Howard Dean Refuses to Apologize for Remarks

Democratic Candidates Spar at 'America Rocks the Vote' Debate in Boston

By Jim VandeHei and Dan Balz
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, November 4, 2003; 8:20 PM


BOSTON, Nov. 4 -- Former Vermont governor Howard Dean came under a fierce attack from several of his Democratic rivals here Tuesday night, who accused him of arrogance and insensitivity and demanded that he apologize for saying last week that he wanted to be the candidate for "guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."

Dean, saying, "I'm no bigot," declined to apologize for the comment and told his rivals the Democrats will never recapture the White House until they find a way to appeal to working class white voters in the South. "I make no apologies for reaching out to poor whites," he said.

The fireworks included some of the toughest exchanges yet among the Democratic presidential candidates and came in the opening minutes of a candidate debate aimed at young voters and hosted by CNN and Rock The Vote. They were triggered by a pointed question from a young African American in the audience who said he was "extremely offended" by Dean's statement, which was made to an Iowa reporter last week.

In his defense, Dean invoked the words of Martin Luther King Jr., who he said talked of bringing together the children of slaveowners and the children of slaves. Dean said Republicans had used .racial issues to appeal to working class southerners for three decades and that it was time for Democrats to put a stop to it.


more..................

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64780-2003Nov4.html

What a moran! What a slow learner. Could he say "I make no apology for reaching out to Americans of any race who need healthcare?" Nooooooo, he said he was reaching out to poor whites. On second thought his campaign can only be cynically using race since they must have went over this scenario numerous times planning for this debate

...do you wash your hands?

I'm not ashamed to admit it. Dean is absolutely correct in this approach.

Thanks for the input! I grew up poor and white myself only not in the South!

cause that's what Dean was referring to when he mentioned the confed flag. Whether he knew it or not....

That's why he's where he is!

I spoke w/my white southern father today. He told me, "around these parts (N.C.) Dean is the front runner."

That's why Dean is being piled on, not because of what he said. And there will be more, all of the way to the nomination.

Maybe it helps if you grew up in the south, to understand what Dean meant. To me it was a no brainer.

:hi:

That is just great to hear.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

I hope your Dad is right.

It floors me that this remark by Dean is causing such an uproar. Hell, Dean has been using this line in speeches for a year now. Why, oh why is it a big deal now, because he is the man to beat, the man out in front, the man with the hugh following, that's why.

Go Dean, go, go, go, all the way to the White House and boot the chimp's ass back to Texas!!

Seriously now, casual references to the Confederate Battle Standard are an affront to the poor whites of the south, a mixed signal to the rest of the country and a generally clumsy statement. I don't think it's crypto-racism, but it's ridiculously sloppy symbolism when he could have said "nascar sticker" or some other quasi-slur that's not so damned loaded.

The real issue is his recklessness of diction that keeps coming up. He could have simply defused the whole thing by saying "hey, bad choice of words on my part; I was trying to conjure an easy image" or something like that, but no, he's got the same tough-guy macho bullshit personality on a certain level that's so pervasive among conservatives. He can't back down, and can't see it from the other side.

People have taken this too far on both sides, but this kind of sloppy diction is exactly--and mind you, I mean EXACTLY--of the same stripe as saying "crusade" when talking about an important mission, yet being oblivious to larger connotations.

Yes, he's getting piled on because he's the front-runner. He's also playing the pity card for that, so take that into account too.

He comes off far more Autocratic than Democratic, and that is building him up more baggage than his admirers seem to realize.

Would you seriously not have had even the slightest whiff of indignation had Edwards done the same? More importantly, would you have lept to Edwards' aid with the same righteousness in a similar situation?

Kerry's right: "You can't be President and make a half-dozen gaffes a week."

earlier this year during a discussion about the Confederate Flag. He is being very dishonest.

Nice post, PurityofEssence.

Could Dean's gaffe streak indicate something more than reaching for the wrong word or symbol? Clearly he's a smart guy, and yet he's often in trouble. Kerry would like to demote the gaffes to the level of intellectual sloppiness, but that's an opportunistic and wishful charge. There's something else at work.

Dean's an angry guy. What you assess as his macho refusal to back down (and liken to the same tendency in conservatives) is one component of his anger. Another is the ready willingness to go nuclear with rhetoric: "cockroaches," for instance. It's a very apt insult, and I like Dean for making it. But it's also potentially suicidal, politically. And yet we have a governor, successful at that, so we know he's no amateur.

Most pols temper their speech because they're savvy enough to avoid bad consequences. Not Dean in this race. And it isn't that his gaffe-making is accidental as much as it is careless, or more accurately, carefree in a confident, damn-the-torpedos way. Whatever makes Dean court and nourish the public role of hothead is fundamental to him. It's easy to see that the passion is authentic. Were he a fraud, nobody would really care.

Obviously, a lot of people respond to this sizzling current and its refreshing immedaicy. Probably historical timing plays a big part; Dean taps into a widespread anger, much of it justifiable. He couldn't have run like this four years ago. He can now.

But there are several big obstacles to turning this into a nomination:

1) the Democratic Party isn't itself angry in any institutional sense (ie, it's not interested in any broad reforms and largely supports the status quo);
2) party leaders won't tolerate danger to their fiefdoms;
3) the other candidates want to shift the the race onto safer, less personally-risky ground;
4) corporate money won't go to an angry populist who could set loose broad currents of discontent in a population increasingly under corporate control (see points #1 and #2).

That's why the knives are out now, and it's growing likely that they can't be put away.

