Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Venezuelan opposition quit poll

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
Eugene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 05:02 AM
Original message
Venezuelan opposition quit poll
Last Updated: Tuesday, 29 November 2005, 18:21 GMT

Venezuelan opposition quit poll

Three Venezuela opposition parties have pulled out of Sunday's
congressional poll, accusing the electoral body of favouring
pro-government candidates.

The head of the main opposition party, Democratic Action, said they
felt the result would be biased against them.
<snip>
Venezuelans will vote for an expanded 167-seat congress, where
supporters of President Hugo Chavez have a majority.

Correspondents say that the government has vowed to increase its
majority to two-thirds, which would allow it to pass constitutional
reforms that opposition leaders strongly oppose.
<snip>

Full article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4482636.stm

Related: Venezuela's Chavez Vows Clean Elections
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
ugarte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Picking up their marbles and going home
Obviously they're afraid the world will see just how popular Chavez is and want to deny him the stage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. Of course the result will be biased against you
When the majority can't stand you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
foflappy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. How would you feel
if the republicans changed the constitution to keep them in power forever?

this is a protest and everyone should pay attention.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. A "protest" that is more than likely backed by the U. S. NeoCon Junta....
The NeoCon Junta has been very busy over the last few years trying to destabilize Venezuela and drive Chavez from office. It's all about the oil, for the exact same reason the NeoCons chose to illegally invade and occupy Iraq.

By the way, if you read the fine print, the Patriot Act negated much of the American Constitution, as well as the Bill of Rights. The vast majority of Americans have no clue about that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
foflappy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. I was not aware that the US Constitution was negated
could you send me a link or a google string?

Yes the US did invade Iraq and it is IMO an illegal act but I do not see how it relates to a proprosed change to the electoral body of Venezuala that would in effect stack PRO chavez members in order to bring about a single party system. At least we have a chance in the US to have change every so often.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Do your own research. I pointed you in the right direction....
...the rest is up to you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
95. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
foflappy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #95
102. I am unaware of the negation of the US constitution
and you can only throw insults at me. I guess we have degenerated into an anarchic hell then haven't we? I have search high and low and have found nothing that says the US constitution has been negated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #102
120. Here you go:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #120
128. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #128
133. Did you check all 1 million links?
...and perhaps you should go reread the handful I posted.

You will need to do a little better than just insist that you are right.
The community at DU demands that you support your position, though we don't accept Limbaugh or Fox News as credible sources.

Otherwise, you will be seen a just another spammer of propaganda.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #133
142. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. First off, the Constitution was decided upon by a referendum...
Chavez wasn't the only one that created the current constitution, it was a committee that did so. Second, this constitution makes no mention of any single party ruling, have you seen how the minority doesn't even regard the majority as human? Listen to their words, and it is plain to see why they will never get elected till they at least change that tune.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. What are you talking about? Nothing of the sort took place.
Where do you get these ideas in your head? U.S. Propoganda?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
69. We should pay attention,
Edited on Wed Nov-30-05 04:28 PM by K-W
the protests of the powerful are a good indication that things are being made better for the less powerful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
150. No, this is an attempt to make legitimate elections look illegitimate. -nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
foflappy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. Maybe the world will take a closer look....
at how these "democratic" elections are carried out.(but I doubt it)

Does anyone think it is a good idea for a government (who has kept lists of dissidents) to be able to see who was casting a vote and for who there are voting for?

Forget about the election issues in the US as we worry about the counting of electronic votes those in venezuela who oppose Chavez must fear reprisals if they vote opposition.

If the republicans tried to push the balance of power in a constitutional manner thereby permenantly creating a defatco single party government there would be a civil war.

I really wish that people would see beyond Chavez's charm and the rhetoric and see where he is taking his country....

Oh well he hates Bush, and he loves the poor (at least when he pays them and busses them to vote for him), and he is buddies with Castro, and he give cheap heat to poor Americans (at the expense of all the :poor: people" in Venezuela) so we must love him!! (F*** Chavez)

I just do not understand how people who hate Bush so much (as I do) and love a dictator in the making????????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I agree with you
if his heavy handed court stacking methods, free speech restrictions, and confiscating private property with storm troopers was done here in the US all the Chavezphiles would be screaming fascism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Pleace cite his court stacking methods and free speech restrictions.
Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. He wants to expand the amount of Judges on the Supreme Court...
Similar to what FDR tried to do. Whether it will have long term negative consequences remains to be seen. His "restrictions" on free speech include establishing an FCC type of organization to regulate the airwaves, just like we do, OMG!!! Also, just one last thing, they actually passed laws regarding both Libel and Slander, holy shit the world is going to end!!!!

Please note the sarcasm in much of what I said.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Thanks, Solon...
I figured it was somewhere along those lines.

The more things change...

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. oh, really. what about the "insult" law??
Under Articles 148 and 149 of the Venezuelan Criminal Code, people can be imprisoned for insulting "by speech or in writing" the president, the vice-president, the president of the legislature, the chief justice, and numerous other government officials, or by showing them "lack of respect in any other way." Article 150 prohibits anyone from insulting the legislature, the judiciary or the cabinet.


Imprisoned for "insulting" the president. That is scary.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/07/18/venezu6239.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. also worth highlighting
Several Latin American countries, including Argentina, Paraguay, Costa Rica and Peru, have followed the Commission's recommendations and removed insult provisions from their statute books. The Venezuelan Supreme Court, however, took pains to point out that it did not have to follow the Commission's recommendations.

"It bodes ill for Venezuelan democracy that the court views criticism and a vibrant public debate as a possible threat to public order. Freedom of expression is a vital guarantor of a functioning democracy, "said Vivanco.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. I oppose that law but mostly on the puishment side
Prison terms is too much, fines are more than enough.

That said it is laxly enforeced if any, insults are quite common and go unpunished. The only challenge was made for a 'slander' op-ed. But the courts threw the law suit out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. there is no reason for the law period...
slander and libel are one thing "insulting" or disrespecting the president is another all together. the thing is that Venezuela like other countries had the law on their books previously but it was STRENGTHENED under Chavez rather than repealed like in those other countries.

Bush is an ignorant jackass. I would not want to be fined or imprisoned for writing that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Why?
Why are they really all that different? If I write that X is gay it is slander but if X is a jackass is it that different? I think it has to do with the familiriarity that you have with tradition.

I am not opposed to fines, but jail time is too much.

As for the likelyhood of punishment it is small, He is still insulted plenty and no action has been taken.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
smb Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #37
61. WTF??
I am not opposed to fines

Well, then, I suppose it would be OK with you if we imposed fines for "insulting the President" in this country. At $50 a pop for "Chimpy", "Dumbya", "Shrub", etc, we could make a dent in the deficit on DU alone. :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Go ahead and and set one up for slander too
Bush is a criminal and he told me so, Lets hope he does not sue me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Centered Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #61
80. LOL
Wonder if they would really give Dems the credit for eliminating the deficit if that would happen LOL :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
foflappy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. They have been posted before
and everytime the Chavez apologists dismiss them even though they come from sources such as Amnesty Internationl and Human Rights Watch

Read for your self and see if what is happening in Venezuela is what YOU want to support (think about it in terms of happening in the US or other democratic countries)

Just look at all the facts and opinions from all sides to com eto your own conclusions! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. To be honest I wouldn't mind having more judges on the SCOTUS
Maybe that would improve our chances of having an honest SC.

As for the FCC, I think it's necessary.

Since you gave no links, I'll have to check out what HRW and AI say about these reforms.

As for the land grab, I'm all for it. The rich have been stealing from the poor for centuries. They're overdue for payback, really. I'm glad to see another FDR type (a traitor to his class).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Actually that's incorrect...
as far as I'm aware of, Chavez wasn't born into a rich family, he's FDR-like in policy, not in personal life.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. The problem is that both those sites talk about...
what could happen because of these laws and such, but can't really come up with evidence to back that up. The laws regarding the media are surprisingly mild, I mean, shit, he actually wants to regulate the PUBLIC airwaves, who ever thought of that? The court stacking is somewhat disturbing, but again, rather mild, I mean, seriously, one of his heros is FDR, he seems to be trying to play by that playbook.

