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dolo amber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:04 AM
Original message
Surveillance Video Shows Alpizar Hours Before Shooting
*snip*

MIAMI -- A surveillance video released Friday shows Rigoberto Alpizar at the airport in Quito, Ecuador, just hours before he was shot by air marshals after threatening to have a bomb on American Airlines Flight 924 Wednesday.

The tape clearly shows Alpizar acting unstable and aggressive at the airport in Quito, NBC 6's Tom Llamas reported.

*snip*

"She told us her husband was diagnosed as being bipolar approximately 10 to 12 years ago. He hadn't been taking his medication," Miami-Dade Police Chief Willie Marshall said Thursday.



http://www.nbc6.net/news/5505680/detail.html
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. ''after threatening to have a bomb''
so far no one has heard him ''threaten'' to have a bomb that i know of.

is there something new?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. The "bomb" story is a blatant lie by the FAMS
I even question the interpretation of this "new video" which is contradicted by what some passengers have said.

The parallels to the shooting of the Brazilian Jean Charles de Menenzes by SAS in a London tube are very striking.

The one common denominator in both incidents is that the men had brown skin. This means that any Latino male is in danger of being taken for an Arab by American and UK security forces. Back where I come from this is called racism!
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. oh -- i'm with you indiana.
for my two cents -- this was going to happen after 9-11 -- the way we pumped up the population and wrapped our dead in ''flags''.


someone will probably light me on fire for that.
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dolo amber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I actually saw the vid on one of the morning shows
I was flipping channels, so I'm not sure which one...I think it was GMA but I don't see a link on their site...Anyway...

He was clearly agitated, shoving another passenger in line several times, waving his arms about, etc.

Not saying it means anything specific, just that there's really no *interpretation* to question. I'll keep looking for a link. :hi:
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. I've seen just plain idiots at many airports
agitated and aggressive for circumstantial reasons, like a delayed flight, cancelled flight, rude airline employees, etc.

Besides, I'm not a believer in the veracity of supposed videos presented after the fact. Like, um, certain alleged ppl entering a New England airport early one Sept. morn.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
66. That's right.
I worry about all my male cousins. :scared:
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. teach them to knit..
or crochet, or do needlepoint while they wait for flights...
(takes the edge off a 'scary' looking guy)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Or maybe I should make em all shirts out of American flags
and get them into huge gold cross necklace drag.

Scary times.
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. Why didn't the other passengers hear him say he had a bomb?
In other words he was a suicide bomber, I hardly think so.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. He grabbed a women agressively at the airport
As a female he would have scared me and people were obviously backing away from him and giving him a wide berth. However, if he was acting that aggressively I'm kind of surprised he wasn't stopped before getting on the airplane also its unlikely a terrorist would want to draw that much attention to himself. I'll wait on the outcome of the investigation but whatever happened its clearly a tragedy.
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Milspec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. I sw the film this morning
And wonder why the hell he was allowed on the plane in the first place. I agree clearly a tragedy
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
77. So they pat down six year olds
strip search grandmas and make everyone take off their shoes, but they let this guy on not one but two planes and through customs. What is wrong with this picture?

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soda Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
100. a thought
I hope she wasn´t a fed air marshal
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. What on Earth was his wife thinking? She knows he hasn't taken
his meds. Yet, he is flying all over the world, bipolar and no meds. Acting up crazy all the way. It was an accident waiting to happen.
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. That's my big question
I'm not blaming her but it's clear she knew he was off his meds. Seems she could have forced the issue with her husband and told him to take his meds or they weren't going anywhere.

Telling everyone after the fact didn't do her husband much good.

Mz Pip:dem:
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. how do you know they had any meds?!
Perhaps she wanted to get him home to get him back onto meds.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I am sorry,but a bi-polar person shouldn't be flying all over the
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 12:46 PM by lizzy
world without taking his meds with him. If they didn't take enough meds with them, knowing they were going abroad, that's extremely irresponsible of them and doesn't change anything.
Hey, any sick person shouldn't be going anywhere without taking enough meds to last. If this guy was diabetic, and died because he hasn't taken enough insulin with him, that would be a similar thing.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. That doesn't give the Feds the right to execute people that are ill
Let's face it, Alpizar was summarily executed by federal agents with shoot-to-kill orders. We are more in danger of being killed by a FAMS agent than by a terrorist!
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
42. Well, obviously they were given the right to shoot anyone if they
feel threatened. Which they did. Is it any surprise this had happened? Not to me, I was always against having armed marshals on the plane. They are not going to shoot the terrorist, because terrorist most likely won't act in a way to attract so much attention to himself. And if somebody manages to bring a bomb on board, they will most likely quietly detonate it, without running up and down and screaming "i got a bomb". So, who are the marshals going to shoot?
Some poor crazy guy, that's who.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. Alpizar was not even on the plane when he was shot several times
The Latin American press is reporting that Alpizar was riddled with bullets.

The Brazilian Menenzes was shot in a London subway 7 times even though he was already under restraints by a police officer.

Something is wrong in here!
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
47. Thank you.
I was reading down this thread hoping someone sane would post.

Just because people don't take their medication does not mean they should be summarily executed.