What Dean supporters will do if he is destroyed is something the party had better very carefully consider, as it really can't afford to lose any more friends. The party should also consider this possibility: only a fighter is likely to dislodge Bush. Kerry, Gephart, Edwards and Lieberman may be many things - some of them even good, ha, ha! - but fighters they are not. Dean is offering them a tasty, officially-approved target at which to practice throwing the punches they have spent their careers avoiding throwing at Republicans.

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Why don't ya get a fricken' job in his campaign since you seem to be on every single Dean thread telling him what he did wrong and what he should have done instead to make you happy, since it is all about you after all.

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I just want to say that I don't 'get' it. I don't understand the Dean phenomenon at all.

He seems so arrogant.

I recall The Daily Show running a clip (of course it was out of context - it was The Daily Show!) where Dean said, "I don't care that 70% of the American public doesn't agree with me" and then Jon Stewart immitated him, finishing his thought by puffing himself up to say, "Yeah, and the other 30% can go to h**l, too; because I'm going to be president!!!!!"

That pretty much sums up the arrogance I see from Dean.

Now, add that to his basically blowing Sharpton off this evening.

It scares me to think of having (another) president who doesn't have the humility?, the humanity?, whatever not to simply cop to an error. This one was a whopper, too; didn't anyone notice the audience reaction? I don't even think Sharpton's reaction was insincere; you know, it wasn't politics; it seemed to come right from the heart.

But, would Dean address that? NO!

sharpton is a freakin' "race baiter".

repellant. It was cheap political manipulation. I am sick of seeing racial themes used like this. It was, at least I thought, beneath him, as well as the others who jumped in directly after him.

:hi:

I will let our Socialist friends from the WSWS be the ones to slam Sharpton for his shameful role in the Brawley case.

New York lawsuit winds down
Sharpton, lawyers guilty of defamation in Brawley case
By David Walsh
25 July 1998

Those who argue that the truth or falsehood of Brawley's claims is irrelevant, considering the legacy of slavery and oppression of blacks in the US, play a particularly pernicious role. Lying has never advanced any progressive social cause.

There is a connection between the lying, defamatory character of the Brawley campaign and the role of racialism. Those, like Maddox, Mason and Sharpton, who preach racial animosity and strive for privileges for their particular color or nationality must lie in their presentation of social life. Society is not a collection of warring ethnic tribes; it is fundamentally divided along class lines, between the elite handful who control economic life and the vast majority of working people. Racialists make things up because their conceptions do not correspond to reality.

Brawley elicited sympathy not only from among nationalists at the time of her alleged attack, but no doubt as well from among black people and others outraged over the nature of the crime. If there is something to be learned here, it is the real danger of reacting to such a situation without weighing the facts and making a reasoned analysis. Such an analysis implies having a perspective on society and an understanding of its essential driving forces. Figures like Mason, Maddox and Sharpton, and their counterparts of every color and background, are dangerous individuals. They play on confusion, ignorance and prejudice to advance their own reactionary political aims. The lesson is: beware of demagogues!

http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/july1998/braw-j25.shtml

I recall The Daily Show running a clip (of course it was out of context - it was The Daily Show!) where Dean said, "I don't care that 70% of the American public doesn't agree with me" and then Jon Stewart immitated him, finishing his thought by puffing himself up to say, "Yeah, and the other 30% can go to h**l, too; because I'm going to be president!!!!!"


You base your opinion of Dean on a comedian's charicature of him?

Ponderous. Just ponderous.

I have had an uneasy feeling from Dean from the start. I just never understood his appeal.

The Daily Show quote was just a way to be lighthearted. Unfortunately, you have proved me right in that it seems people for Dean can't be lighthearted when it has anything to do with his candidacy.

Look, he'll probably be the candidate, so let's not get into a war over a difference of opinion, okay?

I'd really appreciate it ... just let the pondering go, okay?

There is way too much time to go to resign yourself. I don't believe that.

.... to you and way too many others all I can say is "something is happening here and you don't know what it is".

IMHO, most of the people who rag on Dean continually are those who had another horse in the race who is now hobbling out of the gate.

But apparently there are also those who just don't get it. Anyone who doesn't get it by now, well, there is nothing I can say that hasn't been said a hundred times here so I'll pass. Maybe some of you folks should try harder to 'get it' instead of assuming the rest of us are crazy. Dean did not leap to where he is on "nothing". What is so hard to understand about that?

and Dean is getting to go below Lieberman on my list...and that's low.

"Democratic presidential hopeful former Gov. Howard Dean (news - web sites) of Vermont, left, clasps hands with Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, right, moments after the televised Rock the Vote Democratic presidential debate at Boston's Faneuil Hall, Tuesday, Nov. 4, 2003. The two hopefuls had a heated exchanged during the debate concerning voters who display the Confederate flag."(AP Photo/Michael Dwyer, Pool)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=650235

Yeah, he said MLK was "killed". Like he had been run over by a bus or soemthing.

Hey Doc, MLK was ASSASSINATED! It was one of the most horrific political crimes in the 20th century!

My god, what about the time Dean said UH, that should have been UHM, damn him to the hell!

:eyes:

One seems more like a cult.

You write as if you believe Dean doesn't 'get' the MLK assassination. I don't believe Dean 'gets' anything!

I read someone refer to him as a 'soulless technocrat with no core beliefs' and I agree.

If you're gonna try to beat on Dean, you're gonna have to do better than he said that MLK was "killed."

I'm sorry but your being picky...killed...assassinated...doesn't matter...When Martin Luther King was shot...America lost a great and honerable person...not just for blacks...but for everyone...Just my opinion...

Now this is just my opinion and I'll probably get flamed for it but I don't care...it's time for blacks in the south to move on with the whole confederat flag issue...Blacks in this country have made great strides...great achievements...but that all goes to waste when they start up with that slavery crap...get off the crutch...!

