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Thom Little Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:20 AM
Original message
Bush Likens Iraqi Action to Transition in '40's Japan
President Bush suggested Friday that history will vindicate his decision to invade Iraq, saying he believed that a half century from now, it will be regarded as important a transition for the world as the democratization of Japan was after World War II.

"I'm absolutely convinced that some day, 50 or 60 years from now, an American president will be speaking to an audience saying, 'Thank goodness a generation of Americans rose to the challenge and helped people be liberated from tyranny,' " Mr. Bush said. " 'Democracy spread and the world is more peaceful for it.' "

.......

"We have got a strategy for victory and we'll see that strategy through," he said, drawing on lines from recent policy speeches. "We will defeat the terrorists in Iraq. We will not let Al Qaeda take a stronghold - get a stronghold in Iraq. We'll help this country develop a democracy, which will send a powerful signal to people in Damascus and Tehran."

.......

"It may sound too simple, but this is a comparison the president believes in deeply," one of his senior aides said when Mr. Bush was in Asia, declining to be quoted by name in discussing the president's thinking. "It's the argument he knows his presidency will be judged by."



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/10/national/10bush.html
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. I have serious doubts about his sanity.
I could elaborate, but his words speak for themselves. Both he and his writer are insane.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Pretty well what I was thinking too.
History will vindicate me in 60 years.
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Bush stupidly thinks that people actually
forecast into the future.

The facts are in: most Americans don't care what happens 50 or 60 years in the future. The Yankees are firmily ensconced in the HERE AND NOW. This is why conservation is such a tough concept. And the environment.

People just don't care, George.

Bush is just desperate, grasping at straws. He thinks this will do the trick. If he only had decent advisors!
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
21. I think we do care
about the future, though not as much as we should or at least not as many as should.

As someone who cares about the future I think he is deluding himself. I am ashamed at what history will think of this time.
With his thinking there are at least a dozen countries we should promptly invade.

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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. yep, agreed.
bonkers. :crazy:

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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. Yeah, I've been thinking he's batsh1t crazy since the summer.
When he had to admit that he bore responsibility for the Katrina response, he couldn't even look at the cameras or reporters.

I sincerely hope the Secret Service has a protocol for a crazy, drunken president who's trying to launch the nukes.
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. Again, grandiose illusions. Total ignorance of cultural & historical
backgrounds.
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. it's more like 1930's POLAND -an army invaded and took over- except
now the occupied are fighting back and intend to retake their country.

and yep- Baybee Boosh didn't even know world geography at all before he stole office...
The first time he ever left this country was his China trip after he started playing pretend president.
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suegeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. Actually as a boy he went to Scotland
And lived on a sheep farm with some CIA connected Scottish goon and his son, who is now an oil mafia capo. The Gammel Family?
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. Hmm.. didn't Iran just have elections?
They voted for someone we don't like, though, so, I guess that means they're not democratic....

Can't say that Ahmadinejad has got all his oars in the water, but his people voted for him.

When the creation of puppet states in the image of the US is defined by Bush as "spreading democracy," I doubt that fifty or sixty years from now that historians will find Bush's take on the situation accurate.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. How about 'Nam in 1973?
The "V" word makes nary an appearance in Georgie's poetic waxings.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. Name one petty deluded tyrant who didn't use that same argument.
History will remember me kindly, one day they will thank me, I'm going to hold my breath until I get my way, you love Jebbie more than me...

It would only be sad if Bush didn't have access to nuclear weapons.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
8. Well he is all wrong on that one folks..........
The U.S. never shoveled money into Japan after the war, not one American business was involved. There was no "Marshall Plan" like Europe had. The Japanese did it themselves, using their own initiative. The industrialists and bankers got together to plan for an economy that emulated the U.S. They focused on cheaply produced goods and items requiring technical expertise. Most capital was loaned to the various business from foreign nations. They made steady progress and filled a niche in the market (not unlike China has done). The country evolved politically under the military occupation, with free elections of an assembly and women were given the right to vote.

To say Japan & Iraq will be similar is wrong. The U.S. has dumped billions (277) into Iraq. There are more US companies doing business there, essentially sucking out all the profits for their own interests. There was some visible success in the street merchants which began selling goods & electronics. They themselves were making the profits while trying to meet demand for cheap goods or services. Had we offered more loans and incentives to Iraqi's, we might have staved off a lot of the unrest. Instead of blaming Americans and its contractors for failed infrastructure improvements, Iraqi's would be the masters of their own fate. The most important asset oil still cannot be gotten to market in an efficient manner to provide revenue. American dollars are artificially holding up the economy there now as it would surely collapse because of our failure to have a plan at the end of hostilities.