FEAR has so infiltrated the public that they turn on their own at any sign of danger. FEAR is what is driving all of this.
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #47
73. Maple Street.
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 07:51 PM by NYC
Your post:

...FEAR has so infiltrated the public that they turn on their own at any sign of danger...

reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode about Maple St. I don't remember the name of it.

Edit: I searched.

The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street
Writer: Rod Serling
Director: Ron Winston

A mysterious power failure causes paranoid suburban residents to suspect one another of being disguised creatures from outer space.
CAST: Claude Akins, Jack Weston, Barry Atwater, Jan Handzlik, Burt Metcalfe, Mary Gregory, Anne Barton, Lea Waggner, Ben Erway, Lyn Guild, Sheldon Allman, William Walsh.

http://www.scifi.com/twilightzone/episodes/
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #73
106. To be expected from Serling -- in some senses, a genius.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
69. People decompensate even ON their medication.
For lots of families - including ours - it's a constant negotiation with the med. Her choices were probably between rotten and rottener. That poor woman.

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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
76. What do you know about people with bipolar?
A lot of bipolars aren't on meds- and a lot have adverse reactions to meds that make them agitated or prone to panic attacks.

In hindsight, yeah- would have been nice to at least have some benzos like ativan along- but just saying that omeone with bipolar shouldn't be flying without meds is pretty blanket statement.

Not to mention a totally unjustified one.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. What if meds were lost, stolen or more likely flushed down the drain?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
97. She was at the airport, on US soil. If her husband was having
a heart attack, and his medications were lost, would you suggest she still should have dragged him on the plane, without asking for help?
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. do you have experience forcing an adult to be medicated?
it's not easy. bipolar people can be VERY strong willed. the man was an adult, a mentally ill adult, but an adult nonetheless. she is NOT RESPONSIBLE for his actions!

accident waiting to happen? the air marhsall(s) did not accidentally pull the trigger a half dozen times.

funny too, how everybody mentions him being off his meds, yet never stop to consider that perhaps neither him nor his wife had any choice in the matter of whether he was able to take his meds. perhaps there had been an issue at some point during their trip in a foreign country, perhaps police or airport security, or customs confiscated his meds? maybe they got stolen? who says he CHOSE not to be on them?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. If this guy is so severely mental, which he was, then he
shouldn't have been flying at all, let alone abroad. This and that, and everybody is supposed to accommodate this person, who was acting crazy the whole way. He wasn't fit to fly, let alone for this long period of time.
Maybe that voluntary mission they went onto should have waited until he was more stable.

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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. he was diagnosed over 10 years ago, held a job and normal life, got there
just fine. this may have all occured the day of. maybe he had been fine up to that point. probably had work to get back to and it would have costed a lot (maybe their jobs) to spend another day there. but you know, keep pretending that life is so simple, pop another xanax cause drugs are good fun, when you don't really need em.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
45. Well, gee, better pop a xanax than be shot 6 times.
But to each it's own, I guess.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
61. exactly, those sick people have no place out and among us! how dare they!
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. So, is it your contention that she did nothing wrong?
That she should have done exactly as she did, which was to drag her agitated un-medicated husband on the plane against his wish? That everybody else, including airport security, were to be responsible for not allowing this guy on the plane, but his wife's job was to get him on it?
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. yep, she is as perfect and blamelss as you. in this black and white world
i feel so comfy making these judgements. fuck, it's only life and death, right?
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. you clearly
don't have much experience with folks like him.

But i do agree, he shouldn't have been on that flight- and it was up to AIRPORT SECURITY to see to it that he wasn't put in this situation.

His wife had her hands full-
I firmly believe that this episode came on well after the trip they were on began. And, yes, people should have accommodated this man- just as they would a person having a heart attack, stroke, kidney failure, insulin shock, an epileptic seizure- a ruptured appendix... do i need to go on?

our brains are organs too- and they malfunction, and are subject to illness just like any other part of our body- people don't want to believe that- but denial doesn't make it not true.

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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. Does airport security know he is off his meds and bi-polar?
Are they psychic? Can they see into his head?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
55. You are spouting your opinions without bothering to even READ the stories
His wife followed him saying that he was bipolar and that he was missing his meds!
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Yea, she did, after he run off the plane, marshals with guns after him.
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 05:44 PM by lizzy
At that time, it was too little too late, no?
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Nashyra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #56
93. She could have considered a "distraction"
They are trained to ignore the distraction. Their focus is on the aggressive passenger. Nobody on this board was there, we have not heard from the crew, the cabin crew or the Marshalls, but yet we have condemed their action. Maybe they tried to shoot to incapacitate, maybe there were other personel in the way. This was a horrible tragic accident. For training purposes there have been three categories of hijackers and there have been for many years prior to 911. Mentally ill or pyschotic has ALWAYS been one of those categories. All three categories have always been considered a THREAT by the FAA.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #93
102. Distraction, or an accomplice. They are not going to believe
someone if they think the guy is actually going to blow up the plane, and that person is with him. It's too late at that point.
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
44. clearly your knowledge of mental illness is lacking
sick people don't come with a switch to turn their illness on and off. you can't schedule around your illness, a person may be fine for months, and something may set them off without warning. furthermore, drugs that work on one person, do not work the same on another, or they may lose their effectiveness over time. in fact, being on meds can make the illness WORSE, with bipolar disorder, taking antidepressants when a person is manic, or vise versa could cause a worse situation than illness on it's own. i guess you'd have us all keep our crazy relatives locked up in cages in the basement?

would the man still deserve to be shot if he was undiagnosed bipolar, so there'd be nobody to blame for making sure he was doped up?