Look, think of any other leader, here in the US, the UK, France, Germany, where ever, that has a democratic government. Now imagine a strident political minority in those countries that conspired to illegally overthrow the ELECTED president of said nation, and at the same time, they are aided and abetted by the Media and Business leaders. They fail, now the question is, what would a reasonable leader do? Should he just let it go, or should he pursue them on charges from conspiracy to treason? The opposition in Venezuela should thank their lucky stars that they can even be allowed to protest or even vote. I'm actually surprised that the media has hardly been touched, none of the owners or reporters are in jail, but they SHOULD be, they did something that was illegal and unethical.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Here's a good reference to the court reform:
This reform of the Supreme Court has prompted a lot of controversy both inside and outside of Venezuela. Venezuela's capitalist-backed opposition, as well as US officials and anti-Chavez commentators in the US media, have accused Chavez of violating “judicial independence” and of “packing the courts” with his supporters.

Not only is the claim fundamentally untrue — it is not the president but the National Assembly deputies who appoint the Supreme Court — but the hypocrisy of those making the claim is staggering. There was no serious judicial independence in the courts before Chavez's rise to power and the Bush administration is renowned for wanting to pack the US Supreme Court with judges who share its neo-conservative ideology.

What the Venezuelan opposition is really afraid of is that the capitalist elite is losing control over the courts, and therefore their immunity from prosecution for the crimes they have committed to date in their campaign against Chavez.
(snip/...)
http://www.soaw.org/new/newswire_detail.php?id=797
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. here is a better link that does not attempt to sugar coat
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/12/14/venezu9864.htm

Bush is filling vacancies just like every president has done. Chavez created new seats to ensure his agenda is not impeded.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. That is valid
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
96. Ahh - back to the root of your cause - defending bunkerboy & all the other
repukes just like always.

We've got your number buddy.

We ain't buyin' what your sellin'.

Not even a good try.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
foflappy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #96
105. Please explain the logic that says
not liking Chavez=liking Bush???????? I don't get it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Okay now I'm bordering on not even bothering checking
the AI and HRW sites.

If that's true, I don't see the need, really.

Thanks, Judi Lynn.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. right, just cherry pick the news you want to hear
hear no evil. a very effective strategy for the enlightened indeed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Why read news that's based on lies? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. you mean you don't believe that Venezuela has insult laws?? n/t
eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. First I've heard of them.
Please, tell me more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I posted a link, other latin countries have had them in the past
some countries have repealed them. Inexplicably, Venezuela has increased the penalties.

however, in order to find out more about them you are going to have to force yourself to open some links you may not be otherwised inclined to do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Where did you post the link?
I'm not reading the entire thread... doing other things besides posting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. timely link
here you go. Guatemala just ruled that the insult laws were unconstitutional. Hooray for Guatemala!!

http://www.ifex.org/fr/content/view/full/67505/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Interesting...
I wonder how many journalists in Venezuela, those known for being very critical of Chavez, have been imprisoned.

Do you have any idea?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. None
Edited on Wed Nov-30-05 03:06 PM by Flanker
There have been imprisoned journalists, Patricia Poleo for one, but that has to do with the Danilo Anderson assassination.

It is really not that shocking, there are slander/libel laws in the books in the states but their execution is rare and a ruling in favor rarer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Fascinating.
I wonder why AI and HRW would waste their time with laws which weren't being misused.

Stranger still is why progressives here would bother complaining about such things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. yeah, its odd that the Venezuelan government would waste their
time strengthening a law that they have no intention of implementing too isn't it??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Or perhaps they plan to use it to fry the big fish
Instead of people posting on message boards, the media there is not cuddly, they are political actors that at one time pushed for chaos and violence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. so did a certain president of Venezuela we know
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. So did our founding fathers.
Context is everything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. Yep, here's the timeline showing the terrifying, monsterous criminality
of the Venezuelan President. The President was Carlos Andres Perez.
1973 - Venezuela benefits from oil boom and its currency peaks against the US dollar; oil and steel industries nationalised.

1983-84 - Fall in world oil prices generates unrest and cuts in welfare spending; Dr Jaime Lusinchi (AD) elected president and signs pact involving government, trade unions and business.

1989 - Carlos Andres Perez (AD) elected president against the background of economic depression, which necessitates an austerity programme and an IMF loan. Social and political upheaval includes riots, in which between 300 and 2,000 people are killed, martial law and a general strike.

(Note: the difference in the totals represents the gulf between the official government count of the people Perez massacred, and the total estimated by the people who were on the scene. JL)

1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez is jailed for two years before being pardoned

1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.

1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.

1998 - Hugo Chavez elected president.
(snip/...)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1229348.stm

It's astonishing what opportunists on message boards will try to push over on others, when people don't actually have the time to spend hours looking for links, isn't it?

Here are photos of the violent moments after the El Caracazo massacre when the President against whom Chavez led a coup had his military fire upon crowds of unarmed protesting poor people:

http://abn.info.ve/galeria/show.php?carpeta=El%20Caracazo.%20Fotos%20Frasso.%201989

Very, very sad, and horrid. Click on the thumbnails for larger photos.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. God bless you, Judi Lynn.
and thank you.

:yourock:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. Please cite the strengthening.
Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Perhaps because they are absolutists
There are human rights violations in Venezuela, and pretty much the rest of the world and it is the job of HRW to catalog them and bring attention to them, that said they do not weigh their declarations, and most importantly the costs of inaction. There is plenty of propaganda and falsehoods in the press, they really are very dirty in the way they operate, and they were one of the mayor actors in pushing for the 2002 coup and the ensuing bloodshed. Is hate speech restrictions that bad of a violation? according to HRW it should.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #52
62. Thanks
I appreciate your thoughtful posts on this thread. :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #52
130. This IS beyond dispute:
1) Chavez has made Medical Care available to millions who were previously denied.

2) Chavez has made education available to millions who were previously denied

3) Chavez has made unused land available for cultivation by the poor who were previously denied.

4) Chavez has diverted a percentage of profits from the mining of Venezuela's natural resources to programs that feed the poor.

Summary:
Feed the Hungry....check
Heal the Sick....check
Shelter the homeless....check
Educate the illiterate....check
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
126. I agree 100%.
I would change:
"strident political minority"

to

a strident political minority well funded by sources outside Venezuela...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
digno dave Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
49. i love it when people come on here and defend Chavez
I have relatives in Venezuela and my parents go there often.
The guy likes to see himself on TV, cause he is prone to giving 4-5 hours speeches that are broadcast on state TV for the whole country to see. Trying to create that cult of personality that so many people on this site have apparently fallen for.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. I've never seen one speech.
Your anecdotal complaint about his speeches aside, I judge the man based on his policies, and the reaction from the people governed by him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. you are fortunate then
He requires television stations to show his speeches.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. It might be worse to base opinions on speeches
I have heard him speak, and it is populism in essence, but I look at action rather than words.

Bush comes off as mildmannered and warm in speeches.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #64
85. Plus stupid...
I cannot believe how badly Bush butchers the English language.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Are our stations not required
to show Bush's?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. I don't think so
That said 'cadenas' are as old as dirt, there is critiscism (by the media owners in particular ;)) that they are overuse, but that is just annoyance rather than anything substantial.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #68
77. Eh, no matter, they all show them anyway.
Which is annoying, since I don't care to watch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #49
161. I do too
I fell for it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
99. And as for the property issues, he is only returning property that was
illegally taken in the first place and returning it to the native americans.

Plus it is only a small percent of property and property that hasn't been used in decades.

I think it is a good policy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. Exactly.
The land wasn't even being used. It makes me despise the super-rich and their defenders that much more that they'd complain about such redistribution. That is the very definition of greed and shows indefensible callousness toward others in need.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
201. Ooops. Your friend is no longer with us.
Sniff sniff.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Please cite which proposed reforms would form a single party.
Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Look closer
Edited on Wed Nov-30-05 01:49 PM by Flanker
The world is taking a closer look, experts from the EU to the OAS are observing the electons and have a carte blanche.