Bush's words have a hollow ring, "We have got a strategy for victory and we'll see that strategy through," we had the victory already but we can do nothing to bring the country together for peace. Within 5 yrs of the defeat of Japan it was on good economic footing. Bush has squander so much in lives, blood & money and has got nothing much to show for in return. If with all that has been spent we still can't get the electric & water working as efficient as it did pre-war, what else can we offer the Iraqi people.
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badgervan Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Not To Worry...
No need to worry, folks - remember, God spoke to george, and we just have to let Him do His will through our country's saviour, mr. mandate himself. The chosen one - just ask him.
I swear, the United States of America is now a cult.
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section321 Donating Member (632 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Japan is so socially different from Iraq that the comparison is ludacris.
The Japanese are a very homogeneous social group. Their culture is heavily influenced by China, but they are very different from the Chinese. The Japanese mindset is much more group oriented and they tend to work together for the common good. The Japanese were not blowing each other up for political advantage after WWII. They were following their new government and working together to rebuild their country.

Iraq is an artifical boundary established by the British in the 1920's that contains three distinct social groups (the Sunnis, the Shiites, and the Kurds). Neither group has much, if any, interest in helping the others.

As usual, George has no clue, and no frame of reference, for the BS he spews.
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. ...but it SOUNDS so good! (sarcasm) eom
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. Japan's defeat was a worldwide effort,
not an illegal, unilateral invasion condemned by the world community.

Prince Goergie is preaching to the feeble-minded freepers (apparently about 37% of this Nation) who suck this stuff up.


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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. I'm waiting to see who liberates us from this chimp's reign of terror.
--but this is a comparison the president believes in deeply--

There they go showing the jerkoff that WWII coloring book again. It was not too long ago the POS was attempting to connect himself to Churchill.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
11. Minus MacArthur & women's rights written into the new constitution
>Sigh< Maybe he wants to compare Shock and Awe to Hiroshima -- or not.

Where Bush and his speechwriters regrettably have it right is their confidence in the abysmal historical illiteracy of the average American citizen. Alas.

Hekate
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
14. This from the idgit who earlier said, "History? We'll all be dead" The
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 09:57 AM by 54anickel
man is delusional, a freakin' nutcase.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. seems that bush's claims that "Clinton was just working for
his legacy" per ME peace talks... was, even back then, a clear case of... PROJECTION.

Clearly we have a megalomaniac in the WH.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
17. One problem with their WW II analogies.
We didn't start the war so we could overthrow countries to put military bases in them to rule the world. Our policies of pre-emptive war and torture camps makes us more like the Japanese and Germans of WW II than the other way around.
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
18. It's not at all accurate to claim the situation is analogous to Japan.
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 10:51 AM by Wordie
Here's some quotes from an article from a report published on Hardblogger, by Rick Francona, to illustrate the point.

(Note that Francona believes that because of the makeup of the insurgent forces that if the US were to withdraw, the region would immediately descend into civil war and chaos. That much seems correct, but he believes that's also the reason we should remain, which is another topic entirely. I personally am not convinced by his argument, as it could be that we would remain in Iraq indefinitely, on the basis of it. Nevertheless, his analysis of the composition of the insurgency is applicable here, and exposes the fallacy of the idea of a similarity between Iraq and Japan, which was an homogenous culture with a high degree of internal organization at the time of WWII. In the article, Francona is actually contrasting the Iraq situation with that of our war with Vietnam. The differences he outlines apply to Bush's attempt to compare Iraq with Japan, just more so.)

• December 8, 2005 | 4:12 p.m. ET

American withdrawal and the insurgency (Rick Francona)

(In response to calls for an American troop withdrawal) That might make sense if we were dealing with a united Iraqi nationalist or resistance movement. The reality on the ground on Iraq is quite different -- the insurgency in Iraq is not a monolithic or even unified group. Many are trying to draw parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, but the two situations are markedly different. In Vietnam, you had the Viet Cong backed by the North Vietnamese army. They were allied and united in the same cause -- their goal was the same. They had a common vision for the country after the exit of the Americans. This is not the case in Iraq.

