Sir Paul McCartney Calls on Canadian PM to End Seal Slaughter

Sir Paul and Heather McCartney Call on Canadian PM to End Seal Slaughter!

11/30/2005

WASHINGTON – In a letter to the Canadian Prime Minister released today, Sir Paul McCartney and his wife Heather called for an end to the annual commercial slaughter of hundreds of thousands of harp and hooded seals off Canada's East Coast—the largest kill of marine mammals on earth.

The McCartneys, known for their social activism, expressed dismay that Canada, renowned for its socially progressive values such as the Mine Ban Treaty that the McCartneys are heavily involved with, would promote the cruel hunt. "We simply can't understand why you would allow these beautiful animals to be bludgeoned, clubbed and shot to death simply for their fur," they wrote. "Clearly, there is no scientific basis for this slaughter, as most scientists, including those at the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans, have refuted the claim that killing seals will help the cod stocks to recover."

The seal hunt is an off-season activity conducted by commercial fishermen from Canada's East Coast. Even in Newfoundland, where more than 90 percent of the sealers live, sealing income accounts for less than one percent of that province's gross domestic product and under three percent of the landed value of Newfoundland's fishery.

Full story here: http://www.hsus.org/press_and_publications/press_releases/sir_paul_and_heather.html

...and knows what's going on with the seal hunt and why it's happening.

I'm going to get flamed and I don't give a shit.

Until people have been to Newfoundland and know why the seal hunt is happening and provide an alternative means for these folk to support themselves (not that funds from sealing really do that - it's a job for the desperate; always has been), PETA et al should just shut the fuck up.

Pardon my french.

The PM isn't gonna be doing much about things like this for a while.

<snip> The seal hunt is an off-season activity conducted by commercial fishermen from Canada's East Coast. Even in Newfoundland, where more than 90 percent of the sealers live, sealing income accounts for less than one percent of that province's gross domestic product and under three percent of the landed value of Newfoundland's fishery.<snip>

Doesn't seem to support your position...

...and they'll do *ANYTHING* to bring in a little more money during the off season for fishing, because you know, there ain't that much fishing anymore in Newfoundland since the cod moratoreum. Even if all they make for 4 weeks on the flows, doing such a dangerous job is a measly $1000 bucks for it's worth it to them.

The report is absolutely right. It is not a lucrative endeavor, but folks in the outports will grasp at anything that might let them stay in their homes for another year.

Newfoundlanders *HATE* the seal hunt. It's disgusting, dangerous, cold work that does not pay very well. It is the last refuge of the desperate, it's always been that way. But they do it because they don't have a choice. Newfoundlanders are sick and tired of depending on government handouts, they've had more than 10 years of that and they don't solve jackshit. The seal hunt is a way for Newfoundlanders to depend on themselves for a change, instead of some politician in Ottawa who wouldn't know a cod from a seal from a hole in the ground.

I studied Marine Biology in university. I don't like the seal hunt! It's a disgusting and barbaric practise and I wish it would stop. But that's easy for me to say, warm and dry, in a house I can actually sell for at least what I bought it for, in a town where my husband and I can make a decent living for our family, where an extra $1000 a year doesn't mean the difference between surviving the winter on hardtack and surviving the winter on hardtack and beans.

found that the seal hunt provides only 100-150 full-time equivalent jobs a year. With the government subsidies to the hunt, for everything from ice breakers to help sealers get to the kill fields to advertising dollars to promote the hunt to lost dollars due to boycotts, the hunt costs each Canadian citizen approx $30,000 in government waste a year. This is hardly wise fiscal management.

It'd be cheaper to just hand money out to those who claim they need it, than to keep promoting this slaughter. Let's be honest...seal hunters do this because they enjoy killing animals. It isn't necessary, it isn't supporting families, and it's a drain on the Canadian treasury.

and they've always been skewed against the seal hunt.

I was in Newfoundland this summer. Visited several outports and talked to a lot of fishermen. I asked about the seal hunt. To a man, they hated going out on those ice flows. They hated living on those boats, they hated the sound, they hated the smell, they hated the job.

But the hunt is a way to keep themselves self sufficient, keep them from going to the government for another damn program that isn't going to do them any good and that will be yanked out from under them the next time cuts needed to be made in social programs.

It's easy to sit back and judge these people. It's a very different thing to look them in the eye while they tell you stories about friends getting trapped on the flows, or falling through cracks in the ice. They are some of the most honest and steadfast people I've ever met, and I've got a lot of respect for them.

I may not like the seal hunt, but I will grant the Newfoundlanders the right to do what they need to do to keep their communities and their culture alive. Until someone comes along with a solution to this problem instead of more sanctomonious judgements, people like Paul McCartney can go to hell.

the government to hand them the money it spends in keeping this despicable business going? Whether they like it or not, they ARE getting a government hand out. There'd be a lot less suffering if they were honest about it.

Oh, and I don't believe they don't enjoy what they do. I watch film of the hunt all last spring. It isn't hard work, walking up to a helpless infant sea mammal and clubbing it in the head. They might have been cold, but beyond that they weren't suffering.

I'll save my compassion for the creatures who really suffer, thank you.

IS a government program.

"the hunt costs each Canadian citizen approx $30,000 in government waste a year"

Population of Canada = 32,800,000
GDP of Canada = $1.02 trillion

Some quick math shows:

32,800,000 x $30,000 = $984,000,000,000 ($984 billion)

My guess is that the hunt does not cost 98% of the entire economic output of Canada.

I do, however, agree completely with your argument that it would be cheaper in both economic and political terms to hand over money to the hunters. Unfortunately, handing money to idle people has not been shown to provide a long-term solution to either their happiness or their well-being. What really needs to happen is to find something else for the hunters to do that gives them a sense of purpose and self.