IMHO deadly force should be reserved for when the threat is obvious, ie. the bomb is visible, or the suspect is acting against others. the number of medical conditions etc. not to mention lack of communication with foreigners,etc. creates an endless list of reasons why a person may not obey orders given by a plain clothes person with a handgun. if deadly force is to be used, the person using it should be easily identifiable as law enforcement.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #44
95. The alternatives you propose...

Would make secure flights impossible.

Don't shoot unless you see the bomb? Most suicide bombers would never allow a bomb to be seen. Law enforcement should be easily identifiable? That would defeat the entire purpose of air marshals -- if they were easily noticed, their absence would be obvious as well. It's too bad this guy got killed, but there is no perfect solution for airline security.
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jwcomer Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
104. Whoe the F are you to say?
Edited on Sun Dec-11-05 07:31 PM by jwcomer
Lizzy,

Who the hell do you think you are making these kinds of judgements? By what right can you say these things? Do you have some special knowledge or license? I'm guessing not. In my opinion you are completely out of line and need to take a breath and consider that which you have said about this poor couple.

regards,
Walton
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
40. your right Uncle Ray-
i DO have experience trying to force an adult to be medicated- and i wasn't an adult facing an adult- i was an adolescent trying to get my mom stabilized- mixing her pills in applesauce- paranoia was a problem even before trying to do this- and the feeling of betrayal along with the fear that she wouldn't take it, or find out about what i was doing and hate me more was overwhelming- My father couldn't persuade her, and didn't want to alienate her by doing anything 'underhanded'- i couldn't stand to do nothing- it didn't work-
nothing worked.

and people judged us all harshly, and without a clue what it was like-

clearly you do know-

i CAN imagine what this man, and his family have been through- i can imagine what his wife is feeling- and it breaks my heart yet again.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. please, don't
blame his wife- she has enough to carry as it is. If you read up, you'll find out that this had been the trip from hell for them- They had been robbed and the wife lost her laptop and other valuable items,(maybe his meds) while they were in South America- the husband was REALLY upset by the theft- she was just trying to get them home- i don't understand why they didn't just grab rent a wreck and drive home, but that's me-
I'm angry that the airlines didn't see this coming- it is THIER responsibility to maintain the safety of all the people on the airlines- this mans wife very likely was overwhelmed by the situation, and doing everything she could just to 'get home' where he would have been in familiar surroundings, and get appropriate care-
I can't imagine how much guilt she's piling on herself as it is- along with grief. She works for an agency which advocates for disabled people, including the mentally ill, so she's not aloof-

Where the hell is airport security? where were the people who are supposed to spot folks who shouldn't be on planes? why did no one intervine BEFORE they boarded this plane???

I understand your frustration, but the wife isn't the one who I hold accountable.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. The public doesn't know that FAMS has shoot-to-kill orders!
FAMS will shoot first and ask questions later. FAMS is more of a threat to the public than terrorists.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. You Know IG- i was struck by the realization
that it goes WAY beyond this- it was an 'AAHHH-HHAAA' moment for me, after reading your reply-

This happened in FLA right? Didn't they pass a law that basicly says that ANYONE in Fla can carry a gun, and shoot at anyone who they feel 'represents a threat' to them? So it wouldn't matter - Course, the guy couldn't have been carrying a gun, cause they are illegal on planes except for 'officials' but this didn't happen in the plane it happened on the tarmac didn't it???

When that Fla. law passed i was blown away at the hell that could ensue given the 'right to pre-emptivly' defend yourself- the person doesn't have to be doing anything specific- they just have to cause you to believe you are threatened is this not right??? so, no matter what comes of this, the Fla law would give cover to the men who chose to kill.

Sounds crazy- but everything is crazy now.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Remember when this behavior was at least QUESTIONED?
Remember Bernie Goetz?

He was eventually acquitted, but at least there was a trial...

Oh, what a world, what a world!

http://www.weht.net/WEHT/The_Subway_Vigilante.html
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. indeed i do-
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 03:08 PM by Bluerthanblue
as a matter of fact he hid out in my state not terribly far away from here-
i know the place he went to- the man he stayed with is still living-
wierd.
kind of a 'survivalist' 'supremecy' mentality-


really wierd- But i think Goetz was seeking vengence-
He had an 'agenda' to settle-
scary to remember that- there was a guy named Carl Drega too, who went batshit not long ago-
and took out abunch of people, and the Newbury town hall masacre, over property taxes-

this is a messed up world-

edited to add more tangents.

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. The courts acquitted him....
they couldn't prove he was seeking vengeance.
But at least he was prosecuted.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. yeah-
i felt like he was acting out alot of peoples internal demons-
to convict him, would have been facing ugly things in themselves-

but i'm not feeling very positive about human'kind' lately.

sorry-
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Perhaps if she had made the airlines
aware of the situation they could have informed the air marshalls. If she told the airlines ahead of time then I most certainly blame the airlines for not passing the info on.

