Indiana Supreme Court Upholds Abortion Waiting Period

The Indiana Supreme Court on Wednesday upheld a law that requires women seeking an abortion to get counseling about medical risks and alternatives, and to wait at least 18 hours after the session before going through with the procedure.

The court ruled in a 4-1 vote that opponents of the law could not pursue their lawsuit, which argued that privacy is a core right under the state constitution that extends to women seeking to end their pregnancies.

The court said such a challenge would fail because the law "does not impose a material burden on any right to privacy or abortion that may be provided or protected" under the state constitution.

The court said it was not ruling on whether the state constitution included a right to privacy or abortion.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051123/ap_on_re_us/abortion_law

Tell that to a young mother who has leave her kids with a family member for a couple days to drive halfway across the state to access an abortion provider. Meanwhile, in the two days she's gone the convenience store where she works will fire her for missing work.

I believe many people would be surprised how few places abortions are available...especially to the poor.

Indiana has always been a conservative state, but now our state government is carreening towards the "Wing-Nut" position. Just a few other interesting examples of Indiana laws:

1. In Indiana, rape can only occur between members of different genders.

2. Last session, the state legislature tried to restrict adoption in Indiana to only legally married heterosexual couples.

3. This session, the legislature considered a bill that would restrict the use of in vitro fertilization (and all other alternative methods of conception) to married heterosexual couples.

4. Indiana students are required (under penalty of discipline) to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance every morning, including the phrase "Under God". As a Christian, I have no problem with that phrase. My youngest child, however, studies Wicca and finds that phrase offensive.

Man, I am SO proud of my state goverment!!!! :sarcasm:

for unmarried women?

I think they dropped that when the fallout became too great.

airport last summer, there was a huge billboard on the interstate that proclaimed "Welcome to Indiana - PROUD to be pro-life state!'





I thought, cynically, - wow! they've stopped executions in Indiana.

made in the heat of the moment. it's simiLar to the waiting period for guns.

I'm pro-choice...but..what's wrong with giving a woman an 18 hour window to think things through? This is a huge decision that shouldn't be made emotionally or right after/during a meeting.

I think it's actually pretty appropriate...but then again..I also support a waiting period before someone can buy a gun and I don't think planned parenthood should be able to perform abortions on minors without parental consent.

walks into the doctor's office, she has made up her mind. Why put her through this paternalistic wait?

Many areas are without abortion providers, so long trips & overnight stays might be needed. Also, someone to take care of the children or other family responsibilities. And bosses who will let the women off work. Texas has the same rules & the size of our state makes this even worse.

Planned Parenthood does far more than terminate pregnancies. Contraception is among the medical services they offer; they have prevented far more unwanted pregnancies than they have ended. Formerly, minors in Texas could get permission from a judge if circumstances warranted. Now, that loophole has been closed.

Women do not decide about abortion "right after/during a meeting." They know before they ever walk into the Clinic.

about it? :eyes:

Oh and that whole thing about emotional decision marking is pretty fucking condescending.

is that it should be the woman's (or girl's) decision whether she should wait or not,
not someone else who is trying to control her!

:nuke:

a girl may not be mature enough to understand the emotional repercussions of her decision until years later...

she may experience are the result of other people pressuring her to feel guilty for having an abortion.

And she may feel emotional repercussions later on from having a child at too young of an age,
especially if her decision was based upon other people pressuring her to have that child.

just to make sure that she isn't haunted by the decision later in life.

Bullshit

"understanding the emotional repercussions of a decision years later"? I will concede that some women experience horrible regret years after having had an abortion. The reasons are varied, complex, and beyond the scope of this thread. But that (long) delayed ambivalence is irrelevant to the time period immediately surrounding a termination. The decision has been made by the time the woman presents herself to the clinic, IMHO.

I have plenty of mixed feelings regarding abortion but these waiting periods feel oppressively paternalistic, at best.

she is not a "girl"; she is a woman. And if you don't think a young woman is mature enough to make a decision re: abortion, what makes you think she is mature enough to be a mother or to decide to give the child up for adoption? And what about the fact that it is much more dangerous to be pregnant in your teen years than to get an abortion.

she makes an appointment at an abortion clinic. Abortion is not something we enter into thinking "Oh, this will be FUN!"

