all sad that the DLC has made this blunder.


By 2006 the US will either already be out or making VERY overt moves (like welcome home parades) that our troops are comming home.

The 2006 issue is about to turn into corruption in the House of Representatives, the Senate and the White House.

By 2008 the Iraq war will only be an issue in regards to veterans' benefits.

I won't assume I can guess the BIG ISSUES of 08, but I am pretty sure Iraq ain't one of them. I think that the rising sentiment of anti-corporation, and restoration of federalism could be issues.

Nice grandstanding, hillary.

Hope you lost a lot more respect among the voting dems, as you deserve!

is getting?

:puke:

(Rolling eyes)

like it or not, we have a responsibility at this point.

No more so than a burglar has the right to fix up your house after he breaks into it.

go to jail.

but it doesn't surprise me that some DU'ers are more than a little unfamiliar with the word, let alone the concept. :hi:

WTH?!

war. Sure it is.

:puke:

from murderers.

But obviously you disagree and have bought the bullshit that, having committed the crime of invading a country, we now can justify our illegal occupation through our 'responsibility' to reconstruct Iraq in a manner we find acceptable. I find that justification for our crimes specious, to say the least.

So again, does the burglar, having broken into your house, have a responsibility to fix all the damage before he leaves?

Or perhaps the burglar ought to get out and if he is feeling particularly RESPONSIBLE, take himself to the nearest police station, turn himself in, and offer to pay reparations for the damage he has done.

continuing to put them in harms way for a giant mistake is criminal. Bush broke it and it cant be fixed until we leave.

we have the responsibility to clean up the mess. and unfortunately for the troops- that's the job they signed up for.

Speak for yourself. I fully opposed both the invasion and a continued occupation.

And the Japanese should have stuck around for years and years (oh yeah still killing and torturing people) after the rape of Nanking.

What an absolutely asinine argument.

"the job they signed up for".

That job was to PROTECT America.

Meantime, you can stop breaking it further and stop robbing it blind.

You speak the truth, but that doesn't mean we should take it to another equally bad extreme.

I fail to see how an all out war with the faceless and using chemical weapons, at this point, is fixing anything.

Look at the crap we caused in Afghanistan. We are still there, decades later.

If we get out of Iraq, let's do it right. Have a plan and get the country stable first. We don't want a return trip to fix up the messes on the first exit.

Ummm... she is against an immediate withdrawal, "on the other hand" (that's where she sounds like a vacillating poll-watcher. What is it Hillary? What is the right thing? Have any fucking clue?

Flem.

Like the rest of The Cabal they are a bit under the weather with the change in the basic situation.

The DLC is doing and saying what's right for our Country. And let me add that the DLC policies will get us DEM's back in Power.

Happy days will soon be here again.........Just follow the DLC's lead

I know who I am not supporting in the primaries. She just doesn't get it.

I was willing to give her some slack--but she has just cichned it.

Sorry--I cannot be a Democrat if our nominee is Hillary Clinton, or Joe Biden, or John Kerry.

I happen to react when every day I see reports of our soldiers being killed, or worse, reduced to the barbaric practice of torture, or the killing that is going on of civilians and all the people in Iraq.

Sorry Hillary--you wanted the war--I am convinced.

to get the pukes out of office to be quite honest.

eom

six months anyway; she's taking a gutless no-position on this important issue and in the process lets the current team shithead continue to run this war in the same incompetent way that it has been run the whole goddamn time.

Didn't Bill say the same thing about the elections? They are acknowledging that a withdrawl plan is necessary but believe that the ones currently on the table are premature. What kind of adequate information do they really think they are going to get from Bushco? A completely screwed up election that "proves" they aren't ready would certainly be a good stalling tactic....

Look at the last set.

a retired Marine about what a good military exit strategy would be.

As if the Iraqis are at fault for this madness.

FUCK you, Clinton. You will NEVER get my vote.

Hardly less than that of Bush or Cheney.

Nor will she ever get my vote.

How utterly deplorable that Hillary chooses to side with the Bush administration in repeating this lie.

What would happen if we pulled out now? I think that unfortunately, we're stuck until we're able to manage to get things to be more peaceful...

Why? If we leave now, the rest of the world will make us relive Vietman for years to come...we'll be seen as the Americans who go in and start things that we aren't strong enough/smart enough to finish. That, btw, may indeed be a terrible truth about this country!..
...Pulling out now will also turn all of the Iraqi's who now are hoping and praying that somehow some form of democracy...or at least peace...can be brought to the region. We will then not only have to deal with the rage by those who hate america for our bs...but also those who gave us their trust and who we will have then let down in the worst way.