All this blame towards the air marshalls who had a split second to decide what to do. But the idea that they should have somehow known not to shoot this guy is pretty unrealistic. An out of control mentally ill adult can do a lot of damage in a short amount of time, bomb or no bomb. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm sure the air marshalls aren't celebrating this at all.

I just can't imagine traveling with a mentally ill adult, who if off the meds - for whatever reason - forgot, didn't have, refused to take - and not being damn sure the airlines were aware of the situation. Maybe the airlines wouldn't have allowed them to board the plane. At least the guy would still be alive in that case.

Mz Pip
:dem:
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. She admits she made him go on the plane, even though he
didn't want to and didn't take his meds (for whatever freaking reason). She knew he wasn't on the meds, and she advocates for mentally ill- I don't see how she made a very good decision that day at all. And this guy would have been better off not flying on any voluntary missions abroad, considering his mental state.
Personally, I think it was that stupid back pack he had upfront that led to him being shot. Suicide bombers wear their bombs on their chests. I think it freaked the marshals out, even if unconsciously.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. she was speaking
as someone who wanted desperately to control, what is WAY beyond anyones control-

blame the woman- blame the back pack- blame the marshals- blame the fucking gun manufacturers-

but we need to blame ourselves- for being sucked into the

"BE AFRAID BE VERY AFRAID" mentality- and the notion that 'big brother' is 'taking care of us'-

She has to spend the rest of her life blaming herself- I don't think she needs any help from anyone else- but hell- why not just pile on her.

She's just a grieving widow.

And her pain, makes us feel uncomfortable- so lets just hate her.

sorry -- i am feeling more and more like this world isn't worth fighting through.
listen to us all??? what is the point???
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. The man
was off the plane when they shot him- It was not the wifes responsibility to inform anyone that he was agitated- It WAS the Airport security's responsibility to see that this man was clearly distraught LONG before he boarded the plane, and to take action then.

His wife was his only 'familiar' safety net- If this man was experiencing paronoia- (something NOT uncommon with an episode as this seems to have been-) her 'turning' on him could have sent him WAY over the top- i DO know what this is like- i grew up with this- i know the stigma, the averted glances, the open-mouthed stares, and the shame, on top of the fear, and frustration of trying to 'handle' everything 'just-so' so that you could get Mom back in the car, or in the house, or out of the store-
Guess folks just can't really grasp this, if they haven't lived it-

The job of Airport Security is to make sure folks who are in this kind of crisis don't get on the plane to begin with- And there is Airport Surviellance tape to verify that this was evident to an idiot, never mind professionals who are being paid, and trained to diffuse this before boarding the plane!!!-

i'm outraged at the 'ruse' of "homeland security" it's all just a money pit for bush's buddies- and more bullshit aimed at keeping america scared, on-edge, and submissive to 'the uber-dictator'

NOLA, should have opened so many eyes- this should open more- watch now, for the pandemic-
FEAR FEAR FEAR=

they are controlling america by humans most base, and foolish weakness- FEAR-

and yet, we all leave this world eventually.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Does anyone have any personal responsibility at all?
It's not her job to inform anyone? Who better than her knows that her husband is off his meds and acting crazy? Airport security isn't going to know he is off his meds. Is somebody ought to control everything for us, because we can not be possibly responsible for anything we do?
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. don't be absurd-
Why is everyone so frikin knee-jerk???- Even me- WTF is wrong with this country???
OF COURSE this woman had responsibilities- and she was juggling them as best she could-
She was attempting to keep her husband calm, and safe while navigating them both through
and airport, after a trip to South America, where her laptop, passport,wallet and other items had been stolen. She was so close to home the very last leg of what had turned into a trip to hell and back.
Have you ever tried to keep a person who was mentally ill, or even emotionally overwrought from totally losing it??? ALL BY YOURSELF? in a public place?
Read the posts here Lizzy- read people's attitude about psych problems- listen clearly to the judgement, shame, stigma, impatience, and repulsion that FAR too many people are voicing- Stand in this womans shoes for a moment- PLEASE-
REALLY stand there-

maybe she was scared- maybe SHE was tired, and worried, and at her wits end-

Maybe she'd had enough- and needed someone to help her- but that person was not only not available, he was in crisis-

She was clearly not just 'blowing him off' she was juggling a million balls and losing them- She isn't wonderwoman. From everything I've read, her husband had been pretty stable for quite awhile- Maybe the fact that he was having another event shook her up-

AIRPORT SECURITY is what began this whole post- they have EVIDENCE from SURVEILANCE CAMERAS- now, what the hell good are surviellance cameras is no one is paying any attention to them?? What if this guy was travelling solo- ? If he was exhibiting the behaviours that are described by this film, where the HELL were all those people who are supposedly put into positions to CATCH passengers like this fella, and keep him from boarding the plane?????????? THAT IS THEIR GOD DAMNED JOB!!! That is what they are hired, trained, and PAID to do-

NO, I don't desire or expect someone to 'control everything' for us- Why do people have no problem with the Marshals 'doing their job' by killing this man- but not feel frustrated that he wasn't prevented BY THE AIRLINES from getting on the plane before killing him turned out to be the only 'option'????