When I was young and single and pregnant it was difficult to get time off work to get to the clinic and have an abortion. I was lucky enough to have the $$ to pay for it.

I (and every woman I know who has been through this) thought long and hard about the decision and in the end made the choice which was right for me. And I made that decision LONG BEFORE I walked through the clinic doors.

This law interferes with the doctor-patient relationship. There are cases where the doctor might honestly believe that an abortion is necessary for his or her patient's health. If all the parties involved believe that this procedure is necessary, what is the purpose of the wait? Is it to make the woman feel guilty for not being a good little broodmare?

That's the real problem here. Let doctors do their job, let patients make their own decisions about their health care, and let's just all keep our noses out of someone else's health business.

There's no mandatory waiting period for other surgical procedures. Did they put in an exemption for if it's a tubal pregnancy or something life threatening? Waiting that long can kill the mother.

Should there be a mandatory waiting period for plastic surgery? It's not like it's a matter of life and death. What about dental work? Would any of us be okay with some odd state rule about waiting periods for anything other than abortion?

Abortion waiting periods already exist. It can take time to get into the right office and then time to book the procedure. They are already there in how medicine is practiced these days. That's enough.

believe that claptrap? Do you honestly think that women see the little pink line on the pregnancy dip-stick, toss it down and trot down to the abortion clinic on the corner for a quickie?

Pregnancy doesn't destroy brain cells, you know (raising children does that :evilgrin: ). Women are still able to think after they have conceived.

Abortion is neither simple nor easy on any level -- physically, emotionally, socially and financially. By the time a woman walks into a clinic, she's spent many, many more than 18 hours making the decision. This is just another attempt to prevent women from ending a pregnancy. The real agenda is the "counseling" that they are forced to receive -- followed by the mandatory "time-out" to allow the guilt to set in.

I speak as someone who was involved in the counseling of young women...and though many women do indeed go into the situation sure of their decision, many others simply feel trapped by their circumstances and are unable to see an "out". These are people who may indeed suffer serious regret later on. This isn't my opinion, it is well-documented. For some women, the emotional scars of having had an abortion are actually quite deep....it is why I think that asking them to wait 1 day after counseling is appropriate. I also believe that Planned Parenthood and ALL organizations that do abortion counseling should be required to present all options..including adoption, financial help programs for unwed mothers, etc. As it is, Planned Parenthood has burned a lot of bridges by posting their "I had an abortion t-shirt" online etc. Their current level of counseling in our area is quite lacking.


I undertand that Planned Parenthood offers other healthcare services. Unfortunately, in our area, they have a history of what borders on medical negligence when it comes to dealing with women's health issues (ie gyn exams for the pill that miss major, major issues) as well as serious failings in their dealings with hiv testing and patients.

Oh, and FYI...you'd be surprised at how easily a poor person here can get an abortion...and even more surprised by how your minor daughter could get one without your consent...

"And that's bad?..."

I mean, about minors being able to get an abortion without parental consent. It's unpleasant for the parent but, hasn't this bridge been crossed a long time ago, when children stopped being treated as property?

anyway, and stand in unity those with deep emotional scars of having had an abortion. Because if you had one, whether you regret it or not later, you shouldn't feel shame on any level.

Who cares about bridges with anti-choice, faux-moral fundies anyway?

I think it is demeaning to think that women have not thought through this issue CAREFULLY before making an appointment for an abortion. Also, those agencies who 'counsel' about adoption only present one side of it. They are paid by the fees they make off adoptions. Of course they are going to tell a pregnant woman what a 'wonderful, unselfish choice' adoption is. They aren't going to tell her about any ways for her to keep her baby, and they aren't going to tell her the negative aspects of adoption (which there are many more than people realize, for the adoptee and the birth family).

And as for Planned Parenthood, the ones that I have been to for my healthcare, and yes, for abortion, were wonderful, and did present other options. Their counselling was very complete, and I sure didn't need an extra day to 'think it over', as if it was whim.

Waiting periods put undue hardship on women because of the expense and time they take, especially when there is only a few abortion providers in an entire state.

And please, if you know where a poor person can easily get an abortion without paying $500 up front to a clinic, please let me know. And as for minors, I believe they have every right to abortion. In most states, pregnant minors are considered 'temporarily emancipated' and can make all decisions for their fetus or born children... except abortion. Including signing away their parental rights to place a child for adoption. If you want parental consent for abortion, you should want it for adoption and for EVERY SINGLE LEGAL DECISION a minor parent makes for their child.