Peace.

And with the $millions that our government gives away in corporate subsidies, it would make sense to pay those hunters not to hunt.

Besides, think of the damage it's doing to our national image.

That must be worth something.

aren't there any problems in the u.k. that need the attention of a knighted know-it-all or is it only other countries that he has a problem with and england is like all perfect and all?

...why doesn't he come up with a solution.

that was very unpopular in the UK. The title was "Give Ireland Back to the Irish!"

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/paul-mccartney/105826.html

Give ireland back to the irish
Don’t make them have to take it away
Give ireland back to the irish
Make ireland irish today
Great britian you are tremendous
And nobody knows like me
But really what are you doin’
In the land across the sea

Tell me how would you like it
If on your way to work
You were stopped by irish soliders
Would you lie down do nothing
Would you give in, or go berserk

Give ireland back to the irish
Don’t make them have to take it away
Give ireland back to the irish
Make ireland irish today

Great britian and all the people
Say that all people must be free
Meanwhile back in ireland
There’s a man who looks like me

And he dreams of God and country
And he’s feeling really bad
And he’s sitting in a prison
Should he lie down do nothing
Should give in or go mad

Give ireland back to the irish
Don’t make them have to take it away
Give ireland back to the irish
Make ireland irish today

Give ireland back to the irish
Don’t make them have to take it away
Give ireland back to the irish
Make ireland irish today

Yes he does unpopular political stands in the UK. So did John.

Damn those foreigners, butting in and giving their opinions!

They should try not overfishing the shit outta the stocks. They're just wiping out the competiting.

Fucking please. And pardon MY French.

I was hoping someone in this thread would start to make sense at some point. Thanks.

And am new to this venue.

However, I did expect more in terms of the commentary. If you don't care about the seals, you don't care. But don't go a step further and pretend it is ok. Go to any animal web site and view the footage. Change you mine.

"If most of us rounded a corner on a highway and saw a slaughter like this, we would call the police, we would scream until our throats gave out, we would probably charge the men with clubs. We wouldn’t say, “I’d do something, but there are so many other problems in the world …” Patti Davis, Newsweek, 4/6/05

Afterall, if you support ending it, all you have to do is stop eating Canadian seafood. Does not seem like asking much....

> They should try not overfishing the shit outta the stocks.

Shame that only a few people here seem to realise this.

The reason that the "hunters" get all the handouts (direct & indirect)
to sponsor the "hunt" is that they have brought the once bountiful
fishing grounds to the point of extinction.

I totally agree with the later post that criticised the outsiders boats
(Japanese, American, European) that are doing the same thing BTW but
I don't see the Japanese, American, Scottish, whoever getting *their*
government to sponsor a blood-fest as some kind of therapy for having
exterminated the cod in the first place.

What I do see is a billygoat-eater and a few echo chambers trying to
make out that the seals "were asking for it".

pfft! Give me a FUCKING BREAK!!!! :argh:

My boyfriend saw him in concert last night. Said he was great.

Glad he speaks out for those who have no voice.

Anyone who could kill a seal or wear it's hide is beneath contempt and so is any government that encourages such brutality.

Saving the seals is way below on the list than stopping the war!
Sir Paul needs to get his priority list reordered.

Let's just value all lives, it's not a zero sum game.

fortune with everybody who'd lost their income there...

Ooo-oooh, poor little cuties. They look so 'Walt-Disney-ish'. These heartless barbarians murder them just for the fun of it each year... Yeah. In part because every single one of 'em ends up eating tons of cod. Oooo...

Hey, Paul... How about screaming your disgust every day to Poodle Bliar about his unecessary slaughter of thousands of innocent Iraqui babies and their mothers, hey? Sir? How about really standing up for them, like, on a daily basis, huh? Oooo-oooh, they don't look 'Walt-Disney-ish' enough for ya?

Ex-Beatle fan here, about to throw away all vinyl disks, CDs, and DVDs to the recycle bin pretty soon... :argh:

..."Ex-Beatle fan here, about to throw away all vinyl disks, CDs, and DVDs to the recycle bin pretty soon... "

I'll take them off your hands, and you want have to look or listen them again. Send 'em to me! I'll even pay postage....:hippie:

Paul wrote sentimental crap

have decimated the cod population. They hate competition, so they take out whatever is in the way. They blame the seals, even though it's been outwardly proven that they're wrong. Then, they sell the pelts for a little extra dough (or they leave them there, bleeding, to die). That is, of course, when they aren't assaulting humans that try to bring these facts to light.

and leave marine mammal exploitation behind us. The collapse of the fish stocks in the Grand Banks has hurt Newfoundland and the other marine provinces, but that's a direct consequence of over fishing. The environment will only take so much exploitation, whether it's a rainforest or an ocean. There is only so much for the Earth to give, before it's depeleted, unsustainable. It's a painful lesson, but we've reached our limits and have to look for other sustainable ways of making a living.

Read Farley Mowat's Sea of Slaughter to gain an insight on what the marine environment was like before the Europeans arrived, and what it has become.

My heart goes out for those fishermen without jobs, but I'm afraid it's better to be on the dole than to be causing any more damage. Even time to find a new life style perhaps.

And amen to that!

...:thumbsup:

Gotta love people who take a stand on someting they obviously know nothing about.

There is so much dishonesty and misinformation surrounding the seal hunt....even the picture of the seal pup is a lie. The pups are not harvested.

There's vets on the ice with the hunters and the hunt is humane.

As well, they are not an endangered species and the hunt is not going to make them one.

