Poll shows divide on question of torture (The World Opposes Bush)

WASHINGTON - Most people in eight countries that are American allies don't want the United States conducting secret interrogations of terror suspects on their soil - a sensitive question after recent reports of secret prisons run by the CIA in eastern Europe.

About two-thirds of the people living in Canada, Mexico, South Korea and Spain said they would oppose allowing the U.S. to secretly interrogate terror suspects in their countries. Almost that many in Britain, France, Germany and Italy said they feel the same way. Almost two-thirds in the United States support such interrogations in the U.S. by their own government.

Almost four in 10, 38 percent, in the United States said they thought torture could be justified at least sometimes. About one-fourth said it could be justified rarely, and 36 percent said it could never be justified.

They were conducted between Nov. 15 and Nov. 28. Each poll had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/13339069.htm

work to do. Frankly I don't think those numbers would look all that much different over here, either. Frightening.

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Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who is traveling in Europe this week....shared intelligence with its allies that has "helped protect European countries from attack, saving European lives."

As one 'o them vilthy uropeans, I'd like to say this, with conviction and whole my heart:

I Would Rather Be Blown To A 1000 Smithereens Than To See The State Protect Me Against Terrorism By Resorting To Terrorist And Inhumane Methods Like Torture.

It is extremely disturbing that such a great percentage of people apparantly think _anything_ is justified just so they have their petty little (fictional) freedom. In my humble opinion, those people ethically and morally equivalent to those terrorist and murderers the state supposedly protects us against

:hi:

:hi:

What a disgusting evil bag of crap!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

So I have to presume that there is something wrong with this poll. And there is certainly something wrong with how it is summed up in this article.

The statement in paragraph 2 is contradicted by paragraph 3.

Para 2: "Almost two-thirds in the United States support such interrogations in the U.S. by their own government.

Para 3: "...38 percent...said they thought torture could be justified at least sometimes. About one-fourth said it could be justified rarely, and 36 percent said it could never be justified."

36%: Never justified
25%: Rarely justified
= 61%

To say that those polled "SUPPORT such interrogations" (2/3rds!) is not the same thing as saying that some think it might be "justified" "at least sometimes" (38%) or could "rarely" be "justified" (25%). Adding these two very iffy "justified's" together (2/3rds) does NOT create "support" for a torture policy. Maybe I'm quibbling here, but, if someone asked me if something is "justified," and I said, "Maybe," that does NOT mean that I "SUPPORT" it! "Justified" means ok, maybe in some extreme circumstances, I might forgive breaking the law. "Support" means that I advocate the policy! Paragraph 3 does not support the paragraph 2 statement about Americans, who mostly (61% in this poll) DON'T "support" a policy of torture.

Also, what does "rarely justified" mean? Probably something like a nuclear bomb set to go off in a city, and law enforcement has custody of someone whom they think knows where it is. Most people would probably look the other way, or later forgive, torture in that circumstance--but still not approve of it GENERALLY, and certainly NOT the RANDOM torture of hundreds of "innocent until proven guilty" "enemy combatants"--with piles of naked bodies, dogs threatening prisoners, and torture DEATHS that the Bush junta is conducting in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan and UNDISCLOSED LOCATIONS in middle Europe. How was the question put to those being polled?

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Anyway, here's what all other polls say:

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Most Americans Oppose Torture Techniques

Analysis (ABC News)
By David Morris and Gary Langer

May 27, 2004— Americans by nearly 2-to-1 oppose torturing terrorism suspects — but half believe the U.S. government, as a matter of policy, is doing it anyway. And even more think the government is employing physical abuse that falls short of torture in some cases.

Given pro and con arguments, 63 percent in an ABC News/Washington Post poll say torture is never acceptable, even when other methods fail and authorities believe the suspect has information that could prevent terrorist attacks. Thirty-five percent say torture is acceptable in some such cases. (MORE)

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Polls/torture_poll_040527.html
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American poll shows most reject torture

By Richard Morin, Claudia Deane
Washington
May 29, 2004

Most Americans reject torture as a technique to force suspected terrorists to answer questions about possible attacks, a Washington Post-ABC News poll has found.

But they are divided on whether less harsh forms of physical abuse should be allowed to compel unco-operative suspects to reveal information that could save lives.

More than six in 10 - 63 per cent - of the public say torture is never acceptable, even in cases in which a suspect is believed to have knowledge of an upcoming terrorist attack. Slightly more than one in three say torture can be used in some cases. (MORE)

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/05/28/1085641709708.html?from=storyrhs&oneclick=true

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Public Opinion on Torture, the Iraq War, and Civil Liberties, New findings from Retro Poll

BERKELEY -- May 5, 2005 -- In a series of polls by Retro Poll 72-89 percent of the American public consistently opposed the use of torture by the U.S. government. A recent poll by the Gallup organization confirmed these results....// Opposition to lengthy detentions without trial remained strong (75 percent) as did support for international prosecution of war crimes (73 percent). (MORE)

http://www.commondreams.org/news2005/0505-14.htm

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U.S. Public Found to Reject Detainee Torture and Coercion

Published on Friday, July 23, 2004 by OneWorld.net
by Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON - Amid new reports of abuses by U.S. soldiers of Iraqi and other detainees, a major survey of U.S. public attitudes shows strong opposition to torture and many of the other more-coercive methods that were authorized under some circumstances by Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld and used against prisoners held by U.S. forces.