I counseled individuals as a part of my graduate studies in Psychology...and saw people from all walks of life...with all kinds of backgrounds and life stories.

Not everyone responds to abortion in the same way...


Oh...I have to sign to take my daughter to the dentist, to the ER...hell, to let her go on a school field trip. I am legally responsible for any actions of my children and if one of my children would choose to skip school, as the mother, I CAN be JAILED for it...So...don't tell me that if I have the responsibility for my child's actions that I don't have the right to know about a major health decision like an abortion.

Believe it or not, there are also health risks associated with abortion. Is planned parenthood prepared to foot the bill if any of those happen?

In the sense of "your right to swing your fist ends at my face," a woman's motherly rights end at her daughter's motherly rights, including the decision not to be a mother.

I can sympathize with the view that you have an absolute right to participate in all issues regarding your child without agreeing that it has any basis in modern American law.

that as long as the govt. is then willing to pay for any and all medical/psychological needs post-abortion for a minor child and won't be requiring the parents to pay...then it might...be a diff. issue.

As it is, a minor child can have an abortion...a medical procedure that comes with risks..without the consent of the parent...but the parent will be responsible legally and financially for the procedure should things go wrong.

If it didn't, then this would be a different issue because the balance of interests would be changed.

But, pregnancy has risk, too...

Anyway. I'm male. This is where I bow out of such an issue. I'll never make this decision for anyone, and I have no desire to pressure anyone by proxy through elected representatives to make a decision one way or the other...

and for those daughters with abusive parents or parent -- i pity them with your logic.

your logic only works when all parents are responsible, reasonable people -- and that across the board measurement has yet to be created.

it's sadistic.

What about the non-abusive parents out there? The ones that would possibly escort their child to the abortion clinic and the doctor etc? Most girls who become pregnant as young teens are terrified of telling their parents...allowing an easy abortion without parental notification puts a wedge between parent/child...the child may choose the 'uterine evacuation' and then have another huge secret to keep from the parent...

Not all parents are abusive...you are protecting the minority by removing the rights of the majority. If a child is being abused by their parents then I think they should be able to come to planned parenthood, say that they are being abused....they should be placed in protective custody...

If my daughter ever got pregnant at 14, I would want to know. I would likely drive her to the clinic myself...but I'll be damned..I'd take her myself..and I would want to be able to care for her afterwards and listen to her if she needed to talk about the abortion or sex or the boy or whatever....

Oh, and if a 14 year old is 'mature' enough to have an abortion without parental consent then we need to lower the age of sexual consent as well... Or...would you argue that a 14 year old is mature enough to have an abortion..just not sex?

unreasonable.

missy from family ''a'' has understanding, reasonable parents -- they adapt with fewest ''scars'' from an uncomfortable situation.

jenny from family ''b'' has folks or a folk who simply do not care -- and on occassion are abusive.
unlike miss, jenny has uncertainty and trauma of different types built into her life.

it is unreasonable to saddle jenny with restrictions that could put in a variety of dangers.

laws have to built for all of us -- meaning that leeway when it comes to privacy and minors has to be built in -- because we ain't all the same.

i'm not going to argue sexual consent with you because you have a peculiar idea of what ''family life'' is like for to many people.

i'm a guy but i was having sex by the time i was thirteen -- girls in my family all had sex by the same age -- so i come from a really different place than you do in this regard.

Why the double standard? I think you are taking this way too personally. We are not talking about YOUR child. YOUR child would most likely tell you she's pregnant -- as would the vast majority of young girls. The ones who can't or won't tell their parents have a reason. Whether it be physical, sexual or emotional abuse, or knowing that their parents would not support their decision, and possibly kick them out on the street.

If a teenage girl is pregnant and goes to the hospital in labor, do you think the hospital staff refuses to admit her because she doesn't have her parent's consent? NO, because at that point she is an emancipated minor. Just as it should be, if she was going to have a safe and legal abortion.

And, study after study have shown there are FAR more risks to childbirth for teens than there are risk for safe, legal, first trimester abortions (which make up 95% of all abortions).