People who look at the picture of that cute little baby and buy into the BS these groups are selling (and even send them money, btw) are being hoodwinked.

People on the left are obviously and correctly concerned with humane treatment of animals and sustaining natural populations...thus they are easy targets for these groups.

These hunts are indeed very real.

What to explain yourself a bit?

Nearly everything you posted is untrue. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. This is a cruel and inhumane activity. Seal pups are indeed harvested. This is all well documented.

I could go on but I doubt your mind will be changed.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/reports-rapports/facts-faits/facts-faits2000_e.htm

read that top to bottom. It's a government site which is obviously conveying science. This is not some huge industry that a dishonest rightwing government is defending, keep in mind.

Now go to the big anti-hunt site:

http://seashepherd.org/news/media_030305_1b.html

Check out the second from the top and left menu item:

Online Donations

Check out the graphic-laden text on the left:

Visit our Online Store!

Hmmmm. Looks like they're wanting your money!!


Now, I've provided government documentation regarding the seal hunt. You can say everything I say is not true if you want, but as you say....just because you say it doesn't make it so.

I'm a Canadian and grew up exposed to the realities. You're down there in LA. Where do you get all your information and education that allows you to tell me I'm posting untrue things and that seal pups are harvested and that it's inhumane?

My mind is open, is yours?

A government site? The Canadian govt supports the hunt (big fucking shock).

Okay, go check out the whitehouse.gov and buy into their shit too.

Yeah, you're a Canadian. So? I'm an American I don't buy shit coming from my government.

My mind is open...yours?

Let's get real here, k?

Think about motive, and think about source.

The Canadian fisheries department is staffed by conservationalists and scientists.

What about motive? The misinformed here have already made the point that the revenue from the hunt isn't such a big thing, so why would the government be looking to lie to protect it?

Let's not make naive generalizations about Canadian beaurocracies. That's akin to rightwingers calling the CBC a political arm of our government.

Like I said, I've grown up watching this issue. I get the impression that many here so vehemently against the hunt have gotten thier information from one of the many biased organizations set up to exploit the hunt with thier baby seal picture. Please send money...now...so we can save this baby seal.....(which it's illegal to harvest, btw).
sigh.

So Newfoundland Minister of Fisheries Efford meant nothing when he said, and I quote:
"I would like to see the six million seals, or whatever number is out there, killed and sold, destroyed or burned. I do not care what happens to them . . . the more they kill the better I will love it"."

Am I reading that right?

Look what that lying Sea Shepherd Conservation Society Founder and President "Captain Wilson" says about Efford:

“We are happy that the Canadian Government decided to replace Minister Efford, as it was impossible to enter into serious discussions regarding seals when the touted his resolution to exterminate the seals."

Uh, he is choosing not to run again due to health problems.

Does it bother you that this organization lies about this?

There's another article out there by this same group posing as news that says he was "forced to resign".

Again, does it bother you AT ALL that they lie about this well documented fact? If they lie about this, what else do they lie about?

Here's the legit story about his retirement:
http://www.cbc.ca/nl/story/nf_efford_future_20051118.html

Here's your pal, Captain Wilson (founder of the oh-so-trustworthy Sea Shepherd Conservation Society) writes:

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/11/emw314420.htm


Wait a minute, what's going on here?

:D

I guess the CBC is lying to protect the seal hunt, huh?

Or stand in a post of defamation. So quick to tout lies. So quick to back the government.

Hey, btw, Randy Cunningham resigned too "under his own will" right?

Hey, I respect your stand-and-fight attitude as it comes to your own govt. bullshit. At least it wasn't a strawman post this time.

More Kool Aid?

Did you compare the two articles?

Which part don't you understand?

You're a bit like Captain Wilson.

68 posts, you're a bit like...no, won't go there.

I'd sooner compare Fox to DU, thanks..

I realize being presented with clear evidence that a source of information you had 100% faith in is dishonest can make a person initially angry.

Mull it over. You don't have to admit anything to me, just be faithful and truthful to yourself.

The dumb thing is there was no reason for that Captain Wilson organization to lie about Effords retirement. Doing so only screwed their credibility.

you take care, no hard feelings.

I'm flattered by the Watson reference, btw.

Who lied again?

Oh yeah, yo...no, won't do it.

Have a good evening.

This "founder and president" of the "Sea Shepherd Conservation Society".

I posted a clear demonstration of this simple truth.

Let's stop making this personal, alright? If you wish to debate it in good faith, I'm all for it. I apologize for calling you "Captain Wilson". It's Watson, in any event.

I am making no "straw man" argument here.

I demonstrated how this organization is labelling a story as "news" when in fact it's nothing of the sort and in fact is full of mistruths.

And please, don't pretend that the CBC is not a legitimate and honest news source.

"strawman" and edit your post.

You disprove what SSCS stated. Use all the govt. propaganda you can find. I'll go to bed, and when I wake up, I'll read and revisit what I've stated. Fair enough?

The hunt targets very young seals. The Canadian government's own figures show that 96.6% of the reported 286,238 seals killed during the 2002–2003 hunt were between 12 days to 12 weeks old. These seals were most likely beaten to death with a club or a large ice-pick-like hakapik. Later in the season, hunters use rifles.

An alarming number of the seals are skinned while alive and responsive to pain. Recently, an independent, international team of veterinarians observed the hunt and examined the corpses of skinned seals. They found evidence that up to 40% of them had skull injuries that were not sufficient to have caused death.

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/protect_seals/

AND

11/15/2005

WASHINGTON - Coinciding with the official opening day of the 2005-2006 commercial sealing season, The Humane Society of the United States today released a ground-breaking report by Oxford University Professor Rev. Andrew Linzey, who argues that Canada's commercial seal hunt cannot be morally justified and that basic principles of humane slaughter are violated in the course of the hunt.

