Hillary Clinton Defends Pro-War Vote

I am so done with that bitch

She lost me a long, long time ago.

She's getting worse. Craven, craven, craven.

asking for money! I will send them back loaded with sand.

decides to send it back.

If this isn't the evidence that she should NOT be bandied about here as a 2008 hopeful, i don't know what the hell else would be.

I hope this article makes that point loud and clear to all of her campaign functionaries.

If she were to come out against the war now, would it be seen as anything more than political expediency? I won't be able to support her in a primary as long as she defends continuing military action in Iraq.

When you find yourself in a big hole, stop digging!

Maybe she doesn't perceive her pro-war persistence as a big hole. In that case, she's totally unsuited for public office.

Personally, I can't understand her. Or her husband's recent stands.

There weren't any. Mission accomplished. Let's leave now.

Mission unaccomplished.

bad video games. Now go sit down and be quiet.

on her part. What is it that we started? Does she know? What we started was the removal of SH from power. That's done. What else did we start? We destabilized the region by de-baathifying the Iraqi government. Do we want to finish that? We increased the power of the Shiite militias and Iran's influence in the area. Finish that? We created giant real world live jihadi training ground. Finish that? What is it that she wants to finish? She has apparently thought this through as much as Bush has.

politicians habitually skate the line of truth...they need to break the habit

:puke:

Yes, Kerry said he regretted his vote. His name should be in this quote too.


""Based on the information that we have today, Congress never would have been asked to give the president authority to use force against Iraq," she said. Clinton stopped short of saying her vote was a mistake, the political path chosen by two other potential Democratic candidates — former vice presidential candidate John Edwards and Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del. "

He said it in 1993 check out the truthout quote and link;

"The most revealing moment of the entire event came as it was breaking up. Kerry was slowly working towards the door when he was collared by Art Spiegelman. Though Kerry towered over him, Spiegelman appeared to grow with the intensity of his passion. ?Senator,? he said, ?the best thing you could do is to is to just come out and say that you were wrong to trust Bush. Say that you though he would keep his promises, but that you gave him more credit than he deserved. Say that you?re sorry, and then turn the debate towards what is best for the country in 2004.?

Kerry nodded, bowed his head, and said, "You're right. I was wrong to trust him. I'm sorry I did." And then he was gone.

In the end, that is perhaps the greatest obstacle for Kerry to overcome. Liberal base voters never trusted George W. Bush from the beginning, and believed in their hearts that he was approaching the Iraq situation with bad intentions. The fact that Kerry trusted him, and trusted him enough to ignore Senator Robert Byrd?s dire warnings of constitutional abrogation of Congressional responsibilities which was inherent in the resolution, makes it hard for those voters to trust Kerry."

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/121003A.shtml

peace.

to support Bush's war on Iraq should encourage their sons and daughters to enlist. Maybe if they had family on the line they might feel differently.

I am sure Chappaqua NY has sent very few to Iraq.

Hillary spending all her time defending her Iraq vote.

We all know how that race turns out, right?

Yet the majority of Americans want us the fuck out of Iraq.

Of course, they also want universal health care, and we know how well that goes over in congress.

What a pair of assholes!

Are we sensing a pattern here kids??

(hint: These folks have trouble finding the middle -they think it is waaaaayyy over there on the right)

(I have excluded Lieberman, for he is on a trash pile unto himself).

"I made a mistake."

and misled by people who should be in jail

There is a big difference.

They knew just like we did on DU that these were lies and they went along for political expediency.

Millions were against this war.

dozens of op-eds by Bush I proteges warned against.

They were stupid, wrong, weak kneed opportunists and now they are getting what they deserve....SHAME.

I cannot believe anyone defends their craven cowardice around here anymore?

And EVEN IF they bought into the bullshit at the time of the pro-war vote, the months of weapon inspections proved the case for war was bullshit. The ones who went along with it anyway are opportunistic cowards.

Jacobin, you summed it up perfectly.

I know who lied to get us into this mess, but complicity has its own pitfalls as some Dems are finding out.

Seriously - we here on DU, and others all over the world, were pointing out...get this...exactly what would happen should we follow this foolish Iraq policy. And what happened? It ended up exactly as we said, way back then. The writing was on the wall for any fool who could read. More to the point, these dire (and eventually vindicated) predictions took place before the first U.S. troop ever set foot in the war zone.