Another note -- does the hospital foot the bill if a teenage mother has complications regarding childbirth? No? Then why are you expecting Planned Parenthood to foot the bill if a rare complication comes up in regard to abortion?

my daughter can't go to the ER, see a pediatrician or go to school without me 'signing' for her.

She may be able to deliver a baby without my consent, but only because the process of labor and delivery is one that isn't easily halted in a term baby. The child can also refuse to divulge the name of the parent...at which time..social services would get involved.

And btw...many hospitals do end up footing the bills for labors and deliveries gone wrong...in the form of lawsuits. I'm not suggesting labor and delivery are without risks...however...I prefer to be able to make an informed choice for my child...if that choice is an abortion, so be it..but it will be a choice that I'm involved in.

AND...one of the main reasons that teen pregnancies have such a high rate of complications is failure to secure pre-natal care to deal wit issues that arise like placental problems, gestational diabetes, etc....

Legally, a pregnant teen is an ADULT in the eyes of the law. How many times do I have to say it? She has all the rights and responsibilities of an adult when it comes to parenting her child, OR when it comes to caring for herself during pregnancy. She certainly CAN go to the doctor without your consent if she is pregnant. She is EMANCIPATED in that regard. It doesn't matter if she still has to get your permission for OTHER things... in regards to her pregnancy, and her own child, she DOES NOT.

Clear now?

I didn't realize that. I still dont' think it's right though.

You are ont so concerned about the effect of an abortion on your kid. But there might be medical expenses afterward! You would be liable.

Of course I'm concerned with the emotional effect on my child...which is why I don't take the idea of abortion in general lightly..in my opinion abortion should not be a form of contraception and people that run around wearing "I had an abortion" t-shirts are disgusting to me. There are times when abortion is a necessary and acceptable option but it is not a benign procedure.

I was trying to make a point about the legal/financial aspects...I also mentioned the emotional aspects earlier in the thread and was basically told that I didn't know what I was talking about.."most people don't suffer after an abortion" blah, blah, blah. And btw..if my daughter were to have an abortion at planned parenthood without my notification I'd sue the crap out of them....or burn them down...or..both.

My children are all very precious to me and if the govt is prepared to emancipate them at 14 if they deliver a baby, then they better be prepared to pony up at 14 if they advocate a medical procedure with potential physical and emotional risks for my child without my consent.

:mad:

those t-shirts are meant to COUNTER the stigma that right wingnuts try to put on women who have abortions. The reverse scarlet letter as it were.

A box of condoms, the pill, diaphrams.... all cost WAY LESS than abortions for a years safety. Unfortunately birth control is NOT 100% effective.

My first pregnancy was due to antibiotics when I was on the pill - this was in the 70's BEFORE they put that info regarding need to use another form of contraception the month after taking the antibiotics....

I had friends get pregnant using diaphragm - amazed to learn (at the clinic - docs sure didn't tell them) that it is only effective in MISSIONARY position....

no one I know regards abortion as a contraceptive - the huge expense of abortion alone should disabuse YOU of the foolishness of such a notion...

something else entirely.

It's not a proud exclamation...like 'I got a promotion! pat me on the back!'.

It's a statement of fact, to show that it is not something to be ashamed of. If every single woman who had an abortion wore that shirt on the same day, you would be amazed at the diversity walking past you in the grocery store, the schools, the churches, the street, the mall, and in your neighborhood. That is what it means. Remove the 'disgusting' stigma, and replace it with reality, that real women choose to have abortions for a myriad of reasons, none of which are anyone else's business but theirs and their health care providers.

and that includes minors as well. Any child that is pregnant that feels they can go to their parents for support will, law or no law, any child that feels they can't, won't, law or no law. Back alleys, falls down stairs, hidden pregnancies with no prenatal care, planned beatings, etc...all to end the pregnancy, will occur if access to safe, legal abortions are not an option for those young women.

If your daughter, or son, for that matter, was in an accident at school, as an example, and required immediate medical attention, then they are given that attention, regardless as to whether or not you can be contacted to "sign" something.

You are trying to draw similarities between two radically different situations.

just curious. What if she really didn't want to carry the pregnancy and WAS emotionally unstable. Would you force her? Strap her to the stirrups. Tie her to a hospital bed?