"Because of the physical environment in which it operates, and the way in which it must be conducted in order to be commercially viable, Canada's seal hunt is—and must always be—inhumane," states Linzey. "The Canadian Government should make the commercial seal hunt illegal."

http://www.hsus.org/press_and_publications/press_releases/landmark_report_calls_for_end.html


Yes this looks very humane.

:crazy:

AMERICAN BUSINESS LEADER URGES PRIME MINISTER TO STOP SEAL HUNT AND AVOID DAMAGE TO CANADIAN ECONOMY


WASHINGTON (November 22, 2005) – In a letter to Prime Minister Paul Martin released today, famous financial and business leader Edward A. Kangas warned that continuing the annual commercial seal hunt could bring ruin to Canada’s fisheries economy and the viability of that nation’s fisheries. Kangas, former global chairman and CEO of Deloitte & Touche and currently a member of the Board of Directors of four New York Stock Exchange companies, cited the increasing success of a boycott of Canadian seafood, instituted by The Humane Society of the United States, as a major factor in the multi-million dollar losses suffered by the commercial fishing industry.


Two thirds of Canadian seafood is exported to the United States, producing $2.8 billion annually for the Canadian economy and making the industry a viable target for a boycott.


Undeniable cruel, the annual commercial seal hunt, which results in the clubbing deaths of hundreds of thousands of baby seals, is an off-season activity conducted by commercial fishermen from Canada’s East Coast. Even in Newfoundland, where more than 90 percent of the sealers live, sealing income accounts for less than one percent of that province’s gross domestic product and under three percent of the landed value of Newfoundland’s fishery.


“I and other leaders in the business community are amazed that Canada would allow its international reputation and fishing industry to be so heavily compromised for this economically marginal activity,” Kangas stated. “It is even more surprising when one considers that as the seafood boycott gains momentum, global markets for seal products are closing. Moreover, the damage to Canada’s international reputation and economy is growing exponentially. While the boycott focuses primarily on Canadian seafood and snow crabs, more and more people are now dispensing with tourism and other Canadian products.”


Rather than continuing the seal hunt, Kangas recommended that the Canadian government institute a fair sealing license retirement program, which would provide sealers with fair compensation for any lost revenue and a cost-effective exit for the federal government. “It would seem reckless and irresponsible for the government to allow the seal hunt to continue given the damage which may result to the economic viability of Canada’s fisheries and fishing communities,” Kangas said.


“It is unconscionable that Canada continues to promote this hunt, given the very real threat to its seafood industry if this boycott continues,” said Dr. John Grandy, senior vice president of The Humane Society of the United States. “We applaud Mr. Kangas for using his extensive experience and clout to call attention to the irresponsible actions of the Canadian government. This slaughter must end.”

Boycott away. This really isn't relevant to what I posted.

Paul Macartney can threaten to not perform in Canada anymore as well if he likes!

Edward A. Kangas is just another misinformed individual taken in by the BS.

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Practical/Health/beeffact.htm
~snip~
'Cattle are exposed to harsh living conditions, rough handling, and often outright abuse and cruelty throughout their short lives. Cattle are routinely castrated, dehorned, and hot-iron branded without anesthetics. Cattle released on the open range must fend for themselves for several months, often succumbing to weather extremes and other dangers. Animals transported to feedlots and slaughterhouses are often shocked with electric prods, beaten, kicked, dragged and deprived of food and water for long periods. Overcrowded trucks cause broken limbs; injured and sick animals are routinely dragged out of trucks and onto the kill floor where slaughter techniques remain primitive and brutal. The National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences estimates that the sickness, injury, and premature death of cattle represents an economic loss of $4.6 billion a year in the United States.'
~snip end~

Yeah. I boycott beef... But I ain't 'pushing my values through anyone's throat'... By the way, Iraqi babies don't deserve to be massacred because CEOs never can get enough billions from their parents' oil...


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/africa/1464966.stm
~ snip ~
"According to the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation, demand for fish has risen at twice the rate of human population growth since 1961 Ships from the EU are not the only foreign industrial trawlers operating in this region. Russians, Chinese, Taiwanese and Koreans are also here.

They are not only in competition among themselves but also with thousands of motorised African pirogues, modern-day descendants of the old fishing canoes.

Across the world, demand for fish and fish products has increased dramatically over the last few decades."

Many of our fisheries are in danger. We're constantly busting other nations boats from drag-netting off our shores, including American.

Don't eat our fish, please.

Oh, but I guess if it's Japanese and American and Polish fishing boats taking fish off our coasts they won't be affected by a boycott. Too bad.

The seal population is healthy and growing. Increased by 3 million in 30 years.

On edit: Oops.. I forgot the /sarcasm tag. :sarcasm:

And to mention the fact that I 'denounce' animal suffering in Canada also, but who cares: I ain't no Sir, nor CEO...

I don't want to search for emotional pictures too.

I dares ya....

Taking a stand on something, etc, etc.

The hunt is humane, says you. Define humane.

These groups. So every single animal welfare and animal rights group is completely off-base here? IFAW? HSUS?

You suggest that folks "obviously know nothing about" yet you provide nothing but opinion swaying far to the other side.

Back it up...I'll wait.

You make an interesting point about "humane".

If we're going to say that the killing of animals is inhumane, then yes the hunt is inhumane.

If we're going to say that killing an animal can be done in a humane way or an inhumae way, then the hunt is humane.

The misinformation that surrounds this issue is absolutely stunning. I have no motive to make such a claim....I'm leftwing and interested in truth from power which I think is an attribute the left can claim that the right cannot. However, my leftwing brothers and sisters are just plain mis-informed on this particular issue.

