Crips gang co-founder Stanley Tookie Williams has been executed

AKAL

Sheesh.

I am not saying I agree or disagree with the punishment, but I am curious what role does the posters religion play in anything?

Since the Church is anti-DP. of course, Bishops NEVER talk about that when they start crying out for the Eucharist to be withheld from pro-choice Catholics (an action that is a violation of RC dogma and "rules").

They're supposed to be following the teachings of Jesus, and what-not. Jesus says to show mercy and not judge. God says vengence belongs to Him. Right-wingers want to preach Jesus, they just don't want to practice it.

I'm for executing mass murders.
I'm also pro-choice.

Are you pro-choice?

It's not much different than you asking what someone's religion is. Whatever your religious interpretation is, I hope you don't force it on everyone else and declare them not worthy of "God" if they don't hit your criteria. That would be very fundy of you.

http://www.democracynow.org/ Jesse Jackson and others speak about the execution.

I have never been for the death penalty because they keep finding people innocent, before and after they are executed. All these innocent "suspects" have a similar story to Tookies's, strangely enough, although few could say they started the Crips.

There is an eye-opening history of the gang here-

http://www.streetgangs.com/crips/

I was speaking of semantics, as in "pretty crappy word choice, 'mistake'."

I guess the Iraq Invasion is merely "a big mistake"?

nor was Williams the first American gang leader. Please read your US history.

Was that not a gang? Hello? West Side Story anybody, Jets v Sharks? Seriously how stupid to think one person "started all the gangs."

Not even worthy of comment.

To think that the gang phenomena of the last 25 years spring from one man is so utterly stupid that I can't even believe it.

Nonetheless, this gang, that is one of many, is one of the more notoriously famous and dangerous ones. Although it seems to be overshadowed, in terms of viciousness, by MS-13.

They are surely among the most vicious gangs around. The question is whether this viciousness, or even the very existence of the Crips, could possibly spring from the mind and actions of one man. That's where the absurdity lies. The Crips are at best a symptom of incredibly complex social processes. The actions of one man (in this case, Tookie Williams) are all but insignificant as a factor in the emergence and growth of a social phenomenon like the Crips. The will to reduce those complex social factors to the agency of one person is where the idiocy lies.

Usually defined by ethnicity.

Murder is not a mere mistake. It is not a "whoopse." When I mispell a word when I'm typing - that's a "mistake." Saying "we all make mistakes" about murder is ludicrous and asinine. We may all make mistakes, we don't all commitee willful acts of violent brutal killing.

I am not for capital punishment either. But not because I think its an intelligent argument to say, "hey, murder - big deal! We all make mistakes." We most certainly do not all murder.

I apologize to the victim of execution for my fellow man's ignorant tribal reptillian mistake.
But wut about the victims of the crime? yeah what about it?
Justice doesn't have to include killing-removal from society prevents their ability to harm again.


I guess someone never heard of "two wrongs don't make a right"!

---not a very advanced concept is it?

Vengance is primitive.

A man could not harm society locked away for life without the possibility of parole--especially one who's made good as best he can....cost 2 million to execute--much less to feed them and keep them alive-

and now they're going to execute a 72 year old blind man in a wheel chair?--why?

Vengance!!

the cycle of violence can't be broken using violence--

like the War on "War" (terra ism)

makes no sense

You are babbling on about a point which I never argued. I'm not for captial punishment.

However, your choice of words was pretty bad, to say the least. Saying "we all make mistakes" in response to a person's multiple murders is the issue. We do all make mistakes. We do not all commit murder, which is why your statement leaves much to be desired.

what didn't you get?
Murder by State on behalf of the people is a grave grave mistake in every sense of the word.

follow me: "WE all make mistakes"-->my fellow man who is executing my other fellow man is making a grave mistake in doing so.

Sorry but this is not advanced debate here.

I seem to be in the minority on this one. The question is: Was Gov. Schwartzenegger right to refuse clemency?