The kid that asked that question...what does he have to complain about...he was born free right here in this country...he has every opportunity as the next guy...

Blacks in this country have every opportunity that others have...I lived in D.C. and I know this first hand...I've seen it...

Drop the racist crap and move on...get over it...

"Now this is just my opinion and I'll probably get flamed for it but I don't care...it's time for blacks in the south to move on with the whole confederat flag issue...Blacks in this country have made great strides...great achievements...but that all goes to waste when they start up with that slavery crap...get off the crutch...!"

Believe me, that is NOT just your opinion and I understand you don't care...but, please, have you studied history? Oh, say, the part about those who don't learn are condemned to repeat, or, oh, say, past is prologue. I'm a white in the North and I will not 'move on with the whole confederate flag issue'. That flag represented a group of traitors who used slave labor and tried to destroy the U.S.A. This is no small thing!

We're on the same wave length as the Guv! :loveya:

Yeah, yeah, yeah...politics is a rough game, but here is what Dean essentially said:


Southern voters who display the Confederate flag and southern black voters might be two groups that are percieved as diametrically opposed, but they share the same basic human needs; jobs, education and health care. The only way we can win is if we can get people of differing philosophies to stand together, realizing that their common needs and goals outweigh their differences. I want to be the candidate that speaks to these people.

This causes controversy why?

Maybe he'd get a pass if he said that they needed more voters like Zell Miller, which is basically what Edwards said yet there was hardly a peep from the DU Zell Haters Club?

:hi:

The explanation you just gave would include people who display the Nazi Swastika flag/symbol.

It doesn't.

If that were the case, we'd still be faced with a decision: Do we refuse to admit that they vote, or do we (without supporting their viewpoint) ask them to realize that they have more in common than they have differences with blacks/Jews/gays/whomever and invite them to work with us for change?

I find racism as distasteful as anybody, but what do we gain by alienating people rather than inviting them to work together to make all of our lives better (in a practical sense)? I've heard the "we don't need anybody who doesn't believe what we do" arguement, but I don't understand it. What we need, as a nation, is to foster dialogue. We don't need to foster racism, but we DO need to address it and encourage change. Do we best do that by refusing to address people with certain philosophies?

But it'd be in poor taste AND BAD STRATEGY to talk to a Jewish group about reaching out to the Swastika waving crowd.

And it's be TRAGIC if a candidate said "swastika waving crowd" when he was referring to white Christians in general.

There are better, less divisive and patronizing ways to talk about the subject.

It's a lack of sensitivity...

converstation are "Jumping The Shark"!

Maybe it isn't a cult-like mentality with those for Dean.

Maybe it's really ignorance of what the Confederate flag means; maybe they also don't 'get' the boycott of South Carolina, for one.

This is surprising to me in such a "PC" world!

is being done to try and discredit Dean though whatever desperate methods available. I see this as only making Dean Stronger!

nt

...when your candidate is behind Dean in the polls and you would even lie to bring him down.

I don't give anyone the benefit of me actually thinking they believe this twisted argument that relies on nit-picking, quoting out of context, race-baiting, and flat-out distortion.

Remember, four of these guys attacking him like to play politics as evidenced in thier role in passing the Iraq War Resolution long before it became apparent whether or not Iraq really had weapons of mass destruction.

to the IWR! They could never do worse than sending our Soldiers to die.

Instead of actually digging in to actually see what he's actually saying, and reading the entire statement, or the statement on his website, or the statement by Jesse Jackson Jr, or that he called the Confederate flag a "loathsome symbol" during this last debate, to see what he actually means before they accuse him (or even after for that matter) they're compulsively (hence the "wash your hands" comment) picking apart little things to see what they can twist into an accusation.

It's /shameful/, that someone would pollute the well of civil discourse on a serious issue that has serious consequences for our society. It's /shameful/, especially for the white people doing this, to abuse an issue that affects some peoples' every waking moment of their entire lives within our racist society for a temporary political advantage.

And to you people actually participating in this garbage, I want you to think about one thing - you might think that the little games being played by your candidate only messes with the minds of those other swing voters...but then can you trust them not to mess with /yours/?

I don't have a candidate! I am just ABB. However, maybe I'm older than you; or a different color; or, I don't know.

What I DO know is that using the Confederate flag is offensive. That's all there is to this for me. Of course, it doesn't help that Dean is seemingly insensitive to the Confederate flag and how it strikes a lot of people...but, don't write off critics by accusing us all of having other candidates.

I can't find one in the bunch to really get behind; I'll even vote for Dean in the end; seriously, it's ABB for me.

It's really not so threatening to have a difference of opinion, in this instance, clearly generated out of one person having a gut reaction to a symbol of hate (confederate flag) and another having no such reaction.

...he hates it. He called it a "loathsome symbol".

On edit (before someone decides to twist what I said beyond recognition, as is their favored tactic):

As well he /should/!

w/ why this wads some people's panties. I have been in an audience twice where Dean was speaking and taking questions and this observation was given voice. He also said it during the bushwhacked party conference call. Why - all of a sudden is this getting press? when he has been saying it for months?

and must have made some decisions on what to do about the leader.

If they get rid of Dean they will start eating each other.

Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean.

Watch them froth, watch them implode. Watch them lose the nomination.

Inform li'l ol' me....how have the other candidates done in their fundraising, again? More precisely, how many of the other candidates are getting the bulk of their money from small individual donations rather than the corps?

Well I'll be darned....no, I'll be DEANED!

If Dean weren't the frontrunner, nothing would have been said about his comment.

...as I've heard it mentioned twice already. Please, fill us in.