If you're against the killing of all animals then yes, you have a complaint here.

If conservation and the humane treatment of animals are your concerns then there's nothing to be concerned about here.

Meds...

So, leaving an animal alive, bleeding to death is humane (as HAS been documented in the most recent hunt)? Yes or no answer will be just lovely, thanks.

Misinformed? Maybe misfed (information).

I'd have a complaint here, regardless because it's bullshit. Fuck your government backing of this slaughter.

Some posters just have no fucking idea. Kool Aid, anyone????

Your angry and insultive post demonstrates the source of the ignorance on this issue.

Hopefully as you mature you'll be able to revisit this issue and educate yourself from more than just special interest groups seeking donations who lie and mislead.

And when you wrote "meds..." I assume you're calling out for some? :)

It proves what I was originally saying.

The part about leaving animals alive, bleeding to death. You say that was documented in the most recent hunt. I'd be interested in that, thx.

06/11/2005

Prominent Canadian Veterinarian Condemns the Canadian Seal Slaughter

The Canadian National newspaper the National Post ran an editorial on June 9th by Mary Richardson, a prominent Canadian Veterinarian.

This is her opinion, published in the National Post of the documentation of the Canadian seal slaughter this year:


This spring, the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) sent licensed observers from Canada, the United States, Britain, and the Netherlands to document the 2005 commercial seal hunt.

As a Canadian expert in humane slaughter, and past chair of both the Animal Welfare Committee of the Ontario Veterinary Medical Association and the Animal Care Review Board with the Solicitor General of Ontario, I was asked by the HSUS to review their 2005 seal hunt footage.

Without a doubt, what I witnessed was clear evidence of unacceptable and illegal cruelty to animals.

Among other things, the videos show seals that have been battered with a club or hakapik, and then left, or hooked and dragged, or skinned while still alive. The tapes show many of the wounded seals are still conscious and struggling for prolonged periods, as evidenced by their voluntary movements (crawling, crying out, laboured breathing, rolling, etc). In some scenes, seals with terrible head injuries are left in stockpiles of dead and dying animals, choking on their own blood and suffering tremendous pain - some for as long as 90 minutes. In others, sealers cut open seals that are clearly still conscious.

These are not humane ways to die as defined by the Criminal Code of Canada. When clubbing seals, sealers are legally required to kill each animal and then ensure that it is in fact dead, before moving on to kill the next one. But the vast majority of times, the sealers do not take the time to do this, which results in horrendous pain and suffering for
the wounded animals.

Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) spokespeople often attempt to dismiss allegations of cruelty at the hunt, saying freshly killed seals often exhibit a "swim reflex." But the hours of footage I have reviewed show clear evidence of seals showing conscious responses to pain.

In recent years, licensed observers have submitted video evidence of more than 660 apparent violations of the Marine Mammal Regulations - including seals being skinned alive - to the DFO. I have reviewed much of this footage, and I am appalled that the DFO has refused to lay a single charge in response.

The cruelty documented by the HSUS this year is not the extreme - it is the routine of the commercial seal hunt.

Canadian law prohibits this kind of cruelty at animal shelters, slaughterhouses and veterinary hospitals, indeed wherever animals are killed at the hands of humans. Canadians believe if an animal must be killed, the death should be quick and humane. But as the evidence shows, this is not what happens in the commercial seal hunt.

Given the size of the animal and the weapons the men are allowed to use, a quick death cannot be guaranteed. Imagine taking your dog in to be euthanized and finding out that the veterinarian was going to use a bat to do the job. Would that be acceptable to you?

There is also a time constraint. The sealers are paid per seal they kill, not by the hour. They compete against each other to fill quotas, making it necessary for them to collect huge numbers of animals in a very short time. This means sealers rarely take the time to ensure each animal is dead before moving on to the next one.

Now imagine the veterinarian, not just with your dog, but a field full of dogs. He has only one bat and a couple of minutes to do the job.

And finally, the conditions for the seal hunt are precarious. The ice floes shift and break, never ensuring a firm footing. So now put the vet, the bat and all the dogs on fun-house floorboards. In these conditions, can your dog die peacefully?

The seal hunt is inherently inhumane. If we are to respect existing animal-cruelty laws, the Canadian government must stop the seal hunt. Concerned Canadians and citizens around the world should contact their government representatives and demand immediate action. You can start by emailing the Canadian Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Geoff Regan at:
Min@dfo-mpo.gc.ca <http://us.f319.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=Min@dfo-mpo.gc.ca>, or calling his offices at (613) 993-0999

...IQ test. That would mean that person is not even functional. So I must assume that you have proof that he scored below 20 in order for you to make that accusation. Please post a copy of those test results to verify your accusation. Otherwise, you may want to rephrase your gross overstatement...

If Paul's interested in it. You can be sure its not too important.

Lennon. Harrison. THE REAL DEAL..



Paul & Ringo... silly people with too much money.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

and your post is an example of a direct insult. and against the rules. See we need to be civil in these arguments and you crossed the line there.


I have no problem with your opinions, I just think they are rather low on the priority list for Democrats and liberals, plus I totally disagreee with them.

Since the post you are answering was deleted I can't say what you were responding to but I think your statement that "...they are rather low on the priority list for Democrats and liberals,..." IF it refers to protesting and speaking out against the inhumane treatment of animals, is way off the mark.

Caring about the lives of all living creatures is very much a liberal, progressive issue. Yes, there are many problems in the world that need our attention, but for some of us animal rights is very important. So don't claim to speak for all of us here.

and I REALLY apologize if I am way off on my assumption. Please let me know if I am and I will delete this post.

and jesus and pretty flowers


I have no interest in discussing this subject further.