This is all politicking, there was a legitimate gripe with fingerprinti machines and the likelyhood of extrapolating the individuals name and who they voted for. That said the fingerprint machines were done away with by the CNE and half the opposition decided to quit(the ones that are going to lose COPEI Zulia is still in it because they can win).


"If the republicans tried to push the balance of power in a constitutional manner thereby permenantly creating a defatco single party government there would be a civil war."

2/3 majority could change the constitution but there is no evidence that they wish to do so, there is also the need for a referndum.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. I don't think you have a clue about what you're posting. Questions for...
Edited on Wed Nov-30-05 01:55 PM by Media_Lies_Daily
...you:

1. Are you aware of the fact that Venezuela is a member of OPEC?

2. Are you aware of the fact that the NeoCon Junta is trying to destabilize the governments of every OPEC nation they do not yet control or occupy?

3. Are you aware of the fact that the NeoCon Junta has been attempting to overthrow Chavez for the last several years, primarily because he won't knuckle under to the NeoCon Junta?

4. Are you aware of the fact that Chavez is a very popular leader in Venezuela?

Maybe you should spend more time being worried about what's happening in the U. S. instead of believing the NeoCon-generated stories in the U. S. media about Chavez.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
47. Haven't you noticed that we are on the brink of a civil war, here ?
the hate speech is ratchteded up with every passing day, Ann Coulter, Fox News, O'Reilly et al..

then you have the likes of Pat Robertson calling on the assassanation of Hugo Chavez, with a wink and a nod from certain Senators and Representatives saber rattling and invoking the "evils" of "communinist regimes" spreading in S.A. direct lies and references of "dictatorship" ...

The demise of Chavez is vitally important to the land and oil barrons, multinational Corporations who want to privatize their basic resources, including but not limited to clean water, which is of course the ultimate goal of the Amerikan Empire.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
67. You said you hate Bush foflappy, got any examples of where
you expressed this hatred???


You said: "I just do not understand how people who hate Bush so much (as I do) and love a dictator in the making???????? "
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #67
84. Still waiting flappy
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #84
109. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #109
131. Just anything here at DU or a copy of one of your LTTE's
would be great.
Thanks
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
19. Good news/bad news: Chavez is learning from the RNC playbook - that's
the bad news.

Chavez is using these sly tricksy (RNC) methods to benefit the PEOPLE over the CORPORATIONS, in the long run, and to protect the majority of the people.

:woohoo: THAT'S the GOOD news!!! :applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
75. I'd much rather the Dems start learning a thing or two from the Repubs n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. This is tricky for me
I'm generally to the left of everyone I know, politically. Until recently, I was a Chavez supporter. But a parishioner's sister visited this summer from Venezuela. She had worked for the opposition because of human rights concerns about Chavez. She was fired from her job, and can't find work, says people are afraid to hire her due to her politics. She has sent her son to live here because of concerns for his safety there. She is quite sincere in her worries, and talks about the ways in which Venezuela seems less democratic by the day. She and her sister are both progessive on social issues--hardly the sort to support a "NeoCon Junta".

I think the problems in Venezuela are quite real. I do think the US gov't has pushed Chavez in some of the directions he's headed, by opposing everything he does simply because he calls himself a "socialist", but I no longer see him as a benign good guy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Not everything is black and white
Not all oposition members are rich/neocon/right-wing. There are plenty of lefties and even poor that oppose Chavez, Teodoro Petkoff among them tries to differentiate the left calling himself the good leftist.

That said not all they say may be well founded, security is an issue but is entirely petty crime, political persecution is not a reality much less targetting family members. Job security is another issue and it is more complex, there is a certain level of discrimination on both sides, that said it is mostly grassroots. Official policy has repeatedly called for their side to stop that practice, OF course it took months to acknowledge the problem and make those declarations. Perhaps if she tried again today it might be more favorable.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Teodoro Petkoff has been an editor & director of a wildly anti-Chavez
opposition "newspaper" in Venezuela, Tal Qual which published this phoney photograph on its front page:



The legitimate photograph was taken during a speech.

The episode that generated the cover of the newspaper "Tal Cual" represents an absence of journalistic values and an insurmountable example of yellow journalism of bad taste where the ignorance and lack of intelligent criticism reigns, and it is mainly an offense to the journalistic ethics. It is, without doubt, a repudiable act.
(snip/)
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1025

This is a busy day for me, so I may not have time soon to do much rummaging around for more info. I do recall that Petkoff's name has some very unpleasant, unethical associations. He's a rabid Chavez-hater.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Actually
Petkoff is one of the more reasonable member of the opposition, but that is not saying much. He was a former guerrilla fighter in the 60's and is now a reformed leftist-light that opposes the government 90% of the time and the opposition 10% of the time, regarding this issue he is actually flabbergasted that the opposition did something that stupid.

He is likely to run for president next year, but his history in the previous administration as finance minister was a disaster.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #42
70. So with a fraudulent act of that magnitude, you say he's "reasonable"?
And yet the post you respond to with your bizarre characterization of this man Petkoff as "reasonable" is based on his being directly connected to the worst, most fraudulent inflammatory kind of propaganda smear. That's fuckin' wierd.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Because Petkoff could be worse
That is how polarized things are, for example:

In April 2002

-He supported the strike/demostrations
-After the coup he kept quiet (hypocracy)
-After the dissolvement of all goverment branches he spoke out against Carmona.

One could argue oportunism since the writing was on the wall and that goverment was collapsing, but it is telling that he was one of the very few that did. The rest were willing to go down with that ship ideologically.

All things are relative.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #73
182. Yeah, he could be "worse". He could be a leftist.
Apparently the most heinous crime in the world for you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #182
199. Actually the guy (Petkoff) claims to be just that. I think you misread
the poster.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. that is good that you are discovering underlying issues
and not just rah rah!! Chavez. I think some people really don't want to look deeper
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. I think most people consider the sources of the anti-Chavez rhetoric....
...to be heavily influenced/funded by the heavily rightwing U. S. NeoCon Junta. IMHO, those people are correct.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
55. Rhetorical question...
What do you call someone who speaks out against the current administration, points out problems (or potential problems) with administration policies, and opposes all threats (real or potential) to the freedom of all people?

In America, Repukes seem to call them traitors, who aid and comfort the enemy, while DUers call them heroes and patriots.

In Venezuela, Repukes call them patriots, and some here seem to think that they're just tools of the right wing US NeoCon Junta who aid and comfort the enemy of Venezuela (the * Administration).

Look, I'm not saying Chavez is a bad guy, but if the story was " * is going to add more seats to the Senate", (just enough to override any filibuster, and with Diebold's help they'll be mostly/all repukes) I think we would be universally up in arms about that, and rightfully so. We wouldn't need outside influences to see the potentially dangerous consolidation of power that would result.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #55
79. Actually, I would slam any domestic group that critisized Bush...
if they accepted money from, let's say, North Korea, for the sole purpose of destabilizing our government. That is just wrong, and at the very least treasonous, regardless as to how terrible our president is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. As would I...
but I wouldn't consider anyone who dissents (especially in this case where it they appear to have some legitimate concerns) necessarily paid for or influenced by the heavily rightwing U. S. NeoCon Junta, and automatically dismiss their concerns. While I don't really agree with what how their going about it, I think they have a legitimate gripe here. IMHO, if Chavez's policies are as popular as many people seem to think, then he should be able to win 2/3 of the existing seats in a fair election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. The election is fair
At least to most standards. This is just politics, those that have chance at a seat are still in it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #82
87. I'm not implying the elections aren't fair
sorry if it seemed that I was.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. They accepted NED money during the recall election...
The NED is based in Washington DC and is considered, rightly, as a front organization for our intelligence agencies. In fact, there are criminal investigations going on right now in Venezuela precisely about the opposition accepting foriegn money to influence domestic elections. This is illegal, obviously.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #83
89. Yes, clearly this is illegal
Does that mean that there should be no concern that the Chavez government, rather than gaining more popular support to get 2/3's of the existing seats, is seeking to add seats to better his chances? Definitely put those who violated the law in jail. I'm sure if he exposed opposition politicians as US puppets, it would only help him to gain the existing seats that he needs. I guess I'm missing the part where this isn't a big deal, because if this were done in America, everyone here would be pissed. If, as has been alleged by the RW (and I don't believe it for a second), China was donating money to the DNC or DNC candidates, would * be justified in adding Senators to give him a filibuster-proof majority? Absolutely not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Actually not senators...
Edited on Wed Nov-30-05 09:36 PM by Solon
OK, a few things, first, Chavez's supporters ALREADY have a pretty much super majority in the Unicameral Legislator. Second, this apparently, isn't a Constitutional change, that was already voted on in a referendum, also, this is something that is to be voted on by the Venezuelans themselves, not as a sole Presidential decree. To be honest, this move shouldn't be percieved as a threat, look at our own House of Representatives, we could greatly benefit to releasing it from the arbritary number of reps that was voted on back in 1911. Hell the population here has tripled since then, yet we still have the same 435 members as we did back then.