Those folks, including HRC, who voted for political reasons, do not deserve the positions they hold as long as they are minus a spine.

I was a moderate to centrist Dem before the Iraq vote. Since then, I lost a dear friend in a war that never needed to happen. Things have changed, completely, for me. In other words, try again, Hillary.

being elected (or getting re-elected which is the same thing, no?) it does not pay to take off on wild goose chases.

I agree, for my purposes, there was more than enough evidence to the contrary prior to the war. I am not so sure there was enough documented evidence a lawmaker could use.

They were blindsided by LIHOP and sandbagged by Patriot, attacked by the WHIG at every turn.

I don't blame all of them for their vote. That they are still feeling that way is shameful. Hell that they felt that way after, oh June 2004 is beyond belief.

But there they are. Right out there.

I COMPLETELY agree with you. I'm so tired of hearing these mewling excuses that "we were lied to." Bullshit. I knew. DU knew. Hundreds of OP Eds were written by people who knew; it was in the paper that the yellow cake was based on forged documents (I never understood at the time why no reporter ever brought that up since it was widely reported). It is IMPOSSIBLE that our dear members of Cogress didn't know. They were privy to information that WE didn't have, and WE KNEW. Political expedience--yes. Cowardice-- yes. Opportunists?--yes. It just disgusts me.

when she commented on the "heartbreak and tragedy of abortion." It was a perfect slap in the face to any pro-choice people, and a shoring up of the attitudes of the anti-choice people.

I hated giving up on the Clintons, backed them through all 8 years of his presidency, even when he acted like a yahoo and embarrassed us all, but I still believed.

Their behavior since then has made it utterly impossible for me to support either of them. Watching Bill Clinton hang out with Barbara Bush and not speak out against the Iraq occupation until others had made it politically wise to do so just closed the door for me.

over Dean. I was furious. Then, I thought, maybe she's posturing so the Thuggery doesn't have such a big window for their antics. We called her anyway.

Maybe Sen. Clinton's people are idiots. But, between them, the Clintons probably have enough IQ points for a perfect bowling score so that's no excuse. I hope they enjoy developing the library.

So I know damn well they knew.

but how come I - and thousands of other DUers - knew that the weapons inspectors were reporting back that no WMDs were being found, that they needed just a bit more time to finish their inspection, and that Fuckface decided to short-circuit all of it and attack Iraq?

How come all those politicians didn't know what we knew?

If they can't come out and say "We were misled and we fucked up. We are sorry, and we'll never let it happen again," then they have no business occupying the offices they now hold, and they should be voted out as quickly and expediently as possible.

Love means always having to say you're sorry. I love my country. Too bad these ratbastards love their jobs more.

duties as representatives of the people and did what was expedient and not what was right. If they made a mistake, thats terrible, but if they believed the lies, they should be spanked in public.
Flawed intelligence is a myth. What intelligence????? Tell us please, what intelligence fooled you into invading a country? You can only be misled if you believe the lier.

She is, sadly, a DINO like her brilliant husband. God what a shame. They are both so bright and hard working to betray democracy alongside the P-NACsters.

Hillary will probably be my last choice for the 08 nomination, but personally I feel that we really screwed up Iraq and should try to give them a fighting chance to be a real country. By this I mean, a short term full on effort to get them running their own country and defending themselves on their own. At some point, we are going to have to cut our losses, most of them want us out, we should get out very, very soon. But I really feel that this administration had NO PLAN to stabilize Iraq and has done very little to achieve it. I realize I am in the minority, but I don't advocate leaving right now, this very minute. I understand why many of you feel that way though.

The unfortunate thing is, I think this war is one of the most poorly planned, poorly exececuted, poorly researched US action ever. Please don't accuse me of being some freeper warmonger.

... is not so much that our illustrious leaders didn't have a plan, it is that the Iraqis and others are not willing or able to go along with it.

A point that Murtha made but not strenuously enough IMHO is that WE ARE NOT MAKING PROGRESS.

And there is no indication that we are able to learn from our experience and correct our efforts.