73% Yes
27% No

found your eternal life. Hasta La vista, baby!

nice people! As usual the Republicans and every other vengeful, bloodthirsty person in this country have come up with a nifty loophole; that God INTENDED to say "Thou shall not kill NICE people".

Thou shalt not MURDER.
x(

If all we have as a basis for the law is the 3000 year old writings of a desert tribe, we're going nowhere fast.

Actually vengance is the territory of happy executioners like GWB & Ahnuld.

Let's play! I fear the next closet freeper will say "An eye for an eye"......

Which supersedes the OT (an eye for an eye).

Not that I base my life on Bible verses... just making believe I'm a Freeper for a second... eek!

I only know the oft-quoted biblical quotes. Does the "other cheek" quotation come from volume 1 or 2?

NT

well done :)

is against the rules of DU.

Shame on you.

Did God say "If you murder I'll kill you"?

take your place in hell next to your father, his boss hitler, and your boss bush jr.

how can people watch THAT?

A soul is leaving this earth--can they not let them go in dignity.

It's not a fuckin' spectator sport. What the hell?

Remember Abu Ghraib?

I don't understand why so many have to be there. Despite the legal necessity, I still find it morbid and rather inhumane...

Just mho...

and we are one step closer to moral vacuity.

When it is his time to meet his maker by refusing to obey Gods law

By KIM CURTIS, Associated Press Writer
27 minutes ago

SAN QUENTIN, Calif. - Convicted killer Stanley Tookie Williams, the Crips gang co-founder whose case stirred a national debate about capital punishment versus the possibility of redemption, was executed Tuesday morning.


Williams, 51, died at 12:35 a.m. Officials at San Quentin State Prison seemed to have trouble injecting the lethal mixture into his muscular arm. As they struggled to find a vein, Williams looked up repeatedly and appeared frustrated, shaking his head at supporters and other witnesses.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051213/ap_on_re_us/williams_execution;_ylt=AqHdnY92cRne7LPrvvMhDX.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

"Semper et infirmi est animi exiguique voluptas Ultio"

Always effective :sarcasm:

...his sentence for his crimes was death, not to find Jesus, repent, and write children's books.

were things that were illegal under German law then. Was that OK..."it's the law"?

if Hitler wrote a children's book would you fight for him too?

The point was that "legal" doesn't mean "right."

I was not "arguing for Hitler." Obviously you missed the point...

And Arnold will suffer eternally, but "Tookie" (such a cute, little-child name, no?) should, as I've read in other posts, "rest in peace"?

Can't we "forgive" the governor? Heh.

Not clear on what you are referring to... but open to hearing your opinion.

to truly atone for all the misery and death he indirectly caused by founding the Crips.

Just how much blood is on Tookie William's hands? Either by direct action or indirectly. Even if he did not kill the four people that he was convicted of. How many other innocent people and gang members died as a result of him co-founding a gang such as the crips? How many mother's have lost their children to this gang. Either in losing their lives or in losing their freedom by committing crimes as members of the gang.
One thing I heard on the news was that Tookie himself suggested that death may be some sort of karmic retribution for all of the bad acts that he did commit in the past.
As for myself, I have to agree that there was more that this man did to hurt people than writing a few childrens books can atone for. Even if he did not kill those four people, he has his fair share of blood on his hands. If he did kill them, he got to live 25 years longer than his victims did.

...there were enough questions about the legitmacy of his trial and other matters that should have given more than enough grounds for a stay.

This case highlights exactly why we as a society need to revisit the issue of capital punishment. It's become a form of revenge rather than justice.

Then was this a punishment or a release to everlasting life?
The guy should have spent 50 years in prison thinking about what he did
rather than being "released" by death.

country still executing people. We're the only western country practicing unilateral aggression against sovereign nations. Makes you feel all warm and wholesome.

Capital punishment is still practiced in Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Cuba, Dominica, El Salvador, Jamaica, and Peru.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-countries-eng

On edit: I forgot Trinidad and Tobago!