I'm all for personal responsibility- what I'd like to know is where were the people who saw him losing it before boarding, who did NOT do their JOB- something they claim as their career, and are monetarily compensated for accepting exactly this responsibility???

What if he'd be shit-faced drunk? Or high on meth??? would you have expected his wife to tell the airlines that?

Geez, give the poor woman a break- she is the one who lost everything - the dead don't cry- those they leave behind do.

sorry to dump so hard on you- i just can't understand anything anymore- and this 'magical' oasis of somewhat 'like minded' thinkers i have often viewed DU as being, seems to be crumbling into the same abyss as the rest of this ugly world-

And that's my problem to deal with- not anyone elses

ok?
sorry again-
blu
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. If airport security locked up everyone who acted
rude, then there would be a lot of people locked up. Again, they don't know this guy is bi-polar and off his meds.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. are you playing devils advocate?
or are you trying to learn something and share your perspective?
I honestly can't tell-

This man was BEYOND rude- and if they can stop people for 'looking suspicious' then certianly they can detain him to find out what is going on.

What perspective are you trying to share here???
I'm missing it?

Shall we destroy all mentally ill people? is that really it???
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. I don't think they should have shot him.
It's not even clear if he ever mentioned he had a bomb. But he and his family contributed to his demise.
His wife made him to get on the plane, when she knew he was not medicated and couldn't handle it.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. sorry, i don't
have the energy or will to try and find a way through the shell you've built around yourself-
It's easy to blame the family-
they are already bleeding why not just pile it on.

peace Lizzy-
i'm weary
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #52
94. You're right of course
They should simply shoot everyone who acts rude.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
71. Blaming the victim! Supporting the use of force! Ignoring facts!
Where have I found such attitudes before?
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
81. I agree with you - there are issues of personal responsibility here
When a man is behaving irrationally, by definition his behavior is unpredictable. Placing him in the semi-claustrophobic environment of an airliner, where tolerance for aberrant behavior is at historic lows, seems like asking for trouble, to put it mildly. I don't know what was distracting his wife from the obvious conclusion that her husband might not be ready to fly. I know if it were me I'd have gone to Plan B after seeing him cause disruptions in the airport before boarding.

This thread is full of the usual point-a-finger-and-wag-it posts at The Man. Funny how we on the left want to institutionalize compassion through government programs on a large scale but we don't actually trust government agents working on public behalf under hellishly stressful conditions. People in government are no more reliable or failure-proof than anyone here on this thread. All humans and all human institutions fuck up and that will never change, I don't care which party is temporarily in charge.

I'd rather have ten root canals than be an air marshal on an international flight. These FAMS had a few seconds to make a decision that, if misjudged, had the potential to result in a hundred deaths there and a lot more misery from crashing the airline industry. There is always room for analysis and critique, but knee-jerk dumping adds nothing. So come on, let's leave that to the wingnuts.

Perhaps the wide publicity will cause others to re-think whether it's a good day to travel.

Peace.


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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Except that Alpizar was already OFF the plane when he was shot!
How can you even say that FAMS agents were protecting the passengers when the man was not even on the plane!
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. A bomb detonated in the jetway is potentially just as lethal n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. And trigger happy FAMS agents are more of a threat to the public!
Did you even read the account of the witnesses, as to how they were held at gunpoint by your brave and glorious FAMS storm troopers? Keeping the passengers locked up and under armed guards for 9 hours is not the sort of actions taken by a government with nothing to hide, isn't it?
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. IG, I like you, but sometimes your arguments use inflammatory language
Seriously, I've read a lot of your posts, and I value your point of view, even when it's at odds with my own.

I have no problem that you sometimes see things differently, and I hope you feel the same about me.

I am presuming when you post you hope to convince others (including me) of your viewpoint. That's where a light touch is much more practical than a heavy one. I didn't say anything about the FAMS agents being brave and glorious stormtroopers, and it really does nothing to help persuade me by putting those kinds of words in my mouth. I end up thinking "why is she being abrasive?", and that means your argument never gets a chance to convince me.

The government has plenty to hide. So do I. So do you. We can't disprove any theory when we don't present evidence, so although such talk may be interesting it advances no purpose. That's why hearsay is disallowed in courtrooms. I could say you're a secret government agent sent to disrupt DU and no one can prove different.

Uh-oh. What if I'm right? Now I am fearing a knock on the door at midnight. :-)

So, here's my suggestion. We should give this incident a few more days and we'll probably have better information. I don't advocate blanket approval of the FAMS, but from the shreds of information I have, it looks like they did what they had to do, given the uncertainties. Maybe I'll be proven wrong. If so, then I'll be a vocal critic of the air marshal's actions. Meanwhile, remember, we only know what has been filtered through the press, and our own biases and personalities set up an even more powerful filter as well.

I look forward to more of your posts, stormtroopers or no. ;-)

Peace.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. Peace back to you!
I hope there is a lawsuit arising out of this!

We haven't heard from the widow yet, but we already know that FAMS is lying:

One passenger said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all" during the uproar as the Orlando-bound flight prepared to leave Miami on Wednesday.