Should the dems have supported chimpy? Hindsight is 20/20. I was always against the Iraq war and it had little to do with the whole intelligence hoo-ha. Bottom line for me was that Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11 so there was no reason to just up and go to war..... But should we be angry at the dems who supported the president when they were confronted with 1/2 truths and information that was spun?

These are all tough questions and I don't believe in black/white and right/wrong answers (except in my loathing for Bush of course! :evilgrin: )

be some positive( e.g., winning) position in Iraq. Bush et al have proved beyond any doubt that they are not capable of anything even slightly better than up-most, over-whelming, total disaster. All that can happen now in more loss of life. Vietnam Part Deaux.

I don't think that there can be a positive winning position, but I do think that there can be various degrees of losing. What are the consequences of pulling out? It wouldn't just be that things would stay the same there....they wouldn't. Without our troops there now, the place would implode. Imagine the world media coverage on THAT one. "America went in to offer democracy...when they hit the 2000 body count, they pulled out....as we expected...and now the oil fields are all burning, the price of oil has gone up again around the world, the innocent women and children of Iraq that US troops promised to protect are being murdered left and right...etc....We are already a mockery in europe...imagine what would happen if we just cut our losses and came home....

The least evil is that come up with an exit strategy over the next 2 years or so that puts more of the pressure on the Iraqi govt to take charge.....

The real kicker though is that if they fail, we fail too.

The bottom line is that we should never have gone into Iraq in the first place. The only silver lining about Bush being re-elected is that he is having to face the music and they can't blame this mess on a democratic president taking over.

left with!? Bush will lose in the worst way possible and we will kill many more innocent people.

I think you're right. Probably my biggest issue is the not knowing. What if we pull out now and things stay the same...we have saved the lives of our troops and no longer have to foot the bill for this ridiculous mistake. But...what if when we leave (though of course the Iraqi people want us out!) another 'Saddam' comes to power and the area becomes an even worse hotbed for american hating 'terrorists'....which, I blame on Bush in the first place (just FYI).

I don't know what the right answer is..I just don't think it is as simple as saying that we leave.

What about the innocent women and children ...what about the Iraqi men who have supported the US and will likely be killed after we leave?

Americans are so self-centered.

When do we address the desire of the Iraqi people?
Speaking of which, as far as I can tell, a vast majority want us out ... NOW!

haven't officially asked us to get out yet, so it is all good.

We do have to think about our already tattered credibility, but...what about the Iraqi people? They have already endured the deaths of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands of civilians) and though a large portion do want us to leave (and I also want us to make an exit plan ASAP) there are people who now depend on us for their safety and security. The lousy truth is that without our troops there the Iraqi troops probably won't be able to handle things and the govt is likely to revert to a new 'saddam'. Don't you think? What will become of the men and women (and their children) who have supported the US and have hopes of a better life?

Maybe I'm wrong...I'm willing to consider it...but what if I'm not? That's why I just can' support the 'cut and run' thing just yet.

I agree with Murtha that the presence of US troops provokes much of the violence and that US troops are targets. I would wager that any support for Zarqawi and his suicide bomber brigades will dry up in a hurry once the Americans leave. That leaves the Iraqis to sort things out themselves. Maybe they would devolve into full-blown civil war, maybe they would not...

Your concerns about a Vietnam syndrome are misplaced, I think. The US invasion and occupation of Iraq was WRONG, we know it was wrong and the whole whole knows it was wrong. A quick withdrawal would be seen as a defeat for the US, as it should be. Criminal behavior like this does not deserve to be rewarded or applauded. The whole world will see this as the overweening bully getting slapped down, and it should. That's a salutary lesson for the US, one that Vietnam taught us once upon a time, but that we forgot already.

Whether Iraq becomes a democracy or not is up to the Iraqis. Our presence only complicates matters internally and fuels the seemingly endless supply of suicide bombers, as well as widespread loathing for the US across the planet.

We need to get out now. Murtha's plan sounds good.

...or, as you depict it, "reliving Vietnam for years to come," wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, of course.

Losing in Vietnam kept the desire for elective war at bay for quite a few years.

I guess if Bush had actually...been...to vietnam he might have had a different take on things too.

from Tom Engelhardt about the Clintons..