That move by our House of Representative has led to less representation in government, not more, so if the Venezuelans themselves actually vote for more representatives to be put in the legislature, then that is a positive sign, not a negative one. I don't really trust anything the opposition says, they have a tendency to mountains out of molehills. Even a worst case scenario, slippery slope, situation could actually mean that the opposition parties could actually increase their representation in the legislature, if they were actually serious at participating in the democratic process, of course.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. Thanks...
it makes more sense now, you've enlightened me. BTW, I used the senators comparison rather than the representative comparison to compare the filibuster to the Venezuelan legislature's supermajority because that seems to be the last line of defense in the US for a minority party. Whereas their Legislature is unicameral so preventing the supermajority is their minorities last real defense
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #90
94. I think there is a misconception here
Chavez has a slim majority in the Unicameral congress, he used to have a super majority but a lot in his coalition switched sides. Today the elections are for that and only 2 seats were added to total 167. He is guaranteed to get a super majority with only around 48 oposition candidates still running.

The charge of court packing is legitimate and ilegal, for it to be legal he needed 2/3 the question is if it was carried out or not, he certainly knew that he would get a super majority so why risk it? I am still witing to see what ends up happening.

This whole story is a political move, a badly miscalculated political move since there was no unison.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #94
124. Actually your right...
But I don't see how, if the opposition actually got their act together, that this will hurt them, either in the long or short run. If they were serious about participating in the current democratic institutions, which they apparently are not, then they would field as many candidates as possible, and try to win seats. In this case, this is precisely what they should do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #83
104. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. OK, that's pure idiocy...
Its one thing for someone here to ask for aid and for Venezuela to give it, and quite another for let's say Moveon.org to have part of its funding done by a foriegn nation for the SOLE purpose of influencing our elections. They are NOT the same, if you think they are, you are beyond stupid.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. There is a major difference
One is PR and the other is campaign contributions, the latter is heavily restricted morally and legally the former is marketing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #111
114. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #114
165. Aid money
As long as it goes to the needy I don't care were it comes from, the strings attached are minimal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #108
113. it does no harm...
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 01:55 PM by Solon
regardless of the motives of those who actually do it, but at the same time it helps those who need said help, so what is the problem. Plus if you don't want to be called names, why not actually use your brain for something other than keeping your skull from collapsing.

ON EDIT: To put this another way, many churches run soup kitchens and homeless shelters, and many think the motives are pure, when many times it is not. Churches measure sucess by the amount of pews filled and how full the donation baskets get, they are blatently self promoting, but at the same time, help the poor in many cases. Except for those that are totally unethical in these situations(convert or freeze types), are we to critisize them for such self promotion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #113
117. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #119
122. Please explain how Venezuela has bought the Massachusetts electorate.
You're not taking the needed time to THINK long enough to understand this event.

If you don't understand it, please don't comment on it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #122
127. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #117
123. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #123
125. You seem to think its better for people to freeze to make a political...
point. We disagree with that, plus the fact that you make assertions about both Venezuela, its president, and its citizens that are, to be blunt, offensive in the extreme. Apparently, to you at least, the poor are too stupid, both here and in other nations, to vote for who they think is best for them. You would fit right in with the opposition of Venezuela, BTW, have you ever heard them speak about the majority of the electorate in their own country? Its pretty racist and classist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #125
129. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #129
135. Coup plotters are democratic?
Plus, I believe that the ones shooting were the opposition, apparently you were misinformed. You did say, BTW, that this discounted oil deal should be stopped, what would be the result of that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #135
145. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #145
154. You mean like the TV news there...
You know, the ones that lie and distort, those media outlets? Why am I not surprised you would recommend them? The opposition OWNS all the newspapers in Venezuela and 90% of the TV media. Why should I believe a damn word from them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #123
134. I really don't have a problem with this
oil deal. if Chavez wants to score some cheap political points that's fine with me.

Chavez isn't the president of the US and I am not a venezuelan so fortunately I do not have to live under his erratic and authoritarian rule.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
59. Did she go into detail about the human rights concerns?
Seems a vague complaint.

The rest of it is all heresay... as you might guess that doesn't hold much water without any reasoning behind "she said".

I know lots of leftists who defend NAFTA. Doesn't mean much.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
50. Chavez is practically a dictator now
Who cares whether he's anti-Bush? Why should that necessarily make him a 'good guy'? Any good friend of Fidel Castro could never be a good friend of democracy, anyway.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #50
66. How is he "pratcially a dictator"?
Just curious, considering he has been democratically elected, and under the watchful eye of international observers, unlike our "democratically elected" leader.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #50
71. What kind of dictator helps the poor?? What kind of
dictator goes out of his way to allow the election process, a process contaminated with foreign meddlers, to run its course and get a 10% margin of victory. By that measure Bush is more of a dictator than Chavez.
Your specious application of principles is ludicrous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #71
88. Castro who says he helps the poor too
that is what he says, just like Chavez. what is the poverty rate in Venezuela now?? 60-70%?? but as long as you say you support the poor, I guess that makes it true.

an elected leader can still become an authoritarian. Both Bush and Chavez have shown that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #88
136. Here we go mr. Bacchus. You ignore the hard facts about Cuba
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 02:43 PM by happydreams
A higher literacy rate, lowest infant mortality, etc. This is the fascists game Ignore, Ignore,Ignore the facts then pump out a load of hype. You've got NO THING to support your contentions.

Anyway Cuba is a country under siege. So personal freedoms are going to be crimped. If the CIA would keep their fucking hands off of these countries they wouldn't have to resort to crimping liberties.Don't you agree?

What was Cuba before Castro? A country riddled with corruption and crime and the US backing the thugs like Batiste. Bush's buddy Felix Rodrigues (aka Max Gomez)was Batista's lieutenant, Santos Trafficante the CIA's drug kingpin. Whorehouses, gambling casino's and Dupont's Xanadu castle complete with their serfs.

You do not care about these lofty principles you expouse, you just hold certain people to those standards for political purposes, while ignoring the real thugs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #136
137. no, I don't agree at all
you are saying its the US's fault that Castro is repressive??

everyone is poor in Cuba. I wasn't talking about the literacy rate. I was talking about poverty.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #137
143. Are you saying that 45 years of unrelenting
hostility from a monster superpower does not effect Cuba???????

Please answer that question.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #143
148. didn't you say the US was responsible for Castro's crackdown??
why don't you answer that??

if my memory serves me correctly, Castro aligned himself with another repressive superpower, the Soviet Union, rather than the more open "monster superpower" the USA.

the repression in Cuba is of Castro's own doing. The US has long stated that if Cuba would hold democratic elections and refrain from its repressive actions, sanctions would ease.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #148
166. Baccus, Bacchus, Bacchus. Just anwer the question I asked above.
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 03:13 PM by happydreams
I asked first now. I promise to answer yours after you answer mine. Cross my heart and hope to die, etc.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. sure, it "affects" Cuba
and whose side did Castro choose????

again, all he has to do is hold free and fair elections and remove the oppression from his own people.

is that too much to ask??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #168
174. The US doesn't seem to ask that from China, Saudi Arabia,
and many others.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #174
226. Excellent point. Fear of Cuba or Venezuela is fear of
a good example. I think even the people who are opposed to Castro have to admit he is one tough guy. He doesn't sit around in mansions and luxury like his predecessor did. What kind of dictator is that?