There was nothing wrong with the original comment, which was posted all over DU last week.

What's going on now is the other Dems are going out of their way to make him either reinterpret it in a way that IS offensive, or back away from saying something that they themselves would like to but fear to.

What was good (linguistically) about his specifically using the Confederate flag in the initial comment is that it points to a specific type of person we can easily picture in our minds.

Your words..."it points to a specific type of person we can easily picture in our minds."

Please re-read that. That is not a good thing.

That is interpreting a negative stereotype about certain people as a good thing because you can then picture it.

I don't mean to attack; honestly I don't. I'm also for ABB, but, my goodness.

The statement specifically ised the Confederate flag reference to show a dichotomy (as paraphrased below):

Southern voters who display the Confederate flag and southern black voters might be two groups that are percieved as diametrically opposed, but they share the same basic human needs; jobs, education and health care. The only way we can win is if we can get people of differing philosophies to stand together, realizing that their common needs and goals outweigh their differences. I want to be the candidate that speaks to these people.

Wouldn't have the same effect if you lost the "Confederate flag" reference or substituted "American flag" as other candidates have suggested, would it?

The image of confederate flag wavers is unquestionable. I am in northern Michigan and we have 'em all the way up here. White, poor, uneducated, mullet-haircuts the works. Two weeks ago I was in a store, passed a couple of these guys (one with a conf. flag on tee-shirt), over-heard one of 'em tough-talkin' about how some "ni----" was "gonna learn a lesson". One would think there were actually folks of color around here to hear these tough-guys. :eyes:

No one is trying to paint these folks in a positive light. In fact it seems to me Dean is trying to say it's time to enlighten them.

But you're not attacking and you're ABB. Mmm hmm. Sure.

Julie

That is interpreting a negative stereotype about certain people as a good thing because you can then picture it.

It's not just for us who picture it. Thanks to the publicity from this, the people Dean is speaking about just might hear about it and go 'hey, that's me he's talking about.'

The Dems are not going to win Southern voters by giving them a reason to vote against Bush: they already have a world of reasons and still lean to him. The Dems will only win the Southern vote by giving them something to vote for.

Dean says he wants to be the candidate that speaks to confederate flag holders.

and the republicans and Rovian dems like Kerry are selling it.

Sharpton looked like Kerry's gofer tonight.

Edwards' conference call with Gephardt and Kerry (to harm Dean)sure paid off in this event: Edwards piles on with Kerry and Sharpton playing the Swastika card (right out of the Rove playbook - very sharp(ton).

I only heard Dean saying he wanted to unite white and black people and that the confederate flag was a symbol of racism.

But I think Edwards and Kerry and even Sharpton hurt themselves with this approach (as did Leiberman) attacking Dean for reaching out to poor southern whites.

I think Dean wins. The Black vote - with Jesse Jackson Jr.'s endorsement is MUCH more likely than the reaction of this tres bourgeoisie Boston audience would indicate.

Believe me -- I am very conscious of how Dean could have avoided this minor flub. BUT - I am also aware that most people are smarter than to fall for the racist spinners (inclsuing Sharpton).

I am most disappointed in Edwards, though. He KNOWS much better than this. But I guess rednecks with confederate flags won't vote for him anyway. And Dean may actually WIN in South Carolina now.

So all is well.

Dean tried to say that, but you did a better job.

I really feel that Sharpton and Edwards were out of line on this one. I'm sure they knew what they were doing.

And I thought Braun was close to pointing it out. I lost a lot of respect for ol' Al tonight.

He had been on my Kucinich/Braun/Dean/Sharpton list but I'm rethinking that.

and if Dean thinks speaking to his rank and file up North about reaching out to the Confed flag waving crowd is actually going to appeal to either Southerners OR THE REBELS than he is dense.

very observant person who is working hard for our campaign. And he has to wade through a lot of muck along the way. Truth will out!

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."

Dean, making his first campaign foray into North Florida, spoke at a rally in Jacksonville then addressed more than 500 people at a luncheon of the Capital Tiger Bay Club.
…
Dean said he hopes to reassemble a coalition of conservative southern voters like President Franklin Roosevelt had in the "solid South" 70 years ago. Although his opposition to the war in Iraq and his criticism of the Bush tax cuts do not score well in polls in the South, Dean said he hopes working families will support his call for improving education and health care.
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/7181952.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=76824

Did these SOUTHERN, BLACK, Baptists have a problem with Dean's remarks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=73335

John Nichols: Rebel flag flap shows media failure

If you want to understand just about everything that is wrong with the way American politics is practiced these days - and especially with the malpractice of the media - consider the absurd controversy about Howard Dean's comment that "I want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."
…
What isn't being reported is this reality: Every single presidential candidate who is now expressing concern about Dean's remark has sat in meetings where political operatives, pollsters and consultants have discussed strategies for winning the votes of white working-class males. These voters, whose economic interests would be at least somewhat better served by Democratic policies but who tend to vote Republican for social and cultural reasons, have fueled the rise of the GOP in recent years. And Democrats are obsessed with figuring out how to reach them.

So why has the Dean comment proved to be so controversial? Good question. It has something to do with the desperation of the other candidates, who have had a hard time keeping up with the former Vermont governor's fund-raising juggernaut and highly effective grass-roots campaign. But, in truth, it has a lot more to do with the media.

Too many political reporters practice stenography to power. They simply take down what candidates have to say. This week, the other candidates are trying to paint Dean as the reincarnation of Jefferson Davis, and the media are dutifully reporting it.