<snip>

Some passengers, including John McAlhany, said they believe Alpizar was no threat to anyone.

McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker who was returning home from a fishing trip in Key West, said he was sitting in Seat 21C when he noticed a commotion a few rows back.

"I heard him saying to his wife, 'I've got to get off the plane,'" McAlhany said. "He bumped me, bumped a couple of stewardesses. He just wanted to get off the plane."

Alpizar ran up the aisle into the first-class cabin, where marshals chased him onto the jetway, McAlhany said.

McAlhany said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all."

"The first time I heard the word 'bomb' was when I was interviewed by the FBI," McAlhany said. "They kept asking if I heard him say the B-word. And I said, 'What is the B-word?' And they were like, 'Bomb.' I said no. They said, 'Are you sure?' And I am."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/sns-ap-airplane-shooting,0,6946195.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

An August 2004 report by the Department of Homeland Security's inspector general found the program experienced several problems.

In 2002, flight marshals were cited for instances of improper flight conduct, lost or stolen equipment including weapons, failed training and sleeping on duty, according to the report.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-marshals1005dec10,0,1281026.story?page=2&coll=orl-home-headlines

The treatment of the plane’s passengers following the shooting was of a piece with the violence meted out to Alpizar. Armed federal marshals and police agents stormed the aircraft and ordered them to put their hands on their heads. Terrified passengers were told to remain motionless for more than an hour, and some reported having guns put to the backs of their heads.

After they were taken off the plane, with their hands still on their heads, they were questioned for hours by police officials, including officers from the Miami-Dade police and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The last passenger was not released until nine hours after the event.

Despite the fact that no evidence had been found to indicate Alpizar’s actions had anything to do with terrorism, the passengers were grilled about whether they had heard him speak of a bomb. Anne Buechner, whose husband of 18 years had just been shot down in cold blood, was also questioned for hours before being released.

<snip>

It is significant that after nine hours of such questioning, no one has come forward to corroborate the Federal Air Marshal Service’s claim that Alpizar said he had a bomb. The obvious explanation is that the entire bomb threat story is a lie, most likely invented by the perpetrators immediately after the shooting to provide themselves with an alibi.

This lack of evidence, however, has not deterred the federal authorities and the Bush administration from praising the performance of the marshals. On the contrary, in the immediate aftermath of the state killing—and before any investigation into the incident—White House spokesman Scott McClellan commented, “These marshals appear to have acted in a way that’s consistent with the extensive training that they have received.”

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/dec2005/miam-d10.shtml


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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. We don't know FAMS is lying, but it IS reasonable to be skeptical
The reason we don't know is because the investigation has hardly begun. So, let's be skeptical but open-minded.

Eyewitness accounts during violent or stressful incidents are so unreliable that they verge on useless. I believe there would be a revolution against courtroom use of eyesitnesses if the degree of unreliability were understood by the public.

I researched this topic several years ago for a documentary I was writing called "Justice for Some."

You may find this following book - a classic in the field - valuable for the insight and research it presents about eyewitness reliability. It will definitely get your progressive juices flowing, too. It's called Convicting the Innocent; Errors of Criminal Justice, by Edwin M. Borchard. You'll have to get it at the library, because it's not in current print. But it remains the masterpiece of the field. I swear, you read this book, and you will never trust eyewitness accounts again.

A much more recent book called "Actual Innocence" IS in print. It deals with the cases of a number people wrongfully convicted of murder and sentenced to die...and how these convictions were overturned, in FULL contravention of the eyewitness testimony that put them in jeopardy. Most of these false eyewitness accounts were not malicious - people simply remembered seeing or hearing things that they didn't, under the stress of the moment. Just take a moment and click through to the Amazon page, and read some of the comments.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/038549341X/102-9897190-5359369?v=glance&n=283155

Mind you, I am not discounting what the eyewitness quoted in the paper said, but remember, the business of newspapers is to sell papers, so they will select whose viewpoint to present with that in mind. That's why wait and see seems smarter to me. More information is coming, and will eventually make its way even to us Keyboard Kommandos. So far, no one in the accounts I've read said they heard the word bomb, but fortunately, the cabin microphones will have picked up what was said, and the exchange will likely appear on the aircraft tapes that have been sent for analysis. I'll be most curious to hear the result.

Only one thing can be said for certain, and that's that until all of the information comes in, nothing can be said for certain.

Peace.

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Nashyra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
105. There is a way to inform the airlines
If the airlines are informed, the Captain is informed and is part of the decision process of letting him/her on board. Also any passenger who has informed the crew they are carrying a weapon, marshals, police escorting a prisoner etc would more than likely be informed.

It was a horrible chain of events, I can not believe that the marshals are anything short of devastated. As for his being considered a distraction/accomplice this is not blaming the wife, it is just a matter of fact of training. Anytime there is a chance that you or your partner has a remote chance of a medical mishap, heart problems, low sugar, (the airlines will not keep your medication on ice, they do not want to be responsible but they will give you ice in a bag) you notify the airlines, on most reservation forms their is a form that you can fill out.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. And what do you propose she should have done?
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 01:26 PM by proud2Blib
I am tired of all these people blaming her, saying she shouldn't have let him get on that plane. I want to know what you think her choices were. What COULD she have done? Let's pretend she decided not to let him fly. What next?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
48. Let's pretend she decided no to fly him? What next?
Well, for one thing, he would still be alive.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Maybe not
Without meds, he could be suicidal. She was doing what she thought was best. Get him home - get him back on his meds.