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GK22Ak01.html

Snippet~
"There could, however, be no greater sign of a politically changed landscape than the decision of former president Bill Clinton (who practically had himself adopted into the Bush family over the last year) to tell a group of Arab students in Dubai only two-and-a-half years late that the Iraqi invasion was a "big mistake". Since he is undoubtedly a stalking horse for his wife, that great, cautious ship-of-nonstate, the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, should soon turn its prow ever so slowly to catch the oppositional winds."

I think she's wrong on this one. I also don't like it because it aligns with the republicans.

...Hillary has been trying to position herself dead center, as if to exorcize the image from a decade ago that she was the liberal and Bill the moderate. If anything, her positions over the past few years would place her to the right of her husband.

While it might seem that "running to the center" is a good political strategy to maximize your vote, I'm not so sure. I notice that, no matter how bad poll results may get for Republicans, they always seem to maintain an edge over Democrats on the matter of "leadership," which often comes down to the respect one has for someone who sticks to their stand no matter what (even, it seems, if the pollees thing that stand is dead wrong!). Cutting the cloth of your opinion to fit the fashions of the times (to quote Lillian Hellman's classic line) is not something which wins points in the leadership category, and I think hurts the Democrats overall more than many realize.

I'm sorry, but I just wish the Clintons would take a holiday from their own ambitions for just once!

Only a Clinton could possibly try to marginalize someone of the stature of John Murtha for their own political appetite!

Only a Clinton could diminish the selfless act of courage that John Murtha exhibited last week with their own selfish public posturing.

Only a Clinton could or would sacrifice the hard work and efforts by so many Democrats who have finally stepped up to their responsibilities to challenge this dangerous administration in order to further the Clnton's image.

Of course, this is right out of Dick Morris's triangulation method of defeating your enemies and your friends at the same time so that you alone look good.

Well, now that Mrs. Clinton has not-so-subtly criticized John Murtha's call for a rapid pull-out and redeployment of our troops, I think it's high time for Bill and Hillary to offer their own concrete plan on how to extract our sons and daughters from the war that Hillary Clinton publicly supported and voted for in the Senate.

What's your plan Senator Clinton? We clearly understand the plan of Bush and Cheney which is to stay as long as it takes to "stableize" Iraq. We now know clearly what John Murtha's plan is (which by the way you, Senator Clinton, mischaracterized today). But we do not know what the Clinton plan is, do we? Why? Because Hillary doesn't have a plan, just an addiction to the Clinton megalomania.

All I can say is how many more do we have to lose till Dec 15 Mrs. Clinton. The Iraqis need to stand on their own two feet. They themselves our calling for a deadline. So there we have it Dec 15 is our withdrawal date. We our done no WMD no Saddam and free elections we won you take over from here. This blood is on their hands all of them who voted for this invasion.

her vast military experience?

and if not, what possible historical precedent does she base this on?

why should we listen to her?

:puke:

Never in a million fucking years.

knows damn well that our very existence in Iraq is causing the terrorist attacks and murders of innocent Iraqis and our troops everyday...if we cut and run the violence would most likely end...Hilary knows this but she has too look like she is strong in fighting terror and so she will support our troops and innocent Iraqis dying for her career....

Hillary... I don't think I can support you anymore. This is just one thing too many.

I am starting to think I may have to ACTIVELY oppose you. I never thought that I would do that, but your actions are Republican in every way other than social issues.

good of Israel....didn't she just get back from there? Prolly got her marching orders.

What about the fact that it's ILLEGAL and IMMORAL?? Or doesn't that mean anything to you?

This woman DISGUSTS me!

There never was an initiative for IMMEDIATE PULLOUT! How about answering the question a bit more honestly and stop falling for this shit!

ass, they'll NEVER vote for her! Move to left and maybe, I said maybe, you'll have a chance.

she doesn't seem to have a center and from her recent actions they look to be on the Repub side of things.

All I see her doing is things that piss me off. Where was she when they closed the senate? Talking about bird flu. Where was she when Murtha suggested redeployment? Condemning a statement Murtha did not make. Where was she when Bush was still popular and pushing his agenda? Fighting video games.

Sorry, but that isn't a leader. That is a follower. Unfortunately she isn't following our leaders either.

They want us out, if they are going to fight each other they will do it whether or not we have troops there.

Since when has a bunch of 'WMD holding', 'terrorist', 'gun weilding' 'insurgents' been the defenseless little lambs people make them out to be when it's a good political point? How can we shephard what is both a lamb and a wolf? Even if you favor one -- you can't have it both ways. That's the ENTIRE problem with the war on iraq, is we as a people cannot have a clear concise outlook on who the iraqi people are.