The insurgency in Iraq comprises disparate elements, each with its own goals and tactics. These elements may have a temporary alliance with each other -- the Middle Eastern adage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" comes to mind - but in the end, their goals are incompatible. Do they all want the Americans/coalition forces to leave? Absolutely. Once they are gone, will the elements of the insurgency then together work out the future of Iraq? Doubtful. If they are successful and cause the Americans to leave, then they will have to deal with each other's opposing positions. However, their joint immediate goal is to cause an American withdrawal.

After the withdrawal, the real power struggle in Iraq will begin. The two major elements of the insurgency are the former regime elements and the foreign fighters of Al-Qa'idah Ar-Rafidayn, the Al-Qa'idah affiliated group led by Abu Mus'ab Az-Zarqawi. Both want the Americans (and coalition) out of Iraq, but for different reasons. The former regime elements, the Sunnis who were driven from power by the American-led invasion of 2003, want to reassert their control over the country, to regain what they believe their rightful position. Withdrawal of American troops will not lessen their attacks. They will refocus their efforts on the new Iraqi government, a government they regard as illegitimate and composed of Shi'a and Kurds that mean to keep them from exercising the power they once did. The level of violence will likely increase with the removal of American forces, not decrease.

The Az-Zarqawi group, however, is not interested in the reinstatement of the secular, socialist Ba'th regime. They have been vocal in their calls for the establishment of a fundamentalist Islamic state, a caliphate somewhat akin to the former Taliban state in Afghanistan. Should American forces withdraw, the Az-Zarqawi group will increase their attacks on the new Iraqi government, and likely continue their attacks on the Shi'a as well...


As I mentioned, I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions Francona draws, but the analysis why the situation in Iraq is substantially different than that we found in Vietnam, and by extension Japan, does refute Bush's recent statements quite well.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
22. LIke he knows what that means
"I read a book once. Actually I had someone read it for me. Japan. Marshall Tahito. Bad. Nukular"
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. LOL, that was my first thought.
He is clueless about this country's history.

It's reached the point he can hardly read the scripts.
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madmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
23. This analogy is so wrong on so many levels
Japan's emperor was left in place, called for surrender, and as a result no insurgency occurred
We went easy on their war criminals
Their was no comparable "de-baathification"
Japan was a homogenous people
Japan had attacked us and we crushed them in response
McArthur was an extremely effective and competent administrator

None of these things apply to Iraq.
Bush and his flunkies analysis on this issue is strictly for the consumption of the lowest common denominator and I do not even see how even they are buying this.

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pschoeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
24. From a guy, who thought Japan had been our ally for over a hundred years
Pretty funny stuff

"My trip to Asia begins here in Japan for an important reason. It begins here because for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific." —George W. Bush, who apparently forgot about a little something called World War II, Tokyo, Feb. 18, 2002
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
25. what a big head the man has.
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
27. I don't recall reading about the Japanese
blowing themselves and the occupiers up, nor shooting american soldiers occupying their country. Maybe I was sick when the class covered that.
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suegeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
28. Put a sock in it George
"It may sound too simple, but this is a comparison the president believes in deeply," one of his senior aides said when Mr. Bush was in Asia, declining to be quoted by name in discussing the president's thinking. "It's the argument he knows his presidency will be judged by."

Why would this senior aid decline to be quoted by name, what a whimp.

I believe deeply in the comparison that September 11, 2001 = Reichstag fire.
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raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
30. Who told him about '40's Japan?
He didn't know there was a Japan until 2001.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. The Barbara I am sure.
Scarey, but several people have written that Bush is getting limited advice.

I suppose Barbara is feeding him no end of crap about the glory days of America.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
31. He's almost right - this time the US is following Hitler and Tojo.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
33. how much longer is * going to pretend he is re-fighting WWII?
I swear, he must have some kind of complex, because his dad was a WWII vet, and he just has to go him one better. All those Saddam/Hitler comparisons, and now this.

I've talked to people who were in those countries in the 1940s, and while times were tough, there weren't massive numbers of insurgent attacks and car bombs going off, more than 2 years after the war ended.

For a history major, Bush obviously didn't learn a single thing about the dangers of bogus historical comparisons.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
35. junior's very confused about "time" "history" and his..his
his...

Self Importance
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. He thinks he's Roosevelt and/or Truman again
What a dunce.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
37. The only reason tha worked was Macarthur, and we have no one
close to his prowess, despite his abbhorent political views.
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