Castro booted the drug dealers out. We should give Florida to Cuba, IMHO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #168
176. How can the US or you or anybody demand that a country
comply with some standard when they undermine that country. Bush fascists telling Cuban socialist to abide some political ideal. Idiotic claptrap!! The US is the biggest pre-cursor of violence and oppression in the world with its unsatiable demand for resources, resources gained through cheating, corruption and coercion.

You telling Cuba they must uphold some ideal while your own country falls far short is hypocritical at best. It's like the Mafia telling me I need to be more fair. :crazy:



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #176
186. so there is no right or wrong and no one has any business
standing for principle.

any corrupt, brutal, repressive government in the world is free and priveliged to continue to be so because my country isn't any better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #186
222. Regime change begins at home. "Put your own house in
order". Take your pick.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #222
223. You'll never hear these words applied to Bush's legacy:
.....Hundreds of similar shanty towns surround Caracas, and many have already begun to turn the corner. In some places, the doctors brought in from Cuba are working in newly built premises, providing eye treatment and dentistry as well as medicines. Nearly 20,000 doctors are now spread around this country of 25 million people. New supermarkets have sprung up where food, much of it home-produced, is available at subsidised prices. Classrooms have been built where school dropouts are corralled back into study. Yet it is good to start with the difficulties faced by the motorway village, since its plight serves to emphasise how long and difficult is the road ahead. "Making poverty history" in Venezuela is not a simple matter of making money available; it involves a revolutionary process of destroying ancient institutions that stand in the way of progress, and creating new ones responsive to popular demands.

Something amazing has been taking place in Latin America in recent years that deserves wider attention than the continent has been accustomed to attract. The chrysalis of the Venezuelan revolution led by Chávez, often attacked and derided as the incoherent vision of an authoritarian leader, has finally emerged as a resplendent butterfly whose image and example will radiate for decades to come.

Most of the reports about this revolution over the past six years, at home and abroad, have been uniquely hostile, heavily influenced by politicians and journalists associated with the opposition. It is as if news of the French or the Russian revolutions had been supplied solely by the courtiers of the king and the tsar. These criticisms have been echoed by senior US figures, from the president downwards, creating a negative framework within which the revolution has inevitably been viewed. At best, Chávez is seen as outdated and populist. At worst, he is considered a military dictator in the making.

Yet the wheel of history rolls on, and the atmosphere in Venezuela has changed dramatically since last year when Chávez won yet another overwhelming victory at the polls. The once triumphalist opposition has retired bruised to its tent, wounded perhaps mortally by the outcome of the referendum on Chávez's presidency that it called for and then resoundingly lost. The viciously hostile media has calmed down, and those who don't like Chávez have abandoned their hopes of his immediate overthrow. No one is any doubt that he will win next year's presidential election.

The Chávez government, for its part, has forged ahead with various spectacular social projects, assisted by the huge jump in oil prices, from $10 to $50 a barrel over the past six years. Instead of gushing into the coffers of the already wealthy, the oil pipelines have been picked up and directed into the shanty towns, funding health, education and cheap food. Foreign leaders from Spain and Brazil, Chile and Cuba, have come on pilgrimage to Caracas to establish links with the man now perceived as the leader of new emerging forces in Latin America, with popularity ratings to match. This extensive external support has stymied the plans of the US government to rally the countries of Latin America against Venezuela. They are not listening, and Washington is left without a policy.
(snip/...)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1495260,00.html

Brutal. Yeah, right. Propaganda only works on people who don't know any better, wouldn't you say? Sheesh.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #168
180. That is pretty naive
You honestly think it is the political model they oppose? Did that stop other right wing dictarships from getting open trade?

Here is a hypothetical: Cuba has the cleanest elections in the history of the world and Castro is elected, do you honestly think they would drop the embargo? Nope.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #180
183. I would say yes. but Castro won't allow that to happen
so you are right in that it is a hypothetical.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #183
188. Then you are naive
Chavez is democratically elected yet there is hostility/violence/subversion on the part of the US gov, meanwhile other dictatorships get prefered ally status (Saudi Arabia) if Venezuela had no oil and Chavez did the same thing he does today there would be an embargo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #188
209. not so sure, Iraq had an embargo and they have lots
of oil.

again, the actions of one country, any country, do not justify repressive actions by another.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #88
192. The poverty rate in Venezuela is in DECLINE.
At the very worst (2004-2005), the rate was at 53%. It was at 46% when Chavez inherited the government. This figure ignored that the actual living conditions of those in poverty had IMPROVED through government programs that were providing free services to the poor (food, medical care, education). The REAL rate is now in decline (2005).


"It is sometimes asserted that Venezuela under President Hugo Chavez Frias (1999 to the present) has been an economic failure, as compared with the past. For example, a recent news article in the Washington Post referred to "Hugo Chavez, the populist Venezuelan president whose giveaways to the poor have slowed economic progress."<1> These claims have no basis in fact. From 1970-1998 per capita income in Venezuela fell by 35 percent.<2> This is the worst economic decline in the region and one of the worst in the world -- much worse even than what happened to Africa during this period."

"Since the present government took office, per capita income growth is about flat,<3> and will be positive at year's end. So the Chavez government can at least claim credit for reversing the terrible long-term economic decline in Venezuela, according to the undisputed data measuring economic growth."

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1459
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #50
74. And I am practically a martian.
This rhetoric is getting a bit tired.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #50
78. Why do you believe Castro is a "bad guy"? Is it because the....
...U. S. media told you to think like that?

Is it because Castro tossed out a brutal rightwing dictator that was very friendly with the American rightwing to include the major corporations doing business in Cuba?

Is it because Castro shut down the casinos upon which certain Mafia families depended for a large chunk of revenue?

Is it because Castro turned to the Soviet Union for help when the U. S. turned him down flat?

Is it because Cuba has better national healthcare program than their much larger neighbor to the north?

Is it because Castro can evacuate a million people from the path of a hurricane in less than three days while their much larger neighbor to the north abandoned thousands of people in New Orleans?

I could go on, but I think you should be getting the picture by now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #78
86. Or is it because...
"The Cuban Criminal Code lies at the core of Cuba's repressive machinery, unabashedly criminalizing nonviolent dissent. With the Criminal Code in hand, Cuban officials have broad authority to repress peaceful government opponents. Cuba's criminal laws are designed to crush domestic dissent and keep the current government in power by tightly restricting the freedoms of speech, association, assembly, press, and movement."

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/Cuba996-03.htm




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. I'm not a particular supporter of Castro myself...
I'm more neutral on him than most, and don't really get all that riled up, but then again, he is better on his worst day than Bastita was on a good one. He isn't a saint, and neither is Chavez, we are just trying to counteract the FUD that surrounds both. Besides which, all Chavez is doing is practicing SMART foriegn policy. Cuba is one of his closest neighbors, in addition to which is also opposed to US-led neo-liberalism, so he views Castro as a bulwark against US hegemony, which hasn't been kind to Latin American countries. But, if we are actually honest, Chavez is a moderate, even in his own country, hell, the Bolivarian Circles within his country have a motto, "The Revolution, with or without Chavez", they can be just as cynical, and believe me, they are in many cases much more radical than Chavez even thinks of being. He uses fiery rhetoric for a simple reason, politics, to placate some of the more leftist elements in the movement that would like to see much more radical reforms.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. Chavez is making a good political move...
I'm just saying that there's are certainly reasons to have issues with Castro.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #50
97. Dictator? Really? By what standards, other than Chavez haters such as
you.

Let's see - he was OVERWHELMINGLY reelected 3 or 4 times now, each time with a greater margin of victory - near 70% last time around.

Some "dictator" - you guys never stop spewing lies, do you!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #50
152. How interesting. The opposition has the power to MAKE him a dictator
just by not showing up in the elections.