They are strong proud people, hornets who are stinging our troops...in self defense. Has anyone ever tried to put back a hornet's nest they accidentally broke? Why try to fix iraq?

Iraqi leaders agree on timetable for foreign forces withdrawal

BEIJING, Nov. 22 -- Leaders of Iraq's sharply divided Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis have agreed there should be a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign troops from the country.

Meeting in the Egyptian capital Cairo, they also agreed that although resistance was a right, all acts of terror should be condemned.

After three days of negotiations, the participants in an Arab League national accord conference issued a final statement, as Secretary General of the Arab League Amr Moussa made the announcement:

"We request the withdrawal of the foreign forces according to a timetable, which will be achieved by starting an immediate national programme to re-establishing a military that is trained, prepared and armed that is qualified to protect the borders, maintain the security situation and the safety of citizen and nation."

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-11/22/content_3815867.htm

want the US out.
80% of the Iraqi population wants the US out.
60% of the American public no longer supports the occupation.

Bush and Hillary - Stay the course!

If only Bush or Hillary would tell us what "the course" is.

I want no part of a politician or leadership that views unprovoked violence against the world as a national birthright.

You're the moral equivalent of Bush, Hillary. How sad is that?

i think more of us should.

:sarcasm:

Embracing the dark side?

A immediate U.S. withdrawal from Iraq would send the wrong message though out the world. And in your heart of hearts YOU ALL KNOW THIS

Lets put aside our Hate for Bush and do the right thing for the
Country and our children

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has really impressed me with her ability to not follow the polls, and do and say what's best for the Country no matter how it hurts her poll numbers with "Some" on the Left

Peace and safety is not costs free.



Good Job Senator

Fluffdaddy

Military commanders are not unified in this position, but there are a growing number who are stating that: Staying is doing more harm than the amount of good our continued presence might have.

Why? That's impossible. We bought it.. Blah blah blah

1. Most of our troops on the ground in Iraq are not trained for this mission. Ask any marine if he is trained for an urban police operation, let alone if he understands the subtleties of Iraqi culture. Then ask the national guard if their training is sufficient. SERIOUSLY ASK, and you might start to question your detached armchair acceptance and advocacy of war.

2. You think Democrats dislike Bush. How many of us have lost a friend or family member in Iraq because of this unjust war? How many of us have radical extremists whispering in our ear every day telling us how to get even. How many of us are cut off in traffic nearly daily by troop carriers shooting over our heads? Again our boys are for the most part not trained for this, they are understandably edgy and making some bad calls in the field, and deep in your heart you know you would be outraged if you were in their shoes. Yep you got it the longer we hold onto a war that was started on a lie the deeper the resentment goes, and guess what? The more extremists we have running around willing to blow themselves up.

3. The Iraqi people don't want us there. 83% of the Iraqi people do not feel that American troop presence is improving their security. A majority want us to leave. But hey we're spreading democracy, who gives a flock what the people think, or want.

Show some real courage, and trust the Iraqi people to find their way. Are you afraid we'll loose some oil? Afraid the middle east might gain more power than you are comfortable with? Perhaps you just like to buy duct tape and plastic (remember that fear) every time you are uncomfortable. I have friends over there, and I owe it to them to do what I can to get them home.

are saying EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

really nothing at all. YEEE HAAAAAW said Haliburton et al.

Economic interests have nothing to do with why we're staying, it's all about the good, true thing we feel deep down.:sarcasm:

I have heard this crap from the corporate swine all week. What message is it? Be specific.

So don't say you do.

Why don't we put aside our hatred and do what is right for IRAQ?

I notice a bunch of you guys jumping all over Hil for this. If you read all four paragraphs, it all makes sense. Just loading up the trucks and getting out of Dodge would indeed be bad. It's not the way we should be doing things, no matter how strongly you might feel about our involvement there.

FTR: I thought it was an idiotic idea from Day One, and I knew then we were being lied to.

If there is a way to leave something good behind, to minimize the chaos that would ensue the day after we left, and somehow save face, we should do that. This is all Sen. Clinton is saying. I don't think anyone at DU believes that a full-blown Iraqi civil war in '06 is an acceptable outcome. A well-constructed and flexible redeployment timetable that would be implemented sometime in the spring of '06 would be something close to what a majority of us find acceptable at this point.

Of course, I'm dreaming just like the rest of you. We'll probably still be slogging it in Iraq into the '08 election cycle and beyond.