It's interesting that the most religious of the industrialized countries is also one of the handful that still allows the state to kill people. I think unfounded notions of souls and an afterlife make it a lot easier for people to deal with state-enforced killing.

the glorification of revenge in popular culture (though the fact that lethal injection is used to pretend the inhumane is humane is a tad oxymoronic)

this morning I felt so much safer and grateful knowing I lived in a civilized country and could never be killed by the state for a crime I didn't commit I'm very fortunate to live in Canada.

We need to get rid of religion, and make this a secular nation. Notions such as heaven, hell, and the flying spaghetti monster have no place in a civilized, modern society.

the right thing to do? Well Osama Bin Laden declared it and 19 hijackers committed it. Is that the right thing to do?

They both used their Holy Book as an excuse for their actions.

This is getting more and more bizarre.

At least all the right winged fanatical 'Christian" groups are among ts the largest supporters.

But if you are against any religion's ethics being interjected into secualr law, are you against arresting people for murder altogether, as it's against the Ten Commandments?

I am so oppossed to the State having the power to kill it's citizens, but what Tookie did was so horrible, how do you punish someone for this?

Civilized societies do not murder people.

sorry cynicism rules my superego today

with no college classes, conjugal visits, etc. If you are religious, then the person will get their punishment in the next life, also.

Row "mistake?"

Evidence is supposedly overwhelming that Wms. was the perp in 4 murders but I haven't heard anything about DNA evidence.

Did he "show remorse" or apologize? Hey I don't want him executed, just life in prison for him and the rest of his murderous gang will do fine.

Afghanistan, how can we morally justify those freedom fighters in Iraq killing 10 times the number of 911. If, I were an Iraqi I would buy a gun too! I don't own one and hope that I will never buy a gun for any reason, because the intention is to murder someone else.

We have to use the word murder, there is no lawful killing in my book!

drug dealing and wheeling, he founded the crips. He was a true leader, but in the wrong place. He's accused of killining some folk at a motel and at a liquor store. Whether he did that or not, he probably killed a lot more people than what he's accused for.

I'm against the death penalty, but it's a shame this argument has to come back dealing with such a person. If he had not committed the crimes, then he may have found redemption in a new lifestyle while incarcerated. If he had murdered, then not admitting the crime is far from a step to redemption. I think people find redemption, but it's possible that Wiliams has not.

Take the time to read the transcripts of his trial...he took a great deal of pleasure in giving detailed descriptions of how he committed those murders, then laughed aloud about it in court!

He was overcome by innocence when he landed in San Quentin..Tookie did the crime, but like most cowards, he didn't want to do the time!

1- You do some things and you will be executed.
2- There can be no justice else than ours.
Which is pretty much what the micro-societies than gangs are say as well. Where is the progress toward the realization of humanity?

the one with the best lawyer wins the trial.

Some people get executed because they couldn't afford a good lawyer and the family calling for blood could.

That's where I believe America should stop the death penalty. There is a terrible unfairness in trials and how it's decided, that people get executed.

I'm not against the death penalty though. I just think it needs to fit a clear criteria before it's invoked.

I think tookie should have been executed for the 4 murders 20 years ago. Now that he really was a different person, became a peace activist etc. it's an empty win for people who want "justice" against murderers. I don't blame them a bit for wanting that. I would if he killed someone in my family.

Anyway, this is bad all around. He was a mass murderer who did deserve it. And he was also a peace activist who didn't deserve it.

Somehow, I won't be sheding any tears for him though.

Don't you feel safer?

I suppose some people here would feel better if he was not executed for that mere 30 thousand iraqis he says he killed. After all he is a Christian.

I suppose in an ideal world Tookie would be alive sitting next to Ted Bundy in their cells, right now, but alas, mass murders often get cries for the punnishment to fit the crime. Wonder why. People are so blood thirsty, wanting mass murders to be executed. Can you believe it?

now they need to go after the co-found of the blood gang.

I say, you should have had to watch. To watch his convulsions and smell the shit coming out of his dying ass. Wanting someone dead and then turning away when it happens is the quintessence of hypocrisy and cowardice.