More responsible and engaged media would stop to ask the deeper questions: Why do so many white working-class males vote against their own economic interests? Is it because they are racists who really do embrace the Confederacy's legacy? Is it because the Democratic Party has so abandoned populist economic messages that even voters in what were once traditional Democratic constituencies have lost faith in the party and its candidates? The answers to these questions are complicated; but they are at the core of any serious examination of our politics.

Unfortunately, most politicians are unwilling to engage in real discussions about race and economics, let alone the complex zones in which they intersect. And as the current controversy illustrates, most political reporters have lost the inclination, and perhaps even the ability, to demand better of the politicians.
…
http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/column/nichols/60451.php

or we wouldn't have a repuke governer in Georgia.

He said he was offended because of the stereotype of the Southern voter. He stated he came from that kind of atmosphere, but that no one he knew flew the Confederate flag.

IMHO, Dean's point would be very well taken if he had just said that people who are now locked out of the system, be they from the South or the North, the West or the East; be they any color, ethnicity or creed, all people share the same basic human needs. The only way we can get those needs met is to stand together, realizing our common needs and goals outweigh our differences.

The Confederate flag is a lightening rod; did you see the young African-American who asked Dean the question? Do you understand the hurt caused by that flag?

that don't realize the racially divisive nature of the Confederate flag? Some display it as a token of their "southern roots" or to support a "rebellious" spirit. The fact is, the Confederate flag means different things to different people.

It's not very different than Cleveland's "Chief Wahoo" mascot, The Atlanta "Braves", or the Washington "Redskins". Fans of those teams see tradition. Some Native Americans see bigotry.

I've been posting this quite a bit, but I truly believe that Dean's statement meant this:

Southern voters who display the Confederate flag and southern black voters might be two groups that are percieved as diametrically opposed, but they share the same basic human needs; jobs, education and health care. The only way we can win is if we can get people of differing philosophies to stand together, realizing that their common needs and goals outweigh their differences. I want to be the candidate that speaks to these people.

Taken in that context, I fail to see how anybody could take issue with this.

in an interview I saw on TV. Someone should do a Lexuss Nexuss on the hypocrite.

The ...OK, I'll use the word that has been avoided...the rednecks who ride around with a confederate flag in the backs of their pickups have ANY interest in standing together with ...well, I will not use the word most of them would use here..African Americans?

They don't want to find ways to work together...They want the jobs to which they are entitled...PERIOD... "Those kind" can have what's left or get out...preferably the latter.

The "candidate of the people who drive around with confederate flags in their pickups" is going to be someone who thinks like they think. They are not going to support anyone who thinks we should all just get along, as Rodney King so aptly put it. They want, most of them, to return to the white supremacist way of life...They are TERRIFIED of losing their "grip" on power.

I don't thik Governor Dean is a racist. I don't think he really wants to be the candidate of the confederate flag crowd. I think he used a poor choice of terminology to say what he wanted to say, and now is stubbornly refusing to admit that.

That stubborness, combined with his embrace of secrecy of his administration give me some pause about him. I think he needs to more full explain that as well...Secrecy scares me.

'Course, if he is the nominee, I will enthusiastically support him for the general election, since I am totally committed to to ABB!

Completely agree:

"I think he used a poor choice of terminology to say what he wanted to say, and now is stubbornly refusing to admit that."

Being stubborn may be good in some people's minds - Dean dug in and explained more about his position (which was helpful) - being stubborn may be bad in other people's minds - in the end no one said he was a bigot (not even Al) but being a leader means acknowledging when you could have expressed yourself better --- Dean was not able to do that.

A complete fluke...we ended up sitting at lunch together before the campaign. This guy is NOT a bigot. Ya'll are getting your tits in a wringer over nothing. He's right. Have you ever done any political canvassing? There are tons of poor people who are registered reptiles. The Repugs do nothing for them but give them the back of their hands. But they need convincing. We haven't reached out to them. Get a grip. Dean is a great guy. A real sensitive human who really cares about people.
Read about his accomplishments in Vermont.

:hi:

It's about whether or not the man can empathize...it seems he can't because, if he could, he would have had something less confrontive to say to the young man who asked the question at the debate...actually, he should have said something BEFORE this got blown up all out of proportion.

It concerns me that we may have a president who seemingly doesn't think he needs to respond to people's (mis)perceptions; that is most upsetting especially since this is the campaigning season for goodness sake!

… bring folks together against racism, while everyone else who piled on him look like oportunists.

While the language chosen was inflamatory to some, his position is correct. The truth is not always comforting. It is true and I have observed the poor white southern worker voting Republican when it is clearly not in their best interest.

Should the President refuse to improve the country and provide better jobs and healthcare coverage for everyone because some racists will benefit?

I have seen the bumper sticker "friends don't let friends vote republican". I think we should not even allow our enemies to vote republican, if it can be avoided by telling them the truth.

and remember flagrant racism and buzz word racism. I
believe he isn't a racist and chose words poorly but
he is letting this linger. It sucks energy away from
his good ideas by being bull headed about this. I am
concerned he won't be able to admit he is wrong/made
a mistake. This really might bother a lot of good
people who want a candidate who can face up to the
things they do. Bush can't. I would HATE it if Dean
turns weinie here. This statement unsettles a lot of
people who don't want nuance. They want truth and
guts. Show it, Governor. I would respect you more for
it.

I still can't get any of you Dean Haterz to make your case with a single fact. Not a one!

Howard Dean obviously reached out to southern working class whites - which made up the bulwark of President War's selection in 2000. Is that wrong?

If so, how?

Dean furthers our campaign's connection to the verboten "Southern working class whites"

are good, however, the Confederate flag is a buzzword. It cuts; it stops people from listening any further.