Edited to add: Women used to throw themselves down stairs, use clothes hangers and drink poison and many died horrible deaths. Is this what you want for you daughter and granddaughters ? Do you want to return to the good old days?

without parental consent!

Ever heard of a minor getting pregnant by incest? Such as a Dad or StepDad?
So do you think that he should have control over what that child decides to do about it???:wtf:

No offense but it seriously doesn't sound like you have as much experience as you say.
Try getting a little more streetwise before you do any counseling on this subject.

Yes, girls do get pg through incest...they also get pg by having unprotected sex with their boyfriends....imagine THAT. There are unfortunate family situations of abuse and that is why I think that any child in that situation should be able to come into planned parenthood and recieve immediate protection from the parents.

To take away my rights because there are some cases of incest that result in pregnancy is simply not ok.

I can't believe that you guys advocate abortion for minors without parental notification.

What is wrong with this world?

I'll have to quit posting on this thread now.

I just believe in Freedom, and I don't believe in people controlling others.

And FYI, if your daughter became a victim of incest don't expect "the System" to protect her.
This is why I believe that there should be no parental notification laws.
The hard truth on that subject is that you would most likely have to take her and run.

It's important to have a close, non-judgemental relationship with your daughter
so that she feels trusting enough of you that she could actually tell you if she ever got pregnant,
even if it was by unprotected sex with a boyfriend.

But she has to trust you to be able to tell you.
I don't think that force is the answer.

I disagree whole-heartily however you have reminded me that I need to send my quarterly check to Planned Parenthood.

In my mind a poor person should be able to get an abortion without hindrance just like the rich.

Instead they have made it harder for women by having them travel far and wide and jump through hoops just because of the decision that she has made about HER body.

No one wants to be in a position of having to decide whether to have an abortion but when a woman sees a doctor, more likely than not she has thought about the consequences of her decision. IMO, This is just one more way to chip away at womens rights.

By the way I live in a large city in Southern California and we have one listing in the phone book and it is Abortion Alternatives, wonder if they counsel women on abortion? I highly doubt it.

My gut reaction would be to ask who died and left you in charge of other people's decision regarding anything, and how you feel it's a good thing to have the government involved in those decisions?

WITHOUT parental consent.

there are girls out there with fundy-type parents who would throw their "slut" daughters out on the street if they found out they were pregnant...or even just having sex.

to provide easily accesible resources for these girls? ie protective custody, counseling etc...At the end of the day, with or without an abortion it might provide these girls in a better situation at the end of the day.

what if the girl doesn't want protective custody, counseling, etc...? what if she just wants to have an abortion and go home, and not make the same mistake again...? (and especially doesn't want her parents to know)

after all..it is all about what the child wants then, and not what might be better for them in the long run, isn't it? A child who is being molested or abused but doesn't WANT to be helped or protected shouldn't be protected? How is providing this child who obviously is living in such an awful situation that her parents are volatile enough to toss her out onto the streets or beat her or God knows what with a quick abortion and sending her home helping her exactly...other than alleviating the immediate problem at hand.

I'm not saying this child shouldn't be able to receive an abortion...she should just be taken into protective custody if her parents are an actual danger...

Imagine the child whose parents aren't a danger to her. She's afraid to tell them because she might disappoint them or they will initially be angry (though not abusive). She is terrified, so she goes and gets an abortion...only to discover that now she has an even bigger secret to hide from her parents. Now she becomes moody, depressed and feels alienated from her family and they have no idea why.....

I breifly was involved in the counseling a girl in this position who went from making straight A's to nearly flunking out...she quit the volleyball team, started hanging out with the 'wrong' crowd and generally...fell apart. The thing that finally helped her was being able to tell her parents and grieving with them for her perceived loss of childhood and the mistakes that she had made since then. It was quite sad. That kid lost 2 years of her life over it....

When I read threads like this I can't help but wonder how she is now...she was turning the corner when we students were able to become involved...but it wasn't a simple thing...She came from a good family, was popular and simply like many teens became sexually active before she was ready....

Abortion is not the easy answer that many of you on these forums propose. Most women don't just 'go home and try not to make the same mistake'...some move on with their lives until they become young adults and get pg because they want to...then they go to their first ultrasound appointment and fall apart.