Mightily convenient, I say.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
98. Boy, they are all comming out of the woodwork today, aren't they!
Wonder where they've been hiding - must've been attending the rove lie seminars over the Turkey Day holidays!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #98
100. Must be!
God knows if we disagree with Chavez we must be tols of KKKarl Rove and the entire Repuke Party. I grow so weary of hearing this groupthink line from people who are ostensibly on the same side. As a liberal I don't feel obligated to be an apologist for Chavez - that doesn't make me a Freetard.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
101. American LTTE concerning William Delahunt's & Chavez's oil deal
for an allottment of reduced prices on oil in Massachusetts for the poor:
Letter: Buy from Venezuela
Thursday, December 1, 2005

To the editor:

There will be people who will have to decide whether to heat their homes or eat this winter, and I applaud Congressman Delahunt and Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez for your response. In meetings together, the discussion about poverty in the world came up, and in response President Chavez agreed to provide 12 million gallons of discounted oil to Massachusetts consumers and organizations that serve the poor.

In contrast to this generous response, the big American oil companies, Exxon, Chevron, Gulf and others, have refused to assist our citizens. A request was made to the big oil companies to assist Americans who are the hardest hit with discounted oil, and the response was a resounding no.

These same companies made billions of dollars in profits the last quarter of 2005 and they see no obligation to America to lessen some of the burden. Steve Johnson of the right-wing Heritage Foundation responded by calling Delahunt "an apologist for Chavez" and said that, "it is not something I'd like my congressman doing." This is exactly what I'd like my congressman to do and for others to follow this lead. Ask those who are the recipients of this oil if this is something they want their elected representative doing.

I personally would like to express my gratitude to both President Chavez and Congressman Delahunt for your kindness and compassion for others. I applaud President Chavez who, by the way, was overwhelmingly elected by more than 70 percent of the population in Venezuela in elections overseen by Organization of American States and the Carter Center. Polls are showing that President Chavez has a 65 percent approval rating among his people, while only about 35 percent of Americans approve of Bush.
(snip/...)
http://www2.townonline.com/somerville/opinion/view.bg?articleid=379735

(On page one the writer mistakenly expressed the belief Hugo Chavez nationalized Venezuela's oil. That actually happened January 1, 1976, somewhat before Hugo Chavez's time!)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #103
110. Wait a second.
"
Do we really want other governments to influence our elections??

I hope this deal is stopped."

Let me get this straight you think the NED funding opposition politics is not influencing elections? how would you propose to stop that Mass deal, jail time? I don't think you are being honest with yourself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #112
156. You still did not answer
How do you pretend to stop it? The US government gave aid during the Tsunami and scored PR points, operantly to you that is actually a bad thing.

Your absolutism is disturbing, poor people in Massachusetts benefit, Democrats benefit, Chavez and Venezuela benefit (most of the savings come from cutting the middle man), Oil companies lose, Bush loses.

Come again why are you opposed to this PR stunt?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #110
115. As you recognize, everything about the deal was ethical.
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 01:55 PM by Judi Lynn
There are two threads on this arrangement which ran here last week:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1944404

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1937221

I forgot to mention Joseph Kennedy was involved in securing this deal, as well, after working on it for months, just like William Delahunt. Here's his photo,at the front of the oil tanker hose, with William Delahunt, third after him in line (white hair) on the day the first shipment was delivered.



Clearly anyone who finds this project which Delahunt and Kennedy worked hard to secure doesn't share their Democratic convictions.For a poster to cast doubt on their legitimacy, after they made efforts to plead with American oil companies to help, and met a brick wall, would indicate he doesn't really get the drift of this event.

Seems like stupidity to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. Please explain how the poor of Massachusetts, who desperately
need help, especially after Republicans have cut aid to the poor this year for heating costs, are worse off for getting assistance from their Democratic Senators.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #118
132. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #132
138. Then why support the opposition in Venezuela?
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 02:41 PM by Solon
They were the ones who overthrew a democratically elected leader, they were the ones who shot at Chavez supporters with snipers, they were the ones who, the day after the coup succeeded, smashed apart and killed protesters to their regime, while they dismantled all democratic institutions in the nation. Granted, by the end of the next day, the coup failed, and Chavez was reinstituted into power. But, honestly, who is a greater threat to democracy? After all, the opposition still exists, even after they committed treason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. Chavez did too
who is he to talk about treason??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #140
147. Actually, if you want to get technical...
he didn't, for, up until he was elected into office, the office of the presidency was a rotating boys club of sham elections and practically one party rule, though there were few exceptions. So he decided to do it the legal way, and oddly enough, won an actual election, and is now instituting reforms that are increasing the participation of poor people in their own government. How is that wrong?

Even the reforms that he wanted instituted had to be debated upon and voted on by the PEOPLE of the nation, rather than instituted from "ON HIGH" as many claim. He encourages local participation in politics while leaving the opposition largely alone, they own most of the media, the government owns ONE station, and many of the poor are now starting local outlets, extensions of indymedia and other alternatives to the opposition owned media, and people claim that he is a de facto dictator for that? I don't understand it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #147
151. actually it was two party rule
and he did attempt to overthrow an elected president. which I guess is "technically" treason.

nothing wrong with helping poor people and increasing democratic participation.

It still doesn't justify his repressive and authoritarian actions does it??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #151
155. The point being...
Can you point to those repressive and authoritarian actions, with cites of course? And I'm talking specific examples, I mean, I can point to plenty that the opposition have done, if you like, such as the car bombing that killed the head prosecutor of those who were involved in the 2002 coup. The snipers that killed people in the Chavez crowd that were opposition members, or even the police repression in Caracas, lead by the Opposition Mayor no less!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:09 PM
Original message
besides the ones I posted earlier
concerning the insult laws.

here you can read a variety of different abuses by the Chavez government including the killing of 9 opposition protesters.

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
173. There is no evidence that Chavez encouraged or was personally...
Responsible for the abuses perpetuated by local police and National Guard in these instances. These instances are disturbing, as disturbing as the Miami protests were, or the Seattle Protests, and is on the level of Kent State. In all those cases, I never heard of any police officer or National Guard person who was thrown in jail for those actions. Do we know what happened to the people in Venezuela who were responsible for these actions?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #173
178. hah!! are you kidding??
justice in Venezuela??? now you are really going off the deep end.

Chavez has done nothing to combat corruption in Venezuela despite that being one of his three campaign goals. The others were to eliminate the 2-party system which he has done by creatinga one party system. and combating poverty where he has a LONGGGGGG way to go.

Transparency International lists Venezuela as one of the most corrupt government's in the world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #178
185. There is a difference between corruption and justice
Stop the red herrings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #178
190. From the FAQ of Transparency International themselves...
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 03:44 PM by Solon
http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005_faq.en.html

Look here:
16. Whose opinion is polled by these surveys?
Surveys are carried out among business people and country analysts, including surveys of residents of countries.

It is important to note that residents' viewpoints correlate well with those of experts abroad. In the past, the experts surveyed in the CPI sources were often business people from industrialised countries; the viewpoint of less developed countries was underrepresented. This has changed over time, giving increasingly voice to respondents from emerging market economies. In sum, the CPI gathers perceptions that are broadly based, not biased by cultural preconditions, and not generated just by American and European experts.


The Business class in Venezuela are the most strident opposition, can you come up with a more objective source?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #190
200. So predictable! Wow. This never fails to disgust a person, no matter how
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 03:53 PM by Judi Lynn
often it happens.

I HAVE SEEN occassional DU visiting posters refer to this source. Oh, my gosh.

Thanks for taking the time to check on it. Thanks. Yuck.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #200
202. I don't trust any source about surveys, especially international ones...
unless I know the methodology.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #200
207. travel article on Venezuela
for our resident non-Spanish speaking Venezuela expert. you really should go sometime. why is street crime increasing do you think??

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/27/travel/27caracas.html?adxnnl=1&8br=&adxnnlx=1133471045-Pe0IpKWlZphZsRRqYTqFbQ
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #207
210. Ah, you've chosen an article by that foremost Venzuela authority,
Juan Forero! Congratulations!
~snip~Also last April, New York Times reporter Juan Forero reported that President Chávez had “resigned” when, in fact, Chávez had been kidnapped at gunpoint. Forero did not source his knowingly false claim. Forero, on Apr. 13, wrote a puff piece on dictator-for-a-day Pedro Carmona — installed by a military coup — as Carmona disbanded Congress, the Supreme Court, and the Constitution and sent his shock troops house to house in a round-up of political leaders in which sixty supporters of Chávez were assassinated. Later that day, after the Venezuelan masses took back their country block by block, Carmona fled the national palace and Chávez, the elected president, was restored to office.