There is no way we can "fix" Iraq. Only Iraqis can do that. And at the rate we are successfully training the Iraqis to take over the security of their country, we will be there in 2030.

We should just leave. We are doing no good and are doing harm by killing civilians. If the Iraqis wanted us there, they would help us weed out the "insurgents" and clean house. They are not doing that, out of either fear or loyalty, and that is not going to change.

We need to leave.

I understand your points, and, can understand why you feel that way. But...there is a way to have it " both ways " meaning getting the hell out right away and assist in helping the Iraqi people REPAIR their government-- yes...they DID have a working government, even if the head of it was a bit nasty.

This miracle can be achieved by, first admitting that invading the country was a mistake, and ask the world for forgiveness, request that they assist in training an Iraqi police force and army, implore Muslim countries, through the UN, to, take over security operations in the country, and foot the bill for all of it.

Easy , huh ? :evilgrin:

Its a false PNAC mantra that's repeated so often that we tend to gravitate toward it and believe it.

It will never ever ever happen.

They will fight and die for their own government, not one we put together with faux elections....the candidates NAMES were not ever on the ballots

IMHO.
My own personal belief is that she's playing the centrist in the hopes that'll give her the best chance of getting elected, and once in the WH she'll have more political leeway to return to her old stripes. The only way a woman can get elected is if she's tough on crime, tough on foreign relations -- she's got to play it tougher than a man in order to have credibility, that's just the way it is.

on edit: almost forgot to welcome you to DU!
:toast:

We do not get to make it right, we get to get out as soon as possible, Once we recognize that fact, once we publicly state that what we did and what we are doing is wrong, then, and only then can we go to the international community and ask them for help as we remove ourselves from Iraq.

The burgler does not get to clean up the crime scene. The rapist does not get to decide when he should withdraw. The murderer does not have an obligation to clean up the bloody mess he has made. All of them have an obligation to make reparations for what they have done, but first and foremost that have to stop committing the crime.

to hand over Congress's constitutional right to declare war to a CHIMP--
Her Speech--i remember it -I listened live to KPFK-

Clinton said:" I TRUST YOU MISTER PRESIDENT--I TRUST YOU'LL DO THE RIGHT THING"--
WTF????


this following one of the best speeches ever given on the house floor by Byrd OPPOSING handiing over the power to declare War to one greedy little brat....
Byrd's speech include a classic moment--an insult directed toward the Baybee Boosh--->
he said: "haha ha--C'mander Rin Cheef-!!ha ha C'mander Rin Cheef! --literally laughing at Bush! for a full 15 or 20 seconds!!"--one of the greatest moments in the history of Congress!!

Now what kind of an idiot is Hillary Clinton?

anyone who didn't realize the criminal illegal nature of invading a country that posed no threat to us or to it's neighbors--is either an absolute idiot or a part of the GREED MACHINE---Byrd knew-Bernie Ward knew- most of us at DU knew--there's no excuse that our well informed leaders didn't know.

Send her to the Bridge game at the Country Club but not to the White house.

Exactly Warren! Love your handle!

is by our leaving it.

(I feel like the Blue Fairy in Pinocchio: would you like to be a REAL country?)

How anyone would even think of supporting her for any higher office is beyond me. Senator is bad enough. She would proabably give her left arm to be prez. Ain't gonna happen.

In other words, he who fights against the weak — and the rag-tag Iraqi militias are very weak indeed — and loses, loses. He who fights against the weak and wins also loses. To kill an opponent who is much weaker than yourself is unnecessary and therefore cruel; to let that opponent kill you is unnecessary and therefore foolish. As Vietnam and countless other cases prove, no armed force however rich, however powerful, however, advanced, and however well motivated is immune to this dilemma. The end result is always disintegration and defeat; if U.S. troops in Iraq have not yet started fragging their officers, the suicide rate among them is already exceptionally high. That is why the present adventure will almost certainly end as the previous one did. Namely, with the last US troops fleeing the country while hanging on to their helicopters’ skids.

Martin Van Crevald 2004

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

and it s usage here on DU and other blogs is generally meant, in a non gender specific way to refer to any individual who is clearly posturing and mouthing flase positions to ingratiate themselves with the corporate establishment. They have whored themselves out for money and power and that is not a gender slam in any respect.

by appealing to a demeaning caricature. Just my opinion.