I also met a mom of 3 who became pg and just felt like she couldn't handle another pregnancy because her children were small. As the procedure got started, she was told she was pg. with twins...and she went through with it. Afterwards, she began having nightmares and suffered from depression serious enough to require hospitalization. She ended up divorced from her husband and he got custody of the kids....

Abortion is not a benign procedure....physically or emotionally.

I'm not going to change any minds here though.

the closer it comes to being a back-alley procedure for those that seek it.

i don't know anybody who doesn't think that it's a tough decision- but once a woman has made it- her choice should be respected...not delayed unnecessarily.

requiring minors to get consent for a surgical procedure does not turn abortion into a back-alley procedure.

where do the minors who need an abortion without letting their parents find out end up going...?

be able to get an abortion without parental consent or becoming guardians of the state...

We're not going to change each other's minds on this one..so I don't see any point in discussing this anymore. I don't think that placing some restrictions on abortion will be the slippery slope to it becoming the back-alley procedure that it once was.

This society has steadily gone downhill...and if you think people don't use abortion as a back-up contraception...you're also wrong. Check out any college campus in america and interview some girls...you'll discover that's not true.

Abortion is not something that should be taken lightly. By the time an abortion is performed, there is usually a heartbeat and though the 'fetus' may only be 2 inches long or something..it's a human in it's earlies form of development. Abortion is the decision to end that life before it is born and it is sometimes the best choice...but..it's not one to celebrate with t-shirts. It's something that is serious enought that I don't think a 14 or 15 year old ....or even 16 year old child has the maturity to deal with.

Any child in danger from their parents should be taken into custody anyway...to help the child.

where does a minor girl go for an abortion if she doesn't want her parents know about it, if not the "back-alley" abortionist?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/09/22/state0306EDT0008.DTL

or Tamia Russel
http://www.lifenews.com/nat385.html

(I don't actually read lifenews...you can find that story on several other media sites..it's just the first one I pulled)

I can pull out as many anecdotal stories as you can.

then it's a good thing that they chose not to have an unwanted pregnancy.

Doesn't our society have enough unwanted people?

Babies grow into adults and need housing, education and other assistance.

The same state legislatures that proudly claim to be pro-life are also the first ones to cut back on nutritional assistance, section 8 and funding for educational development.

To me pro-life just means hypocrite.

How insulting! I agree with the posters who noted that by the time a woman actually goes to get the abortion, she's thought through every angle possible.

Now, with the younger women, I'm sure the primary aim is to manipulate their emotions and dump another big load of guilt on their backs.

When men decide to have a vasectomy, are they told to go get counseling? Do they have a time-out period? Or is it possible that men are allowed full autonomy over their bodies, eh?

That's none of your business.

Seeing that I was reiterating the above posters' remarks, and I was making a point about women retaining autonomy and authority over their own bodies, and yet you zero in on my remark while you fail to respond to the other posters who addressed the same issue, I will say that it's not necessary on a DISCUSSION FORUM BOARD to read other people's minds in order to state or agree with an opinion.

You have not indicated your gender on your profile, but far be it from me to read anything into that.

Do you or don't you believe that women should have as much control over their bodies as men do?

control, including the right to prostitution. However, as a man, I cannot speak for all men. I assume women don't all act the same either.

:thumbsup:

that, in the end, is what it comes down to. Well said Straight Shooter!

It isn't about anything else, truly. There is no medical procedure that men have to take a time out for, or drive all over the state for, or be turned away from a Wal-Mart or Target pharmacy for, or anything else!

Can't some liberal lawyer find a way to challenge this inequality in the courts somehow?

before they go on Viagra???:sarcasm:

What an outcry that would produce! :eyes:

aren't usually given the vasectomy on the same day as their consultation and they should be given time to think about it..

Oh..and here if you want to get your tubes tied you have to be counseled about what it means...and you also don't get the procedure done on the same day.

Maybe the point isn't to make young women feel guilty...it's to give them the opportunity to understand the finality of what they are doing and what all of their options are. The response (particularly of very young girls) is to want to make the problem go away immediately...when confronted with all of the options, some of them do choose adoption or to continue the pregnancy.

I had a friend in college who had a baby at 16....it was the hardest decision she ever made and she nearly had an abortion twice at the beginning of the pregnancy. She actually went on to get into Med School....because once the intial shock wore off, her parents rallied behind her and helped her with childcare etc while she was an ugrad.

you make the distinction yourself -- women you would make -- men would be given.