...in a place where all the gangstas is red.

Satan is a Blood, yo!

/Wurd.

I'll bet you went home early from work in order watch TV coverage of the "Shock and Awe" over Baghdad while drinking beer and eating chips.

That was weird.

I wouldn't make sweeping assumptions about me, and I'll try to do the same.

What does Shock and Awww shucks, we ain't found them dang WMD's...have to do with Tookie?

Not all on the "left" are the same. We may disagree on many things. The goal her is to regain power based on what we have in common...and then thrash out the little differences.

:popcorn:

People willing to forgive Mr. Williams, based on his essential humanity and regardless of his crimes, ought also to be in a forgiving mood towards Gov. Schwarzenegger. One hopes, furthermore, that this position is principled, and extends to any and all criminals of whatever magnitude; e.g., that the holder of such a position deems results of the Nuremburg trials to be a travesty of justice.

People willing to use the Christian religion as the basis for forgiveness might then explain the concept of the Christian "Hell". Who, pray (pun intended), would be its denizens? (Sub-set: Catholics "know" that no redemption is possible without contrition.)

People who are convinced that Mr. Williams did not have a fair trial may be correct, but the burden of proof is on them. E.g., lack of DNA evidence is not lack of all evidence; is there DNA evidence pointing towards another? And "circumstantial" does not mean "unsubstantiated gossip".

People who wish to compare Mr. Williams with "legal victims" of the past would do well to make the comparison as similar as possible; i.e., victims not convicted of crimes in a court of law, but who are nevertheless lynched by mobs or exterminated en masse by the state, are NOT "similar" to punished criminals so convicted, having been provided with the services of an attorney and the ability to confront one's accusers.

As for the time lag between sentencing and its carrying-out: Would a speedier execution have been preferable?

As for Mr. Williams' personal improvement: It was admirable. It was also not put to the test of longevity in the outside world.

Mike Farrell I respect. He's against the death penalty per se; he doesn't pick and choose his doomed based on, say, racial issues or Nobel Prize nominations or children's books.
He'll be waging his principled battle tomorrow, too.

Repukes = pro-life but are pro-death????

if mr. williams was truly innocent didn't they just defy everything their whole party stands on?

whoops just answered my own question, 30,000 iraqies have died since being "liberated" by our righteous government. I guess those INNOCENT women and children were GUILTY!!!! guilty of being born in Iraq.
this is vile, sick, pewtrid and very very sad.

It's not that complicated, really.

Until you explain their carefree attitude toward all the dead, innocent Iraqis.

Would be their answer.

Or, put more intelligently - I care more about my family and fellow americans than I care about iraqis.


(I am only doing opposition prep, not start flaming me out.) :)

innocents?? do they have to americans to matter?

When one of his victims asks for mercy, then mercy MUST be granted.
Until that happens, we can feel what we wish, but we are not the victim.
Our forgiveness means nothing.

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its good when a murderer is taken off this world.

What a wonderful company we keep, but then, what can we expect from a country where lynching was not outlawed until relatively recently, and where torture is supported by a majority of the public.

Even a country like Cuba will only impose the death penalty in cases of terrorism:

Read it and weep:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html

And where is the high-level, wise, thoughtful, careful and long-ranging reflection and debate that should surround such matters? In the so-called "supreme" court. Naah... Too busy adding more paint layers to the rusty ship. This country is still stuck at the Talion's law level (Hammourabbi Code, minus 1730...)

That has to be the most racist remark I've ever heard.

when he kills 4 people, he is still deemed a mass murderer and most juries look bad on that.

Actually the only racism here sounds like your post. I'm almost afraid to do a search on you and see what I find. Racism is ugly no matter where it comes from.

but I can't agree with such a broad brush statement. I'm Latino, BTW.

What a TOTALLY dumbass thing to say! The fact that he was a total criminal and murdered four people has nothing to do with his color!

