Father in Pakistan Kills His 4 Daughters

From Yahoo news:

MULTAN, Pakistan - A father, angry that his eldest daughter had married against his wishes, slit her throat as she slept and then killed three of his other daughters in a remote village in eastern Pakistan, police said Saturday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051225/ap_on_re_as/pakistan_honor_killings;_ylt=Ao4eoCTlwIDuIXQKiQGLD7ys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-


Terrible. My daughter is visiting now. She heads for Iraq in a month or two.

our country invaded the most secular and accepting muslim country, and are rapidly turning it into a place where acts like this are common and accepted.

I hope your daughter stays safe. I do not pray, but I will keep her in my thoughts. I wish you happy holidays with your family, and hope for many more for you.

That's news to me


Please do a little research before casting disparaging comments upon this country. The war in Iraq is of questionable value, but these sick twisted people were doing this to their daughters a long time before we showed up.

Blame this evil upon the people who actually do it.

Iraq will become a Shia governed country because of our stupid meddling, these kinds of acts will be condoned there, as well.

I often romanticize my writing, and the ambiguity can confuse people. I reserve simplicity for the simple minded and believe that writing as I do is a compliment to the overall intelligence of DUers.

My statement was "the most secular and accepting muslim country" i.e. Iraq. Which was FAR more accepting, I never stated that we invaded Pakistan.

I said "acts LIKE this" not "this act," or "these acts" thereby implying that this act was included.

Women in Iraq were free to wear what they wished, to live free of burqas, to wear jeans, to have an education, to hold jobs, to walk around freely (w/o male family members), etc.

What happened was horrible, and in NO WAY am I blaming it on U.S. foreign policy, but our destabilization of Iraq has made it so that acts like this will be much more common. I look down the road and shudder.

You would do well to heed your own advice, but rather than do research, look at the nuance of language. I have had many an argument with friends b/c they rushed to judge, rather than figure out the use of pronouns.

Please, in the future, do not broadstoke people with the "Blame America First" brush.

in reference to a Honor Killing story in Pakistan. What else am I to think?

Also honor killing widely as far I know is not practiced in Iraq, but it is in Pakistan, your comment was "rapidly turning it into a place where acts like this are common and accepted". Aka: Pakistan.

I didn't mean to offend you, but the words you wrote were rather plain to me.

the poster made a reference to the fact that Iraq WAS quite a secular country, with many different religious groups that coexisted. Now, it is descending into chaos with the ills of intolerance and fundamentalism.

"Also honor killing widely as far I know is not practiced in Iraq"

Perhaps YOU should do some research, because it has become much more frequent in Iraq during the occupation. It is actually quite common in Iraq, while that was not the case before the invasion.

(It was in practice before the invasion, although rare, since Saddam evoked some (obscure and fringe) religious practices to boost loyalty after the Iraq-Iran war)

That poster is correct, as honor killings are rapidly becoming common and accepted.

Oh, and this is ignoring the "misery gangs" that are in Iraq as well.

list was a fundy, and thought the world too tempting for his family, so he killed all of them. then the bad tempered asshole ran for his life. being one of those who're blessed by looking 'normal' anywhere in usa, he quietly 'disappeared' aided undoubtedly by the social embarassment at the basic national moral code (jesus saves) turned on itself so grotesquely...the Simpsons had an episode featuring the discovery of the bodies of Mrs List and her children in front of fireplace....John List was the inventor of 'chicken caccitore'(?sp?) while working as a cook years later. He had all the advantages that the bad tempered psycho papa in Pakistan probably never had, but the psycho in Pakistan will be known as a muslim, which explains his madness....

Simon Rios didn't kill his wife and daughters because of his religious belief system.

Also, I seriously doubt this guy will get off unless he pleads insanity, even at that he will be in custody for a looong time

As for this guy in Pakistan, they say he was arrested, probably to save his ass from reprisals. He will probably be fined and beaten and let go.

Hundreds of women are killed in Pakistan every year, many by male relatives, after they are accused of staining their families' honor by having affairs or marrying for love without family consent.

That certainly happens everyday in this country :sarcasm:

and many of them are encouraged by "religious" thinking. People don't call them honor killings in the U.S., but as the poster above said, the victims are just as dead.

I also agree with the above poster who noted that this sort of thing is becoming more prevalent in Iraq thanks to our invasion and occupation of that country. We're spreading chaos and horror around the world, making murders more likely everywhere.

We have murders at home, our war-mongering encourages murders abroad. We have a lot to answer for.

And yes, I am "blaming America first." I'm a citizen of this country and I have an obligation to point out its flaws.

murdered. And killing someone over chores is hardly a good reason, don't you think?

"Whatever you do, in thought, word, and deed . . . "

As an example, I had friends who prayed for guidance about any purchase over $5. The husband is the head of the household, and the wife's duty is to submit to his will if there is a disagreement. Yes, yes, I know the rest of the scripture about the husband loving the wife even as Christ loved the church, but the bottom line is still the husband gets the last word.

Some people are just plain nutz and when you add religion into the equation it can be really bad.

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shooting up restaurants and offices full of innocent people; that mother a couple of years ago, who drowned all of her 5 or 6 children; wife-beatings, child abuse, gun violence of all kinds, and official execution even of reformed convicts, and likely some innocent ones--not to mention a homocidal president who ordered the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis--we must not cast stones. The triggers for rage, madness and murder may be different in different cultures, but our own scene, with its supposed "Christian" roots, is, a) not all that far away in time from witch-burnings and "chastity belts," and, b) still rife with sexist violence.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't trow stones.
We think our culture is so much better than others, but we have some horrible crimes happening right under our noses.

When someone in this country commit a horrible crime, they normally are punished to the fullest extent of the law, sometimes even with their own life.

When honor killing are committed in most Islamic countries, not only is it an accepted practice, they normally either spend under a year in jail or are let go scott free based on Islamic teaching defense.

So I do think our culture is a tad bit more civilized than the average Islamic country

http://www.secularislam.org/women/honor.htm

get off on an insanity defense-and then we all cry that they are sick and need help.
Who is to say that this guy who killed all his daughters, even the ones who were completely innocent of any wrong doing in his eyes, is sane?

get off on insanity pleas? very very small, i think. even some that I think are insane don't get it.

because our crime solving rates aren't that high.
I am not sure even fifty percent of murders results in conviction and punishment.

On top of this, women who are charged with the murder of their partners have the least extensive criminal records of any group of convicted offenders. Yet the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence reports that the average prison sentence of men who kill their female partners ranges from two to six years, while women who kill their partners are sentenced to an average of 15 years. In states ranging from Florida to South Carolina, many are serving life sentences without the possibility of parole.

-snip-

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2422/

Or there about. Now this is with the decline in Murders since the 1960s (Through a frightening fact was the increase in murders by Non-friends and relatives since the 1980s, through these are less than 5% of all Murders).

Very few Murders are NOT solved. Now Burglaries and other crimes have high non-solution rates, but Murder does not.

about 50 %. And conviction, even if it was 98 %, would only mean that of people that are charged and go to trial, 98 % get convicted. It has nothing to do with how many murders are actually solved.

In New York City that rates was 90% in the 1950s, went as high as 74% in the 1983 but never fell below 57% (and that only for two years, 1979 and 1981). New York has beaten the national rate since that time.
http://www.lib.jjay.cuny.edu/len/96/30nov/html/feature.html

The FBI Statistics on Cleared cases for 2004 says 62.4 % of all Murders were cleared by an Arrest in 2004:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_cleared/index.html

Please note the statistics do have a built in prejudice, if a murder is NOT cleared by arrest in 2004 but cleared in 2005, it is treated as an uncleared Murder in 2004 but a Cleared Murder in 2005. Given the constant drop in Murders since the 1960s you have a built in prejudice keeping murder clearance rates DOWN. Another factor is a Murder NOT cleared by Arrest for example if the Murderer DIED subsequent to the Murder OR he or she skips and can NOT be found. The Murder thus can not be Cleared by arrest, but the Murderer is known. My point is it is very rare to have an unsolved Murder.

FBI Statistics are one year snapshots of crime. This gives us an idea of what is happening but does NOT give us an overall picture. Thus 68% of all Murderers are arrested within the same year as the crime. Up to 30% are arrested in the following years (or the crime is re-solved otherwise, for example I know one police officer told me he only had one unsolved murder, but he knew where the murderer was, he had been killed in a subsequent Murder). Such deaths (which is NOT uncommon in the drug business) are the most common type of Murder where no arrest is made (No witnesses, and even the Defendant can no longer testify).

Furthermore the FBI collects rates from all over the country and Suicides are often added to the collection of homicide (Through not by the FBI, but the FBI is just collecting data supplied to them by local police departments who does the count they want). By definition Suicides can NOT end in arrest (the person who KILLED is dead by his or her own hand i.e. he or she Murdered himself or herself). Thus such a "Murder" can NOT be cleared by an arrest. In some Areas it is counted as a unsolved Murder (Through for FBI statistical purposes it is NOT suppose to be, but it happens).

Once you get into the statistics and how the statistics are derived you start to see the problems is citing the Statistics without considering possible errors. The Errors are all in under-counting solved murders not in under-counting Murders. Thus most cities report 90-95 % of all murders solved through not always in the same year as the murder occurred.

My point is very few people get away with murder. It is to high a priority crime for police to treat lightly (and to good a point on their Police Record NOT to solve if it can be). Regarding other crimes the rates are much worse (For example only 50% of all Violent Crime are result in Arrest, and that includes Murder in the 50% rate, and non-violent crime are rates are even lower, basically in the teens). Do not confuse the much lower reporting rate for other crime (and the much lower solution rate for such crimes) compared to Murder. With Murder you have a body, and in most Police Department for an office to solve a Murder looks good on his record so Officers spend the time and money to solve murders while leaving other crimes go.

It sure ain't happening where I live.

And people's perception of those Crime Rate. There was a difference between Actual Crime Rate and perceived Crime rate. The Interesting fact was the difference varied NOT on education, sex or income (or any other grouping or classification) but how much television people watched. The more television the higher such people believe the crime rate was (Over what the Crime rate actually was), the less Television the closer their perception of the Crime rate reflected the Actual Crime rate.

This is true even over time, the peak of high crime in the US was in the 1960s (it has been in declined ever since) but people's perception of Crime has INCREASED since the 1960s do to increase Television watching since the 1960s.

Given the above I would suggest you look at your actual Murder and Crime rate to see what there are NOT what you believe they are. There are some interesting web cite on that today on both local and national crime, you need to look at them instead of going by what is said on Television.

I don't think we're any more civilized. For every one of these types of "muslim" crimes, we have 100 "christian" guys beating their wives and kids. Or some rich athlete killing his wife and then getting off cuz he's rich.

Many of today's Islamic cultures were "civilized" by any reasonable measure when my european ancestors were still living in wattle and daub huts with their livestock and their fleas, killing Romans and Norsemen with clubs. Sheesh-- you're talking about some of the oldest, most enduring civilizations on Earth.

If the "oldest, most enduring civilizations on Earth" think honor killing is an acceptable practice, maybe it's time for those enduring civilizations to either change or move on the ash heap of history.

"xenophobia" Strange word to accuse me of having a superior viewpoint that our civilization is better then one that is barbaric and backward enough to kill their own children to restore honor to a family???

O.K. You can think that if you want to.

Many Islamic countries do not practice honor killings, and a new one was added to the list because of a US invasion.

You can look at A LOT of fundamentalist Islamic countries that have become that way because Uncle Sam thought it would be beneficial to the US' base interests. Iran, where we toppled the elected government and replaced it with the Shah, which led to the Islamic Revolution. Afghanistan, where we supported the Mujahadeen. Iraq, where we invaded, causing a fundamentalist tide. Saudi Arabia, where we continue to support a government that does not let women drive cars.

The melting pot seems to be calling the kettle black*....

It's not about culture, it's about the present political situation. Turkey has secularized, and is leaps and bounds ahead of the US in terms of seperating church and state. Is their culture "superior" to ours? Please.... Xenophobic? I'd say so.

*-Sage Francis

>> So I do think our culture is a tad bit more civilized than the average Islamic country.

Sad that we - who consider ourselves progressive - would go along with such a general statement :-(

And what the hell is wrong with bitching about some horrible crime and the crap behind it jsut because it does not involve america bashing?

Seems to me would could have a thread about the evils of some country and what a shame it is and some folks would pipe in 'that is ok, we are worse so let's not critize anyone else'. What the hell is that all about??

I think many here can see an issue that needs addressed at a cultural level - an issue that is outside our own issues (which we have plenty of threads on anyway). So what if we have problems too, does that mean we cannot look at other problems and try help at same time?

This doesn't sound religious as much as cultural and pecuniary.

The father probably was negotiating the highest price for selling his daughter(s) into marriage and she thrwarted him.

have followed in the oldest daughter's footsteps. How is this guys reasons any different than those of Andrea Yates, for example? She killed her children because she thought they weren't developing properly. He killed his children because one day they might follow in the footsteps of his oldest daughter. He doesn't sound exactly rational either, does he?

if I understand the circumstances correctly. She believed that if she didn't kill her children while they were still innocent, that they would sin and turn away from Christ, and then be condemned to an eternity in Hell. She killed her children to save them from Hell and insure that they got into Heaven.

That seems to qualify much more as a religious murder than the one in Pakistan, though ultimately the end result is the same. The children are just as dead, whatever the motivation.

here, we automatically assume these people are insane, and need help. This guy who killed his four daughters could probably benefit from a stay in a mental hospital as well.
He is sick, and need help. Anybody who thinks this guy committed a horrible crime obviously doesn't understand mental illness.
Any punishment for him doesn't make sense, because he is so obviously insane.

this guy just sounds like a sociopath. A very big difference medically and legally. I wouldn't call Yates' killing of her children religious per se.

How can you diagnose him, based on the skimpy information given about the situation? But I find that men murdering their kids usually get a lot less sympathy from anyone, then when a woman does it.

From everything I read concerning that case, all the danger signs were there. I'm not saying her doctor and family ought to have foreseen that she'd become violent, but she was clearly dangerously ill.

I mean, he didn't kill just an older woman for adultery, he killed his younger daughters too. I doubt honor would demand he killed the ones who didn't do anything at all.

Her actions were definitely not something unexpected by her family or doctors.

but that charge may not be true, either.

Speaking to AP in the back of police pickup truck late Tuesday as he was shifted to a prison in the city of Multan, Ahmed showed no contrition. Appearing disheveled but composed, he said he killed Muqadas because she had committed adultery, and his daughters because he didn't want them to do the same when they grew up.

He said he bought a butcher's knife and a machete after midday prayers on Friday and hid them in the house where he carried out the killings.

"I thought the younger girls would do what their eldest sister had done, so they should be eliminated," he said, his hands cuffed, his face unshaven. "We are poor people and we have nothing else to protect but our honor."

Despite Ahmed's contention that Muqadas had committed adultery - a claim made by her husband - the rights commission reported that according to local people, Muqadas had fled her husband because he had abused her and forced her to work in a brick-making factory.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PAKISTAN_HONOR_KILLINGS?SITE=NCBER&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Airing of Grievances.

Occasionally DUers respond to news of a tragedy by making snarky references to TV shows or movies. This isn't a sitcom episode. It's slaughter.

Women are nothing...

in his society...

So sad ...

We would never dream of calling ourselves barbarian, though, since killing your children over chores or because you are having a bad day at work is so understandable, acceptable and civilized.

"“We are poor people and we have nothing else to protect but our honor.”

Last night I was reading a blog (can't remember which one or I'd link it) where the writer was discussing fundamentalist religion in the impoverished Deep South. She said that she believed rural people there cling to religion and so-called "traditional values" because they've been stripped of almost everything that supported them (i.e., well-paying jobs) in the past. They don't see how the very political and religious leaders they follow are directly responsible for that. The parallels are disturbing.

nothing strikes me as more ironic than a preacher telling a poor parish how to accept the will of the Lord and that their lives of misery and want will be made better if they vote for a republican...

the corporatists are more responsible for the living conditions...but the religious leaders are accessories since they try and calm the poor down and keep them from eating the rich.

They work hand in hand. Leo Strauss, the ideological granddaddy of the neo-cons, said that separating church and state was a big mistake on the part of the Founding Fathers. The Republicans are tying their damndest to 'rectify' that.

trouble,,

girls are not supposed to be educated, so they will submit to their (usually older) husbands.. They are merely vessels to produce the next generation..and servants to the menfolk in the family...

The men with money can buy a wife whenever he wants, but with women locked behind walls and unavailable to the poorer young men, is it any surprise that there are so many angry young men, willing to die for a chance at all those women who are "waiting for him" on the other side?

"Hundreds of women are killed in Pakistan every year, many by male relatives, after they are accused of staining their families' honor by having affairs or marrying for love without family consent."

In America we have horrifing statitics as well;
http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

It's a world wide social disease whether caused by mental illness, culture or sexism.

killing an unfaithful spouse. I don't even understand what the deep offense is of the daughter doing her own thing?

Not considered a pathology in some cultures.
It is a matter of property rights.
Sickening.

but what is the nexus between property rights and honor? If my sheep gets out of its pen and has sex with the neighbors sheep, I don't feel dishonored and slaughter the sheep and all my other sheep. I just put the sheep back in the pen and continue using it like I did before. In other words I still dont get it.

Prosecutor: Dad admits killings

WAUKEGAN, Illinois (CNN) -- An ex-convict has admitted punching, kicking and stabbing to death his 8-year-old daughter and her 9-year-old best friend on Mother's Day, prosecutors in suburban Chicago said.

Jerry Hobbs, 34, was charged Wednesday with two counts of first-degree murder and denied bond, Lake County State's Attorney Michael Waller said.

Hobbs could face the death penalty if convicted.

Prosecutors are calling the killings "a slaughter." Laura Hobbs was stabbed 20 times and Krystal Tobias was stabbed 11 times, they said.

The second-grade classmates were found dead Monday, a day after they were last seen riding their bikes.

Their killings have shaken the town of Zion, about 40 miles north of Chicago.

Hobbs has told authorities he thought his daughter was "having too much latitude as to what she can and can't do," said Jeffrey Pavletic, chief deputy of the Lake County state's attorney's criminal division.

Of course, those are not likely to be honor murders, but how does being murdered for not doing chores or not listening to the father makes it any better?

It happens in the U.S.

The reason I ask is that the Shiite have the concept of Temporary Marriages (Which can be for one night), this is rejected by Sunnis. Outside of Iran, most of the world Moslems are Sunnis Not Shiite. The Shiite homeland is Iran, Eastern Iraq, the Persian Gulf States and Eastern Saudi Arabia (Through the Persian Gulf States and Saudi Arabia are ruled by Sunnis applying Sunni Law to Shiite majorities).

Thus my question is Honor Killings Moslem, or just Sunni in nature (and I will consider that it is a holdover concept from pre-Moslem and Pre-Christian Times). The stories I have read on Honor Killings are among Palestinians, Pakistanis, and Afghans (All of whom tend to be Sunnis Not Shiites).

Now I mention pre-Moslem/Pre-Christian Culture may be a factor for even among some "Christians" in the Middle-east you have the concept that the only man who can look at them are their husbands or other male relatives (and this is the quickest way for a man to get killed in those Tribes). The Afghans Honor Killings tend to be more tribal than Religious in Nature (and so do the Honor Killings in Pakistan). Please note the Pat hans live on both sides of the Pakistan-Afghanistan border and it is from the areas Controlled by the Pat hans that you hear most of the honor killing occurring. You just do not hear of it among the rest of the Moslem world (Through I have read about it among Palestinians). Now this may just be a based reporting basis, i.e. the countries themselves cover up such killings or the American Media covers it up for such countries are our allies.

As to Iran, you do hear of executions of women for adultery and other sex crimes but not Honor Killings. I suspect, given the concept of Temporary Marriages, such honor killings just do not happen in Iran (Or happen as often as such killings happen in the US). Any body read anything about this? Is Honor Killings Tribal, Moslem, Sunni or Shiite? I suspect Tribal more than religion but does anyone know one way or another?

although religon is part of his cultural make-up, if you get my meaning. There was a case just recently of a father and his sons convicted for an 'honour' killing in the UK.

Here's a homegrown guy who just kiiled his wife, daughter, the daughter's boyfriend and the family dog because he had a bad day at work:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051229/NEWS0103/512290364
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051229/NEWS0103/512290366

I haven't heard of it. Bad day at work must be a much better reason for a murder than supposedly sullied honor.

Bet if the guy was a Muslim this would be headline news on every major media outlet.

http://paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=129608

A local woman, Ms Salma Bibi who underwent her third consecutive marriage due to "addiction to marriages", was killed along with her third husband, by unknown assailants. The police has registered a case on behest of the son of the deceased woman, Sarfraz Ahmad of Chak No. 41, from her first husband, against her second husband, Shabir Baloch. The deceased woman had first married Abdul Jabbar, followed by Shabir Baloch of Gojra. Her third and last marriage was consummated with Muhammad Khan of Sialkot .

Both killed were shot dead while asleep. According to Sarfraz, Shabbir Baloch had killed his mother and her third husband because of this "marital rivalry".

Oh, there's a unique cultural phenomenon.