I care deeply about social justice and work tirelessly every single day to help the least amoung us in society. The US wars of conquest consume every single moment of every single day of my activities. I live only to serve the lessers around me and stop the killing of 100s of thousands of innocents by our US government. I would give my life if I could stop this war, if that was possible. But its not, so I do what I can. Like writing and fundraising and getting signatures to get my Democratic candidates on the ballot so we even have a chance to save the US from certain disaster.

Plus people love and hate me. That's HOW I'll BE REMEMBERED! Plus I helped more than a few people in their darkest hour. They will remember me.

Why are seals more important? to me the question is insane.


So HoW will you be remembered?

They're eligible for slaughter at 12 days old, at which time they are still dependent on their mothers for care. They are pups and they are killed. And yes, they are cute, but that's less an issue than that they are living creatures who deserve respect and peace.

Here is the Founder and President of Sea Shepherd Conservation Society (SSCS) "Captain Watson" passing off some "news":

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/11/emw314420.htm

And here is the real story from the CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/nl/story/nf_efford_future_20051118.html


So, why is this anti-seal-hunt activist telling such a blatent lie about the circumstances of this minister leaving government?
They seem to be claiming that his stance on the hunt has something to do with it, and they blatantly lie in claiming he was forced to resign.

If they lie about this, what else do they lie about?

I'll tell you:

They lie about baby seals being harvested.
They lie about the hunt being a threat to the population.
They lie about the circumstances/humanity of the hunt.

I don't know why they lie. Send them another donation, maybe "Captain Watson" will tell you.

:)

Weakest. Strawman. Ever.

Attacking SSCS...indeed.

You can't prove up a lie without your own CNN newsfeed.

Whatfuckingever.

Joke. Punchline. Thanks..

I've provided proof of "Captain Wilsons" dishonesty in good faith.

What are you saying to me in response? CBC = FOX?

Noplace....and rest assured Canada has LOTS of rightwing media...will you find claims that this Efford was "forced to resign" or that the seal hunt contributed to it. No media. Only this SSCS group.

So again, why are they lying to you?

You go first.

You've provided no "proof" btw...

That's sort of like saying a Freeper provided proof that Bush is a great pResident.

Just trying to find out where you're coming from.

What is it in the CBC article you think is inaccurate?

The CBC is sort of like NPR or PBS. Do you have equal scorn for them?

I'd still call it shit.

What are you claiming, exactly.

It appears you're saying the CBC is purposely being dishonest about Effords retirement.

As I said, rightwing media is plentiful in Canada. Nobody, except Captain Watson of the Sea Shepherd organization, claims that Minister Efford is not retiring voluntarily due to health problems.

If you go here http://seashepherd.org/news/media_051122_1.html you can clearly see this organization is not only making false claims, they're trying to pass off an article as official news. I can't find any legitimate source for that "news item".

It's propaganda and lies my friend. Realize you can admit this and still retain your position on the seal hunt.

to spend more time with their families. That was true too, if you take the news at face value.

there were at least SOME legitimate news or opinion items that speculated about the real reasons those people left.

All wisdom in Canada has Efford leaving for health reasons.

It's pretty stunning to go to this organizations web site http://seashepherd.org/ and see on the left side a supposed "news release" about a Canadian Minister "forced to resign", and compare that to the reality:

Globe and Mail:Efford calls it quits
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051123/EFFORD23/TPNational/Canada

CTV: Efford announces he won't run in next election http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051122/effort_election_051122/20051122?hub=Canada

CBC: Efford confirms he won't run again
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/22/efford-election051122.html

None of these mainstream Canadian news sources mention anything about seal hunt controversy OR that he was forced to resign.

I'm not stupid. I realize the reasons given for someone leaving government are not always the whole story. HOWEVER, I've never seen that kind of situation arise without the media picking up on it and making the point that althouth the person resigned, they were really being forced out. That doesn't exist here, except of course in "Captain Watsons" mind.

That you guys started.

banks that invest it in war-profiteering businesses across the pond....

IF any (of course).

Still... Could be sort of... "Interest-ing"(??)

Hey Paul, if you wanna bash one country... why don't you start with your own?

Here's a very easy link found with: Dead Iraqi Children Pictures...

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page19.htm <- WARNING: GRAPHICS

So, where's yo money, Paul? Dare answer that 'simple' question?

Maybe your money's invested in such a bank. Maybe you even pay taxes to directly support this war. How could you...

He's bashed his own country, by the way. And anyone has the right to criticize any other country -- especially so when a nation like the US is increasingly making its business the business of every person on the planet.

on lies for no-end-in-sight have-more's oil grabs, and weapons' testing.

As for Sir Paul, hey, perhaps my bad, but last time I looked, it was May 18... 2004! Many busy people can't remember who said what last month...

Time has spoken since day one, and before...
"Sir Paul McCartney has called for a ban on cluster bombs being used in war, and insists only "time will tell" whether the coalition forces were right to go in to Iraq."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2963091.stm

"Maybe," maybe not... (?!?)
Friday, 28 May, 2004, 13:00 GMT 14:00 UK
"Maybe our government went in too fast with the Americans," he told the weekly Portuguese magazine Visao on Thursday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3756545.stm

Yeah, maybe it's only moi, but I never saw him ACCUSING Bliar of launching a murderous war to line up the pockets of Carlyle and BP last month, or even yesterday, so I don't expect him to say it again today, and again tomorrow. (Why not? Why isn't he more outraged? Why not every single day until that shameful genocide for oil is stopped? Scared of 'losing' a few RW-fascist fans? Why would he be scared of that? Can't he sell enough tunes to make ends meet? Gimmie a break!!)