None of us wanted to get into this never ending shit hole but here we are thanks to Liars, Thieves and Repukes - oh sorry that was rather redundant!
Hil has a plan to get us out of this shit hole and save many lives of Soldiers and Citizens.
* hole got us into this mess, it will be the Dem's to get us out.
We need to continue to support our Democratic Leaders as they try to lay forward an exit plan since NO ONE in the WH gives a damn.
Our entire country would be looked upon like nasty rat bastard Emperor Bush if we were to cut and run without some type infrastructure in Iraq. I agree with trogdor, an immediate pull out would mean complete chaos and civil war. We would be deploying troops back again this time the problem would be more wide spread and disastrous for everyone.
My Aunt went to Iraq to act as a human shield in the days leading up to our invasion. She has shared her horrible eye witness accounts as we blasted away Iraq. Staying for months, she worked with children and woman trying to keep their lives together, carrying dead babies and picking up body parts, attempting to provide some sense of love to those whose innocent loved ones were blown apart. Civil war would would provide the same carnage. Yes we need to get out as soon as possible but in an intelligent manner.
Everyone please, expressing your views here at DU is great, however we are all similar minded people,push, speak out, call and write to newspaper's, Senators, Congress the WH or it will be 08 before we can begin to pull out..
Love to the DU - Happy Holidays and...think of buying one less gift and donating that money to the DU. This is a place we can all give thanks to.
:kick:

Someone else with some damn common sense on how the world really works

Thank you

sense, only common point of view.

Retaining a presence there, whether gradually reduced or permanent is the crux of the problem. If our occupation is causing insurgency, how does our continued occupation eliminate it?
The problem with staged pullout based on a series of goals is that the goals cannot realistically be met UNTIL we pull out, so its a catch 22.

common sense is NOT what I would call the DLC agenda here.

The DLC stay and die reformed post-Murtha stance is just more of the same. Somehow the Iraqis will conform to our definitions of success and then we can leave. Stability will break out - despite the fact that our troops are the major destabilizing factor - and then our troops can leave. So we will Stay and Die, until we grow so weary of the dying that no politician with a pending election will support the vile bastards in charge of this, and then we will leave. And the dead? Who will speak for all of the dead that will pile up year after year until we finally leave?

and our risk adverse leadership will be left to explain why their pull-out plan was better. If my friends presence at a party is enraging people to the point of violence, do we leave or do we keep some people there to control the rage?:crazy:

was anyone fooled? I wasn't.

When the DLC and the GOP want the same thing...what does that tell you?

--await Iraq's Dec. 15 elections for a clue--

I'm glad the adults are in charge of this country.

The new rallying cry, of which is unattainable.

--"until the job is done"--

This is a RepubliCON meme,
that Murtha, er, ah,
Murtha's bill, er, ah,
the Murtha inspired bill(shhhh, written by RepubliCONs) said immediate withdrawl.
Murtha DID NOT.
Murtha's bill DID NOT.

RepubliCONs wrote a bill calling for immediate withdrawl -- not dems.

I question that Hillary even said immediate withdrawl.
If she did, she did not do her homework.
If she did not, this so-called journalist needs an asterisk, because he risking his own *.

Sorry, Hillary, you are the one that needs a clue.
Any seat you run for now, you will not get my vote.

more spineless words from the scattered Democratic leaders.

I haven't the foggiest clue as to why she continues on this path of polictical correctness. At this rate, if she ever runs for prez, she will have some major explaining to do regarding her rational on this war.

Could it be that New Yorkers, whom she represents, believe that pulling out of Iwreck could de-stabilize the region?

What is the polling on the war in her State?

She hasn't even had the decency to erect that fig leaf "I was duped". Sorry Hillary, but you're not going to get my vote, either in the primary or the general election if you get that far.

Hillary is not bush-lite. She is pushing for a strategy...but she just doesn't embrace the idea of cutting the losses and backing out.
I think it's just too extreme to say that people won't support/work for or vote for anyone who voted for the initial Iraq war resolution.

Have we all forgotten how the intelligence reports were twisted and made to look like Hussein was an immediate threat? Have we all forgotten the 'Zeitgeist' back then? We weren't privy to all of the behind-closed-doors conversations.

I don't support the Iraq war and I never have. I think Bush should actually be tried as a war criminal....but...I don't think second-guessing the votes of those who voted to give Bush the ability to go to war if needed at a time when we had recently been attacked and these people were receiving bs intelligence is a good use of my time.

