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KR:Bush: I have power to order spying in U.S.-legal experts-prez broke law

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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 05:09 PM
Original message
KR:Bush: I have power to order spying in U.S.-legal experts-prez broke law
Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 05:11 PM by Pirate Smile

Bush: I have power to order spying in U.S.
Some legal experts say president broke the law


RON HUTCHESON
Knight Ridder

WASHINGTON - President Bush said Monday he didn't need explicit permission from Congress or the courts for a secret domestic surveillance program to eavesdrop on suspected terrorists.

At a White House news conference, Bush expressed outrage that the program had become public and vowed to continue it. The president said his constitutional power as commander in chief and the congressional resolution that authorized the use of military force against terrorists gave him the authority to order the eavesdropping.

His explanation fueled more anger over the domestic spying, and some legal experts asserted that Bush broke the law on a scale that could warrant his impeachment.

"The president's dead wrong. It's not a close question. Federal law is clear," said Jonathan Turley, a law professor at George Washington University and a specialist in surveillance law. "When the president admits that he violated federal law, that raises serious constitutional questions of high crimes and misdemeanors."

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/charlotte/news/13446592.htm?source=rss&channel=charlotte_news

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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. For Bush: Executive Powers = Divine Right of Kings
Not withstanding there being zero legal precedent to support the idea that the President is above the law.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. George III was a pretty decent guy... unlike our Mad King George
This is seriously an impeachable offense...
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. arguably, George III put more resources into scientific research ...
... than Dubya wants to!


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Freedom_from_Chains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Law, I don't need no stinking law to spy on Americans
Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 05:17 PM by Freedom_from_Chains
After all, I'm the king, er president.

It also should not go unnoticed that George is threating to throw the legal weight of the justice department against the people who broke this story and go after them criminally.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. l'etat, c'est moi
said Louis XIV.

And we all know what happened to Louis XVI....
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. kick
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. high crimes and misdemeanors
Now THIS folks, is what impeachment is for, not a freakin blowjob.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. How much you want to bet that when we review the full list of people
who were under surveillance, that we'll find some of their corporate and political opponents?
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. How much do you want to bet that whoever they spyed on DID NOT have ties
to Al Qaida as they claim? I've beeb asking myself the question over and over "why would they not ask the FISA court for a warrant and approval?" They even have the ability to go to them within 72 hrs after the fact and they STILL DIDN'T get aproval. Why?

BECAUSE: Whover they were spying on, they didn't want anyone saying NO or Reporting...its because its something they know was wrong. :eyes:
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. Not sure but the Patriot Act may just make him correct
This site is very informative on the Patriot Act and quite concerned.
http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.php