The survey, conducted by the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA), found that 66 percent of the U.S. believe that "governments should never use physical torture" and that 60 percent believe that all captured individuals should have the right to appeal their status to a neutral judge, even if they are not conventional soldiers as defined by the Geneva Conventions.

Seventy-seven percent of respondents said a soldier should have the right to refuse to follow an order if he or she believes that it was a violation of international law. (MORE)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0723-03.htm

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(Four out of Five Americans oppose torture...see**) (and some other interesting opinions)

Retro Poll May 11, 2004

Findings from a new national poll show support for impeachment, growing opposition to war on terrorism.

Berkeley--Reporting from an ongoing survey of public knowledge and opinion, Berkeley based NGO Retro Poll released startling results suggesting that 39% of Americans favor impeachment of President Bush. The poll, taken between April 19 and May 5 asked whether people believe that misleading Congress and the Public on weapons of mass destruction to take the country to war is grounds to impeach the President (39% said yes, 40% said no). On whether the U.S. should have invaded Iraq the poll results are consistent with findings of Gallup and other major polls (48% said yes).

Other surprising findings were that almost half of respondents (46%) favor an independent investigation of the U.S. role in the overthrow of Haiti's democratically elected president, Juan Bertrand Aristide, and 57% favor a national moratorium on the death penalty because of the procedural problems that have put many innocent people on death row (112 released so far). **Four out of five Americans also repudiate the use of torture.** (MORE)

http://www.retropoll.org/press_release_poll04.htm

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(And for a state view...)

(Arizonans) 55% support ban on torture, poll says

Robbie Sherwood
The Arizona Republic
Nov. 23, 2005 12:00 AM

A KAET-TV poll released Tuesday said a majority of Arizonans, 55 percent, support proposed federal legislation that would ban the use of torture against terrorists, even if there is reason to believe they may have information that could save American lives. (MORE)

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/1123poll23.html

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Two thirds of America is not pro rendition and torture.

Poll: Most in U.S, Britain, France and S. Korea say torture OK, at least in rare instances

By Will Lester
ASSOCIATED PRESS

12:44 p.m. December 6, 2005

WASHINGTON – Most Americans and a majority of people in Britain, France and South Korea say torturing terrorism suspects is justified at least in rare instances, according to AP-Ipsos polling.

(snip)

The polling, in the United States and eight of its closest allies, found that in Canada, Mexico and Germany people are divided on whether torture is ever justified. Most people opposed torture under any circumstances in Spain and Italy.

(snip)

In America, 61 percent of those surveyed agreed torture is justified at least on rare occasions. Almost nine in 10 in South Korea and just over half in France and Britain felt that way.

(snip)


Find this article at:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20051206-1244-torture-appoll.html

In America, 61 percent of those surveyed agreed torture is justified at least on rare occasions.

... that can make me think the United States doesn't even deserve to continue as a nation.

Yes, tell me all about the stacked polling, bogus sampling, and all that -- but the headline we see here is essentially what's going to be in hundreds of newspapers tomorrow, and the Republican Noise Machine will have won another skirmish in its talking-points war.

Where is the message that torture is NOT OK -- and why aren't we shouting it from every last rooftop?

not that such a thing is even REMOTELY in the real of possibility for me at any point in the future I can envision. No capital, and no skills they seem to want, and neatly pinned at every side to prevent any real way to change that.

Yeah, I know, I've said that if all of us who were like-minded left they'd have won. Maybe it's my empty prescription vial, or the endless stack of bills, or the no-good-news, but I'm increasingly sure they've won already, even if it IS by flatly cheating.

Though I suppose no one can know the future; if I ever see a chance, I'm jumping. If over half of the people here are clearly opposed to what I was told America was supposed to stand for then I want no part of it. Sick of tilting at windmills.

...after WWII, unmarked enemy combatants were lined up and shot. I say we find all the would-be car/roadside bombers and execute them. I believe if we make an example of people who try to set off roadside bombs, terrorists will think twice about attacking our troops. Thus reducing coalition casulties.


mmmmm...kool aid is good....

How do you feel about the use of torture against suspected terrorists to obtain information about terrorism
activities? Can that …?

U.S. Canada Mexico S. Korea
Often be justified ................................ 11 9 9 6
Sometimes be justified ........................ 27 19 22 47
Rarely be justified................................ 23 21 18 33
Never be justified ................................ 36 49 40 10
Not sure............................................. 3 2 11 4
France Germany Italy Spain U.K.
Often be justified ................................ 12 8 9 7 9
Sometimes be justified ........................ 20 22 14 14 21
Rarely be justified................................ 25 20 14 16 21
Never be justified ................................ 40 48 60 54 48
Not sure............................................. 3 2 3 9 1

advocate torture - such as, 'In order to save your ten-year old daughter from being beaten and then tossed off a cliff by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, would you allow al-Zarqawi to be tortured, to force him to reveal the location of the cliff and to get him to stop beating her?' Of course!