I seem to remember an awful lot of Black people being really stoked when OJ got off after slaughtering his ex-wife and her friend...

There's pictures of that poo widdle ting!

:hi:

Well, actually since I don't plan to SHOTGUN four people to BLOODY DEATH and start a gang responsible for thousands of other murders, maybe I WON'T see ya on the other side! But have a nice afterlife anyway, buddy!! There are lots of people in the General Discussion forum who just LOVE YOU!!! Kiss kiss!! :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

That's an interesting point to ponder. Will his good deeds turn out to me more significant than his faults?

I hope so - as I hope for each and every person.

EDIT: Well, maybe faults was a little weak. Should be substituted with previous inclinations toward hatred.

The yogic writings say even a highwayman can become a saint--
The heaven/hell--good/bad Christian duality is absolutely insane.

The man turned his life around as best he could and then we killed him.

I just wonder who is more sinful in the eyes of God?

He got twenty five more years of life than the innocent people he murdered..I hope he rots in hell!

Would you rather he 'rot in hell' or 'rot under the guilt of his actions in prison while working to stop gang violence'?

people are pro capital punishment. Life imprisonment works for me. Many members on this thread have said that race has nothing to do with it. Bullshit. Think how disproportionately blacks are executed compared to other ethnicities.

Do you think he would have got into any legal trouble had he been raised in suburbia? Socioeconomics plays a HUGE part.

These are state sanctioned, premeditated in every sense of the work, revenge killings.

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I'd say your sociological thesis has flaws.
Or maybe you're just remembering "West Side Story": "I'm depraved onaccounta I'm deprived!"

But that there is race involved? Maybe in ways of which you seem unwitting.

sure what you are saying here... are you saying that the issue of race shouldn't even be on the table?

Have a look see at this:

The Philadelphia Story

More than half of the death sentences rendered in Pennsylvania are cases from Philadelphia, a city with only 14% of the state's population. Philadelphia's District Attorney, Lynne Abraham, has been called "The Deadliest D.A." in a 1995 New York Times article.10 Eighty-three percent of those on death row from Philadelphia are African-American. But raw numbers of racial disproportion do not tell the whole story. In order to determine for certain whether race is a decisive factor, researchers must examine the outcomes in cases of similar severity with defendants of similar criminal backgrounds.

This examination requires a statistical analysis which takes into account such factors as multiple victims, the deliberate infliction of pain, and the background of the accused. The ultimate question is: "Among similar cases, is race a factor in whether death sentences are imposed against black defendants?"

Such a study was recently conducted in Philadelphia. 11The results are dramatic, particularly for a state outside of the deep south, a region where racial disparities in the criminal justice system have a long history. The researchers examined a large sample of the murders which were eligible for the death penalty in the state between 1983 and 1993. The researchers found that, even after controlling for case differences, blacks in Philadelphia were substantially more likely to get the death penalty than other defendants who committed similar murders. Black defendants faced odds of receiving a death sentence that were 3.9 times higher than other similarly situated defendants.

The researchers used a variety of analytical tools to compare and validate their findings. They consistently found substantial race-of-defendant disparities. The results of this bias against black defendants in Philadelphia is estimated to be an excess of 38% in death sentences for black defendants compared to all other defendants for similar crimes.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=539#Study%201

There's much, much more at the website. But setting the issue of race aside, it's pretty sad that such an "evolved" society like ours deals with our most serious offenders by KILLING them.

It's strange to me when I agree with people here passionatly on so many different subjects and then all of the sudden...disappointment.

be no place for capital punishment in our justice system.

Mr.Williams the crips founder was executed,when will justice find the founders of the Bloods(Bush&Blair),Williams was executed because he was convicted of killing four people,Mr.Bush&Blair have killed thousands,where is the justice.?

...and the Contras, Reagan, Bush sr, Oliver North and "Barry" (and the boys). And many others.

http://www.madcowprod.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MP&Product_Code=BAB&Category_Code=B

Sorry, but I cannot find sympathy for a man who murdered four people with his hands and countless others with his actions.