If he had said something about poor whites being pawns in the Republican game, great! However, he used that darn flag and now won't admit it just might have been wrong. How difficult is it to look at something from someone else's perspective?

hehe Hey Bevis, you just said Confederate Flag..

You want democrats to continue to sidestep and ignore issues that are vital to the futture of our party and country...

And I understand what he meant with the confederate flag remarks. But it was a stupid thing to say, IMO, and he did look arrogant tonight when he refused to apologize. He lost a LOT of ground with that audience. Did y'all even notice the audience reaction? It was lukewarm, at best, bordering on downright chilly. All he had to say was "I apologize if I offended any people of color. That was not my intention, here's what I meant". Instead he looked stubborn and arrogant, refusing to admit he'd made a mistake. This is not going to go over well with blacks or southerners. He's alienating the very people he claims to be trying to win over. My 2 cents.

he doesn't have anything to apologize for. And I don't think he has anything to say he's sorry for, either! Dean is the one with the intelligence and bravery to go after bush.

And shrub refuses to apologize about anything because he doesn't think he has anything to apologize for either. Are you glad about that? Are you proud of shrub's "intelligence and bravery" for standing up to the press and the Democrats?

"I don't need to explain why I said things. That's the interesting thing about being president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anyone an explanation."
-George W. Bush* Nov. 2002

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm not a Dean hater. I will vote for him if he gets the nomination. But I can't speak for other southerners and people of color. Time will tell, I guess. But it was obvious by the audience reaction that Dean lost some ground tonight. He's going to have to do some damage control, IMO.

do with bush...it's apples and freakin' oranges..so don't play the bush card with me.

I just think your explanation sounded eerily similar in tone to what shrub said in November 2002. And if Dean wants to win anything, he's going to have to make amends with blacks and southerners. That means APOLOGIZING for the remarks he made about the confederate flag. All he has to do is say, "I am sorry if I offended any southerners or people of color. They apparently misunderstood my remarks. Here is what I meant..." Is that so much to ask? Is Dean so arrogant that he can't concede the fact that he offended a good deal of black and southern voters?

I am not playing any "cards" here, btw, but as someone who was born and raised in the south, I'm just calling it as I see it.

...with the fact that he's been saying the same thing for months. They might not know that this was a coordinated effort. I hope they get the chance to see that.

And Dean is right not to apologize. I don't like the Confederate Flag myself, but I've spoken to more than a few people that are disenchanted with Bush, and looking for a new home. They've been sold wedge issues to vote against their interests for years, and someone who fends off typical Washington politics, and refuses to give in, appeals to them. And it doesn't hurt that they despise most of the Washington insiders that participated in this synchronized and shameful attack.

Furthermore, Dean is one of the candidates most likely to "buck the formula" and put forth an aggressive and inclusive agenda, ticket and cabinet. His campaign has demonstrated that they can pull off bold moves with stunning success, and they'll continue to do so. Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards...from them we can expect the same formulas, the same self-perpetuating cycles. If one of them wins the nomination, I'll go through the effort of making it to the polls to vote against Bush, but my sweat and blood they won't be getting.

second, that audience was mostly rich or wealthy college kids who according to most polls like Bush anyway (THEY are not at risk and probably do not KNOW anyone dying in Iraq).

Dean's mistake was saying something that the right wing would spin against him. But the guy is so damn straightforward that he does NOT try to mince cheesy words. He says what he means and he is RIGHT on this issue.

I like that about him.

But I suspect frankly that Jesse Jackson Jr (the Congressmen's) endorsement and defense will go a long way for Dean. Black college age students are, IMHO, more likely to be middle class and reactionary these days (since poor activists are not likely to get into such events) and they MIGHT fall for the spin.

So the audience's tepid reaction may be irrelevent.

But Dean needs to one more time use his original quote top clarify what he meant and I think it might help if he said that the whole flag issue is so sensitive that it was unwise to mention it - and he's sorry if anyone's feeling were hurt.

But goddamnit -- I feel like this is a solution a middle school dean would configure.

African Americans are much smarter than to fall for this right wing spin even coming from Sharpton's mouth.

to promote himself may just BACKFIRE! Yea! Jesse Jackson Jr and Sr!

thread with sentiments such as yours. Why is that so hard for them to see? My 2 cents. So, what do we have - 4 cents...

after the Democrats get done ripping each other apart and dismantling the party, it'll be Bush in a landslide.

Dem candidate is..bush will go scrub brush in 2005.

spewing from this thread, that's what scares me the most.

...but who would "fifty cent" vote for?

See - thugs and folks who follow thug culture like lemmings might fall for this Rovian spin.

But people who want to see Bush out of office and who understand WHY the race card is being played by Kerry and Sharpton and Edwards and Leiberman - THEY will still support what Dean said and support Dean himself.

Dean is the man who can win this race against Bush and the Bushzis will use all the deviousness they can to lie about what he stands for.

Unfortunately most americans are not that well educated on these kind of tactics and they fall for the superfivial bullshit.

Pity

Is Sharpton in bed with Kerry?

Cointelpro picked MLK's successor. Did the pick Jesse Jackson's as well?

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
NOVEMBER 1, 2003

Jackson Praises Dr. Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda To South
Statement By Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr.
Saturday, November 1, 2003

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10232



"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of
former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit
down together at a table of brotherhood."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
March on Washington
August 28, 1963


"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The
Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide
us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White
folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag
decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids
don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better
schools too."

Dr. Howard Dean
DNC Winter meeting
February 21, 2003


Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., today said, "This year we
celebrated the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's famous speech in front
of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. Forty years later, Dr. Howard Dean
is reminding us that the great task of uniting the northern black and
white urban poor and working class, with the southern black and white
rural poor and working class around common economic issues -- good
health care, high quality schools, and affordable housing -- is the
key to wrestling our democracy away from the race-oriented Republican
right-wing.