Forero — who allowed US Embassy officials to monitor his interviews with mercenary pilots in Colombia, without disclosing that fact in his article — was caught again last month in his unethical pro-coup activities in Venezuela. Narco News Associate Publisher Dan Feder revealed that Forero and LA Times reporter T. Christian Miller had written essentially the same story, interviewing the same two shopkeepers in a wealthy suburb of Caracas, and the same academic “expert” in a story meant to convince readers that a “general strike” was occurring in Venezuela. The LA Times Readers Representative later revealed that Forero and Miller interviewed the shopkeepers together. Neither disclosed that fact.

In many ways, it has been the credibility problem posed by Forero that led to Toro’s hiring last November by the Times, and the importation of Times Mexico Bureau Chief Ginger Thompson to Venezuela last month.
(snip/...)
http://www.agrnews.org/issues/210/mediawatch.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[]blockquote]Forero's journalistic record in relation to Venezuela is at best shaky. On the day after the military coup in Venezuela he wrote an article for The New York Times which did not mention the word "coup" once and had the amazing headline "Venezuela Chief Forced to Resign; Civilian Installed". This sounds like a well-rehearsed pantomime and it works like this: Washington leaks some disinformation it would like published to a friendly journalist. The material is published but no sources are quoted. Once the "news" is already in the public domain and has been picked up by the major news agencies and outlets, then the State Department issues a "denial" which is not reported anywhere. The damage has already been done.
(snip/...)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coverage of the recent election in Venezuela offers a particularly interesting case of how we choose not to see what is right before us—practically our national obsession. For purposes of illustration I refer to an article by Juan Forero of The New York Times that ran on the day following the elections last week.

This article was particularly notable because of the sharp dissonance between the facts it dutifully reported and the interpretation it then imposed on those facts. Chavez won a victory at the polls 58% to 42% in his favor, reports Forero, a difference of 1.4 million votes—with the largest turn-out observer Jimmy Carter had “ever seen.” Then Forero editorializes: “But the voting, if anything, showed clearly that millions of Venezuelans—not just the very rich, as Mr. Chavez contends—want him out.”
(snip)

Conceding that Chavez probably won the election fair and square (a fact later corroborated by both independent election monitoring groups), Forero couldn’t let pass the opportunity to observe, “The government also spent handsomely on a sophisticated campaign that scared Venezuelans into believing a ‘yes’ vote for the recall would be a vote for American imperialism and the corrupt political parties that had ruled this country in the past.”

By inference, Forero strongly suggests that the gullible Venezuelan masses were hoodwinked into supporting Chavez. This is pure spin. It is much more likely that the vast majority of Venezuelans actually understand and willfully resist American imperialism, and view Chavez as their best guarantee against American-enforced abuses such as they have endured in the past.
(snip/...)
http://thingsasitis.net/2004/08/bending-venezuela.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

.....AND TO THINK, this fine reporter works for the wonderful newspaper which employed JUDY MILLER! Nothing but the best, eh?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #210
211. Whaaaaa? NY Times people acting unethically? Surely you jest. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #211
213. you are free to do your own research on crime in Caracas
I could provide many more. However, it seems there is more interest in attempting to discredit the source than acknowledging the obvious.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #213
214. I don't need to do research on the crime in Caracas.
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 04:44 PM by Guy Whitey Corngood
I've been hearing about it from Venezuelans since god was a teenager. Things went downhill at an accelerated rate since the 70s. What's your point?

My comment was about what has become a shitty paper with an agenda.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #213
218. If a liar writes an article, it would be silly to read it, obviously. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #213
220. I don't want to jump to hasty conclusions, but do you think there's any
connection between the horrendous, oppresive, crushing POVERTY in the town, and the crime rate? Don't want to be rash, I suspect it's possible.




A heavy rain washes these houses right down the hill. A fire takes a ton of them, as fire trucks can't get anywhere near a fire.

You're very wise to turn your nose up at them. :sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #210
212. so you don't think crime in Caracas is a problem???
I invite you to go there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #212
215. Why do you jump so much from topic to topic?
It makes it hard to reply. Hopefully I can put it all here.

The actions of country A do not justify the actions of another, that said what you wrote about the embargo being just about democracy is not logical.

Crime in Caracas is big time, his strategy to end it is long term development and education, still he could do more to help with it today even if it is the responsibility of the mayors. Big failure.

Corruption still happening but it has decreased by orders of magnitude, before billions were siphoned today perhaps tens of millions, the culture of corruption runs deep. Failure




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #215
217. I've read that the mayor of Caracas is a determined Chavez foe.
At least the man who was the mayor there during the coup against Chavez was. I don't know if he's still there.

You're right: the individual cities are controlled by their mayors, you would think! If not, what IS their job?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #212
216. I know it's bad. Someone there murdered the prosecuting attorney
who was putting a case together on the coup plotters. Let's see, who would benefit from his death?

Yeah, sounds mighty scary around there, what with snipers on the bridge killing pro-government protesters, bombers (like all the Cuban "exile" C-4 plastic bombers in Miami) killing Danilo Anderson with a C-4 explosive.

Not much to like about those criminals.

Here's a photo of a Caracas slingshot protester, and a photo of a marble taken from the dead body of a pro-Chavez protestor, killed by a slingshot scum.


Juxteposed with the Citgo sign, a photo which was widely distributed in 2002.



A marble was extracted from the body of Mr Jose Vilas, killed
during an opposition protest on March 1st. Commercial media
and opposition politicians had claimed that the projectile that
killed Vilas came from a military weapon.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:GGHSMHmejocJ:ww.venezuelanalysis.com/print.php%3Fnewsno%3D1218+Caracas+protester+slingshot&hl=en
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #212
219. If crime in Caracas is Chavez's fault, & not the mayor's responsibility,
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 05:20 PM by Judi Lynn
then WHAT'S THE MAYOR SUPPOSED TO DO WITH HIS TIME? Singing lessons?
Tap dancing?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #190
205. lets see, business people who must undertake business
in the country, country analysts, and residents.

yet you focus on business people. why is that??

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #205
224. Just saying that if it were the farmers who participate in the co-ops...
or maybe the people who live in what still are slums surrounding Caracas, and not those that live in the big assed houses, then they MIGHT actually be more objective. I'm not saying to NOT talk to the opposition only, just talk with the base of Chavez's support. Jesus Christ some people are blind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
181. The article you mentioned does NOT hold Hugo Chavez's goverment
resposible for those deaths. It suggests the government look into the cause.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/02/19/venezu5323.htm

The last sentence in the article:
At least seven people have been killed and scores injured in street protests since December 2002, but there have been no confirmed reports of extrajudicial executions of opposition or government supporters.
(snip/)

Where does Hugo Chavez enter into this story?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Call or email Human Rights Watch offices and tell them that you believe that human rights are important issues and should not be used as a way to protect subversive groups that are funded by channeled CIA money and the US government and attack legitimate elected governments such as Venezuela. They should not be using human rights as a way to protect groups that participated in a coup in a country that has a democratically elected government and democratic constitution.
http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/3285.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #140
159. Chavez led a coup against a man who ordered his military to massacre
unarmed civilians protesting his move to price their only transportation, the buses, beyond their ability to afford. That president was later impeached, and imprisoned. Here's the timeline I posted earlier:
The President was Carlos Andres Perez.

1973 - Venezuela benefits from oil boom and its currency peaks against the US dollar; oil and steel industries nationalised.

1983-84 - Fall in world oil prices generates unrest and cuts in welfare spending; Dr Jaime Lusinchi (AD) elected president and signs pact involving government, trade unions and business.

1989 - Carlos Andres Perez (AD) elected president against the background of economic depression, which necessitates an austerity programme and an IMF loan. Social and political upheaval includes riots, in which between 300 and 2,000 people are killed, martial law and a general strike.