A strong woman would have no qualms about admitting she made a mistake in voting for the war, and would not hesitate to take immediate action to correct her mistake.

Hillary is not a strong woman, she is weak in the knees!

Isn't it? Way behind.

I see her as a potential Margaret Thatcher and I ain't interested.

Talk to me Barbara Boxer.

when what we started was an ill-advised, unnecessary war.

For this reason, I pray she doesn't run for president, or we will have President George Allen in 2008.

if the pattern holds.

right out. :crazy:

:wtf: :grr:

Really... she's an idiot, IMO, and not even close to progressive.

She just thinks voters are.

It would be easier to forgive her if she were an idiot, because we could say that she bought the lies hook, line, and sinker. However, we all know her intellectual capacities, and that makes it all the more revolting to see her in action.

I was speaking in the figurative, rhetorical, derogative sense. :evilgrin:

I DO agree with you there! :)

Think about it! From John Kerry to John Edwards, from Wes Clark to Russ Feingold, all of them advocate a variant of withdrawing the troops from Iraq. None of them advocates what Hillary has now endorsed: "finish what it started" in Iraq.

Hillary is Al From's prowar candidate for 2008, and it us up to us to derail this ambitious woman quest for the Presidency.

clintons side when she mischaracterized murtha's resolution

there should be no ambiguity where she stands now

She is to the right of Biden, for heaven's sake!

and switch parties.

and switch parties.

Although I never particularly liked her, I at least admired her intelligence. While I don't doubt her intelligence, I must say that I could never bring myself to vote for her. At one point, I could have held my nose and pulled the lever, but she's just gone overboard trying to please the right wingers in the Dem Party, and frankly, I'm beginning to believe she's one of them as well. Should she get the Dem nomination (which I can't believe she will), I truly believe I would do the unthinkable and vote Green. I don't say that easily, because I'm dyed in the wool as they say, but I DO have a conscience, and I don't want Republican Lite in the WH.

I'll still take her over any Republican.

She is incapable of taking responsibility for her own actions, and she blames everyone and everything else for her own mistakes. This is why Hillary sounds just like Bush and Lieberman when it comes to the phony war on terror.

Hillary is a joke.
Handed over those declaration of war powers to baybee bush without even batting an eye.

Sender her to the bridge game at the country club--keep her out of the White house

her politically (her oratory and screechy monotone grate on my nerves) but I admit that I am VERY concerned about post-war Iraq. We need to come up with a viable solution to this quagmire - hopefully a solution that won't create an implosion of the whole middle east. Randi Rhodes is right, Bush and Bin Laden are reading from the same playbook.

plays to stupid swing voters...

This is pandering at the extreme - most people probably supported the war when it was going 'well' - Saddam was captured - Yeah, the world is safer! Iraq collapses into absolute chaos - Ummmm, well we can't make people feel guilty about being wrong in the first place can we?

:nuke:

Do you hear me DLC? Do you hear me voters of Iowa and New Hampshire? If we nominate Hillary, WE WILL LOSE.

if she can't even say she made a mistake and own up to it, how can she be trusted to run country.That is not the mark of a leader as we have been seeing with *. Another point here I would like to make is if a majority of us here at DU knew that Saddam had no WMDs because we listened to what those in the real know had to say, like oh...the weapons inspectors, Scott Ritter, and so on, why then didn't Hillary have the common sense to investigate these things for herself. Instead she listened to a group of con men. So in my estimation, she has very poor judgment and can't be trusted with the lives of the American citizens.

Also please keep in mind Hillary started out a republican in her youth and I'm afraid she is reverting back to one.

I will support the candidate that runs on the Democratic ticket, but I truly hope it is not her.

Which is, of course, Hillary. First. Last. Always.

I'm sorry, I cannot vote for that woman ever.

I may be wrong, and time will tell. If she becomes the running candidate for the Dems, she will most likely have most of the Dem votes over any Republican that runs. Her challenge is the moderate, disheartened, whatever you want to call them repubs. Iraq will very well be a primary part of this campaign, and if she doesn't appear moderate, flexible, wishy-washy whatever you want to call THAT, then she won't even get their consideration. Most americans want out of Iraq, and many believe we need to do it smartly, not cut and run, whatever you want to call THAT. Her stance will offer a viewpoint that reaches more people, hence more votes and if she's in this race, she's in it to win it.