Peace. :hippie:

So would I.

One has nothing to do wit the other. Having 'bigger' issues to address does not make other concerns go away or be unworthy of attention.

Faulty logic, is yours.

His little brain likes cute white seals, not dirty arabs. He has no standing in the Liberal community, he sucks ass.

What a bunch of desperate right-wingers those clowns are.

Paul McCartney has had standing in the allegedly 'liberal' community since before most of us were able to pronounce conmunit..commnunit.......liberal. Get real.

to Paul! :thumbsup:

ten cents or get a thrill out of killing one

.... wotta thread. strawman! lies! strawman! lies! Hell it would take me a month of research to tell what is really going on and I just don't care that much.

We have way more systemic animal cruelty right here in the good ole USA.

I find it curious that folks get so worked up about this. I'll bet a few photos from inside a veal or chicken processing plant would shift the focus to something 1,000,000 times worse.

:toast: to Sir Paul!

Once upon a time, when liberals were in power, we were the party of women's rights, minority rights, and yes, animal rights. Rush Limbaugh started spewing his lies, and soon even self proclaimed liberals found themselves parroting his statements on these issues. "If you care about animals then you don't care about people", "jobs and families are more important" "You're supporting blue collar workers when you fight against nutty animal rights activists and environmentalists"..."etc. etc. etc. This crap all stated with RUSH LIMBAUGH and his ilk. Remember; the REPUGS are the ones who don't want an educated society that is innovative enough to create new environmentally friendly, socially responsible companies. "Fat, dumb, and happy" was the goal, said G.H. W. Bush. God forbid we should show another living, breathing, feeling creature some compassion. God forbid we should encourage superior education around the world to get the poor into high paying careers instead of bloody, inhumane greed driven enterprises!

But apparently there are plenty of DUers with no heart.

:puke:

Or, at least, loudly trumpeting their 'knowledge' of the true situation when their real knowledge is obviously lacking or painfully flawed. Blowhards suck even more than they blow.

For months The HSUS has been attempting to work with Darden Restaurants, parent company of the international seafood chain Red Lobster, to end the Canadian seal hunt, which slaughters hundreds of thousands of harp seals annually. We have urged Darden executives to join our increasingly popular Canadian seafood boycott by using its strength as a major importer of seafood to persuade the Canadian government to stop the hunt forever.

Read the entire article. See how the Pombo Congress' Top Environmental Post chair has been against the endangered species act, whales. seals, and more.

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/marine_mammals_news/something_fishy_darden.html

I'm on the left in the photo.

"Save a Frog"

Boycott Bush Cigarette Makers

Serious. Really What else could work? Ummm...

"Save an Iraqi Child"

Boycott (can't find what yet...: I need some good DU'ers' help here.)

Really. I'm all for that.

Peace. :hippie:

I don't follow your logic. Being against the seal hunt has nothing to do with the war in Iraq. God knows, the illegality of the Iraq war is well-know and much talked about (rightly). The seal hunt is not.

It's a brutal practice, much like others. But it's the WORLD'S LARGETS COMMERCIAL SLAUGHTER OPERATION AGAINST WILDLIFE! Anything strikes you about it as unusual?

While when Freepers say the same thing about people in other countries who criticize the war, people go ballistic.


Hypocrites: Where would we be without them.

Canada can do whatever the hell it wants.



We have no moral authority whatsoever to tell any country to do anything.


We are the USA. WE KILL AND TORTURE PEOPLE!



No other issue matters. NONE! Paul is part of the problem.

have to do with moral authority?

have been sullied. Its about first things first. I can't get at all excited about cod or seals, neither endangered. Meanwhile TIGER PARTS are being sold in China! Rhinos are almost extinct. Also the entire planet is being destroyed by mostly the US thru GLOBAL WARMING. Its about WASTING OUR TIME WITH THINGS THAT ARENT ON THE TOPOF THE LIST!!



We only have SO MUCH ENERGY! What is being done is under Canadian soveriegnty, MEANWHILE we have 15 secret torture camps around the world. Meanwhile another tiger is beign killed. Meanwhile another Iraqi is torture.

But the seals will make it, and the cod too. SO this is a waste of energy. AND PAUL is silly, stupid, totally out-of-touch, pretty boy who is NOT admired by me in any way whatsoever.

that we happen to be citizens of the U.S., should have no input on any injustices that we see outside of our country?

Look, um. Happy Holidays.

Take your pick. There have been several posts about Paul on China (dog and cat fur including the online petition), land mines, Seals, etc...

The dog and cat petition: http://www.heathermillsmccartney.com/petition.php



L-R: Rick Swain (Humane Society International), Heather Mills McCartney, Rick Wakeman. European Parliament, Brussels, March 1st 2005

numerous causes. I guess a frothing crusade against Paul is a great way to spend your energy.

For more than the "hunt" actually brings in:

"Most Canadians don't know that the seal hunt is subsidized by their
tax dollars. The Canadian Institute for Business and the Environment
reports that the federal government provided more than $20 million in
subsidies to the sealing industry between 1995 and 2001. Subsidies
are used to upgrade and construct seal processing plants, promote the
seal hunt abroad, develop new markets for seal products, and fund
research into the development of new seal products."

by building roads for them so that they can pillage more old growth forests, or giving Colorado river water rights to cotton farmers in California so that they can waste the last drops of it.

There may have been a time when these or other subsidies actually made sense, but that time is long gone. I would criticize any country that carries on absurd environmental or human rights policies, not picking unfairly on Canada. I spend most of my tourist dollars in Canada, partly to express my disatisfaction with U.S. policies, but mostly because I just like Canada.

If 150 people is the correct number of seal hunters affected, then $20 million over six years corresponds to about $22K per person yearly. Why not take the money and create sustainable jobs, invest in the future not perpetuate unsustainable practices of the past.

What an out of touch cream puff!!! You are an insiped worthless writer of sentimental crap. You never lift a finger for anything worthwhile. HOW CAN ANYONE CARE MORE ABOUT SEALS than humans!


Go take your Tofu treats and shove them up you butt.

Chicago demo

For a board that insults politicians day and night 24/7.


My anger is all at Paul. All I am trying to do is convince that this 'story' is a distraction, much like Fox 'war on christmas'.


I love all democrats and liberals. I really do. If Paul posts here I will be much more polite.

All I saw was a patently absurd attack on Paul McCartney that is at odds with objective reality.

goodbye.

Like I give a damn.

Enjoy your delusions. I'll send the gift of logic, if you should ever decide you have a need for it.

You're accusing Paul of writing sentimental music because you don't agree with his views on sealing? And you say he doesn't care about people in Iraq? One - you don't know of his views on other things. You just don't. Two - this is ONE important issue, not the ONLY one, as you seem to imply.

Look at his music. Its about nothing. It gotten more and more about silly nothing. He is silly pretty boy with no brains that I can detect. He wastes my time.


Look at Lennons music. Look at Harrison's music. They were revolutionaries. And now I can totally see why Lennon left him. Ono saved John's soul and tapped into his talent. Paul would have never been even known without him. Paul was a front man and John was the main talent. I am glad Ono is trying to strip his authorship on some of the songs. Its obvious he was totally leeching on the the master in the group.

Paul was about feeling good and being popular. Pauls fans are similar. I cannot think of a SINGLE song he wrotethat deals with any topic that isn't beourgious crap. His lyrics are sing song nursury rhymes. He is not a serious person and he proves it every time he opens his mouth. He can't have it both ways. Wanna get into politics, Paul? Prepare to be pilloried.


O Blah DI O Blah DO

and you are entitled to your opinion.

I wonder why you keep posting in this thread? It is about the seal slaughter, not about which was the better Beatle.

This thread is not about his music. Though, sure you are not selling out concerts night after night.

It is about a stand he took on an issue that almost 80% of Americans care about, though you may not.

Perhaps you should start a thread on his music.

is totally reflected in his music.

There is so much more to the Democratic Underground than Seals.


Still I respect your right to defend the seal. Welcome to DU!


When I lived in Eureka CaL, loved to take my dog to the ocean and the seals would always play with my dog. They would always try to make her swim out too far and I was scared a couple times. Seals are great, they are very smart and human like. I do love them and am saddened some are killed.

Blackbird - Beatles
Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise.

Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these sunken eyes and learn to see
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to be free.

Blackbird fly blackbird fly
Into the light of the dark black night.

Blackbird fly blackbird fly
Into the light of the dark black night.

Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise
You were only waiting for this moment to arise
You were only waiting for this moment to arise.

a nice schoolboy poem, overrated. About civil rights? You'd never know it. Beatles stole a ton from Chuck Berry and never paid him at all.

Tambourine man meant drug dealer. Remember that song by The Byrds? How else could controversial things get air play in the 60's? Vanilla flavoring.

As far as things that matter, why does the land mine effort not get a positive response from you?

there are evils like Paul McCartney to stomp out. :sarcasm:

He is a risk averse, people pleaser and that's the truth! (raspberry)

Is he bad? no. He's just not very good. What has he done except ride on his laurels and surround himself with sychophants. Ever listen to Terry Hemerat on WXRT in Chicago, she does interviews with him all the time. I think I know him well after 20 years of 'breakfast with the Beatles on Sunday AM's. Nice pretty songs. The opposite of say, The Clash. (who some people think suck musically, and maybe they do, but I love them for the reasons I hate McArtney)

firstly, paul has always been saccharine. the sweet to counter lennon's bitters, if you will. but to say his music is bourgeois just because it's not issue-driven is pretty dumb. john had a fair amount of self-indulgence in his solo stuff. i prefer john and george to paul but come on, he's paul frigging mccartney.

second, there are enough critics currently stoking the iraq fires w/o an international superstar piling on. paul by his name is able to shine a light on something that he thinks merits attention. why is that wrong?

third, i cannot believe i'm reading defense of baby-seal-clubbing on DU. are you guys for real?

Deer? my god, the poor starving deer of illinois. Culling by rangers is basic to keeping the herd healthy. From the 'informed' posts (people who live there and are familiar with the 'science' of this), unless culling happens, the resulting overpopulation will be unsustainable.

Lets' actually concentrate on species that are on the brink of extinction and not based on 'cuteness'. Let's trust responsible, eco-freindly countries like Canada, after all its thier country, their land, in fact its their seals. The cute beatle's concern for the cute seal is cute but to say its 'saving' anything is delusional and wrong.

respond to the steaming pile of crap you left that demonstrates that your knowledge of the Beatles is as woefully inadequate as your knowledge of anything else you've written about in this thread, but I can't let this one slide.

One thing I can guarantee is that I have forgotten more about ecology than you will ever know, and what you've just posted is garbage. Big surprise, I know, but there you have it. There is a world of difference between deer in Illinois and seals in the Canadian maritime provinces. I hope that is simple enough for you to understand. Probably not, though, because you're still going to believe that you're right and that those of us equipped with the facts of the matter are wrong. Must be nice.

You are right. Chic Dem has no grasp of the facts. If you care about the slaughter, best put your efforts elsewhere. Debating him is a waste of precious energy.