That's my point. It's their decision, and society doesn't get into an uproar over it. Men having the absolute right to get a vasectomy if they choose to do so has never been a subject of political controversy.

Happy day for the friend who had her baby at 16. Thank goodness her parents rallied behind her. I'm not concerned about people like that; I'm concerned about those whose parents will beat the crap out of them, literally or figuratively, or maybe who don't have the financial or emotional resources to support their daughter in that situation.

A woman has the right to decide for herself which fork in the road she will choose.

between a vasectomy and an abortion. At the end of the day, abortion still is the end of a human life at an early stage of development. I'm not saying that judgementally and I'm pro-choice...but it's not the same thing as a vasectomy.

Any obstacle to the potential of bringing life into this world goes against God's will, supposedly.

I'm not going to split hairs here. If someone wants to have an abortion, AFAIC, that's their right because it's their conscience they have to sleep with ... at the end of the day.

on the same day as their consultations.

Sid

Is about 10 years long enough time? My husband and I decided BEFORE we married that he would have a vasectomy after we had 2 kids, and ONLY 2 kids. We were both in our mid 30s at the time. My husband's niece and her husband decided before they married that they didn't want to EVER have kids, so he had a vasectomy several years before they married. She was 33 and he was 38. They had lived together for 10 years before they married. Old enough to know their own minds? Do you think any of us would have changed our minds in 24 hours??????

My aunt had an abortion in 1942 when it was illegal. She was 45 years old, married 20 years, a mother of one daughter, and a grandmother of one. She had started menopause - an "oops, change of life" pregnancy. Both she and my uncle didn't want to have a child younger than their grandson. Back then she had to go through a lot to find a doctor who would say she needed a therapeutic abortion (pg threatened her life) and pay a HUGE amount of money for the doctor's services. Do you really think any waiting periods, consent forms, or ultrasound images of fetuses, etc., would have changed either her, or her husband's, mind?

All these consent forms, waiting periods, etc., for abortions/birth control are nothing more than this current administration and the religious nuts trying to enforce a theocracy/nanny state upon us.

wants to have her tubes tied! I have a friend who could not find a dr. to do this, period. She was none to happy.

Even those that have already had children have difficulty getting tied in their twenties, the dr.s seem to think that these women can't possibly want to end the possibility of childbirth! But imagine a man being refused a vasectomy. I doubt it very seriously.

But that's her decision. Perhaps she cannot take birth control pills or doesn't want that false chemical in her system throughout her childbearing years. Perhaps (as in the case of someone I knew), she did not want to pass her schizophrenic genes along. Maybe the woman simply doesn't want to bring children into this very screwed-up world with its dwindling resources. For every woman, who makes that decision, she has her own compelling reasons.

It's her decision and the doctors have an ethical obligation to inquire politely, but if she declares that her decision is not negotiable, they also have an obligation to perform the procedure. That's just my opinion, FWIW.

it's insane that dr's can refuse to perform this elective surgery, but allow things like this to happen:

http://www.awfulplasticsurgery.com/archives/006603.html

http://www.banterist.com/archivefiles/000195.html

I tried to get my tubes tied after the birth of my (only) child. A very complicated delivery had made it almost impossible to carry another pregnancy to term -- and I didn't want another, in any case.

I was 22. Imagine my surprise when the SAME doc who told me I shouldn't have any more babies told me he wouldn't tie my tubes because I only had one child.

Another doc said (and I quote): "how would you feel if your child was hit by a car and killed? Wouldn't you be sorry you were sterile?"

Like kids are the same as interchangeable parts -- Whoops! Broke that one; better get a new one!

It took me six years to find a doctor who would tie my tubes.

I thought that was a thing of the past (my child is 25), but recently discovered it hasn't changed a bit. damn.

I could say many, many foul words about this . . .

we'll have to agree to disagree.

It's just that the legal reasoning here seems a bit off. I mean the court decision. I mean, if this did not place any material burden on the pregnant woman/teen then there would hardly be any point in passing this law in the first place. I don't think ignoring the obvious is a good way to interpret law.

your point of view..it does seem that the legal reasoning was a bit off.