Sort out the good from the bad by their actions now.

We all know that politics is alive and well in everything....it stinks that people have waited so long to get some kahunas and come out against this war...but at least they are now.

Hillary Clinton has also done a lot of good....

She said "I think that would cause more problems for us in America." And i agree with her.

What part of 80% don't you understand?

80% of whom...Who was polled ..

And then I'd ask what about the 20% who know that they'll basically be left to fend for themselves in a country with terrible turmoil now if we just pull out and go. Do we have a responsibility to those 20%?

Also..80% may indeed want us to leave...that doesn't mean that if we left things wouldn't implode.

.... Hillary is always a front runner.

So, she disagrees. Well isn't that special. And on what experience or accomplishments does she base her opinion? What foreign policy or military achievements can she claim? In fact, I've asked before and I 'll ask again, exactly what has Hillary Clinton ever accomplished (aside from being elected senator) that is exemplary? What?

informing them that we will not support any democratic politician who supports the war.

We have to take control or we'll be controlled forever.

I just wrote the DNC and plan on writing a lot more today.

for them with intentionally misleading statements like this.

The Repukes want the public to believe a lie, that Rep. Jack Murtha has called for "immediate" withdrawal from Iraq. Murtha has said no such thing, Hillary, and you KNOW it. The House Repukes are the ones that put up that fraudulent sham of a resolution last Friday calling for "immediate" withdrawal just so they could vote against it and then get their media whores to spin all their lies about it.

You're doing their ugly job for them, you miserable, wretched Repuke whore.

Kerry and others should LAMBAST this witch with her own words and the true facts and knock her out of any conceivable contention for the 08 Presidential race NOW.

Strangely for a story on page three, there was no mention of it in their online addition, so I cant post a link.

Basically the story said that about 100 iraqis, many of them running in the election, met under the invitation of the Arab League, and agreed that they wanted a fixed timetable for 'foreign' troops to withdraw from their lands.

So it seems we are in the strange position that everyone except the neocons (and the neocon lites on the democrat list) want us out of Iraq.

that a timetable is a good thing... immediate withdrawal may just be too risky.

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is what we need to see. Was the need to make a public statement criticizing the comments of a veteran Democrat to show that she's tough enough to speak out in disagreement with a soldier ? So we're supposed to see that she's PResidential that way? Whoopee. At the expense of the country seeing more Democratic in-fighting.

I mean the soldiers are perfectly fit for dying; mothers are perfectly capable of losing their children, to protect the fat ass rat bastard corporate scoundrels of this country.

Better them than us, right hillary? That's the democratic way -.-

:sarcasm: :banghead:

This seems a bit like the great white father thinking,paternalism.

Like the Iraqis asked for America to destroy their country? Like America was even invited over? Exactly what have Iraqis asked us "to do" for them? When did they ask America to "take care" of them?

Those lazy warfare Queens! Just sitting around all day, doing nothing - expecting America to maintain their welfare! How dare they! They need to get over their hard times and get about taking care of themselves! What's a few bombed out cities and villages? What's the lack of clean water and electricity in the grand scheme of things? Home vaporized? So what! Start taking care of yourself! Pick yourself up, dust of the debris.

That's what the quote sounds like to me anyway, like somehow the Iraqis caused all this - that somehow it's their fault because they just won't get with the program. That everything wrong about America invading Iraq (from the beginning to(whatever) end) is because the Iraqis expect the Americans to "take care of them".

And Bill Clinton, you were a corporate lackey, too. Our economy was a little bit better under you because you cared a little bit, and our work ethic is so strong, that given half a chance, America will succeed. Bush just gives us no chance. You gave us half.

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How many more soldiers does Hillary want to see dead while we're "waiting" to see if Iraq can get itself together?!

Screw her. She will never be my president any more than * is!

give bush the IWR vote, eh hillary?

a disgusting, sorry, transparently disingenuous statement, praising Murtha personally, but taking advantage of his honesty and forthrightness to misconstrue his message to dispense with and dismiss its true substance: that there is no "job to be done", no "mission" to complete and no "plan for succcess" is going to change the fact that our presence does us no good and puts the troops in danger for no valid reason.

Even Kerry didn't try that kind of repub spin to maintain his worthless, bankrupt war position.

Who does she think is gonna buy this, as carefully focus group tested while so calculated and cynically based as it is?

a total she-devil war lovin lying all the time BIATCH!

Even the Iraqis want a time table.