This viewpoint of mine, has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with her. I think you have to be in the White House in order to REALLY fix the problems in this country, and having ANY Dem/ Repub. lite in there will always be better than to have another term or worse 2 more terms with a republican White House.

Do I think she will win? Actually, no way. For the first part, because she is a Clinton. Boxer would have a better shot, IMO. For the second part, I don't believe this country would vote for qualifications above gender; we won't get a woman president in the White House yet... we aren't ready. Now if she ironically ran against Condi (who claims she doesn't want to be president), then there would be a cat fight to put in the history books. The country wouldn't have a choice of being ready or not for a woman as president, obviously, and then Hillary might have a chance to win, because Americans want a change. Therefore, would I do what Hillary is doing? Maybe. Placate whomever and GET THE REPUBS OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE. Is it traitorous to the Dem party if in the long run, they get in the White House and make better decisions? I doubt it.

What this country needs is a person of integrity, who is in love with our country, and it's people and what is just. Who the hell fits THAT criteria??? Very few. Conyers is one man whom I say fits. Edwards is another. Clark is another. Kerry is another. RFK Jr. is another. Gore is another.

For the love of God, I'll work my fingers to the bone to get the closest fit, up and running.

One honest question here for those who'd vote green over Hillary, or Kerry, for whatever their reasoning is. Why would you weaken a Democratic victory and strengthen a Republican victory when this country is falling down a black hole? Isn't the bigger picture sometimes more important than each individual point trying to be made? A very close person in my life voted for Nader in 2004. I love him because of it and want to bang my head against the wall at the same time (along with his head too). The vote may as well have been casted for John Lennon. I think anyone who voted for Nader is fighting the right fight, in the wrong way. I am strongly in favor of a third party and I try at all grass root levels to help build one. The "Lennon voter's.. aka "dreamers", are idealistic and IMO some of the most compassionate people in this country, but the third party is too weak to take on the other two prominent parties at this point. That is where reality at the ballot box take it's toll. It "seems" like you are voting against your "dreams" if you pull a D or R lever. IMO, you only are if you aren't fighting to build the green party AGGRESSIVELY, from the ground up.

Okay, enough of my ranting... I've spent all week mostly with children apparently I needed to "spill" to a bunch of adults.... (for those who have experienced the "I need to speak "adult speak" or I will crack soon", you know what I mean.)

Back to Sesame Street......

I was part of a small group that picketed her office in NY before the vote and send several letters to the NY delegation not to authorise war.

I dont even know what people see in her as a candidate. If they nominate her I would not vote for her. Typical politician!!!

I just can't. And I won't.

for a jellyfish.

Keep talking out of both sides of your mouth, Hill. You'll never, ever get my vote.

President.

Take that to mean whatever you want. I don't give a fuck if my vote has to go to Nader or Kucinich, but I will NOT vote for Hillary.

Disappointed with you, Madame.

good bye, hillary. it's been far too surreal. oh, and please don't attempt to darken the doorway to any office representing me. for if you do, i'll do my best to make sure you never make it past the threshhold. and now, not another word from you, for you are now dead to me. goodbye.

...to do the right thing.

she should've come right out and warned him to not pull his fratboy b.s. on a world scale.

What a disappointment she has turned out to be. What a shame, what a waste. Who the heck advises her on this stuff?

Heathen!!!

response...

(it's a dlc blog)

http://www.bullmooseblog.com/

The Democracy Truce

The Moose offers a modest proposal for the Coalition of the Adults.

In the next three weeks, Iraqis will go to the polls to elect a government - a flawed government - but it will be a very rare exercise in democracy in that part of the world. It is a moment to be celebrated whatever your position on the war.

And it is also a moment when our leaders should be united in showing their support for the brave Iraqis who will risk their lives for an action that we take for granted - and for the American troops who will defend them. These democrats and our soldiers will be confronted by an assortment of Jihadist and Baathist terrorists who will seek to kill voters and disrupt the election.

(snip)