It is cruel to blame his wife. Anyone with a family member who suffers from mental illness knows how tragic this case is. And we also know it is NOT his wife's fault.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Oh lordy. When Andrea Yates murdered her kids, how many
of you screamed her husband should be locked up next to her? He knew she was crazy yet let her with those kids. But this woman is apparently blameless? Why is that? Is not her responsibility to make sure her husband took his meds and can handle the flight, but everyone elses's? Airport security isn't going to know he is off his meds and bi-polar. What do you propose they do? Lock up everyone in the airport that acts rude and obnoxious?
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. if you look back
you may find that Andrea Yates husband wanted her off her meds, cause they wanted to have more children- And because they were not supposed to 'need' medications according to the cultic pastor
that her husband and she was being 'taught' by-
And while many people may have said her husband should have been locked up with her- in place of her or whatever- i was not one of them,- and i wouldn't use that to justify any future tragic situations.
These meds aren't something you can FORCE on people- even if they are involuntarily committed to a hospital- unless they are activly harming themselves or others- and even then sedation is the usual option- something far more potent than a few xanax- thorizine for example-
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
78. Completely different situation
Andrea Yates was sick for a long long time. Her husband knew it. She had been hospitalized for christ's sake. He knew very well she was insane and yet he went off and left her with the kids - alone.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. oh
thank you for speaking up- this whole mess is so incrediblely discouraging.
thank you- for using your voice, even when no one wants to hear uncomfortable truth.

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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. trying to get home is such an awful thing to do for a sick person, right?
acting up crazy all the way, the whole flight?
you got a link for that?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. Your post is evidently meant to be inflammatory...what's your problem?
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
64. I hope you never find yourself in a difficult situation.
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 06:23 PM by FrustratedDemInNC
There could have been a number of reasons why he didn't have his meds so blaming his wife for his murder is chilling.

Life is not just black and white you know.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. He was agitated because he thought there was a bomb on board
No one was doing anything about it and he was panicing.... He was running away from a bomb not threatening people with one...At least that is how I heard the story..
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. He may have been bipolar, but this looks more like a panic attack
that made him want to get off the plane in a hurry. One does not have to be bipolar to have a panic attack!
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. That's probably why I'll never fly again.
I'm a naturally anxious person. Put me in an airport, standing in lines, waiting, getting on a plane, and I'd be in a panic mode. The screeners are trained to look for people who are sweating, seem nervous, pacing, etc.... I'd probably be pulled out of line and dragged into a small room, which.. of course.. would make the anxiety go through the roof. Anyone who's had a panic attack or is afraid of flying, can only imagine themselves running off a plane like that. I did it once, but I didn't wave my arms or scream... just quietly say "I have to go" and got back off the plane before the doors closed. It was my ex-boyfriend who was screaming and jumping up and down in anger (that's why he's an ex) because I got off the plane, that caught the attention of security.

If I fly again, I'll have to be highly medicated.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. I hate flying to. I fly medicated with xanax.
I yet to run off the plane screaming, even though I am having panic attacks when I fly. If you really can't control yourself, then you should stay on the ground.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
62. You would think someone with a similar condition
would have more compassion and understanding instead of blaming the victim. My guess is you either desperately need to prove you're better, different than him or that something similar could never happen to you.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. it screams of self-hatred, doesn't it?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. And your desire must have been to become a shrink. What
happened? Why do you feel the need to analyze people on a message board, instead of sitting in a nice office getting 100 $ in hour?
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. perhaps i was one and i got fed up with people like you.
the perfect, yet angry, folk who came in to blame everyone else in their world and beg for some Xanax.
:rofl:
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #67
80. Are you Tom Cruise, by any chance? You know, kind of freaky
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 11:53 PM by lizzy
guy who thinks that no one should take medication for any mental problems they might have? WTF is you problem with xanax, do tell? Do you think mental problems are not worthy of medication? That mental problems should be left untreated? Or that people should be ashamed if they take medications for whatever mental disorder they might have? WTF is your point?
Would you be mocking someone if they told you they need medication for their heart condition, for instance? Then whatever gave you the idea that you can mock someone who takes anti-anxiety meds while flying?