"Democrats were not competitive in the South in 2000, and we have
struggled to thrive, and in some instances survive, since Richard
Nixon and the Republican Party began using their race-based 'southern
strategy' in 1968. The use of race, cultural and social issues have
served to distract voters by keeping the focus off of economic issues
has been the basic strategy of Bush and the Republicans in the South.
That's why they make wedge issues out of prayer in school, the Ten
Commandments on public buildings, civil unions, the false allegation
that Democrats will take away hunter's gun rights, choice for women,
the controversy of having the words 'under God' in the Pledge of
Allegiance, and the Confederate Flag. Lest we forget, the Confederate
Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South,
and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out
how to come to grips with their own historic symbol.

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class
white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried
to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good
that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic
agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of
poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in
coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care,
education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004,"
concluded Cong. Jackson.


What Dean said sounds an AWFUL lot like what MLK said.

Poor white people need someone standing up for them. Every other race of people have their champions, why not poor white people?

cannot figure why. Lieberman prefers to be critical of Kerry and Clarke.

Lieberman has been the strawman @ DU for months. He never had a chance at either the presidential OR the vice-presidential nomination in 2004. Let it be.

sorry!

apologies!

should apologize for expressing an intent to pay attention to the southern vote.

Anyone else remember these numbers?

George W. Bush (R) 2,912,790 49
Al Gore (D) 2,912,253 49

President Gore got more votes than bush.

Okay, I'm a Texan FIRST, Southerner second.

My take on the unfolding events: I was so disappointed in the Dems who went on an attacking rampage. I don't understand why race has to be an issue that divides us so much in this country-- so much that we have to be careful of every word we use. We've PC-ed ourselves into a corner. And, this is OBVIOUS when the candidates admit they don't think Dean is a racist. Then why go on the rampage against him?

I don't think Dean was as clear on this issue as he could have been. I'm glad he did mention the endorsement by Rep. Jackson, though. I think that made Sharpton even angrier, though. I was disappointed in Edwards who really attacked Dean. He basically took the approach that Dean couldn't know a thing about how Southerners think because HE isn't a Southerner-- yet then Edwards went on to talk about how Zell Miller was out of touch with the South. News to Edwards: you can't have it both ways. Just because you are a Southerner doesn't mean you will automatically speak to Southern issues and it doesn't mean you will represent ALL Southerners. It's not a birth right. You have to earn it. I think Howard Dean is doing his best to earn it.

When I was 15 years old, I started making this custom jean jacket. It had all these patches and pearls and symbols and pins all over it (it was the 80's folks. Madonna. Cindy Lauper). Anyway, on the back I sewed a Confederate flag and below it a little patch map of the state of Texas. Why? I'm a Southerner, damn it! Well, when I actually learned what the flag meant (years later in school), I never wore that jacket again and I haven't to this day. You see, the Confederate flag was a Southern pride issue for me. It said "I'm from the South. You wish you had a flag of your own, damn Yankees". I had no idea the racial connotation it held.

Now, don't you think it's possible that there are others in the South who think that the flag is an issue of Southern pride? I did. Until I learned differently. Well, what if the group Howard Dean is talking about never learned differently? What if the people he is talking about (the ones who vote for Republicans--I'll call them uneducated because in my opinion that's what you must be if you are in their position--ie getting nothing to show for their vote)....so what if the people he is talking about haven't passed the milestone I did in understanding that it is flat wrong to fly the flag?

Well, it's something to think about. And it looks like Dean is the only candidate on that stage tonight that didn't leave those people in the dust.

I would say that there are people in the South tonight that Dean did NOT lose. And, there are people in the South tonight (like me) who say "John Edwards, if you think you are going to get my vote just because of your accent, you can think again!"

I was just very disappointed in the whole fiasco. We didn't look good as a party tonight. Not at all.........

is because there is a long-feud between Jesse Jackson and Sharpton that goes back many years.

Ok, before anyone attacks me as a newbie-I have been a member here for a while, I just lurk and never post-like a lot of people I suspect. And I am a black southerner(from Texas) so I am just going to speak for myself on this, since unlike a lot of people, I won't presume to think that I can speak for a whole group of people-I can only give my opinion. And I am not for or against any candidate-whoever the nominee is, I will vote for him/her and cross my fingers that they win.

All these Confederate flag threads are running together so I am just picking one to write into.

First, people are complaining that Dean has been saying this all along and why is it being complained about now: Who cares? People are just talking about it now because Sharpton heard about it and complained as was his right.

A lot of the responses to this on DU have been really bothering me and suggest a serious ignorance on the part of white(I presume) DU posters. First off, until this happened, people would praise Sharpton for his oratory and for being "funny" as if he was running for President to entertain and not to bring up issues that would not have otherwise been brought up if a black person had not chosen to run. And I think he knows he has no chance of winning, so if he brought this up, I think he was really disturbed by it. But when he complains, then the people who seemed to like what he was saying turn on him and use "race baiter" and 'Tawana Brawley" as if "we liked you when you were in the background, but you're getting to uppity, Al. Stay quiet and polite,don't cause trouble, don't do anything that might force us to really hear what you are saying." It's really ugly to my ears-it's like, as usual, black people are tolerated by whites as long as they don't stir things up too much and stay quiet and funny.

And when he does complain, some posters here bring up "Oh yeah, well my "black friend" supports Dean" "Well (fill-in-the-blank convenient black leader) is going to endorse Dean. It comes uncomfortably close to the Republican convention using black people as window dressing and doesn't really address the issues raised by Dean's statement and Sharpton's complaints.