This sort of ignoring the obvious in order to find a legal position is something I see way too much from these people swearing up and down that they uphold the original intent of the constitution. Upholding common sense is supposed to be a legal virtue too but, I see it less and less.

after an 18 hour waiting period -- maybe he'll change his mind.

<sarcasm ended>

This is simply an issue of control -- women still are not equal -- we are treated like children.

Sometimes I really really hate the religious right males who are forcing their world view on everyone. Yes there are women in the idiot religious right but they seem like robotic droids -- controlled by men. They merely repeat the male talking points -- against their own best interest.

women's (cough) rights?

:sarcasm:

Gotta love those. I went on one "christian family site" and they purported to show what a 6 week old embryo looked like. As the mother of 2 kids, I KNEW that imagine was wrong, so I went on a "neutral" site and the image they showed was really of a TWELVE week old fetus. THEY LIE. Will they do that to women in the early stages too? Make it look OLDER?

As one joke going around a while ago from the image of Hurricane Katrina said, "Is it an Embryo, or is it is SHRIMP???"

I can no longer lump only the Christians as Taliban. Today I saw a bumper sticker that if your pro choice you can't be Catholic. I will now consider all Religions as Taliban. Keep your Religion out of my life.

The decision by the Republicans on the Indiana Supreme Court will not stand federal scrutiny. This ain't over by a long shot!

If you could afford it. The poor had no good options. Looks like we will end up in that situation once again. Sometimes I am in shock, we are back to Viet Nam, Nixon and no abortions.

All over again on many fronts, but I think this time it is far worse. We had the "Jesus Freaks" back then, but they weren't sitting in the White House and controlling Congress and the legislation.

Well, I remember back then that women were flocking to New York for abortion, ESPECIALLY from New Jersey where it was still illegal. All they needed was the price of a PATH train token ($1.50? back then) to come to New York to get a safe, legal abortion. It infuriated the officials and religious from NJ.

Welcome Back to the Future.

That was the only option, unless you had a friend in healthcare who would give you a D and C.

Miracles don't come by waiting. Bad situations just get worse. One man should get pregnant.....old wive's (Jewish?) proverb

It's just more paternalistic crap to make life harder for women. So now you have the abortion you know you wanted AND you lose your job because you had to take two days off work. Thanks Indiana.

As are many of the arguments I've read here. Why are so many so obsessed with controlling a woman's body? We are not goddam baby incubators at the convenience of government or society. It's a choice to have a child.
I hate to burst some bubbles, but I've talked to many women who have had abortions, including one of my daughters, and the primary emotional response is.....RELIEF.

If the woman truly wants an abortion, she will wait those extra hours and still have the procedure. At least women still have a choice.

and the epiphany will be that we live in a batshit crazy theocracy that needs a bloody revolution? who can truly know?...
:evilgrin:

I send letters to our elected Bubbas who sponsor crap like this asking them to please respond with their thoughts on how they expect 21st-Century high-tech business to relocate to Indiana when they keep introducing this 12th-Century bullshit as laws....

No responses yet.

I have had an abortion and my tubes tied. I figured out I was pregnant within a couple of weeks, took the pee test to confirm, went to my GP, she sent me down the hall for an ultrasound (because I was having pain and she wanted to make sure it wasn't a fallopian pregnancy); set up an appointment with the stand-alone clinic for the next day, set up another appointment at the local hospital for me to get my tubes tied the next week. There was no muss or fuss. Plus, it didn't cost me anything out of pocket (I pay taxes to get universal health care). That was 7 years ago. Do I feel any remorse? No. I was not nor am I now a "maternal" person. I knew that having a child was not a good thing for me. Of course, this is anecdotal; it is only my story.

...abortion clinics. I grew up there (age 4 to 19) and I would have sworn to you that Indiana did NOT have any abortion clinics.

My Mom used to work at Planned Parenthood in my hometown in Indiana, and she said they only did counseling there. I bet you have to go to Fort Wayne or Indianapolis to get one, and those cities are 2 and 3 hours drive from were I lived.

There's a lot of us Hoosiers who have indoor plumbing, too.

And you're right, it's Indy or Fort Wayne. Or Chicago. Or maybe there's some providers who don't like it known that they provide. Snipers acoss the breakfast table and Randall Terry and all that....

Interesting that the "Beacon of Liberalism", Blooming-gulch, doesn't have one... I figure the Sorority house at IU would keep 'em busy...