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. Playing the victim now?
After the way you savaged Rigoberto and Anne Alpizar with your Faux News style of tirades about "personal responsibility," you are now playing the victim. How nice!
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #84
91. Well, I happen to think that people who take xanax or other
medications shouldn't be mocked. No more than people who need insulin should be mocked. Do you disagree? Do you think it's very shameful for someone to admit they take something like xanax?
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #91
98. Now, you hysterically demand the sympathy you withold from others...
Edited on Sun Dec-11-05 01:59 PM by bettyellen
And will never see how shameful and sad it is that you have no empathy at all, and no matter how many people point this out to you, yo will refuse to see it.
And that YOU play the victim with your little anxiety problem and yet advocate all this hard ass attitude and "personal responsibilty" to people who actually need meds, day to day and have tragedies occur out of a single bump in the road over the course of many years. I never said a thing against people who need meds, that would be you blaming them and their families if it things do not work out perfectly. But you already know that which is why you don't actually answer any questions and cloud the waters pretending others lack the empathy that you do. And you've learned only that the bullying "togh shit" is not working here, that people are digusted by it, so you try the "poor me" gambit now. It's a laugh.
You are the one with the attitude blaming and mocking the sick. Don't attempt to wash your hands of the cruel and egotistic comments you have made in this thread. You've shown that you don't give a fuck about the truly sick, you blame them while requesting a pity party over your anxiety problem. It's no suprise to me that you learn nothing from the crtitism you've received, and try to twist it into a poor me scenario. I could have told you this is where it was headed, but it was too much fun to watch the meltdown where you attempt to demonize others and make things all about you. Poor you, indeed, because all the meds in the world can't give you a heart or make you care about your fellow man.
:hi:
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #98
101. Maybe you should examine your attitude. I couldn't care less
about any sympathy from you. I am just wondering why you have a need to mock someone for taking xanax. Would you be mocking someone if they said they take insulin? Do you think there is a big difference? It's attitude like yours that make people ashamed to admit they have a mental disorder.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. It should have been obvious I was only mocking you.....
And those with your callous blame everyone else attitude. It's right there in black and white.
Reread the post, it has nothing to do with people with serious problems, or those who accept they need help. Where'd you get that from?
You reallly need to twist things into your own version of reality to feel better about yourself. Did you notice you've projected your hard-assed attitude onto me now with this victim bullshit? It hasn't escaped others notice. But you won't see what you don't want to, you didn't answer 90% of the questions put before you in this thread. I find your replies to be evasive and absolutely twisted. But hey, that's your reality. Have fun with it.
See ya!
:hi:
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #84
99. Topping from the bottom! When the bullying doesn't work, throw yourself
a pity party, you see, it IS everybody else's fault, boo hoo!!
Good god, if I had a nickle for everytime I've seen someone try to pull that one. Try the one about personal responsibility while they are thrashing on the floor crying, demanding attention like a kid.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #65
79. Why do you post inflammatory comments on a message board?...
...sounds like a cry for help to me.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. Eyewitnesses refute official story in fatal shooting of passenger at Miami
Eyewitnesses refute official story in fatal shooting of passenger at Miami airport

By Kate Randall
10 December 2005

The Orlando Sentinel interviewed seven passengers who said Alpizar was silent as he bolted past them. “One thought he had taken the wrong flight. Another thought he was going to throw up,” the Sentinel reported.

Jorge A. Borrelli, an Orlando architect, stated, “I can tell you, he never said a thing in that airplane. He never called out he had a bomb. He never said a word from the point he passed me at Row 9.... He did not say a word to anybody.”

Borrelli said that Alpizar’s wife tried to reach her husband: “She was saying, ‘My husband’s sick. He’s sick. He’s bipolar. He didn’t take his medicine. It was my fault. I made him get on the plane. You know, we just came from a medical mission. Oh, my God! They’ve killed my husband!’ ”

Jorge Figueroa, a power-plant operator seated a few rows behind first class, told the Sentinel, “He wasn’t saying anything; he was just running. I said to myself, ‘It is probably a person who took the wrong plane.’ ”

Two teenagers seated in Row 26 concurred that Alpizar had said nothing as he ran down the aisle.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/dec2005/miam-d10.shtml

See also:

Miami airplane shooting: Washington’s “war on terrorism” comes home

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/dec2005/shot-d09.shtml


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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
25. Maybe their prescriptions should include a bulletproof vest
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 01:05 PM by kurth
Mentally ill 4 times more likely to be shot by police - ABC News
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
72. Exactly. n/t
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
27. And does a camera show him saying he had a bomb?
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
82. This proves he was wearing the backpack that way in Ecuador
But it doesn't prove anything about Miami. How (or whether) he was wearing a backpack should be easily ascertainable from forensic evidence, just like the lack of a heavy coat was in the London case. At this point, the video is a red herring on the point.

"Investigators said he was wearing his backpack on the front, just as he is in the surveillance video, when he told the air marshals on the plane that he had a bomb."
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. Except that none of the passengers hear Alpizar say anything about "bomb"
This is like the way some cops plant guns on people they shoot, to make the shooting victim look guilty and stop any questioning by doubters.

FAMS are liars! They are nothing more than FREEPERS wearing a badge!

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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #85
88. And the video does not address the "he said he had a bomb" issue
It seems to be pointed at making this guy seem weird and unsympathetic, to make the air marshall's shooting seem acceptable to a certain sector of the population.

Air travel involves fear of flying, booze, anxiety about security, long lineups, interminable waits, bad food, low cabin air pressure, nicotine withdrawal, lack of sleep, crying babies, etc. - an incredible list of negative environmental factors when you think about it. If acting a bit unhinged on a plane was a capital offense, air marshals could shoot people on a daily basis.

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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
96. Am I suppose to be able to watch the video?
All I get is a still picture of the guy standing there. How do I get it to work?
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