The EFF's chief concerns with PATRIOT include:
1 Expanded Surveillance With Reduced Checks and Balances. PATRIOT expands all four traditional tools of surveillance used by law enforcement -- wiretaps, search warrants, pen/trap orders and subpoenas. Their counterparts under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) that allow spying in the U.S. by foreign intelligence agencies have similarly been expanded. This means:
a Be careful what you read on the Internet. The government may now monitor the online activities of innocent Americans, and perhaps even track what Web sites you read, by merely telling a judge anywhere in the U.S. that the spying could lead to information that is "relevant" to an ongoing criminal investigation. The person spied on does not have to be the target of the investigation. This application must be granted and the government is not obligated to report to the court or tell the person spied upon what it has done.
b Nationwide roving wiretaps. FBI and CIA can now go from phone to phone, computer to computer without demonstrating that each is being used by a suspect or target of an order, or even specifically identifying the person targeted. The government may now serve a single Title III wiretap, FISA wiretap or pen/trap order on any person or entity nationwide, regardless of whether that person or entity is named in the order. The government need not make any showing to a court that the particular information or communication to be acquired is relevant to a criminal investigation. In the pen/trap or FISA situations, they do not even have to report where they served the order or what information they received. The EFF believes that the opportunities for abuse of these broad new powers are immense. For pen/trap orders, while ISPs or others who are not specifically named in the order do have the legal right to request certification from the Attorney General's office that the order applies to them, they have no right to request such confirmation from a court.
c ISPs hand over more user information. The law makes two changes to increase how much information the government may obtain about users from their ISPs or others who handle or store their online communications. First it allows ISPs to voluntarily hand over all "non-content" information to law enforcement with no need for any court order or subpoena. §212. Second, it expands the records that the government may seek with a simple subpoena (no court review required) to include records of session times and durations, temporarily assigned network (I.P.) addresses, and means and source of payments, including credit card or bank account numbers. §§210, 211.
d New definitions of terrorism expand scope of surveillance. One new definition of terrorism and three expansions of previous definitions also expand the scope of surveillance.  PATRIOT §802's definition of "domestic terrorism" (amending 18 USC §2331) raises concerns about legitimate protest activity being prosecuted as terrorism, especially if violence erupts, while additions to three existing definitions of terrorism (int'l terrorism per 18 USC §2331, terrorism transcending national borders per 18 USC §2332b, and federal terrorism per amended 18 USC §2332b(g)(5)(B)) expose more people to surveillance (and potential "harboring" and "material support" liability, §§803, 805).
2 Overbreadth with a lack of focus on terrorism. Several provisions of PATRIOT have no apparent connection to preventing terrorism. These include:
a Government spying on suspected computer trespassers with no need for court order. §217.
b Adding samples to DNA database for those convicted of "any crime of violence."  §503. This provision allows collection of DNA for terrorists, but then inexplicably also allows collection for the broad, non-terrorist category of "any crime of violence."
c Wiretaps now allowed for suspected violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. This includes anyone suspected of exceeding authorized access to a computer used in interstate commerce and thereby causing over $5000 worth of combined damage.
d Dramatic increases to the scope and penalties of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. These include: 1) raising the maximum penalty for violations to 10 years (from 5) for a first offense and 20 years (from 10) for a second offense; 2) ensuring that violators only need to intend to cause damage generally, not intend to cause damage or other specified harm over the $5,000 statutory damage threshold; 3) allowing aggregation of damages to different computers over a year to reach the $5,000 threshold; 4) enhancing punishment for violations involving any (not just $5,000) damage to a government computer involved in criminal justice or the military; 5) including damage to foreign computers involved in U.S. interstate commerce; 6) including state law offenses as priors for sentencing; 7) expanding the definition of loss to expressly include time spent on investigation, response, damage assessment and restoration.
3 Allows Americans to be More Easily Spied Upon by U.S. Foreign Intelligence Agencies. Just as the domestic law enforcement surveillance powers have expanded, the corollary powers under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act have also been greatly expanded, including:
a General Expansion of FISA Authority. FISA authority to spy on Americans or foreign persons in the U.S. (and those who communicate with them) increased from situations where obtaining foreign intelligence information is "the" purpose of the surveillance to anytime that it is "a significant purpose" of the surveillance.
b Increased information sharing between domestic law enforcement and intelligence. This is a partial repeal of the wall put up in the 1970s after the discovery that the FBI and CIA had been conducting investigations on over half a million Americans during the McCarthy era and afterwards, including the pervasive surveillance of Martin Luther King in the 1960s. It allows wiretap results, grand jury information and other evidence collected in a criminal case to be disclosed to the intelligence agencies when the information constitutes foreign intelligence information.
c FISA detour around federal domestic surveillance limitations; domestic detour around FISA limitations. Domestic surveillance limits can be skirted by the Attorney General, for instance, by obtaining a FISA wiretap against a U.S. person where "probable cause" does not exist, but when the person is suspected to be an agent of a foreign government. The information can then be shared with the FBI. The reverse is also true.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Neither bush, nor Cheney, nor the White House counsel have invoked the PA.
Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 06:55 PM by Straight Shooter
To use the PA as a one-size-fits-all cover for actions which smell of high crimes and misdeamnors would surely give rise to some very inflammatory reactions from Americans.

Your post is the first I've read that the despicable PA gives the buffoon in the Oval Office carte blanche to wipe his butt with the Constitution, which is what he's done.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. "telling a judge"
"serve a FISA wiretap"

Bush didn't even do any of that, that's the entire point. They went around all of this and spied on whoever they wanted, no oversight at all, no warrants, no FISA.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Actually, it's the authorization on the use of force that he's quoting
Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 07:21 PM by KevinJ
In their authorization of the use of force in the "war on terror," Congress basically wrote the administration a blank check, authorizing him to use, at his personal discretion, any and all methods deemed necessary and appropriate in the fight against terror. Mind you, I don't imagine this was quite what they had in mind, and more importantly, Congress itself had no authority to authorize the administration to violate the Constitution, which is precisely what's he's done by basically blowing off the Fourth Amendment.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Ah yes, Congressional [power
to violate the Constitution? Great point.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. Additional conservative legal scholars say it's impeachable..and more:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5648984
thread title (12/20 GD): Conservative Scholars Argue Bush’s Wiretapping Is An Impeachable Offense