But, the premise is absurd. Sheer frustration would likely cause any interrogator to go 'over the line' in an *extreme* case. But, torture should not be legitimated and/or legalized.

Lori Price

First, they discuss 'feeling' rather than right and wrong.
Second, no follow-up demonstrating that information obtained by torture is often innacurate and unreliable.
Finally, the answer choices given are an odd number. That typically, if you want to remain "neutral" you can choose the middle option. Good polls use even numbers so the respondent has to choose sides.

In this case, the choices are

1. Often justified
2. Sometimes justified
3. Rarely justified
4. Never justified
5. Not sure.

With these options, the respondent has 4 chances to endorse some kind of torture or stay neutral, while there is only ONE chance to oppose torture (no. 4). Not surprisingly, the largest single percentage of respondents said torture is NEVER justified. But, someone who is uncertain has many different possible ways to alleviate their guilt or incertainty. They can say often, sometimes, rarely, or not sure.

God, I hate pollsters. They take good science and distort it deliberately.

Most Americans and a majority of people in Britain, France and South Korea say torturing terrorism suspects is justified at least in rare instances, according to AP-Ipsos polling.

The United States has drawn criticism from human rights groups and many governments, especially in Europe, for its treatment of terror suspects. President Bush and other top officials have said the U.S. does not torture, but some suspects in American custody have alleged they were victims of severe mistreatment.

The polling, in the United States and eight of its closest allies, found that in Canada, Mexico and Germany people are divided on whether torture is ever justified. Most people opposed torture under any circumstances in Spain and Italy.

.......

In America, 61 percent of those surveyed agreed torture is justified at least on rare occasions. Almost nine in 10 in South Korea and just over half in France and Britain felt that way.



http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/13344617.htm

... is probably what most people imagine. Something like the 24-scenario.

The thing is, while that may work in a theory, it NEVER HAPPENS in REAL LIFE. And it isn't going to. Try to construct a realistic scenario involving somebody in U.S. custody knowing exactly where a nuclear weapon is about to go off. It just isn't going to happen.

In the real world, torture is just immoral and there's no practical benefit to it either - it doesn't get good intelligence (which is why many former and current CIA officials oppose it) and people will say whatever the hell they can to make it stop. It's useless and sadistic. And while it may be philosophically defensible in a 24-type scenario, that isn't going to happen. And if it did, nobody would be prosecuted just out of common-sense.

:sarcasm:

it's unrealistic.

All the pukes I've talked to about the subject always say "If you KNEW the person could tell you about a bomb which was about to kill a school full of kids, would you use torture?"

The answer is still no in my case, but it's an unrealistic scenario...a perfect storm for the pro-torturers to get a yes answer out of most moderates.

Conventions when precious little Jessica Lynch was being "held".

But that's only for Americans, I guess.

between what may be a bad poll (poor questions, poor choices, stacked) and what the general range of polls is saying (Americans very opposed to torture). Also, even in this poll, you have 36% of Americans saying NEVER torture plus 23% of American saying torture is only RARELY justified (and note, they don't have the option of saying legal or illegal, or what should the general policy be?, or what circumstances?). This adds up to 58% saying NEVER or RARELY (i.e., unusual circumstances.) 58% of Americans say "Never or almost never torture." That should have been the headline. Or, "Americans mostly agree with the world on torture--never, or almost never, is it justified." Instead, they combine the "rarely's" with the "yes, it's justified's."

As I said, the article's text is really off base.

There is nothing that fills me more with revulsion and rage than this ENTIRELY UNNECESSARY violation of the heart and soul of America's ethical, justice-loving, law-abiding, peace-loving majority. What comes to me as an image is a child molester who is not satisfied with raping a child, but also wants to sully and degrade the child, to make her feel dirty, to compromise her sense of integrity and morality.

I often think of the young military lawyers I read about, who had devoted themselves to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (which incorporates the Geneva Conventions), and had based their careers on defending and enforcing it, and who fought long and hard against the Bushites' desire to torture people, and place them in piles of naked bodies, and set dogs upon them, and waterboard them, and beat them to death. How their souls must have been seered by this! And I also think of those who could not retain their integrity under the kind of pressure the Bushites have put on people--who compromised, who broke law and conscience, and now have to live with themselves.

We now find out that they have secret prisons, where we have no idea what George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Condoleeza Rice are doing to people, or who they are doing it to, or why. Nameless prisoners in some dark dungeon somewhere.

They want to break our spirit, as a people. To sully our ideals. To crap upon everything we hold dear.

It is the most unforgivable thing they've done--to rob people of their souls is worse than killing them.