And then people complain about racial issues even being brought up, as if "can't we just not talk about that? can't we move on?" Well, if Sharpton wasn't in the race, then major issues that are inextricably linked to race would not come up and black people would be taken for granted and only cursorily acknowledged. And I hate how people here use the term "PC" like right-wingers-complaining about "PC" is to my ears saying why can't those minorities be happy with what they have and stop bringing shit up all the time.
And I don't want to be pessimistic, but the idea of poor whites and black peopel uniting anytime soon seems far-fetched and pie-in-the sky to me. I don't see it happening in my lifetime-and I'm 26. Even poor whites have advantages and access to capital that blacks simply do not. And I have heard poor whites say "Yeah, I am poor, but at least I am white" It is still the advantage to have in the United States.

And yes, Dean's comment was ignorant about Southerners and did not take into account black people's feelings about the Confederate flag-again I can only speak for myself. I rarely see the flag in Texas at all but when I see it on a license plate or a bumper sticker or iron-on patch-it literally scares me. Still. Listen, The Civil War was 150 years ago. 150 years ago. That's no time at all. Black people were emancipated from slavery 150 years ago. The wounds are even rawer than many of you might think or want to bother thinking about.

Finally, I think a lot of people on here and and the presidential candidates need to think about who has been on their side the most in the past few elections, whose votes were disenfranchised leading to the theft of the election, whose get out the vote drives won you Michigan, nearly won you Florida, and helped you retain the Louisiana Senate seat and think about what black people's desires are-tend to the base and hear what we want before you start clumsily pandering to people that I see as enemies to black people.

Do Not have a problem with Dean and his passion for getting our Country back. There are always going to be some people who get upset no matter what ya do!

The Democratic party cannot afford to alienate the minority vote. Without it we lose in 2004. Period.

Dean should have, at the very least, apologized.

All he has to say is: "okay, so I used the wrong imagery" or something like that. The fact that his cocksure arrogance won't allow him to make even a slight adjustment like that just furthers his appearance of being an unrepentant know-it-all tough-guy.

It's never the crime; it's the cover-up. In this case, a little simple qualification would have served nicely. A politician with some true subtlety could have turned this to his advantage by pointing out the clumsiness of his choice of words.

This guy just always seems to be making pronouncements, issuing edicts and pontificating with his self-proclaimed superiority.

It's not just me; he's turning off many people with this.

I really wish you'd pull this out, take it to GD and post it. If we want to talk about race and racism in this election, then your post would be a great starting place. There really is so much to talk about.

If that Cleveland Indians logo is not racially offensive, I don't know what is.

The same Dems that bitched at Dean about his comments about poor whites, will be the same Dems that you will see pandering to those poor white when they campaign in the South.

A lot of demagoguery last night!

This whole article is pretty fair. The attack loses lots of steam without the theatrics.

snip>
The poll found Dean's younger supporters were the most committed, a finding reinforced by the large crowds of young voters who frequently flock to the Vermont Democrat's political rallies. Dean has plugged into many younger voters through the Internet, a popular communications tool for college-age students, and recently completed a tour of campuses. "They want authenticity," said Ben Coes of Harvard's Institute of Politics. "That's why Howard Dean is doing well."

Yihaw!

and so he has to watch what he does with the confederate
flag crap. After all, it DOES offend thousands of blacks
even if he didn't mean to do it. Maybe he wanted to reach
these redneck dudes somehow but at what cost? Bush is
just salivating for ways to torpedo him. I would hate to
think that months of hard good slog, if I may borrow
that phrase, gets hung up in a whirlpool of nowhere over
this. Either explain more or apologize. Being a yankee,
he could probably get a pass faster than say Edwards.

monotones. He has the power to energize and connect with a crowd in a way a more traditional politician can not. The downside to this is that when you stir up passion, you are bound to unintententially offend, and stir up resentment as well. I seriously doubt if any well-meaning person here is honestly offended by Dean's remarks. But many of us, including a significant amount of his supporters, wishes he would choose his words a little more carefully. It's not that what Dean is saying is wrong- it isn't- it's that he has a tendency to needlessly open himself up to mischaracterization by unscrupulous "cockroaches". Dean of course isn't perfect, but with a little tact and polish, he could keep the focus on his core message, without sacrificing the basic charm of straight-talking style.

Unfortunately, you can't have a honest debate about race in this country without it devolving in race-baiting defensiveness and emotionally charged platitudes. If the rest of the candidates could have shown Dean a basic degree of understanding, we all could be vigorously discussing the shortcomings of the Democrats current Southern strategy, and the merits of a fresh approach. This is a topic of vital importance to the health of our country and needs to be taken seriously. It's too bad we have candidates who would sacrifice a chance for serious debate in exchange for a gutter level political knee-capping. This type of response does nothing to change the vile dominance of the Republican Party in the South.

The real tragedy of this incident isn't Dean's well-meaning, but ill-chosen remarks, but rather the maddening endorsement of the play-it-safe, do-nothing racial attitudes which allow a cancerous status quo to fester unabated in the South- to the great detriment of us all.

Where's the Dean supporter who howled at me for "demagoguing the Confederate flag" the other night?

Since then your man has more or less adopted my line - and wisely so. (But still, Sharpton has the best last word.)

I continue to admire Dean for speaking out against the status quo on issues of war, health care, and particularly "cockroach"-infested Washington.

But as should be clear to him by now, he can't just reach blindly for his symbols and say whatever pops into his head. He demonstrated astonishing naivete on this one, and it has wounded him. How seriously, we'll see.

but then you stick your foot in your mouth, again, dammit.

Wake up or you will screw up 04.