Bush himself KNEW he was breaking the law as shown in his April 2004 comments:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5643625
thread title (12/20 GD): April 2004: Bush tells audiences Wiretaps Require a Court Order
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2323744
thread title (12/20 GD-P): Little Lord Pissypants is screwing with us bigtime! Lookie here!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5644904
thread title {12/20 GD): Bush 04: We only wiretap with warrants
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5646915
thread (12/20 GD): VIDEO-April 2004 Bush Court Orders Versus Dictator/King


Gonzales apparently LIED about how he would enforce the law in his Jan 2005 confirmation hearings:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5643708
thread title (12/20 GD): AmProg"The Truth About Bush's Warrantless Spying" (& Gonzo planned to LIE)


Behind this is the POTUS IS DICTATOR thinking of legal consultant John "Torture Memos" Yoo:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5643999
Thread title (12/20 GD): New LAT op/ed from JOHN YOO, the legal enabler of the IMPERIAL BUSH
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. Kick
High crimes and misdemeanors. Bush sez that as commander-in chief using congressional resolution authorizing use of military force against terrorist gives him the right to invade privacy of US citizens who have not been proved to be terrorists. Holding people without due process of law in worldwide prisons isn't bad enough. Now he believes he has the right to accuse/infer US citizens sre the enemy without due process of the law. Impeachment is the answer to stopping this dictatorial leader from doing additional damage to our Constitutional rights.
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
16. Some guy on Wolfie just now saying "Clinton did it, so why not".
Graham setting the record straight on what was and was not done by Clinton. Just caught a glimpse of it while passing through the living room.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Here's a pretty good rebuttal of that talking point
From Think Progress:

The Echelon Myth
Prominent right-wing bloggers – including Michelle Malkin, the Corner, Wizbang and Free Republic — are pushing the argument that President Bush’s warrantless domestic spying program isn’t news because the Clinton administration did the same thing.

The right-wing outlet NewsMax sums up the basic argument:

During the 1990’s under President Clinton, the National Security Agency monitored millions of private phone calls placed by U.S. citizens and citizens of other countries under a super secret program code-named Echelon…all of it done without a court order, let alone a catalyst like the 9/11 attacks.

That’s flatly false. The Clinton administration program, code-named Echelon, complied with FISA. Before any conversations of U.S. persons were targeted, a FISA warrant was obtained. CIA director George Tenet testified to this before Congress on 4/12/00:

I’m here today to discuss specific issues about and allegations regarding Signals Intelligence activities and the so-called Echelon Program of the National Security Agency…

There is a rigorous regime of checks and balances which we, the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency and the FBI scrupulously adhere to whenever conversations of U.S. persons are involved, whether directly or indirectly. We do not collect against U.S. persons unless they are agents of a foreign power as that term is defined in the law. We do not target their conversations for collection in the United States unless a FISA warrant has been obtained from the FISA court by the Justice Department.

Meanwhile, the position of the Bush administration is that they can bypass the FISA court and every other court, even when they are monitoring the communications of U.S. persons. It is the difference between following the law and breaking it.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/20/the-echelon-myth/
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. That's pretty much what Graham, and even Wolfie, was saying. I don't
think anyone besides the diehard "freeper types" are going to buy the GOP's latest defense.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. God, I hate that excuse for doing
the wrong thing, so and so did it so.....Sure, Saddam tortured so why not......Are we to be respectors of the law and human rights or not?
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madmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
21. Because I think Bush is incompetent and want him gone asap
I am probably biased on legal questions of him violating the law; that said if he thinks he has carte blanche to set aside the 4th amendment whenever he feels the need, even a disinterested observer is going to see a violation of federal law.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
22. I do believe he never consulted his lawyer before blurting this out.
I also believe Cheney may have set him up for a fall at the same time
looking innocent by defending his actions(for pure facade of looking
innocent)
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. You know, I was thinking the same thing.
That someone set up the chimp for a fall. Not only did they not get court orders, that were obviously very easy and practical to get, but then the chimp talks about it in public, on record. Someone wants the chimp to go down and they just set him up.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
24. Seems the brush is not only the executive branch of government
but he has now become the legislative and judicial. All bow down to King George.
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