(Note: the difference in the totals represents the gulf between the official government count of the people Perez massacred, and the total estimated by the people who were on the scene. JL)

1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez is jailed for two years before being pardoned

1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.

1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.

1998 - Hugo Chavez elected president.
(snip/...)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1229348.stm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


If ever a man had earned a coup attempt on his corrupt, barbaric administration, it was Carlos Andres Perez. He is still loved by the Venezuelan opposition, and calls publically for the assasination of Hugo Chavez. He and his fellow scum are determined to get Venezuela back in racist right-wing claws.

Here's the filthy P.O.S. with a great American Republican, George Bush.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:16 PM
Original message
120 people killed in 2 coups attempts
the first led by Hugo Chavez

Thanks for posting that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
206. I haven't looked into this, yet, to determine how many were killed, & why.
Have you forgotten that Carlos Andres Perez had, a year or so before the first coup, led by Chavez, had his forces murder unarmed poor demonstrators? The government claimed it was around 300, and the people on the streets insist it was at least 2000, and some reports go as high as 3000.

Why WOULDN'T Venezuelans who were threatened by this violent president want him to leave immediately? He DID leave office sooner than he wanted, when he was impeached.

Have you overlooked those killed during the coup against Chavez? There's no deep mystery surrounding those deaths now, even though all efforts were made to attribute them to Hugo Chavez.
At present the media shows endless images of National Guard (pro-Chavez) violence against demonstrators as it paints the Metropolitan Police (opposition controlled) as heroes of the people. This is misleading to say the least, as the Caracas Metropolitan Police are the most brutal police force I have ever encountered. After the April 11 coup, police forces killed perhaps 40 government supporters while trying to strengthen the hold of Pedro Carmona’s short-lived government. In 1989 they were responsible for the worst massacre of democratic Venezuela’s history - between 300 and 2000 people were killed. I have been tear-gassed by the PM (as the police are called) simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time, as they broke up a strike led by some of their fellow officers who were tired of the politicization of their mandate. The PM routinely fire on demonstrators with live ammunition (I have had to hide behind brick walls), and on any given day walking in the barrios or Centro of Caracas, one can find civilians who have at some point in the last year been shot by the PM, and bear the casts to prove it. As the street conflict, which also features pro-government supporters throwing molotov cocktails at the PM, grew ever more dangerous, the national government three weeks ago called in the National Guard to replace the PM and calm Caracas. The opposition has used this to record images of a militarized Caracas, to add support to their’dictatorship’ story. But for those of us who travel through, live in or work in the center of Caracas, we feel safe for the first time in months.
(snip)
http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:Gvxtx95JHAAJ:www.labournet.net/world/0301/venez2.html+Hugo+Chavez+coup+attempt+people+killed+circumstances&hl=en
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #140
169. Heck, George Washington and rest
overthrew an oppressive regime. It isn't the coup Baccus, but what it was about that matter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #169
170. I see, so another self righteous political leader
in Venezuela or any other country in Latin America would be justified in rising up against Chavez's authoritarian measures and reclaim "justice" for all.

boy, that sounds familiar.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #170
175. LOL, the motives of the opposition was to protect their pocketbooks...
They could give two shits about the rest of the people in the nation, they are the "help" only to exist for the sole purpose of serving the Elites' needs. Just listen to them, and you know that would be true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #170
177. Proof is in the pudding Bacchus, proof is in the pudding.
I'm out of time, be back tommorrow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #177
179. ahh, thanks for fullfilling your promise
adios
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #179
221. Your're welcome. Good to see you getting a little more polite
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 06:01 PM by happydreams
Don't worry I won't be to hard on you. :}(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #116
121. Wait a second...
buy the votes? How? Is it not the JOB of representatives to actually help their constituents, in any way they can that is limited by the law? Think of it this way, even if it is political, I don't think that they will check party registration of those who recieve the oil at reduced prices using this program, so what is the ethical problem? Its similar to, let's say, the political moves of domestic and foriegn programs that are considered ethical. Did FDR check the party registration of those that were hired for public projects during the Great Depression? Did he only make sure that Democratic farmers got electricity? No, of course not, but he was possibly pandering for votes, that is true of ANY politician, from Delahunt to Chavez, but is it really wrong?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #121
139. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. So politicians and volunteer workers shouldn't do anything?
What is the point of electing these people if they don't pander in the first place? What the hell is the point of government at all, what, you prefer if everyone lived like people do in Somalia or something?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #141
144. This dude has a very weird fixation with Mr Chavez.
It's like Chavez stole his girlfriend or left a bag of flaming poop on his porch or something.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #144
149. The thing that gets me is this...
Chavez is neither a God nor a Devil, he is a politician like any other, but for some reason, they make him out to be a Devil, when in reality it isn't that simple. Is he pandering for votes, yes, but ALL politician in DEMOCRATIC countries do the exact same damn thing. If he helps people in the process, all the better I say! Its better than what Bush does, looking for or creating problems that don't exist, then creating sham solutions to pander to voters, many of the solutions are even worse than the problems they are supposed to solve.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #149
153. At this point from what I've seen in this thread, it's just grasping for
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 03:02 PM by Guy Whitey Corngood
straws. You made a good point. Maybe politicians, philanthropists, well pretty much everybody should stop doing anything. I'm sure if we looked hard enough ulterior motives can be found anywhere.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #141
162. There is a line of political thought that says helping the poor is evil.
Once you take that into account, everything makes sense again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #139
171. So politicians should not be chosen based on merit?
How should we choose them then? Should the politician who helped the least number of people win, because he pandered the least?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #103
146. Pure politics?? Tell that to the people who keep from freezing
this winter while the oil companies bloat from record profits.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #103
157. HOLY. FUCKING. SHIT.
I have no words. Really.

No, wait. I have some.

Besides everything else that's wrong with that post... you're mad that a DEM politician will get votes?

Yep. Gave yourself away big time. Buh-bye.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #157
163. What does a Brazilian know about South America?
Geez - you have some nerve!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #163
164. Yeah no shit. I mean if at least he had a Venezuelan girlfriend, them
maybe.......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #164
172. I got into it with a girl once who spoke about her Venezuelan boyfriend
you know - the rich one. It was a fun talk. She picked the wrong day for it too as I had just finished 6 hours of protesting the RNC. Good times.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #172
184. I used to get into it with them (both Vens and significant others) all
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 03:43 PM by Guy Whitey Corngood
the time. From what I could gather: Cuban doctors were murdering people (not merely being incompetent mind you, actually poisoning them). Chavez orchestrated the coup himself to consolidate his power. Everybody was happy in Venezuela before Mr CHavez. There was no racism in Venezuela only clacism you see. All those racist ass comments I had heard from Venezuelans since childhood were merely jokes. The 70 0r 80% poor were a bunch of lazy asses. I could go on and on. Oh yeah all positive statistics regarding Chavez's programs whether reported here or there are total bullshit.

You get the picture I think. I just gave up. Now we just get drunk and don't mention politics.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #184
189. The have's are afraid of the havenot's
its an age old scenario
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #157
187. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #187
191. You are priceles
And fun to watch
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #191
193. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #193
195. Since when do liars fail? EOM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #191
196. Exceedingly.
I feel all giddy inside when I, with but a gentle nudge, trigger a total meltdown. Makes one feel good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #191
198. OK, another one down...
I love you guys. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #198
203. Just doin' our duty!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #198
204. They don't call me...
KOMMIE PIИKO DIЯTBAG for nothing!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #204
208. You and ChavezSpeakstheTruth just might get audited, or hacked soon!
The poor, poor "democracy" lover. Shot down in his "idealistic" prime.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #208
225. Hah!
Bring 'em on!


:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #187
194. If only everyone in the world agreed with you eh? EOM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #187
197. How about now?
Asshole.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #103
158. Hahahahaha! You make me laugh! Good thinking, Tex
:thumbsup:


I love this place!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #103
160. By that logic,
no politician could ever make an agreement with a foriegn country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #160
167. Maybe they could
as long as it ONLY helped the rich.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
227. What I must know.....
Is Bacchus, the original one that is, the guy who ratted out Moses to Ramses, and, if so, should we believe anything his namesake says? :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #227
228. Kick. We need to hear that answer!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC