Minnesota Zoo's baby dolphin dies in accident....

www.startribune.com

is it appropriate to 'train' these creatures to entertain us?



Harley, the 7-month old dolphin at the Minnesota Zoo, died Saturday afternoon in an accident.

The 5½-foot-long, 120-pound male had been learning to swim between two back pools with his mother when he jumped out of the water and hit his head, according to Kevin Willis, director of biological programs at the zoo in Apple Valley.

The two back pools are separated by a 6-foot-long, 6-foot-wide, 6-foot-deep channel. Gates separate the back pools and the presentation pool where dolphin shows are performed.

Harley was just learning to negotiate his way between the east and west pools, and the training was going well, Willis said.

A staff member working the back pools saw Harley and his mother, Rio, swim from one pool to the other. Rio then swam back across the channel, but Harley trailed behind. Either frightened or confused, he jumped out of the water and hit his head on the deck.

appropriate at all.

individual attention daily and show that they enjoy human interaction, why?

If the performance highlights what the animal can do naturally, why?

And please don't make the mistaken assertion that animals can't or don't enjoy performing.

If the animal died how can you be so quick to assume the animal was in a safe and loving environment? There are places like out of africa in arizona which I greatly respect, but then there are places that do not treat animals with the appropriate care or living conditions where the animal isn't going to break its skull open.

I think the assertion was they shouldn't be forced to do things for our entertainment, I understand some animals grow bonds and enjoy it, but it isn't our place to judge whether an animal enjoys it or not...it's the animal's. Given human beings' inability to comprehend most animals' enjoyment, I think that it's almost every case we do not have the right to do this to them, even if there is the possibility of the animals' enjoyment.

and ask again.

Even Ric O'Barry (the trainer of "Flipper") has come out against this sort of "entertainment" as well as the swim with the dolphins type programs.

As far as your assumption that the animals DO enjoy performing, I trust you have the tape of one of these animals saying just that. Additionally, your suggestions would also cover circus animals, which don't highlight what the animal can do naturally. It's beaten into them to obey, and so then they do. I don't see too many elephants waliking on their hind legs in Africa. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, though.

a commodity but not well treated at all. Those in the 'know' about the animals (the biologists, etc.) were shot down by those with the $$$ every time. No doubt there's more to this story than meets the eye. He no longer works there.

:cry:

What a fucking waste of a life. :cry:

God, what a terrible loss. I really loathe such places.

:cry:

Nellie, the first bottlenosed dolphin born in captivity, is now fifty-two or fifty-three years old. Her birthday is next month.

In 1978, Nellie gave birth to a girl dolphin. She was placed on maternity leave for at least two years. But Nellie and her baby (Baby June... I believe her name has been changed since then) were often placed in the big pool for exercise. While they were in the big pool, Nellie taught Baby June the tricks she had been taught for the show.

These days, Nellie is retired, but sometimes she still wants to perform in the shows. If she so indicates, I believe the allow her to do so (at least I haven't heard that they've changed that policy).

I'd like to point out that dolphin tricks for performances are usually based on the natural acitivities of dolphins.

I have a real problems, though, of expecting dolphins to perfrom tricks in such a small enclosure. Also, of requiring what is most likely a still nursing mother dolphin to perform. Baby dolphins stay very close to their mothers for several years.

(Just as a side note for those who would release captive dolphins) Dolphins born and bred in captivity do not have the ability to survive in the wild. They have no idea of how to catch their own food.

David and Melba Caldwell were dolphin communications experts who once did research at Marineland. In their 1972 book, they related a story about a well-meaning, but dolphin-ignorant person who once tried to feed a live fish to a dolphin, caugh wild, who had lived in captivity for several years.

The dolphin took the fish, but the fish started flapping around in the dolphin's mouth. The dolphin squawked and immediately dropped the fish. It was so traumatized by the incident that it would not eat for a day afterward...


Caldwell, David K. and Melba C. Caldwell. The World of the Bottlenose Dolphin. New York: J.B. Lippincott Company, 1972.

Caldwell, Melba C., David K. Caldwell, and Peter L. Tyack. "Review of the Signature-Whistle Hypothesis for the Atlantic Bottlenose Dolphin." In The Bottlenose Dolphin, edited by Stephen Leatherwood and Randall R. Reeves, pp. 199-234. San Diego: Academic Press, Inc., 1990.

It really puts the story in perspective for me. May I suggest that you write the zoo or the Star-Tribune. I can't imagine the zoo changing their policy about dolphins performing but they might at least stop the practice during the nursing period. :thumbsup:

:cry:

this breaks my heart....

NO!!! Using these beautiful creatures to entertain us is not appropriate at all!

this sounds like a tragic accident

training is a key part of providing an enriched environment for intelligent creatures, trained performing parrots live longer than parrots that are not trained and way longer than parrots in the wild

i don't know the statistics for dolphins but i would be surprised if the statistics were much different

an intelligent creature seeks to use its mind and its body, a social creature often craves attention and appreciation, dolphins are both intelligent and social

yes, they should be given the opportunity for training, most seem to greatly enjoy it

would you be a happy person if you were not trained, socialized, and educated, i don't think so, give them the same credit if you truly respect their intelligence

accidents do happen in this life, we are not in the perfect world, but we shouldn't seize on every accident as an excuse to take away another privilege or another pleasure from ourselves and our animal companions

There's no reason to exploit them for human entertainment except greed.

so the comment abt exploiting them being greed is not relevant to the discussion

i just hope you do not breed or work w. animals if you are not willing to train them

those who work w. animals know the importance of training and also know the joy that animals take in performing

this was a sad accident but on average performing animals live longer, they clearly benefit from training both mentally and physically

it's sad people would deny this v. basic form of enrichment to a dolphin

In nature, dolphins do not naturally bob balloons with their nose. They do, however, jump from different areas of the water. So it all depends on what kind of training you're refering to. Some places rehibilitate animals so they can be released into the wild or into a protected wildlife enclosure. Others train them to be able to be the bad guys in the new narnia movie. I strongly hope you're able to tell which one is right and which one is wrong from the given analogies.

A dolphin is not bred for human companionship and does not need human care. Put simply, a dolphin belongs in the ocean with other dolphins. Those dolphins currently in captivity and unable to be released deserve to live out their days in safe and ocean-like environments rather than overgrown swimming pools created for dolphin shows.

Dolphins are at least as smart as human children and in some ways smarter. They're intensely social, capable of distinguishing many others of their species by sound or sight. Their bodies are built to range over great distances and to hunt as part of a social group. In captivity they are kept in large swimming pools (often complete with chlorine, which is bad for their skin and causes irritations which become infected and sometimes lead to the dolphin's death) where there is much less intellectual stimulation than they would receive in a similar amount of open ocean, they are unable to use their predatory instincts and are instead fed dead fish. Housed by flat walls that render their sonar (a dolphin's primary sense) useless, for a dolphin captivity in a concrete pool is the equivalent of rearing a sighted human in a dark room.

Despite the lack of predators and the addition of vitamins, vaccines and regular medical care, dolphins live shorter lives in captivity than they do in the wild. Many show signs of distress and even mental illness, such as aggression toward others of their species and toward human trainers, they develop ulcers, they engage in obsessive behaviors such as peeking constantly from the water or swimming back and forth.

This is not stimulation , this is the neglect and torture of a highly intelligent animal. Worse, it's done for no reason but human greed. The argument you used (and it's a common one in defending marine mammal captivity) is that people must see dolphins to care about them and speak up for their wild brethren. This is simply bullshit. Most human beings will never see a blue whale or a humpback, but they want those animals protected. The number of people who've seen a great white shark up close is a small one (as there's only one that was held in captivity successfully, and that was only for a few months) but they are legally protected and people speak up for their interests. As far as I know no human eye has ever beheld a live giant squid, but people are fascinated by them and if we ever find out enough about them to do so, people will undoubtedly stand up for their interests. Even if no human child ever saw a bottle-nosed dolphin bounce a ball on it's nose or got a kiss from an orca again, people would care about dolphins because they're beautiful and fascinating creatures whose intelligence speaks to our own. They're amazing animals and they deserve better lives than captivity offers them.

of things. In the aquarium there was a white Beluga whale (which is I -think- a close cousin to the bottlenose dolphin) that continually swam the exact same pattern in the tank. Absolutely no deviation whatsoever...and it was the only one of his species in there. Like a caged animal pacing back and forth - I felt like screaming, the poor thing was obviously (to me) virtually insane. We watched this sad scene for about half an hour.
:grr:

Then later we saw 2 elephants chained to the ground.* They exhibited similar behavior...a constant repetition of lifting a leg as if to walk but of course they couldn't go more than a few feet. I hate to see shit like that.

* on edit: I meant chained to a post in the ground, the way I wrote it might seem as if I meant chained down -on- the ground. Not that that would be a hell of a lot worse.

There's a small zoo near here that has a wolf hybrid in alone in an enclosure that's maybe 15'x10'.

I believe they mean well, most of thier animals are rescued or captured nusiance animals that can't survive in the wild, but watching a very social animal such as a hybrid who would be happier with other canids or even a human family (care of hybrids is problematic, but it can be done by experienced people who don't expect them to behave like dogs) pace in his tiny enclosure tears my heart out.

Performing animals benefit from training. Tell you what, taking a baseball bat to an elephants head isn't much of a "benefit" to the elephant, is it? That's how circus elephants get broken, sometimes. Other times, it's more violent...or sharper.

So as to not repost something I've already stated, here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2058009&mesg_id=2058797

www.dolphinproject.org

and tell me if you still feel that capturing dolphins is enriching their lives.

One zoo somewhere didn't realize they were housing animals near vegetation that was poisonous to them. It took several of these large, beautiful animals dying before the fucking imbeciles figured out what was killing them.

lifespan of animals in captivity is several times the lifespan of animals in the wild

i don't know where "one zoo" is or if this just be an apocryphal tale but in the end, all of us are mortal, and a good zoo serves an important purpose in educating the public, people do not care abt animals that exist only on the teevee, people will not support the preservation of expensive habitat for animals that are as fictional to them as the coyote and road runner cartoon

people must contact animals, look them in the eye, realize that they have feelings even as we do, that's when people care

if your zoo is a bad zoo, fight to get it changed, we did in new orleans, our disgracefully bad zoo of the 70s became one of the usa's top 10 zoos by the 80s, it even rode out katrina triumphantly

but to throw up yr hands and say it is evil for people to be entertained or educated, i just don't get it

why is it wrong for people to be entertained, that is how people's eyes get opened to a world larger than just their own family and their own little box

I agree with those sentiments whole heartedly. Although I am more in favor of animal reserves than I am of actual zoos (unless the zoo makes effort to give a large enclosure to animals who need it. In the bronx zoo, NY, for instance, the only wolf there has a tiny 8 foot by 6 foot enclosure where its only stimulus is to be able to hope to be let out). But I agree that dispelling this whole big bad wolf nonsense that * and other republicans seem to feed off of is a huge step towards an equal life among those inhabited here.

Heck, even if we were to disagree on what makes a zoo a good zoo, I'm sure we can agree on those sentiments what is most important is to allow people to make their own conclusions on these 'boogeyman' animals idiots and cynics tend to write off as emotionless and unnecessary parts of life. That's what really matters anyway -- and I think that's a large core part of the democratic party at large. The ability to agree on a good thing than to disagree on a bad, good to see someone who makes sense on these animal issues on the DU board...

I'd love to see the backup of your first statement. Considering that elephants will live 60-70 years in the wild, they average, what, 30 in captivity (zoos, circus). Dolphins, 45 years in the wild, under 5 in captivity. Only two examples that suggest your statement is, well, nonsense.

It's not wrong for folks to be entertained by willing entertainers. That's where it becomes a problem.

When last there was verifiable data, dolphins lived shorter lives in captivity. At one time thier lives in captivity were growing closer to observed wild lifespans (no great feat considering the lack of predators in aquarium dolphin tanks, the medical care, vaccinations and vitamins) but so many captive dolphins were dying of embarassing and preventable causes (ranging from tank malfuntions to skin diseases to ingestion of trash discarded by park visitiors) that the animal park industry got the government to stop taking reports of deaths of captive sea mammals.

Now there's no verifiable data about the lives and health of captive dolphins in this country. Why the coverup if the news is good?

but I do question our need to be entertained by animals in a fashion not unlike the Roman Coliseum.

I wonder if dolphins would get a kick out of watching us catch and eat fish in our teeth? Would they be entertained by training us to act like dolphins? Or maybe they could think up some interesting tricks for us to do that would display some of our clever human nature?

It's important for us to study the animals in their natural environment preferably. And if captivity helps raise human awareness levels or can aid in restoring their population to a healthy level, then I'd say it's less of a bad thing than it could be, if we're truly respectful of their needs. But I can't help thinking the "show" element is for creating a circus-like atmosphere, and not necessary for educational purposes.

:cry:

Poor little guy. :(

I don't have a problem with zoos as long as the animals are treated humanely. I know some zoos are excellent. When I see animals that have been trained to perform it kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It just doesn't seem right to take a wild animal and make it do tricks to amuse everyone. Unless it's an animal that is very well cared for, has a great bond with it's trainer and enjoys people.
Seeing dolphins and whales in captivity is particularly heartbreaking for me for a couple of reasons. It seems to me that dolphins are mainly kept in pools and no effort is made at all to simulate the dolphins natural environment. Other animals at least get trees, rocks, grass, etc. All the dolphins I have seen are kept in fairly small pools with no kind of vegetation, rocks, etc. Also, I've read that using their sonar in such a small area is really hard on the dolphins. Thirdly, they don't get to live with their large social groups.
I think a better program for zoos would be to use their facilities as rehabilitation programs for injured or sick dolphins. The public could be allowed to view the dolphins, but not interact with them.
I feel bad for that little baby dolphin and it's mother.